411 MMA Fact or Fiction 9.09.09: Lesnar/Carwin, Strikeforce, Hughes Future & MORE!
Posted by Jeremy Lambert on 09.09.2009
Is Brock Lesnar vs. Shane Carwin the most anticipated fight left in 2009? Has Strikeforce properly promoted their Fedor vs. Rogers event? Should Dana White be mad at Quinton Jackson for doing a movie? 411 MMA columnists Adam Tool and Larry Csonka debate those topics and more in this week's edition of 411 MMA Fact or Fiction.
In what is rare nowadays, there were no major shows this past weekend and no major show this upcoming weekend. Don't get used to that. There was however plenty of news over the past week.
To debate the latest news this week we have a man who is a Dexter fan yet always leaves Blood On The Mat. Please welcome Adam Tool. His opponent needs no introduction but I'll give him one anyway. He is the man, the myth, the legend, the boss, THE Larry Csonka.
In the words of John McCarthy…LET'S GET IT ON!
1. Of all the fights confirmed/rumored for the rest of 09, you're most interested in Carwin vs. Lesnar.
Adam Tool:FACT. I could say fiction and instead pick some bout with less star power in order to prove my worth as a pseudo-journalist, but I can't argue with the appeal of seeing two big dudes beat the crap out of each other. It is entirely possible that Carwin presents the toughest obstacle yet in Lesnar's path of domination, but with the way Brock has looked in each successive fight it's hard to pick against him. I can't wait for Lyoto Machida vs. Shogun Rua, and I'm also really psyched for Mike Brown vs. Jose Aldo, but Lesnar vs. Carwin is the fight that's going to get the most attention for the rest of 2009.
Larry Csonka:FICTION. I was going to answer fiction if Rampage and Rashad were still fighting, but since Rampage decided to dick the UFC for The A-Team, I almost said FACT. While I love Brock (no homo) I have to go with Rogers vs. Fedor as the fight I want to see. Not because of Fedor, or because of M-1 or because of Strikeforce, but because of Brett Rogers. I will discuss this more in the next question, but I want to see that fight a lot now…
SCORE:0 for 1.
2. With no official date, venue, or confirmed fights; you feel Strikeforce has dropped in the ball promoting Fedor vs. Rogers.
Adam Tool:FACT. At the very least, looking at their efforts so far it's a big pile of failure. As the question itself states, we know nothing about when and where this fight will take place. Are there any other compelling match-ups on the card? Will Scott Coker come to his senses, realize that Overeem isn't coming back, and vacate the heavyweight title to have Fedor and Rogers fight for it? Here's my last question: if you're not reading the MMA websites and following the sport closely, is there any reason for you to care about this fight over the other big heavyweight showdown in November?
Larry Csonka:FACT. Strikeforce, Fedor, M-1, Scott Coker and Showtime have failed epically in the promotion of this fight. Some 30-second videos on Showtime or a Fedor media day that went over like a fart in church do not a fight make. The ONLY one that gets the game is Brett Rogers. The guy is talking to anyone that will listen, and he is doing his best to make people want to see the fight. He claims he will put Fedor to sleep, he makes a great point about the cage being a different animal, and he proclaims that when he beats Fedor that not only does that make him the best, but that it makes him an MMA GOD! THIS GUY GETS IT. Some of the "hardcore MMA fans" hate this "PRO RASSLIN" type stuff, but the fact is that this sells fights. It worked BIG TIME for UFC 100, and while Strikeforce won't do huge business, especially since they have dropped the ball big time, Brett Rogers gets it. More and more I hope he wins, just to see the Internet explode.
SCORE:1 for 2.
3. Martin Kampmann should still get a Welterweight title shot if he defeats Paul Daley.
Adam Tool:FICTION. However I do see the upside to Kampmann scoring the win at UFC 103, as I feel he needs further building up at welterweight if we're to possibly take him serious as a contender for GSP. Swick still deserves his shot at contendership as well, and I'd still like to see what has the potential to be an awesome fight if/when it's rescheduled. GSP is out for a little while anyways, so let's not throw out the Swick/Kampmann match-up just yet. Although in this sport it's also possible that Daley could play spoiler and throw everything out of whack. I think Kampmann wins this fight, and hopefully meets up with a fully-healed Swick sometime in early 2010 before the winner has the honor of being utterly demolished by Georges St. Pierre.
Larry Csonka:FACT. I will have to go fact here. Outside of Kampmann and Swick, I don't see any real contenders right now. If Kampmann gets the win, I see no issue with making the fight with GSP, while Swick can face someone else and if he wins, he becomes the next contender after that. GSP is rumored to be back in early 2010. Setting Kampmann as he first contender and Swick as the man to face the winner of that (if Kampmann and Swick both win fights) sets the next fights, and hopefully allows time for a new contender to rise through the ranks.
