The Greatest MMA News Column 12.15.09: The Case for Lesnar-Mir 3

Posted by Dan Plunkett on 12.15.2009

411's Dan Plunkett discusses the possibility of Brock Lesnar vs. Frank Mir 3, how to make it happen and how we got to this point. Plus, thoughts on BJ Penn's performance at UFC 107, where he goes from here, the Strikeforce signings of Dan Henderson and Bobby Lashley, and more!

The Case for Lesnar-Mir 3

Following UFC 100, the fight everyone had their mind on was Brock Lesnar vs. Fedor Emelianenko. After all, Fedor had been on top of the heavyweight division for six years, while Lesnar seemed like the perfect up and comer to knock him off his throne. "The Next Big Thing" was freakishly strong, quick, and had strong ground skills. That fight would be the biggest in the history of MMA. However, after Fedor balked UFC's huge contract offer and signed with Strikeforce, the potential superfight now looks more and more unlikely every day. No worries though, because another huge heavyweight battle just came into view; and we've seen it twice before.

Brock Lesnar came onto the MMA scene to much hype. Mostly because of his past career as a top WWE Superstar, but knowledgeable people turned to his wrestling background and size for a more accurate assessment of how good he could be. After handily defeating Min-Soo Kim in his first professional fight, Lesnar was anxious to move right into the big leagues. Many people, including UFC President Dana White, were skeptical that Lesnar could move right into the largest MMA organization in the world and compete with top heavyweights.

After months of negotiations, the UFC announced Lesnar's signing at UFC 77. A couple weeks later, it was announced that Lesnar would take on former heavyweight champion Frank Mir at UFC 81 on Super Bowl Weekend. The match-up was no surprise for Brock, as he had requested Mir to be his first opponent.

At the time, Frank Mir was a fighter on a mission to get back in heavyweight title contention. Just three months after defeating Tim Sylvia for the heavyweight crown in 2004, Mir was involved in a serious motorcycle accident. The resulting injuries put him out of commission for nearly 20 months. After being stripped of the heavyweight title due to inactivity, he returned to the Octagon against grappler Marcio Cruz. Surprisingly, Cruz dismantled Mir and finished him with strikes in the first round. Five months after that Mir won an unimpressive decision over journeyman Dan Christison. Mir then took on the undefeated Brandon Vera and was ravaged by "The Truth" in just 69 seconds.

The Frank Mir in those three fights was not the Frank Mir that won the heavyweight championship. Even more than two years after the motorcycle accident Mir still wasn't ready to fight at the highest level. Seeing this, the Las Vegas native took a ten month break from fighting. During that time, he focused on becoming the Frank Mir that broke bones, retired fighters, and submitted elite submission fighters. At UFC 74 in August of 2007, the real Frank Mir returned to the Octagon and submitted Antoni Hardonk in the first round.

Despite the quick win, it wasn't entirely clear at the time if Frank Mir was really back. After all, Antoni Hardonk wasn't going to win any Grapplers Quest anytime soon.

Meanwhile, Brock Lesnar was looking for a name heavyweight to fight in his UFC debut. Mir seemed like the perfect candidate: former heavyweight champion, good highlight in breaking Tim Sylvia's arm, good talker, good on the ground, and if 2006 Mir was still lurking in the shadows of his last performance, there was a great chance Lesnar could win.

The bout was promoted largely as pro wrestling vs. MMA. Former Olympic Gold Medalist Kurt Angle was heavily featured in the countdown show talking about Lesnar, only the caption under his name read "TNA Champion." The wrestling fans would tune in to see if Lesnar could actually fight and to see him end the ridicule many MMA fans brought upon them. MMA fans wanted to see Mir obliterate Lesnar, whether it is by submission or knockout. It was us vs. them, no matter which side of the battle you were on.

The fight itself was arguably the most exciting 90 seconds in UFC history. Lesnar went for a takedown about five seconds into the fight and began aggressively pounding on the smaller Mir. Some of those punches ended up hitting the back of Mir's head, which is illegal. Referee Steve Mazzagatti stepped in and took a point away from Brock. After restarting them standing, Lesnar either dropped Mir or Mir slipped, depending on how you see it. The 280 pound Lesnar then continued his relentless assault on the former champion. While on the bottom Mir, a black belt in Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu, attempted multiple submissions causing Lesnar to stand up in Mir's guard. Mir then hooked Lesnar's leg and caught him in a kneebar, causing the big man to tap out.

Even in losing, Lesnar turned in an impressive performance before making a big mistake. His combination of speed, power, and wrestling ability assured many that he would one day be a force to be reckoned with.

