411 MMA Fact or Fiction 10.07.09: Kimbo's UFC Future, Lashley/Werdum, WEC 43 & MORE!
Posted by Jeremy Lambert on 10.07.2009
Will Kimbo Slice make it three fights in the UFC? Should Bobby Lashley be favored against Fabricio Werdum? Would Herschel Walker last one round against anyone on TUF 10? Would Rashad Evans losing to Thiago Silva hurt your interest in Evans vs. Jackson? 411's Samer Kadi and Jonathan Solomon debate those topics and more in this week's edition of 411 MMA Fact or Fiction!
It's a slow October with only one major show but there's still plenty to talk about as Kimbo Slice lost last week on TUF, there's a mystery WEC event this weekend, and DREAM is going American.
To debate those topics and more we have the man who always gets his hooks in, ready to sink in the Rear Naked Column, please welcome Samer Kadi. His opponent is a Juggernaut in the MMA world. He is Jonathan Solomon.
In the words of John McCarthy…LET'S GET IT ON!
1. Kimbo Slice won't make it to three fights in the UFC.
Samer Kadi:FICTION. By all accounts, Kimbo will be fighting on the TUF 10 finale in December. I think the UFC will be smart enough to match him up with one of the weaker links on the show, likely someone with no ground game that Kimbo could knock out early. A win would pretty much guarantee Kimbo at least two more fights with the company, as even if he were to lose his next fight, he would be 1-1 in the UFC and his third fight would decide his future.
Jonathan Solomon:FICTION. He's Kimbo Slice, one of the proven legit television draws in the sport. I doubt the UFC will protect him but why cut him before he can fight three more times? It's not like they will want to throw a bone over to Strikeforce (who would snatch him up in a heartbeat) these days. Remember, Kimbo is just 3-1 as a professional fighter. Expectations for him are not the same as they may be for other younger fighters in terms of experience. The UFC will keep him around as long as they feasibly can because right now, Kimbo = money.
SCORE:1 for 1.
2. Herschel Walker wouldn't last one round against anyone on TUF 10.
Samer Kadi:FICTION. A 47 year old retired NFL player going a full round with a professional Mixed Martial Artist? Sounds like a no-no right? Well, unless you've watched some of the fights on TUF 10. Honestly, I don't know much about Walker's shape at this point in his life, but it can't be a lot worse than Wes Shivers right? The guy was gassed two minutes (and that's being generous) into his fight with McSweeney. I believe Strikeforce's signing of Walker is completely ridiculous, but some of the guys on TUF this season are an absolute embarrassment –Wes Shivers being one– and I can see Walker lasting a round with him.
Jonathan Solomon:FICTION. Walker may be 47-years old and a retired pro football player but the man has to be in great shape considering all the punishment he has put himself through on the field. He was/is known for keeping in shape, even in recent years. He is a sixth degree black belt in taekwondo and while that may not as effective a discipline in MMA, he has some training so it's not like he's walking directly off the field into MMA. The cast of TUF 10 is varied. Obviously, Roy Nelson would likely take him out ASAP. However there is one, maybe two fighters who have not fought professionally. Can Walker defend a takedown from a strong wrestler? Who knows, but I'd give him the benefit of the doubt and say he can last five minutes. Hell, I'm still trying to figure out what Abe Wagner's specialty is.
SCORE:2 for 2.
3. DREAM should use the cage full time or not at all.
Samer Kadi:FACT. To be honest, I don't mind them using the cage for one show only that much, especially with their new partnership with Strikeforce. But, as witnessed in the past three years or so, the cage could significantly affect a fighter's performance if he's not used to it, and if you're going to utilize it, you need to do it full time so that your fighters could adapt. Instead, having them fight in a cage just once then switching back to the ring full time doesn't make a lot of sense, especially in a sport where every fight counts and a single loss (or win) could change your entire career. And I do wish DREAM would switch to the cage once and for all. MMA belongs in a cage in my opinion. I was a huge PRIDE fan, but it was very frustrating at times to see the ground action continuously interrupted because of a fighter almost falling completely out.
Jonathan Solomon:FICTION. This is Japan, every fight does not count (like it does in the U.S.) as much as others. Fighters who may lose a fight are not knocked down th proverbial ladder like they are in the UFC. It would be hard for some of the fighters if DREAM switches between cage/ring for every other show. However if it is an experiment for a couple shows per year, why not? Let them use it once/twice and see what all the fuss is about. While there are negatives of fighting in a ring, I enjoy watching it because it is just plain different from everything we see in America. There is something to be said for originality in that sense.
SCORE:2 for 3.
Video Intermission
4. You didn't know WEC 43 was this weekend.
Jonathan Solomon:FICTION. Sure there is no mega main event on the show but it's still WEC where you know your in line for a great show. Here there was some confusion since this show was rescheduled from September and Youngstown, Ohio, but I have been anticipating the Cerrone/Henderson match up since they confirmed it months ago. Those with DirecTV may be in the dark but they can always follow 411mania's coverage, and that's not a bad thing at all.
