411 MMA Fact or Fiction 10.14.09: Ortiz/Griffin 2, Cerrone/Henderson, Jackson's Coaching & MORE!
Posted by Jeremy Lambert on 10.14.2009
Is Shane Carwin being smart by needling Brock Lesnar? Does Forrest Griffin need a UFC 106 victory more than Tito Ortiz? Was Donald Cerrone vs. Ben Henderson the best WEC fight this year? 411's Daniel Bonnizzio and Patrick Mullin debate those topics and more in this week's edition of 411 MMA Fact or Fiction!
October rolls along and although there are no major shows this week, there's plenty to get to coming off a very good WEC event, a lot of trash talk, and the making of a major rematch.
To debate those topics and more this week we have the man with the best Takedown in the business and a Fact or Fiction newcomer, so go easy on him readers, please welcome Daniel Bonnizzio. His opponent has the Blueprint to beat anyone and also delivers the best Ultimate Fighter reports on the net, he is Patrick Mullin.
In the words of John McCarthy…LET'S GET IT ON!
1. Ben Henderson vs. Donald Cerrone was the best WEC fight this year.
Daniel Bonnizzio:FACT. I think that this barely edges out Faber/Brown II for the honor of WEC Fight of the Year, but justly so. Cerrone looked as good as ever, locking in submission after submission and staying busy whenever Henderson took him down, Henderson surviving submission after submission and raining bombs down on Cerrone while getting kicked in the face over and over. When they were standing up they were always busy and in the fifth round they looked like they were still in the first. They worked bell-to-bell and they get the honor here.
Patrick Mullin:FICTION. There's no question it was a great fight from bell to bell, but I preffered Miguel Torres vs. Takeya Mizugaki. We knew Henderson was going to look to take this fight to the ground and Cerrone was going to work submissions from the bottom. With Mizugaki I don't think anyone really knew what to expect because he was a virtual unknown, and he goes out and fights on even terms with a guy who was a consensus top 5 pound for pound fighter in a stand up war. I also think the pace did visibly slow in rounds four and five in the Cerrone-Henderson fight as Henderson was obviously gassing from his work in the first three rounds and Cerrone took control of the fight. In Torres-Mizugaki that fight came down to the last round with each guy pouring it on, it just so happened Miguel had a little more left.
SCORE:0 for 1.
2. Making Brock Lesnar mad before their UFC 106 fight isn't smart strategy on the part of Shane Carwin.
Daniel Bonnizzio:FACT. Ask Heath Herring and Frank Mir. Both of them talked some serious trash about Lesnar and you saw what he did. Granted Lesnar is going to beat on you regardless, but as we saw at UFC 91 with Randy, Lesnar did what he needed to win and left Randy in relatively good health. Heath suffered a broken orbital bone after a huge right hand and had Lesnar smothering him for fifteen minutes. Frank talked some HUGE trash and his face was turned into hamburger meat. I was sure Lesnar knew Frank was out and kept beating away at him, hitting him with the lunchboxes he calls fists. Carwin is calling Lesnar out and he's going to leave with some damage done to him.
Patrick Mullin:FICTION. Daniel even if Shane doesn't make Brock mad he's still going to take some damage. Shane's a much better match up to beat brock than jobber to the stars Heath Herring or the most overrated heavyweight in MMA Frank Mir is. By pushing Brock's buttons he's going to manipulate Brock into making mistakes, the difference between he and Brock's other opponents is that he'll be able to capitalize on said mistakes. Mir and Herring don't hit anywhere near as hard as Shane, don't have as good a wrestling base as Shane, nor do they come out of a camp as good as Shane's. Not only is Carwin doing things right leading up to the fight, I think he'll do it during the fight and walk away champion.
SCORE:0 for 2.
3. Sokoudjou has a better chance at upsetting Mousasi than Rogers has at upsetting Fedor.
Daniel Bonnizzio:FICTION. Sokodjou, while a decent fighter, is still going to get run over my Mousasi because unless he wins the fight in the first minute or so he goes out and is easy to beat. Lyoto Machida got his only submission win over Sokodjou and I think Gegard is a better grappler than Lyoto is. Rogers, however, has a legit chance at really beating Fedor. Rogers has some really nice combos and as we saw in the Fedor/Arlovski fight, technical boxing is probably Fedor's biggest weakness. Rogers also has some serious hands and if he lands a huge bomb or an outrageous combo then Fedor is going to take the canvas nap that night.