Lesnar proved to be a big draw on PPV as 600,000 buys were accumulated, about half of which were first time UFC buyers. That huge audience left no doubt that the UFC would give Lesnar at least one more shot

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Also at UFC 81, Antonio Rodrigo Nogueira defeated Tim Sylvia to become the interim heavyweight champion. Randy Couture, the UFC Heavyweight Champion, had ‘resigned' from the company following their inability to sign Fedor Emelianenko in late 2007. Since Couture had refused to defend his title, and the UFC wanted to keep the belt on him in order to strengthen their court case, the UFC held the aforementioned interim title bout.

Despite being one of the most legendary fighters in MMA history and arguably the second best heavyweight of all time, Nogueira didn't have much of a fan base in North America. This caused a problem for the UFC, who was in need of coaches for season eight of their Ultimate Fighter reality show. To make matters worse, the rightful top contender, Fabricio Werdum, didn't speak good English. Had the UFC gone and made them coaches, it would have been a ratings disaster. Thanks to his newfound fame following the win over Lesnar and a depleted UFC heavyweight division, Frank Mir, who hadn't beaten a top ten heavyweight in four years, was named coach opposite the top three ranked Nogueira.

While Mir would have to wait until December for his next fight, Lesnar's next fight was scheduled for August. After original opponent Mark Coleman got injured, veteran Heath Herring stepped up to take on Lesnar. Herring was no stranger to beating wrestlers with a lot of hype, as he was the first man to finish both Mark Kerr and Tom Erikson respectively. But those fights happened soon after the turn of the millennium, plus, Lesnar was bigger and stronger than Kerr and more dedicated than Erikson.

The number of people watching Lesnar was no different than last time as UFC 87 also pulled in over 600,000 PPV buys, but the way Lesnar fought was much different. This time, we saw a much calmer Brock, despite coming out of the gate with a brutal straight right hand. The veteran Herring had no answer for Brock as he was thoroughly dominated the entire fight. As the bout came to a close, Lesnar rode Herring like a horse and laughed at him, further polarizing him among fans.

Less than a month later, Randy Couture was back in negotiations with the UFC. The middle-aged Couture realized that the ongoing court battle with the UFC wasn't going to come to a close anytime soon, so he was preparing for a comeback. Despite the 11-month holdout, Couture remained the UFC Heavyweight Champion. This left the UFC in a strange spot since they couldn't cancel the interim title bout between Mir and Nogueira since they had already filmed the Ultimate Fighter season to unify the belts right away. Meanwhile, Fabricio Werdum was still an undesirable fighter to give a title shot because few knew who he was and there was still that English problem. Since the UFC heavyweight division was so weak at the top the only other option was Brock Lesnar due to his popularity and coming off of an impressive win. The winners of both title bouts would then fight in 2009 to determine the undisputed heavyweight champion.

There was a mixed reaction to Lesnar getting a title shot so early. On one hand, he matched up well with Couture and certainly had a chance to win, but he hadn't earned his title shot. The latter shouldn't be very surprising though, as there have been plenty of fighters (Couture, BJ Penn, Pedro Rizzo, Ken Shamrock) that have been given title shots by the UFC despite not deserving it. It was just another reminder that this is a business as well.

Immediately, Couture and Lesnar went on the media circuit to promote the fight. They appeared on a variety of ESPN programming including SportsCenter, as well as various radio shows. The fight was billed as ‘The Biggest Fight in UFC History' (a billing which has been used no less than twice since) and had many predicting upwards of one million buys.

Despite the vast difference in weight and age, the fight was fairly competitive. Lesnar was able to take Randy down, but couldn't hold him there. Couture nearly got Lesnar to the ground, but the Minnesotan's size and strength proved too much for the then 45-year-old. Lesnar landed a straight right hand just behind the ear of Couture, dropping the soon-to-be ex-champion. From there, Lesnar pounded Couture with short hammer fists until the referee stopped the fight. Incredibly, Brock Lesnar was the UFC Heavyweight Champion only a year-and-a-half after his MMA debut.

Lesnar had his sights set on a rematch with Frank Mir, but it didn't seem too likely. While both excelled on the ground, it was generally believed that Nogueira held the submissions advantage as well as striking. Add in the fact that Nogueira had fought the best heavyweights in the world (Fedor x3, Mirko Cro Cop, Josh Barnett, Ricco Rodriguez, Sylvia) as well as a 370-pound Bob Sapp yet had somehow never been finished in his noteworthy career, and you have every reason to discount Frank Mir. Prior to the fight however, Nogueira had a battle with staph infection that landed him in the hospital for 5 days. Suddenly, without anyone knowing it, Mir's odds of victory increased dramatically.

