411 MMA Fact or Fiction 12.16.09: Penn's Dominance, Best Fight This Weekend, Henderson to Strikeforce & MORE!
Posted by Jeremy Lambert on 12.16.2009
Is BJ Penn the most dominating fighter in his division? Is Dan Henderson going to Strikeforce a bigger deal than Bobby Lashley? Did Kenny Florian turn in the most impressive UFC 107 performance? 411's Jonathan Solomon and Scott Kuczkowski debate those topics and more in this week's edition of 411 MMA Fact or Fiction!
December rolls along and although UFC 107 is now in the books, there is no shortage of MMA this weekend as both WEC and Strikeforce have events coming up on Saturday.
1. Kenny Florian turned in the most impressive performance at UFC 107.
Jonathan Solomon: FICTION Kenny Florian was solid and showed an improved striking arsenal, no doubt. However, there were at least two EPIC performances displayed on Saturday night. B.J. Penn simply showed he could not be touched. Frank Mir made quick, dominating work of Cheick Kongo. If Florian would have turned in the most impressive performance on this show, then people would be crying to see a rematch with Penn. I hear nothing. In fact, I still think Florian does not stand a snowballs chance in hell against Penn.
Scott Kuczkowski: FICTION. I agree with Solomon, BJ turned in the most impressive performance at UFC 107; probably of his entire career. BJ is on another level and my biggest worry right now is that there aren't any interesting matchups for him inside the UFC's Lightweight division. This creates a situation where he'll fight guys less deserving or the UFC will have to bring in someone to challenge him. I thought Kenny Florian put on the second-most impressive performance, stopping Clay Guida. Guida is a workhorse and I was worried Kenny might spend the fight working off his back, but he caught Guida coming in and choked him out. While I thought Frank Mir looked good against Kongo, the reality was that Mir is a contender while Kongo is barely a gatekeeper.
SCORE:1 for 1.
2. The fight you're looking forward to most this weekend is Thomson vs. Melendez 2
Jonathan Solomon: FICTION If this fight took place when it was originally scheduled, then hell yeah I would have been stoked to see it. As of December 2009, it's great it will finally happen but all the momentum has been shattered. The Strikeforce show should be sweet and has several fights that are geared towards striking but there is no single blow away fight that everyone will unanimously want to see most. Today, I want to see King Mo's debut against a tough Mike Whitehead. I would love to see Scott Smith knock out Cung Le. and I'm really looking forward to Jacare Souza's debut (forget Matt Lindland). So Thomson/Melendez II is somewhere in the middle of all that.
Scott Kuczkowski: FACT Thomson vs. Melendez has been a long time coming and was only postponed due to unfortunate injuries suffered by Thomson. The first meeting of these two was a classic battle as Thomson stuffed all of Melendez's takedowns and out-struck him to a decision victory. This rematch will demonstrate if Melendez has tweaked his game to try and finally best Thomson. What else is on the card? A one-time fight for Cung Le before he disappears to make movies for a few more years? Mo Lawal crushing Whitehead? Matt Lindland, a fighter so boring he makes watching paint dry seems like an Olympic event? The Lightweight Title fight is the only reason to tune into this show.
SCORE:1 for 2.
3. BJ Penn is the most dominating fighter in his division.
Jonathan Solomon: FACT! Penn owns the lightweight division more than Fedor does for the heavyweights, more than GSP does for welterweights and definitely more than Anderson Silva does for the middleweights. B.J. Penn is at an epic level right now where nobody can touch him. He has made Joe Stevenson, Kenny Florian, Sean Sherk and Diego Sanchez all look like run of the mill fighters. Penn has so many tools that it's fair to say that he will hold the belt for as long as he wants. He has great boxing, he's a black belt in Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu and he can defend the takedowns of any other lightweight. The ghost in the closet that has been his cardio is just a myth because since returning to the UFC as a lightweight, he has had no problem in that department. He gets the nod over Fedor because the Last Emperor takes a ton of punishment in his fights. GSP, despite being awesome, has a recent loss to Matt Serra in his background (even though he avenged it and has a win over Penn, it was at 170). Anderson Silva is criticized for his lack of desire to fight opponents with no name at middleweight. B.J. Penn is motivated like no other at this point in his career, takes no damage and is undefeated since 2007 as a lightweight
Scott Kuczkowski: FACT! Right now BJ Penn is the measuring stick for dominance over a division. He's beaten everyone put in front of him handily and I don't know that there are any other Lightweights out there that could even challenge him. Gray Maynard might be strong and have great takedowns, but he doesn't offer anything BJ hasn't seen before. Aoki would get smashed in the first round after he couldn't take Penn down. Alvarez and Hansen would both fall in the same manner Florian and Sanchez fell. The only other possible interesting fights out there would be if Urijah Faber or Jose Aldo moved up to the Lightweight division from the WEC. I mention those names because while I don't expect they would challenge Penn, they should at least make for entertaining bouts.