Patrick Mullin:FICTION. Like Daniel I tend to think people have written off Sokoudjou too soon. The guy got thrown to the lions very early in his career and there's still a lot of time for him to become an elite fighter. Of course his counterpart Gegard Mousasi is younger than he is and has been able to have a tremendous amount of success. He's been able to beat Babalu on the ground where Sokoudjou's game is at its weakest, and thus far Mousasi has proven to have a pretty good chin. In Fedor, age is catching up with him these days. His main weakness as Daniel pointed out is technical striking and Rogers, while obviously quite powerful with his punches, is also very underrated in how technically sound he is standing up. He also comes rom a wrestling based camp so he may be able to avoid Fedor muscling him to the ground. There's the chance for an upset in both fights, I just see a greater shot of it with Brett and Fedor.
SCORE:1 for 3.
Video Intermission
4. Quinton Jackson is the worst coach in TUF history.
Patrick Mullin:FACT. Rampage edges out Ken Shamrock here for a few reasons. Ken never once walked out on his fighters and show a total lack of class and respect for guys giving it their all trying to win and earn a UFC contract. His lack of success as a coach also spans over two seasons while Ken's lasted for only one. He also isn't afraid of showing preferential treatment to certain fighters and being a jerk in general to the other team.
Daniel Bonnizzio:FACT. Rampage is so bad that he gets this award twice actually. he was terrible in TUF7 and now in TUF10 he's doing worse. I don't recall anyone going 0-4 in TUF competition (off the top of my head) and be so classless about it. Nobody else has walked away from the fight no matter how bad it went, and he blames the fighters' inexperience over his own bad coaching for the reasons they have lost. He has the far and away lead here for worst TUF coach ever.
SCORE:2 for 4.
5. Forrest Griffin needs a UFC 106 victory more than Tito Ortiz.
Patrick Mullin:FACT. Forrest is coming off of a career worst performance against Anderson Silva, and on top of that lost his prior fight with Rashad Evans. Two devastating KO losses back to back are hard enough to come back from, but if he drops three fights in a row he'll wind up on prelims or Spike TV before he's seriously considered for a major fight in the division and a long way away from getting a title shot. If Tito loses, well he's sort of expected to. He's been off for close to two years and coming back against a guy who's been fighting the best 205 has to offer in his last few fights. No biggie if he loses this one.
Daniel Bonnizzio:FACT. Way more. Forrest is coming off back to back KO losses, one of them being called one of the worst performances in recent memory. Tito, however, is coming off of a huge layoff, back surgery and hasn't beat someone not named Shamrock since he beat Forrest in the razor thin split decision at UFC 59. Tito's fight against Coleman was supposed to be a gimme fight, but since its now against Forrest he's going to actually have to work and I think that Forrest is the better fighter at this point. He was winning against Rashad before his kick was caught and he mailed in a stupid performance against Anderson. Plus, nobody can live through 3 in a row in the UFC.
SCORE:3 for 5.
6. UFC switching to a smaller Octagon is a bad idea.
Patrick Mullin:FACT. The octagon is already a beneficial fighting location to a grappler allowing them to secure takedowns and work in the clinch easier than a ring would. If you shrink the octagon down its going to be a ridiculous handicap for the strikers. Combine that with the fact that the casual fan base of the UFC pays to see guys stand up and bang as opposed to work the ground game and they'll be losing a lot of revenue because people will be turned off by a lack of stand up action. You'll also have fighters who are primarily strikers not want to fight in the UFC because of the obvious handicap, and thus the UFC would lose revenue on the money those guys would draw in. Its lose every which way here for the UFC.
Daniel Bonnizzio:FICTION. But only barely. So long as they don't go to a tiny cage it's fine. Right now they fighters get around 30 feet from point to point in the Octagon to play in, which adds up to a lot of area. Having a smaller area would decrease the 'sprawl' room for the fighters and less room to run away in. While it's not necessary at this point in time (or possibly ever) I wouldn't call it a bad idea per se. It's just not the best one, and so long as it's not a tiny cage I wouldn't be against it.
SCORE:3 for 6.
Patrick and Daniel split things down the middle. You know the say, "the money is in the rematch."
Speaking of rematches, next week Adam Tool and Larry Csonka square off again in the ultimate rematch. Last time these two participated in Fact or Fiction, Csonka won a controversial decision that warranted an immediate rematch. Can Tool extract a little bit of revenge this time round? Come back next week as Tool and Csonka preview UFC 104 and debate the latest happenings in the MMA world.
"Making Brock Lesnar mad before their UFC 106 fight isn't smart strategy on the part of Shane Carwin."