4. Should they eventually fight, you favor Dan Henderson to defeat Nate Marquardt.
Larry Csonka:FACT. Good question, good question, one that made me really think here. Nate Marquardt is 29-8-2, while Dan Henderson is 25-7. They both have a ton of experience, and have both lost to Anderson Silva, which is the fight both want to get back too. I think when it comes down to it, I have to go with Hollywood Dan here, I feel he has faced tougher competition and while both have looked good recently, my gut tells me that HENDO takes the win if, and likely when they face off. I know that your gut isn't always the best way to pick things, but I just have the feeling.
Adam Tool:FACT. I don't see why not. Marquardt has quicker hands but Henderson has to have the edge in power. Marquardt's dangerous as hell on the ground, but Henderson is impossible as hell to get there. Look at their performances against Silva. Marquardt was flattened in the opening frame while Henderson was able to at least win the first round. As Larry pointed out, experience isn't really a factor unless you count "big fight" experience (again, advantage Hendo). I want to see this fight so we can get ourselves a true #1 contender, and if it happens it will be Henderson that wins it.
SCORE:2 for 4.
5. Dana White has every reason to be upset at Quinton Jackson for taking the A-Team movie role.
Larry Csonka:FACT. I discussed this in the MMA 3R's yesterday, I do agree, Dana should be PISSED about this, and here is why. Rampage decided that he wanted to do the Ultimate Fighter again, because SPIKE loves him and he wants to make bank. Dana agrees, pairs him with Rashad as a coach and they are off and running. The Ultimate Fighter then becomes a 12-week or so hype special for Rashad vs. Rampage, which was to culminate at UFC 107. Dana also books the event in Memphis, RAMPAGE TERRITORY. So they make the fight, they have the perfect vehicle to push the fight, they are running into a new market with Rampage as the lead and look to do BIG BUSINESS. And then, Rampage essentially tells the company to screw off because of a movie role. Yes, he has every right to be upset. Yes Rampage doing the movie will get the UFC some press, and I have nothing against a guy making money, but he really did the promotion wrong here. While Rampage vs. Rashad will do fine when they eventually run it, it won't do nearly the money it would have in December.
Adam Tool:FACT. Larry already hit all the main reasons why this is true, so allow me to sum things up. Number of dollars UFC 107 with Jackson vs. Evans would have put into Dana White's pockets: approximately one shitload. Number of dollars the new A-Team movie puts into Dana White's pockets: exactly squat. Wouldn't you be mad too?
SCORE:3 for 5.
6. You think Matt Hughes will retire in the middle of his new contract before Randy Couture.
Larry Csonka:FICTION. This again was a hard one to answer, but I will go fiction this time around. To me, Matt Hughes seems like a very egotistical individual, no insult intended, but that is how I see him. The man seems like he has one goal, and that is to constantly prove himself. He seems to think that he is the best, and has even discussed the idea of moving up to Middleweight. He even said that this is likely his last contract, and I just cannot see him quitting in the middle of it, outside of a devastating injury. I think Hughes has a lot of fight left in him, not necessarily wins, but fights…
Adam Tool:FACT. Randy has the bonus of being arguably the most popular fighter in the company's history. As a result, he's still going to have big paydays and main event slots regardless of whether he's fighting for a title. Hughes, on the other hand, has seen his star power diminished in recent years follow his two embarrassing losses to St. Pierre. Then there was the destruction by Alves, and a less than impressive performances against Serra earlier this year. Hughes is also stuck in a division with a lot of hungry young fighters, all eager and ready to make their name off of the former longtime champ. Depending on the fights he gets over the course of his new contract, Hughes could face a murderer's row of potential contenders. A tough losing streak is enough to make someone like Hughes consider giving it up and walking away with his head held (a little) high. Meanwhile Couture's W/L record is meaningless at this point and the effects of time have stopped working against him long ago.
SCORE:3 for 6.
Adam and Larry split things down the middle. You know the saying, the money is in the rematch.
Come back next week as two more MMA writers preview UFC 103 and debate the latest happenings in the MMA world.
Martin Kampmann, though has a great record... i dont think should get a title shot if he wins.. i think swick was one of the top guys in the division and it should of been determined by him.. (awesome hes fighting hughes).. anyway.. if kampmann couldn't get by Nate the great, he aint putting much of a fight versus GSP
Posted By: wylun (Guest) on September 08, 2009 at 11:32 PM
1) FICTION. I'm with Larry on this one waiting for Fedor-Rogers. Most especially if it happens in my neck of the woods and I can be there live.
2) FICTION. Especially since all the promo material has already been shot. Look for features with Fedor wearing a giant cross and pulling an empty train in an abandoned train station.