4. Samer Kadi:FICTION. But only because of the magical world of internet. The fact is, there is virtually no hype surrounding the event. To be fair, it is somewhat understandable given that none of the WEC's top stars are fighting on the show but at the end of the day, it's your job to hype your own shows. Many are in the dark about this since the card doesn't feature the likes of Brown, Faber or Torres, but like Jon said, the WEC always delivers and the Cerrone-Henderson fight could end up being all kinds of awesome so for that alone people should tune in.
SCORE:3 for 4.
5. Rashad Evans losing to Thiago Silva would hurt your interest in Evans vs. Jackson.
Jonathan Solomon:FICTION. While Evans/Jackson would currently be a fight between the #2 and #3 light heavyweights, the big draw of the fight is the feud. Rampage dislikes Rashad Evans and vice versa. After two or three more months of watching them banter back and forth on Spike TV, this will be one of the fights people want to see more than most others that are scheduled. If Rashad loses to Thiago Silva, it just creates another challenger for the championship. Besides, Silva going for revenge against Lyoto Machida is an interesting storyline. Meanwhile (if Silva wins), should Rampage return, his feud with Rashad only grows since Evans' chance at a title shot was screwed up due to Rampage's decision to leave.
5. Samer Kadi:FACT. While Jon raises some good points, the statement doesn't read "Rashad losing to Silva would KILL your interest in Rampage/Evans". This is a fight I want to see for their feud alone regardless of where they stand in the division, but Rashad losing to Silva would certainly hurt my interest in a potential match up with Rampage as Evans would be coming off two straight losses. The Rashad/Rampage match up should put the winner in contention for the title and would settle a year long feud, from the staredown after the Jardine fight to this season of TUF, but Evans losing to Silva goes a long way in ruining that.
SCORE:3 for 5.
6. You would favor Bobby Lashley against Fabricio Werdum should they fight.
Jonathan Solomon:FICTION. All of Werdum's losses (besides the Dos Santos KO) have come by way of decision. Can Lashley last all of fifteen minutes without being submitted? I think it's safe to say Lashley would take the fight to the ground as soon as he feels Werdum is getting the upper hand standing. Werdum is an accomplished grappler and a BJJ black belt. Lashley is a behemoth but he's still new to the sport. I would give Lashley a hell of a chance to win because of his power, speed and wrestling, but I could not favor him over Werdum right now. Hell, isn't he wrestling with TNA these days? That connection alone may damn him when it comes to correcting the ebb and flow of the world.
6. Samer Kadi:FICTION. And I would be REALLY surprised if Lashley pulls it off. Lashley is the better wrestler by far, but does he want to be on the ground with this year's ADCC champion? Lashley hasn't been doing this long enough to avoid Werdum's submissions and I doubt his striking is above Werdum's so I think Bobby is in for a long night if he's going to fight "Vai Cavalo". Werdum has been on a lot of people's hate list since the Dos Santos fight but he remains a man who's beaten the likes of Aleksander Emelianenko, Brandon Vera, Gabriel Gonzaga and Alistair Overeem. I think Brock Lesnar has spoiled us as we now expect any up and comer to tear through top competition. Give Lashley some time, I don't believe he's ready for someone like Werdum yet.
SCORE:4 for 6.
Samer and Jonathan agree more often than not, which means they are not enemies and are instead searching for the innerme.
Kimbo Slice is a bitch! Fighting in a Burger King parking lot is way different than fighting trained professionals. He should go back to being a chaffeur in porn flicks.
Posted By: The Fett (Guest) on October 07, 2009 at 02:33 AM
1 - Fiction. Kimbo will fight in the UFC for as long as he wants. Too much money to be made to let him go.
2 - Fiction. I haven't seen him fight. I really have no idea. He might not win a fight, but I'm pretty sure he could last a round with McSweeney.
3 - Fiction. I don't really care what they do. But if they want to use am octagon type structure, I suggest they use a 6 sided cage/ring that is made up of 3 sides rope and 3 sides cage.
4 - Fact. Not a card I care about. No fights I want to bet on. I knew it was coming up soon, but was unsure of the exact date. This isn't the norm though, I'm usually just as excited for a WEC card as I am for a DREAM card.
5 - Fiction. Even if he does lose, which he won't, I'd still be as excited for a Rampage/Rashad fight as I've ever been. I wasn't all that pumped when it was announced, but seeing them go back and forth on TUF and reading their internet trash talk sold me. Plus, I'm always excited to see a Rampage fight, there's always the chance that he'll lose and do something stupid afterward.
6. Fiction. Werdum sucks. But has a great ground game. Lashley is too green to do much of anything but take him down and get subbed. There's a chance that he could catch Werdum early with a big shot, but it's unlikely.
Posted By: dale (Guest) on October 07, 2009 at 03:45 AM
"Hell, isn't he wrestling with TNA these days? That connection alone may damn him when it comes to correcting the ebb and flow of the world."
Hows that exactly? What does wrestling in TNA have to do with his chances agains Werdum exactly?