Of course it is. We get to watch Brock destroy someone when he's pissed off
Posted By: Guest#5599 (Guest) on October 13, 2009 at 11:34 PM
Carwin's options in terms of how to respond to Brock's shit-talking are pretty limited. Folks seem to overlook the fact that Lesnar didn't make any soundbyte-worthy slurs on Randy prior to their bout; write it off as a relative level of respect for a guy who's bonafide HoF material.
Contrary, Brock went right after Carwin's credentials in promoting the fight, and Carwin had two choices: brush it off, or do what any good fighter does, and address the shit-talking. His version of "insulting" Lesnar is tame as fuck compared to the way that Herring and Mir went about it, which was to act like Brock was some pro-wrestling joke with a few fluke wins and no ground game.
I'm sure Brock can fuel his fire off of Carwin explaining his academic choices for a Division II school or talking about bringing the fight to their bout, but it sure as hell isn't on par with the prior examples of giving Lesnar a reason to beat the crap out of his opponents.
Posted By: Meirsch (Guest) on October 14, 2009 at 12:35 AM
I think a smaller Octagon benefits the striker more. There is less room to run and they can cut off the Octagon better.
Cro Cop for example would have a lot better chance of getting his LHK off.
They just need to do something with those vinyl stickers on the mat. I'm tired of seeing guys slip around on them. How hard would it be to make them less slippery?
Posted By: RedVexx (Guest) on October 14, 2009 at 12:35 AM
Don't Feed the Lesnar, it only gets Angrier
Posted By: Tito (Guest) on October 14, 2009 at 01:12 AM
Contrary, Brock went right after Carwin's credentials in promoting the fight, and Carwin had two choices: brush it off, or do what any good fighter does, and address the shit-talking.
Posted By: Meirsch (Guest) on October 14, 2009 at 12:35 AM
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Except that Carwin was the instigator - going after Lesnar following Brock's UFC 100 showing.
Shane quickly condemned Brock's post fight antics and speech, and blasted him for being a champion and acting that way.
Posted By: cyks (Guest) on October 14, 2009 at 01:15 AM
All the internet hate for Carwin is ridiculous (as is most internet hate). What has Carwin really said? Basically that Lesnar is disrespectful, which is is true, that he is going win (of course he will say that), and he has defended his credentials. OMG Carwin is such a bastard! Wait, that is actually really really tame. If anything ppl should be hating on him for not talking enough trash!
Posted By: guest guest (Guest) on October 14, 2009 at 01:57 AM
"
Except that Carwin was the instigator - going after Lesnar following Brock's UFC 100 showing.
Shane quickly condemned Brock's post fight antics and speech, and blasted him for being a champion and acting that way."
If that's the case, then I stand corrected. Though I'd also factor in Carwin angling to throw his hat into a high-profile bout with Brock.
I still don't consider anything that's been said to be remotely as ill-advised as Mir's bullshit and Herring's heel act were, though.
Posted By: Meirsch (Guest) on October 14, 2009 at 03:50 AM
Much like every song needs more Cow Bell 411 MMA needs more Mullin.
1. I have Direct TV...
2. Fiction: Of the criticisms that can be leveled at Brock Lesnar needing motivation to beat up a guy isn't one of them. Carwin making him mad doesn't make a difference either way besides making Carwin look worse if he loses.
3. Fiction: The Sokodjou riddle has been solved make him come to you, avoid his power for the first round, he will gas then pick him apart. Every fighter who has fought Soko with this gameplan has won and Mousasi is no different. So by the default of there being no proven gameplan to beat Rogers this is Fiction.
4. Fact: He doesn't seem to even care honestly and just wants to eat up TV time.
5. Fact: I think Griffin certainly needs the victory more than Tito but honestly the second Griffin quit fighting guys comming back from serious injury or still dealing with injury he started losing due to a suspect chin and poor punching power(Which was pretty much the rumor all along.) Judging by recent interviews he hasn't been taking losing well.
Tito on the other hand has given Machida a better fight than anyone and force Rashad to a draw in his two most recent high profile fights if your gonna not win that's the best case scenerio you could hope for.
Either way I doubt Forrest EVER gets put on the Prelims he's too much of a draw.
6. Fact: The fact the Octagon doesn't have the "hard angles" of a ring already favors brawlers over more traditional technical strikers and the fence and top bias scoring(Not UFCs call here in fact from every interview where they talk to White and crew they seem to hate the fact scoring works like this.) already favors wrestlers over Jiu Jitsu guys, all this does is give technical strikers less space to create angles and gives Jiu Jitsu guys less open mat to work a proper bottom game.