SCORE:2 for 3.
Video Intermission
4. Cung Le vs. Scott Smith will be the best fight this weekend.
Scott Kuczkowski:FICTION. I was going to say fact, but then I remembered that Josh Thomson was fighting Gilbert Melendez, which for my money is the best fight this weekend. It's nice to see Cung Le return and all, but this will probably be only one fight before he returns to making movies. Add to that the fact Scott Smith is sort of handpicked for him (willing to stand and trade), and while it should be a good fight, it probably won't surpass Thomson/Melendez. Thomson and Melendez has been a long time coming (damn injuries) and I thought their first fight was awesome. In my opinion this gives the two Lightweights more of a storyline and creates more anticipation for their rematch (which will unify the Strikeforce Lightweight Title).
Jonathan SolomonFICTION. Le and Smith may put on a show or add another knockout to the highlight reel, but there is one reason why I say fiction. WEC. WEC 45 on Versus features Cowboy Cerrone in the main event. Three of his last four fights have earned 'fight of the night' honors and you're all but guaranteed to see more exciting action on the show. Even on the same show as Le/Smith, I would not be surprised if Jacare Souza and Matt Lindland put on the best fight of the weekend. The fight to unify the lightweight belts may be good but with all the delays this year, I don't sense a big buzz for it. Melendez and Thomson may go out there and have another five-round war but Thomson has not fought in about 15 months. Rust will be a factor there, just as it will be with Cung Le not fighting since March 2008.
SCORE:3 for 4.
5. Dan Henderson is a bigger signing for Strikeforce than Bobby Lashley.
Scott Kuczkowski:FACT. This isn't even a question for me. On one hand you have a guy who is considered one of the best fighters in both the Middleweight and Light Heavyweight divisions, has Olympic caliber wrestling, has held titles in two weight classes at the same time and is a future Hall of Famer. On the other hand you have a guy who doesn't know if he wants to be a mixed martial artist or a fake fighter, is largely untested, and will probably only be a novelty fighter for the majority of his career. Henderson is already being talked about as a contender for Shields' Middleweight Title and Mousasi's Light Heavyweight Title. I don't envision Lashley ever being anywhere on Strikeforce's Heavyweight title picture. The only upside Lashley has is that he might draw some pro-wrestling fans to tune into a Strikeforce event, but that's it. Henderson is easily the bigger signing.
Jonathan SolomonFACT. I tried to argue otherwise to myself, and I cannot do it. Henderson is the #2 middleweight and a serious light heavyweight to boot. Henderson is 39-years old and still has that dangerous power in his hands and world class wrestling. He signed a four-fight deal and wants to fight Shields, Mousasi and Fedor (in that order). The only other fight that may interest some is a battle with fellow legend, Frank Shamrock. If Henderson should lose to either Shields or Mousasi, talk about a momentum train crash. The perfect storyline may be Henderson's quest for Fedor. That is a hell of a lot more interesting than Bobby Lashley fighting average talent to get more experience. Henderson may not be a megastar that can draw like Georges St. Pierre or Brock Lesnar, but his 2009 was pretty good. He was in the main event of a mediocre UFC 93 card that did over 300,000 PPV buys. He did TUF season nine and blasted Michael Bisping at UFC 100. Factors that would change my mind, a loss right out of the gate or poor promotion for the show he debuts on (rumored to be the next CBS show in the spring). Lashley could be big but I get the feeling that his ultimate goal is to fight in the UFC (right now, only Strikeforce would allow him to continue doing pro wrestling). Lashley says he hopes to fight about four times by this time next year and only then would he possibly be ready for the top Strikeforce heavyweights. Lashley was involved in the highest grossing pro wrestling match of all-time, but he was far from the reason why. Ironically, he has shown more charisma fighting in MMA then he ever did as a pro wrestler. Lashley can be huge, but I see him spring boarding to the UFC at the end of this deal where he will become a big player.