Posted By: Todd Vote (Registered) on October 07, 2009 at 09:59 AM
I think the problem with Kimbo Slice is that he's a proven draw, he's just a poor fighter, particularly at this level. He's essentially lost to Petruzelli and Roy Nelson, two guys who just aren't anywhere near the top of the game. It's a shame really, because he'd probably have beaten Shamrock, and the mystique would still have been there even if EliteXC had still closed. But who exactly is Kimbo going to beat? Putting him against a weaker competitor may drag out the ratings, but it won't do anything for Kimbo's reputation in any serious sense, and then as soon as he's in against a half-rounded fighter, he's toast. I've seen poor ground defence before, and often said "he's got none", but in Kimbo's case, he REALLY had none. As soon as he hit the mat he kinda got paralyzed, had no strength, and couldn't do anything, even move, defend, try and block, ANYTHING. Horrible.
And we already know his chin is suspect.
Kimbo is probably worth trying to keep for RATINGS ONLY, but unless the guy shows some serious, frightening improvement, he's just a novelty freakshow fighter.
Posted By: Jon (Guest) on October 07, 2009 at 10:04 AM
1. What Dale said, plus he needs to find a GOOD team. don't know who he's with now, but it's not working...Nelson put him down and he flopped around like a fish.
2. Fiction - If mcSweeney was Rashad's golden boy then Walker could go a full 3 with all them dudes....
3. DREAM is the shit. The ring IS SHIT. All it does is break up the action and eat up time on the clock. Production wise DREAM kills the UFC/Strikeforce. Great shows and great fights even if the fighters aren't the best in the world by polls
4. Knew about it. Not as excited as other WEC shows, but it's not like they promoted it. Good job Zuffa.
5. Fiction - Always excited for a Rampage fight. People get KTFO!
6. Fiction - Too soon. Lashley doesn't look great standing or on the ground. Besides he hasn't fought anyone with real skill yet. I say throw his big ass to the wolves...
When will everyone forget that pro-wrestling and MMA have nothing to do with each other? If he's getting a few mill to fake fight then hey gotta provide for the fam...he will still be a great MMA'er eventually.
Remember Shamrock did it too!
Posted By: MadLiberator (Guest) on October 07, 2009 at 11:03 AM
I think the problem with Kimbo Slice is that he's a proven draw, he's just a poor fighter, particularly at this level. He's essentially lost to Petruzelli and Roy Nelson, two guys who just aren't anywhere near the top of the game.
I've seen poor ground defence before, and often said "he's got none", but in Kimbo's case, he REALLY had none. As soon as he hit the mat he kinda got paralyzed, had no strength, and couldn't do anything, even move, defend, try and block, ANYTHING. Horrible.
Posted By: Jon (Guest) on October 07, 2009 at 10:04 AM
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While I won't say much for Seth, before his loss to Arlovski, Roy was ranked within the top 15 and would still crack the top 20-25... not a bad opponent for someone who's only had 4 pro fights.
Let's also not forget/ ignore that Roy had little problem manhandling Andriei on the ground.
Roy has a blackbelt under Renzo Gracie... he's going to be better on the ground then most HW's- and have no problem making everyone look that much worse in the process.
The only thing we learned about Kimbo's ground game is that he can't compete with an upper level BJJ black belt... but considering there are probably only 5 or so HW's out there that could, that shouldn't hold much weight against Kimbo.
Posted By: cyks (Guest) on October 07, 2009 at 12:50 PM
I doubt well ever see Kimbo in title contention, but with some takedown defence, a rudimentary ground game and perhaps some more technique in his stand up and Octagon-sense (signing with a good camp would help) he'll be more than good enough to pad out a PPV or help boost the ratings for a Fight Night.
Or book him against mega-cans and manufacture a win streak, then pit him against Lesnar for the title and count the money....
Posted By: chris.crowing (Registered) on October 07, 2009 at 03:14 PM
FICTION: Dana White is a bitch for signing this over rated trash. Dana talks about Strikeforce singing old has-beens celebrities like Walker, yet signs old never-wases like Kimbo. He talks about the difference between a street fighter and an MMA professional, yet Kimbo is only a fighter who beats up old dudes and drug addicts half his size, not a “MIX” martial artist. KImbo will get the Junie Brown treatment and lose twice on the show. Win a freebe in TUF 10 Finale. Then lose three straight fights.
Posted By: THE TRUTH (Guest) on October 07, 2009 at 04:29 PM
When will everyone forget that pro-wrestling and MMA have nothing to do with each other? If he's getting a few mill to fake fight then hey gotta provide for the fam...he will still be a great MMA'er eventually.
Remember Shamrock did it too!
With all due respect Pro-Wrestling has a whole lot to do with MMA...Although WWE and TNA are scripted sports, the athleticism that is demonstrated is downright brutal...These guys wrestle 200-300 days a year...The empact on their bodies from slams to suplexes and everything else that goes with it takes an incredble tole on their simple ability to be able to indure that kind of punishment is simply amazing...Legitimate injuries thru the years prove that, it's that simple...
The training that goes on in MMA to prepare for just one fight is the difference here, but then again these fighters only compete 2-3 times yearly, if that..check out http://www.honesternie.blogspot.com for some insight...
Posted By: former Pro-Wrestler (Guest) on October 17, 2009 at 04:21 PM