Sure there are guys who overcome this and are successful(B.J. Penn mixes solid technical boxing with Jiu Jitsu and the rumor is he does ok.) but overall this fixes nothing and simply adds to any criticisms that can be leveled at the octagon as a fair medium in which to hold an MMA contest.
Hey guys great article.
Posted By: Tyler (Guest) on October 14, 2009 at 04:10 AM
Carwin's options in terms of how to respond to Brock's shit-talking are pretty limited. Folks seem to overlook the fact that Lesnar didn't make any soundbyte-worthy slurs on Randy prior to their bout; write it off as a relative level of respect for a guy who's bonafide HoF material.
Posted By: Meirsch (Guest)
Brock's smack talk lol I see you are a hater. please come back here for some crow post fight.
Posted By: Guest#9918 (Guest) on October 14, 2009 at 08:06 AM
What usually happens when you make the Hulk angry...he gets stronger....I see NO difference between Brock and the Hulk. Best bet is to lull the big guy to sleep and tell him how wonderful he is and how you have no chance...have him come in overconfident...otherwise..
BROCK SMASH!!!
Posted By: Guest#1306 (Guest) on October 14, 2009 at 08:09 AM
How much smaller is the new Octagon going to be?
Posted By: protectheinnocent (Guest) on October 14, 2009 at 08:26 AM
Lets use the knowledge we already have. Usually the answer tp most questions is money.....meanwhile at UFC's hall of Justice...Dana speaking to a bunch of other dudes who own 23 cars and an ivory and diamond encrusted back scratcher..."Lets make the cage smaller so we can add two more rows of overpriced seats" Once again the world is safe from Bob Eucker priced seats. Why do we even need a cage. Lets stuff em both in a duffle bag and see what happens. hey theres the catch phrase for the events....Scuffle in The Duffle 2009. If you didnt enjoy this comment, please check your pulse, check your blood pressure...and check to see what time Matlock comes on.
Posted By: Steeler Steve (Guest) on October 14, 2009 at 08:41 AM
Shane quickly condemned Brock's post fight antics and speech, and blasted him for being a champion and acting that way.
Posted By: cyks (Guest) on October 14, 2009 at 01:15 AM
Wow, that's some serious trash talk right there.
Posted By: Anthony (Guest) on October 14, 2009 at 08:44 AM
if Patrick Mullin seriously thinks that Shane Carwin will manipulate Brock Lesnar into making mistakes by trash talking he's sadly mistaken. Shane Carwin's trash talk is piss poor (see his "Brock is a draw, I'm a fighter" interview) and it won't have any effect at all on the outcome of the fight.
Posted By: saerbarnet (Guest) on October 14, 2009 at 10:29 AM
Rampage as worst TUF coach?
Before this season, I wouldn't have said that.
Since seeing this season so far, I would DEFINITELY say that.
I don't know what's worse between Rampage's coaching, or Rashad being a much cooler guy than I would have ever thought, and definitely a much better coach. I'm starting to LIKE Rashad, and I can't believe I just typed that. Hell, even Jardine has grown on me.
Cats and dogs, living together, MASS HYSTERIA!
Posted By: Nick (Guest) on October 14, 2009 at 10:31 AM
Patrick Mullin: Ken never once walked out on his fighters and show a total lack of class and respect for guys giving it their all trying to win and earn a UFC contract.
What fights have you been watching? This season has some of the least motivated shlubs in the show's 10 season history. I'd even add Big Country to that list, as his win over Kimbo was a rather pathetic performance overall.
Not to excuse Rampage's actions though, a coach walking away before the match is even over is disrespectful no matter how undeserving his fighter is.
Posted By: Guest#3627 (Guest) on October 14, 2009 at 01:40 PM
Patrick Mullin: FICTION. Daniel even if Shane doesn't make Brock mad he's still going to take some damage. Shane's a much better match up to beat brock than jobber to the stars Heath Herring or the most overrated heavyweight in MMA Frank Mir is. By pushing Brock's buttons he's going to manipulate Brock into making mistakes, the difference between he and Brock's other opponents is that he'll be able to capitalize on said mistakes. Mir and Herring don't hit anywhere near as hard as Shane, don't have as good a wrestling base as Shane, nor do they come out of a camp as good as Shane's. Not only is Carwin doing things right leading up to the fight, I think he'll do it during the fight and walk away champion.
