411 MMA Fact or Fiction 9.02.09: UFC 102, Rogers/Fedor, WEC & MORE!
Posted by Jeremy Lambert on 09.02.2009
Was UFC 102 the best event in August? Should Randy Couture hang up the gloves? Is Fedor vs. Brett Rogers the biggest fight Strikeforce has? Should Antonio Rodrigo Nogueira face the winner of Lesnar vs. Carwin? Did Nate Marquardt turn in the best performance at UFC 102? 411's Jeffrey Harris and Scott Kuczkowski debate those topics and more in this weeks edition of 411 MMA Fact or Fiction!
UFC capped off August with UFC 102: Couture vs. Nogueira. Not only did it deliver two legends in a fight of the year candidate but it was also arguably the best event all year.
To debate the UFC 102 fallout and other topics this week we have the man who always brings The Good, points out The Bad, and isn't Ugly. Please welcome Scott Kuczkowski. His opponent is a jack of all trades, The Vile One, Jeffrey Harris.
In the words of John McCarthy…LET'S GET IT ON!
1. UFC 102 was the best event in August.
Scott Kuczkowski:FACT. UFC 101 was good, but other than Anderson Silva massacring Forrest Griffin, the event itself lacked any big finishes such as Thiago Silva knocking out Keith Jardine or Todd Duffee knocking out Tim Hague in 7 seconds. Sure, UFC 101 did have the BJ Penn/Kenny Florian title fight, something lacking on the UFC 102 card, but I think the Noguiera/Couture bout made up for the lack of a title fight. What else is there to compare UFC 102 to? M-1 Global Breakthrough? Watching Fedor have a sparring contest with the DREAM Middleweight Champion? I'll take UFC 102 every day.
Jeffrey Harris:FACT. I was at Strikeforce live, I watched UFC 101 live, and I missed M-1. All that said, I definitely agree with Scott in UFC 102 was the best. We got an amazing featured attraction main event, a heavyweight dream contest, that despite all the crap thrown about against the two opponents was totally awesome and delivered on every level. Not to mention there was a boatload of amazing finishes for UFC 102 as well, and we got 8 broadcast fights. Strikeforce ended 45 minutes early with only like 4 fights shown.
SCORE:1 for 1.
2. Fedor vs. Rogers is the biggest fight Strikeforce could book.
Scott Kuczkowski:FACT. Who else is out there? Fabricio Werdum? Does anyone out there think he wouldn't get knocked out in the first minute or two by an uppercut? Allistair Ovreem won't fight in the US because he'd get popped for using steroids if he was tested, so that pretty much leaves him out of the mix until he can cycle off of them (which may never happen). The only other choice is Bret Rogers, which I think is a pretty good fight for Fedor.
Jeffrey Harris:FACT. Honestly I agree. Overeem is too busy cycling in Europe and doing another K-1 kickboxing fight. Its absolute joke he is still the champion. Werdum hasn't had an impressive win over a good opponent in years. Rogers at this point is the most compelling and interesting fight they could do right now for Fedor. That said, I hope Rogers knocks Fedor to the stone age.
SCORE:2 for 2.
3. Randy Couture should retire.
Scott Kuczkowski:FICTION. The fight between Couture and Noguiera sticks out in my mind because I don't think Randy looked very bad as much as I think Noguiera looked very good. Nogueira's striking looked very crisp and he was able to use his size advantage throughout the fight. Both guys fought very hard and looked like they could both do 2 more rounds if needed. Randy for his part was just out struck on the feet by Big Nog and really couldn't seem to hurt Noguiera in order to set up the clinch or the takedown. Noguiera is a guy who for years has been at the top of the Heavyweight rankings, so for Randy to hang with him for 3 rounds, trade dozens of punches and avoid several submission attempts was clearly impressive. Plus there are still many fights for Randy at Light Heavyweight if he drops, to include Lyoto Machida, Anderson Silva, Rampage, and Rashad Evans.