Ironically, the two ground experts decided to strike throughout the duration of the bout. It was clear that Mir was moving much better than Nogueira and he soon knocked him down. At the end of the first round, Mir knocked Nogueira down again, with the horn sounding just as the Brazilian hit the mat. The knockdowns clearly gave Mir a great amount of confidence heading into the second round. In that round Mir did what many thought was impossible for him to do: finish Minotauro Nogueira. After four years of intense rehab, dedication, and some luck, Frank Mir was once again on top of the UFC heavyweight division. In his brilliant post-fight interview, Mir commented on the monumental feat of defeating Minotauro Nogueira, before delivering a message to Brock Lesnar that he would make him famous in their rematch.



The stage was set: May 23, 2009. UFC 98. Lesnar vs. Mir II. Well, it was set until Mir decided that he needed knee surgery. The minor surgery's recovery would make the May 23 date a close call for Mir, who wanted to be 100% for the biggest fight of his career. As a result of the surgery, the rematch was moved to UFC 100 on July 11 (the move caused some major changes in the light heavyweight division involving Rampage Jackson, Rashad Evans, and Lyoto Machida as well). Even though it turned out that Mir could have fought at 100% on May 23, it was best that the fight was moved to UFC 100. The UFC's milestone event was sure to have a lot of media presence simply due to the number, and with Lesnar being the company's marquee fighter, the heavyweight title being unified, as well as the entertaining banter between the two fighters, it made the most sense to put it on UFC 100.

Leading up to the fight, Lesnar was determined to avenge the only loss of his short career. Mir talked confidently that Brock would never be as good as him. On the countdown show, Lesnar got so angry while watching their first meeting that he got up and punched a door. He was no Rampage Jackson with his door destroying skills, but it was fairly impressive nonetheless. UFC 100 would have been big with Rashad Evans vs. Rampage Jackson as the main event, but the heavyweight unification bout between Lesnar and Mir was the absolute best main event the UFC could have put on for the event. They are such polarizing figures that you want to see at least one of them get beat up badly.

I'm sure you've seen the fight if you're reading this, so you don't need me to go in depth about how much of a massacre it was. Lesnar showed great improvement and patients in his ground game as compared to their first meeting. At the end of the bout, Lesnar mocked Mir and made headlines with his controversial post-fight antics.



The loss was embarrassing for Mir, but in a good way that made him more motivated than ever. Frank Mir is obsessed with Brock Lesnar. He makes it a point to talk about how he wants to end his career. On Saturday with his win over Cheick Kongo he put himself in great position for a rematch with Lesnar. A beefed up Mir knocked down Kongo and submitted him just over a minute into the fight. While Kongo certainly doesn't have the ground game of a Lesnar, the thought of Mir gaining 20 pounds of muscle, training his ground game more, and destroying Kongo has begun to build intrigue for a third Lesnar bout.

When people look back at the 2008-2010 UFC in 10-15 years, they'll talk about two things: dominant champions and the Brock Lesnar vs. Frank Mir rivalry. What started out as a simple case of WWE vs. UFC has grown into much more than that. These two men hate each other. With lucky breaks like the beginning of Mir's resurgence coming right before Brock debuted, the UFC listening to Brock's request and giving him the Mir fight, the heavyweight division being weak, Werdum being an undesirable title contender, Couture coming back at the right time, Mir having knee surgery, the rematch being moved to UFC 100, and many more, this rivalry is as close to a perfect storm as the UFC can get at this point.

In the next month-and-a-half, it will be decided if Brock Lesnar will need surgery or not. If he doesn't, then the UFC will probably target Lesnar vs. Shane Carwin for a July date in Boston. Frank Mir would probably take on the winner of Nogueira vs. Cain Velasquez sometime in the spring or summer. If Mir and Lesnar end up winning, you can bet they'll meet again for the title. Should Carwin win, I think Mir has such a strong desire to fight Lesnar that he'd want that fight no matter what. It wouldn't hurt that the UFC wants to run more shows and is always looking for a compelling main event.