Besides the first sentense and a half this is totally fail. Mir is far from being the MOST overrated HW. Brock won't make mistakes from getting mad, he learned the mistake thing in his first fight against Mir. Also Mir(and Noguira) are the best match ups to beat Brock, as we seen when Mir beat Brock the first time. Carwin isn't going to outwrestle Brock, and I doubt he'll KO Brock before Lesnar takes him down.
Posted By: Shawno420 (Guest) on October 14, 2009 at 01:43 PM
Shawn you retard, the best match up to beat Brock is a guy with a good wrestling base; quick, powerful, and educated hands; resiliency; and a great camp behind him.
Nogueira is feather fisted, can't take a punch anymore, and not big enough to compete with Brock on the ground.
Mir is the most overrated heavyweight in the division. He made his name by breaking the arm of Tim Sylvia(who's proven he's simply not good), beating a recently hospitalized and shot Nog, and got a really favorable referee in his first fight with Brock. What else has he done besides get KO'ed by a light heavyweight and beat Wes Sims and Tank Abbot?
Posted By: Patrick Mullin (Registered) on October 14, 2009 at 02:40 PM
Having a smaller cage will prevent many take downs because a lot of the times the guy getting taken down will be able to fall back to the cage rather than to the mat.
Posted By: DaTruth (Guest) on October 14, 2009 at 04:00 PM
Carwin beat Brock? Um, no.. you sir are an idiot.
Even if there was a chance.. and there isn't... Dana would NEVER let it happen.
Face facts: Brock Lesnar, love him or hate him, is the poster child of UFC for the next few years.
I Guarantee Brock wins. TKO round 2.
Posted By: That's right, I said it. (Guest) on October 14, 2009 at 06:37 PM
Having a smaller cage will prevent many take downs because a lot of the times the guy getting taken down will be able to fall back to the cage rather than to the mat.
Posted By: DaTruth (Guest) on October 14, 2009 at 04:00 PM
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Most fighters who back up against the cage (instead or sprawling) to avoid the takedown- get taken down.
It's much easier to get a single or double leg takedown when a fighter's legs are under or in front of him, rather then behind him.
If the cage were a square, strikers would be able to 'trap' their opponents in a corner, but with 8 sides and no (as mentioned) "hard angles", a smaller cage wouldn't stop someone (like K. Starnes) from just backpedalling in a smaller circle.
It would hinder the strikers, hinder the submission artists, but give the UFC some more seating and really help out the wrestlers and GnP guys.
Posted By: cyks (Guest) on October 14, 2009 at 08:34 PM
wow whats with all da hate on carwin when brock frist start everyone except wrestling fan talked shit about da guy now u all love him hes 4- 1 and hasn't beat anyone he didn't have 20 or more pounds on at least carwin is 10 and 0 and hasn't passed 2min in da first round that impressive for anyone brock hasn't had any impressive wins every fight hes had nobody thought he would lose except for maybe the first fight with mir carwin ko a guy and knock his mouth piece across da fuckin octogon i never seen anyone do that in my life no one can run through 10 straight opponents in least then 2min with devastating ko's and not deserve a shot yeah brock is champ and i wont take anything away from him but u all should stop acting like carwin is some punk off da street about to be fead to da manster cuz unlike brock's other fights he wont have dat weight advantage he normally has ps u should all go look up all of carwins fights
Posted By: Guest#8811 (Guest) on October 14, 2009 at 09:55 PM
Shawn you retard, the best match up to beat Brock is a guy with a good wrestling base; quick, powerful, and educated hands; resiliency; and a great camp behind him.
Nogueira is feather fisted, can't take a punch anymore, and not big enough to compete with Brock on the ground.
Mir is the most overrated heavyweight in the division. He made his name by breaking the arm of Tim Sylvia(who's proven he's simply not good), beating a recently hospitalized and shot Nog, and got a really favorable referee in his first fight with Brock. What else has he done besides get KO'ed by a light heavyweight and beat Wes Sims and Tank Abbot?
Posted By: Patrick Mullin (Registered) on October 14, 2009 at 02:40 PM
Wow, you come back at the person by calling them a retard?
Very Professional indeed my friend, and also I agree Mir is overrated, BUT, you are totally wrong on everything else. Brock already has shown he has can take shots from Couture and Mir's Knee.
To think that Anger will Lead to Brock making mistakes is ridiculous. With how much this guy trains, I doubt it.
Posted By: Very Professional (Guest) on October 15, 2009 at 06:58 PM
Who asks these questions? Sokoudjou epset? No one thinks this will ever happen, why waste one of your six questions with a stupid one like that?
Posted By: Guest#2431 (Guest) on October 18, 2009 at 04:46 PM