Jeffrey Harris:FICTION. I don't think Nogueira or Couture should retire. Some guys just have bad nights like Nogeuira did, and Couture has really looked good against top of the line great fighters even when he's lost. Couture is still a draw, and even when he loses, he's still looked good IMHO. Though I think Couture should go down to light heavyweight at least once to see how he does again there.
SCORE:3 for 3.
Video Intermission
4. Antonio Rodrigo Nogueira should get the first shot at the winner of Carwin vs. Lesnar.
Jeffrey Harris:FACT. I say if you have a fight in MMA, make it. Building up fights doesn't really work. Look at Cro Cop/Couture which was spoiled by Gabriel Gonzaga. Nogueira has pretty much erased all memories of the Mir fight and now looks really good as a potential opponent for the heavyweight champion after Lesnar/Carwin. Book it Joe and Dana!
Scott Kuczkowski:FACT. I agree with Jeffrey here. The truth is that a faceoff between Noguiera and Lesnar would be huge and would answer a ton of questions about Brock's ability. Plus, who else is really out there? I'd like to see Cro Cop win a couple before he is thrown into the title mix, Junior dos Santos has to get by Cro Cop (if he can) , Velasquez has to get by Rothwell, and just about everyone else is a minimum two wins away from deserving a title shot. Noguiera earned a title shot with his win over Randy in my opinion.
SCORE:4 for 4.
5. Nate Marquardt turned in the most impressive performance at UFC 102.
Jeffrey Harris:FICTION. I thought it was an awesome performance, but I mean we know that Marquardt had that kind of power. We know he's talented. To me, I was much more impressed by Couture and Nogueira just leaving it all out for a full tilt 15 minutes. Honestly, the finish to Maia/Marquardt was not that surprising to me since I think Marquardt's striking would neutralize the BJJ of Maia. Maia can't fight in MMA with a mindset of not hurting his opponents.
Scott Kuczkowski:FICTION. Nate displayed awesome timing during his fight with Maia, but I expected him to win, just not that fast. Arguably one of the most impressive moments of his fight (and one of the things that I think makes him great) was when he stood over Maia ready to rain down punches but decided they weren't needed and instead walked away. I think it showed a lot of maturity and class because he really could have laid into Maia until the ref jumped in and stopped things if he'd wanted to. Was Marquardt impressive? Certainly. The most impressive? I don't think so.
SCORE:5 for 5.
6. Zuffa should close up WEC and merge it with UFC.
Jeffrey Harris:FICTION. I see no reason to do it right now. For starters, I think a merge with UFC/WEC would add a lot of weird complications I don't think UFC is ready to handle. And also, WEC has done a great job of establishing its own identity. Does it mean more and bigger paydays for some guys? Yes it does, but it would also mean less exposure, paydays, and face time for others. Not to mention I think the potential in women facing off in the WEC would go out the window since WEC is a place they could experiment that.
Scott Kuczkowski:FICTION: I see absolutely no reason to close WEC and merge things with the UFC. According to Dana, WEC has just signed a new agreement with Versus, which should keep them on that station for the foreseeable future. They have a TV deal, they have good fighters, and folks seem to like their product; changing things at this point seems like a potential step back instead of a step forward. And while the UFC has mentioned they would like to introduce divisions for the smaller weight classes, until they do the WEC is the only place for those fighters to showcase their talents.
SCORE:6 for 6.
Jeffrey and Scott obviously have a lot of respect for each other and are two of the classiest individuals on the site.
Come back next week as two more MMA writers debate the latest happenings in the MMA world in Fact or Fiction.
I'm with you guys all the way to the last one. I definitely think the UFC should absorb the WEC. Those fighters deserve the money that would come their way by working in bigger arenas with more exposure (and better advertising dollars).
I also think the UFC will need them as it moves forward with more PPVs and gets a network TV deal. They will need more title fights and a bigger variety. They will also need the lighter weight fighters in the UFC as they spread in some areas overseas.
And frankly, there are a lot of casual fans or curious spectators that know what the UFC brand is and have no idea what WEC is.