3) FACT. Kampmann is a big welterweight with great power and showed a better ground game than anyone knew he had against Carlos Condit. He's also exciting to watch and there's really no other match up as appealing.
4) FICTION. If Nate was the same guy that fought Anderson I'd say fact. But his striking is too technical and His ground game is extremely well rounded. He's just too much at this point for Dan IMO.
5) FICTION. Never advertise something unless its on paper. Thats promotion 101 and Dana knows that. I don't care about Dana pulling Rampage's ass out of his legal problems, Dana's the one who screwed up here.
6) FICTION. Hughes is a lot of things, but one thing he isn't is a quitter. He also isn't going to use his deal to leverage for more money due to bad business decisions and divorces like Randy did.
Posted By: Patrick Mullin (Registered) on September 08, 2009 at 11:54 PM
You're being way to hard on Rampage guys. This film is a once in a lifetime oppurtunity that I cannot fault him for taking. It could potentialy give the UFC a star that could exponentialy surpass Lesnar in terms of marketability, there. by increasing their fanbase. I know the timing sucks and it gums up the works but there is a bigger picture to consider. Perhaps that's why Dana hasn't opened that legendary trap of his on the subject yet?
Posted By: gbh1978 (Guest) on September 09, 2009 at 12:33 AM
Mr. Csonka, sorry to shatter your dream of Rogers beating Fedor, it ain't happening. Go home and cry now.
Posted By: Guest#7910 (Guest) on September 09, 2009 at 12:35 AM
Less Adam Tool more Jeffery "The Vile One" Harris
Posted By: Peezy! (Guest) on September 09, 2009 at 12:37 AM
Should Dana be mad at Rampage? Sure.
Should Rampage do the movie? Absolutley.
Will the extra eposure lead to more buys on Rampage's ppvs? Indeed it will.
Will Dana realize this and get over it? Do I even need to answer this?
Posted By: AdamS (Guest) on September 09, 2009 at 01:14 AM
"You're being way to hard on Rampage guys. This film is a once in a lifetime oppurtunity that I cannot fault him for taking. It could potentialy give the UFC a star that could exponentialy surpass Lesnar in terms of marketability, there. by increasing their fanbase. I know the timing sucks and it gums up the works but there is a bigger picture to consider. Perhaps that's why Dana hasn't opened that legendary trap of his on the subject yet? "
Exactly.
A. Star in a major motion picture (possible franchise) with Liam Neeson and Bradley Cooper and make a lot of money in the process.
or
B. Go through weeks of grueling training to get his face punched repeatedly by a couple of big meaty fists for 75% less money.
It's really easy to rip the guy and act offended behind your keyboard. I'd like to see what the haters would do given the same choice.
Posted By: lethargic (Guest) on September 09, 2009 at 01:18 AM
I do love the “come out from behind the keyboard” bullshit. He made a commitment, they invested in him via TUF, and he screwed them over. I like Rampage, one of my favorite fighters, but I feel he did the company wrong.
And for those that think the film will automatically increase buys, that is not a guarantee. Also, there is no guarantee that months later that they will do the same buy rate. The UFC was hoping for 1-millions buys due to the build of what is supposed to b a great if not the BEST TUF season ever due to Rashad and Rampage’s interaction, and that is ruined.
Thanks for reading all.
Posted By: The King of 411~! (Registered) on September 09, 2009 at 01:24 AM
The only reason Dana won't fire me is cuz he know I'll go to Scott Cocker and get paid bookoo money, dawg. UFC need me
Posted By: Rampage (Guest) on September 09, 2009 at 06:44 AM
Rogers/Fedor? Really??? Rogers is gonna get destroyed, he's essentially Sokoudjou Pt II, making his name off a flash KO without actually being tested against a top fighter in a more drawn out fight.
Nobody will want to watch Kampmann/GSP. Swick at least offers a different variable in his length, whereas Kampmann doesn't even have the KO power to pull a Matt Serra.
Marquardt will outclass Dan on the feet all day. Dan is not a technical striker, and swinging for the fences won't work against Marquardt like it does against Wand or Bisping. But it sounds like this fight won't happen anyways.
I'd rather see Rampage fight Evans than watch him probably drag down a movie with his acting. I can't believe a Hollywood studio thought it was a good idea to cast him as a lead in a 100 million dollar movie with his erratic behavior. Obviously it was a good move for Rampage, even if it wasn't for the rest of the world.
Posted By: Steve (Guest) on September 09, 2009 at 07:06 AM
Adam Tool needs to be a permanent fixture on every Fact or Fiction... best columnist at 411.