Should Lesnar end up needing surgery, which would put him out for a while, the UFC would create an interim title. While Carwin, Mir, Nogueira, and Velasquez are all equally worthy of a title shot, it would be in the UFC's best interest to put together Carwin vs. Mir. Carwin was originally scheduled to fight Lesnar at UFC 106 simply because they needed a guy to challenge for the title and they felt he would make the most compelling opponent at the time. That has certainly changed with the recent performances of Mir, Nogueira, and Velasquez. Shane Carwin is seen as the closest thing to Brock Lesnar without actually being Brock Lesnar. He is a huge heavyweight, comes from a wrestling background, has brutal ground and pound, and has big punching power. A win over Mir for him would only make Lesnar vs. Carwin more interesting.

With Carwin being extremely Lesnar-like, it makes all the sense in the world to put Frank Mir against him. If Mir can come back and beat Shane Carwin after making these changes in his training regiment, who's to say he wouldn't have a chance against Brock Lesnar? The win would make people believe that Mir does still pose a threat to Lesnar despite the manhandling in July. When you factor in the pre-fight talk, UFC Primetime making a comeback, and their rich history with each other, Lesnar vs. Mir III is by far the most lucrative fight the UFC could put on between fighters currently on their roster.

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BJ Penn is Insanely Good at Lightweight

There is no lightweight in the world that can beat BJ Penn. Shinya Aoki wouldn't be able to get him to the ground. Gray Maynard wouldn't be able to evade his submissions. Frankie Edgar would ultimately be too small for him or wouldn't be able to not get submitted. Eddie Alvarez has good stand-up, but BJ's is better; he's also better at everything else.

Diego Sanchez was supposed to be Penn's biggest challenge at lightweight. Before the bout, people were saying that if anyone could dethrone BJ at lightweight, it was Diego. The result? Penn landed 150 strikes. Diego attempted 27 takedowns throughout the fight; he landed a total of zero of those. In the 22 minute and 37 second fight, Diego landed a total of eight strikes. Eight. That, my friends, is domination.



I don't think there's a real challenge for BJ at lightweight. Does that mean he should move back up to welterweight? Not necessarily. While I do think BJ would be a top 5 welterweight, I'd prefer him stay at lightweight the bulk of 2010. During that run, if Jose Aldo continues to smash people, BJ could feasibly move down to featherweight and fight him. I think BJ would win, but it would make for an interesting fight and would increase the WEC's exposure tenfold. BJ really wants another shot at Georges St. Pierre, but I don't want to see that at this point in his career. In a couple years, if he's still destroying people, moves up and beats some top welterweights, and Georges is still fighting at welterweight, I guess I wouldn't be completely against it.

The biggest positive with BJ's performance on Saturday is that people are realizing that he is truly one of the greats. Leading into the second GSP fight, I wrote a three part series detailing both fighters' careers up to that point. Read them if you doubt that BJ is one of the best ever. One of the things that get overlooked is some people scoff at things like Penn's win over Matt Hughes because Hughes has lost some fights to GSP and Thiago Alves lately. The reality is that at the time Matt Hughes was considered the best fighter on the planet and BJ was a huge underdog moving up from lightweight to take on the welterweight champion.

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Dan Henderson and Bobby Lashley Sign with Strikeforce

There were two big signings for Strikeforce over the last week as Dan Henderson and former WWE Superstar and current TNA wrestler Bobby Lashley have made their way to the San Jose based promotion.

Henderson is of course coming off of a huge knockout victory over Michael Bisping at UFC 100 and should have gotten a title shot after, but stagnant contract negations with the UFC put a stop to that. I think that Anderson Silva vs. Dan Henderson II could have been the biggest middleweight fight in history, but the UFC couldn't capitalize on Henderson's big knockout win so here we are. While Hendo is certainly a big pick-up for Strikeforce, his name isn't that big and won't make too much of an impact on their CBS ratings.

The signing does open up big match-ups against middleweight champion Jake Shields, light heavyweight champion Gegard Mousasi, and even heavyweight kingpin Fedor Emelianenko. According to reports, it's likely that if Henderson beats Shields, he'll then fight Mousasi. If he is victorious over him, then he'll get a crack at "The Last Emperor." I know a lot of people think Henderson's too small for Fedor, and he very well may be, but I wouldn't mind watching that fight. Don't get me wrong, I'd rather see Fedor take on Alistair Overeem than anybody else Strikeforce has to offer right now, but Fedor vs. Henderson could be a fun fight.

Bobby Lashley has a lot of potential for Strikeforce. While he draws comparisons to Brock Lesnar, he's not as good as Brock nor as good of a draw. However he can grow to become a good fighter given his wrestling background and size. Lashley may not be as good as a draw as Brock, but he can still bring in viewers. Look for him on Strikeforce's next CBS show, possibly against another big name heavyweight that lacks experience: Herschel Walker.


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