Posted By: Jeremy S (Registered) on September 02, 2009 at 12:22 AM
if Werdum hasn't had an impressive win in years and isn't good enough to face Fedor, then why is it okay for Carwin to get a title shot off of beating Gonzaga (who Werdum has out-classed twice).
Posted By: Guest#5900 (Guest) on September 02, 2009 at 12:27 AM
There is no reason to merge the UFC & WEC. I think you move the lighter weight classes over to the UFC and let the WEC be the proving ground to get to the UFC. There are plenty of good fighters out there, and the WEC being the second tier would still provide tons of entertaining fights.
Posted By: ZUFFAfan (Guest) on September 02, 2009 at 01:20 AM
what ZUFFAfan said would work pretty well too... I could see that working, keeping a second tier out there for the zuffa to play with and still giving the UFC all the advantages I mentioned by adding the WEC weight classes.
Posted By: Jeremy S (Guest) on September 02, 2009 at 02:20 AM
merging would not be a good step at all - you have two strong products. What might be a good idea is to have a WEC exhibition fight on UFC, potentially on a fight night here and there. Use UFC to give the little guys a bit of exposure so people will start knowing about them
Posted By: Guest#9007 (Guest) on September 02, 2009 at 10:28 AM
Ideally in a perfect world Nog should have to win once more to get a shot at Brock. Circumstances or not he did get destroyed by Mir two fights ago, and outside of this last performance has not been overly impressive in the octagon.Reality being what it is though you guys are right, and he probably will be next in line.Personally I would have waited a little bit and had Velazquez fight the winner of Nog and Randy. That would have provided and simultaneously built up a logical challenger, but what's done is done.
Posted By: gbh1978 (Guest) on September 02, 2009 at 11:12 AM
Agree with Guest5900, the UFC Heavyweight division is POTENTIALLY very interesting, but for the strongest HW division in the world, Carwin is the best immediate opponent for Brock?!
Okay, now you can add Nog to the equation, but according to UFC fans everywhere, he wasn't as good as Couture (until he easily beat him). Duffee, Velasquez, these guys are down the road hopes, but man...
Fedor/Rogers/Overeem/Werdum is as good as Brock/Carwin/Nog/Mir, IMO. The only one letting the Strikeforce side down is Overeem. Hell, Werdum was the number one contender until he got beat by Junior dos Santos, who nobody had even heard of.
UFC hype train? Tripe train more like.
Posted By: Jon (Guest) on September 02, 2009 at 11:35 AM
Okay, I am lost. Why is there all of this talk of WEC being sucked up by the UFC? Is it solely because of the Versus vs. Direct TV thing?
Posted By: Todd Vote (Guest) on September 02, 2009 at 12:12 PM
They shouldn't merge WEC and UFC because its better having more MMA shows.
Posted By: Guest (Guest) on September 02, 2009 at 02:59 PM
Man, I really wish you guys would do some research before you make asinine allegations.
Scott, do you have any proof Alistair is on roids? No, you don't. He has fought in the US before, where he beat Paul Buentello, and guess what? He tested clean.
Jeffrey, do you know why Alistair took a fight in K1? It's because Scott Coker did not want anyone to fight for the title yet, especially Fedor. They are trying to set up Overeem vs. the winner of Rogers/Fedor.
Posted By: sprawlandbrawl (Guest) on September 02, 2009 at 03:46 PM
Actually, as of the other day there is a VERY GOOD reason for UFC to merge WEC with them: DirecTV is no longer carrying Versus network, meaning that there are now apprx 20 million potential viewers that no longer have any way to watch WEC events.
Posted By: somecoolname (Guest) on September 02, 2009 at 06:21 PM
"Man, I really wish you guys would do some research before you make asinine allegations. "
Posted By: sprawlandbrawl (Guest) on September 02, 2009 at 03:46 PM
Do you not realize these are opinions?
Posted By: Kuch7 (Registered) on September 02, 2009 at 08:04 PM
Overeem accepted a fight with K-1 right after he dropped out of a title bout with Fabricio Werdum due to his "hand injury."
Posted By: Jeffrey (Registered) on September 02, 2009 at 08:09 PM
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