Posted By: Dragon (Guest) on September 09, 2009 at 07:51 AM
ok fuck rampage. He did the company dirty that simple. People keep saying he will give them another name to market beside Brock. At least Brock isn't on 800 youtube videos cussing at people or calling them fat or basically living up to every gutter trash "thug" image. Honestly what shows could rampage do to promote the movie? The one with the quickest censor. I honestly see him getting kicked off the movie. You have Liam Neeson in the film. Do you think he and Rampage are going to get along? Rampage is gonna wind up in someones face saying something stupid and one of the higher ups in production or the movie will say get him off this damn set. God forbid he has another incident and then he is gone from the movie. Then Dana is out of a super fight and publicity for the film/ufc. You people keep looking at the situations and how they might work in either ors favor. Look at the people in the situation too. Oh and Fedor gets dropped in two. Peace
Posted By: x-0816 (Guest) on September 09, 2009 at 09:13 AM
Fair enough, reasonable people can disagree.It just sounds to me that this incredible oppurtunity came after TUF was filmed and the fight was set, putting him in this tricky spot. Let's just see how the situation plays out.
Btw.. I came out from my keyboard once, its rough out there! I don't like the look of those teenagers :)
Posted By: gbh1978 (Guest) on September 09, 2009 at 10:01 AM
I'm registered, yet my comments still appear under the guest banner. That sucks.
Posted By: gbh1978 (Guest) on September 09, 2009 at 10:43 AM
Strikeforce isn't promoting the Fedor fight yet because they know UFC will counter program it. Make UFC book a PPV first so Dana can't put a live PPV up against the Fedor fight. It is smart, as long as they do it properly and don't wait too long.
And yes Dana should be pissed that Rampage fucked off, but he shouldn't do interviews and video blogs about it. The only thing Rampage did wrong was sign for the movie before his fight. If he did this without causing the Rashad fight to be cancelled then Dana would be promoting the hell out of it.
Posted By: Shawno420 (Guest) on September 09, 2009 at 11:37 AM
Go to Sho.com, and you wouldn't even know they promote MMA fights, let alone the best fighter alive. Maybe it'll be in Moscow.
As far as Rampage goes: good for him, good for the sport. The fact remains, UFC still needs the mainstream more than the mainstream needs UFC.
Posted By: Jon (Guest) on September 09, 2009 at 12:29 PM
B. Go through weeks of grueling training to get his face punched repeatedly by a couple of big meaty fists for 75% less money.
Posted By: lethargic (Guest) on September 09, 2009 at 01:18 AM
_______________________________________
Not even close. Rampage would stand to make MUCH more money if he were to fight in December then he will from being in the movie.
The reported salaries don't include his bonuses, sponsors, or - most importantly - the percentage of the PPV revenue that he makes.
Posted By: cyks (Guest) on September 09, 2009 at 01:01 PM
Did Dana not get the fight agreement signed as soon as both guys signed on for TUF 10? If he didn't then it's his own fault. Rampage may have done the UFC dirty, but I see it helping them in the long run. Put Rampage in a main event the weekend the movie opens... or hell the week before it opens, and I would say there is a chance that it could exceed the buys they were expecting from the two fighting in December. Just one guys opinion.
Posted By: Todd Vote (Registered) on September 09, 2009 at 04:33 PM
people are defending Rampage based on the assumption that the A-Team movie makes a lot of money. Even if the UFC gets behind it and promotes it it could still bomb. What if the movie bomobs? Then will everyone agree that Rampage stuck it to the company that made him a household name?
Posted By: Guest Guest (Guest) on September 09, 2009 at 05:32 PM
Guest Guest Guest...you entire presumtion is absed on something that is more or less impossible. The A-Team wont bomb..period.
Posted By: AdamS (Guest) on September 10, 2009 at 12:38 AM
Shortly, right after UFC 100... The mayoraty of MMA fans’, was saying "How great it would be to see Lesnar take on Carwin” because they both have a wrestling background, and almost the same weight frame, it would be more on par, But “we have to wait for him to go Thought Velazquez, if he win’s , First, so we can have that match”, then the UFC decides to scrap the Carwin-Velasquez encounter, to go directly to the Lesnar – Carwin, and now everybody is bitching on the fact that it’s taking place to soon!... Dammit! Stop the bitching, and enjoy the show... Every one was going Ape Shit, when a certain “Silva vs. Griffin” match was going to take place, because “Griffin is the best matchup for Mr. Pound 4 pound, to have. So he would get push to he’s limit’s…
Remember the outcome... Griffin was the easiest’ fight Silva has ever won in the UFC! Maybe Carwin can pull of a “Surprise”, maybe he can do what Griffin was suppose to do… push Lesnar to his limit’s… Win, Lose or Draw!
Posted By: Fear_Inc. (Guest) on September 17, 2009 at 09:09 PM
Copyright � 2011 411mania.com, LLC. All rights reserved.
Click here for our privacy policy. Please help us serve you better, fill out our survey.
Use of this site signifies your agreement to our terms of use.