SCORE:4 for 5.
6. You expect Rashad Evans or Thiago Silva to pull out of their UFC 108 fight in the coming days.
Scott Kuczkowski:FICTION. I think Joe Silva would have a stroke if this happened. The "cursed" UFC 108 card has got to be the biggest nightmare the UFC has ever dealt with. Tracing the changes the card has gone through is like reading a novel: Anderson Silva vs. Vitor Belfort fell through when Silva didn't recover as quickly as expected from elbow surgery. Brock Lesnar vs. Shane Carwin was pushed to UFC 108 from UFC 106, but that also faded away with the persistence of Brock's health issues. Noguiera was going to have a #1 contender's match with Cain Velasquez, but Noguiera's staph infection sidelined that. A match between Carwin and Velasquez was proposed, but then Carwin needed to rehab a knee injury. Gabriel Gonzaga vs. Junior dos Santos was expected to take place but also had to be cancelled when Gonzaga contracted staph. Carlos Condit, Tyson Griffin, and Rory Markham have all also left their opponents hanging due to injuries. Despite all this, I don't think either Rashad Evans or Thiago Silva will pull out of their fight.
Jonathan SolomonFACT. Why the hell not. It seems the entire UFC roster has had to pull out of that show due to injury or other reasons. As Kuch alluded to, the list of fights that have been cancelled would be considered a MUST-SEE event compared to what we actually will be seeing next month. I don't know about you guys, but I am stoked to check out the UFC 108 Countdown special (if they even do one). Beyond the Evans/Silva main event, how in the world can they drum up interest in this show? Any chance Sam Stout stole Joe Lauzon's ice cream bar as a kid?
SCORE:4 for 6.
Jonathan and Scott agree more often than not making this the closest contest of the week. Come back next week as two more MMA writers debate the fallout of Strikeforce and WEC and the latest news from around the MMA world right here at 411 MMA Fact or Fiction.
they did add junior dos santos vs yvel to the 108 card. that`ll be a KO of the night fight right there. unless yvel loses it and eats the ref lol
Posted By: Guest#4708 (Guest) on December 15, 2009 at 11:00 PM
Oh jesus...Penn is good and all but how can anybody definitely say he has been so much more dominant than GSP, Silva and Fedor that it's clear cut and not up for argument? Penn has had what, 5 fights in the LW division? Exactly when have those other 3 looked weak in their last 5 fights?
Well at least nobody mentioned Machida.
Posted By: Guest#6808 (Guest) on December 16, 2009 at 12:39 AM
So Anderson Silva cleaning out his division means they are "no names" but Penn cleaning out his division means Penn is the greatest.
Penn avenging a loss to Pulver means he is the best ever. GSP beating the piss out of Serra means GSP sucks.
I can only surmise that Penn's nuts are so big that they cover your eyes and go so far down your throats that they are in your brains.
Posted By: Guest#9829 (Guest) on December 16, 2009 at 12:42 AM
There is no one at lightweight who is even on the same PLANET as BJ Penn right now. He is a beast, who make Diego Sanchez and Kenny Florian both look like punks, and they are GREAT fighters. He may be the most gifted fighter I've ever seen, along with Anderson Silva. At their respective weights, there isn't a fighter alive who can touch them right now.
Posted By: Penn Hater (Guest) on December 16, 2009 at 01:01 AM
The least hit fighter in the history of MMA takes a lot of punishment in his fights? LOL.
Posted By: WilliamMorgan (Guest) on December 16, 2009 at 01:07 AM
anderson silva's dominance has been more impressive and longer than bj's. as good as he has looked at 155
Posted By: Guest#3652 (Guest) on December 16, 2009 at 01:30 AM
Dude, Bj Penn vs Uriah Fabor would fucking rock. I like uriah's explosiveness.
Posted By: chewb (Guest) on December 16, 2009 at 02:13 AM
GSP, despite being awesome, has a recent loss to Matt Serra
That fight was almost 3 years ago.
Posted By: Guest#5022 (Guest) on December 16, 2009 at 05:41 AM
"Exactly when have those other 3 looked weak in their last 5 fights?"
Fedor was getting pretty roughed up against a mediocre Brett Rogers. Can you see someone like that taking Penn down and bloodying him up like that? The answer is NO CHANCE!
Posted By: Bob-o (Guest) on December 16, 2009 at 07:14 AM
To be fair, I think GSP losing to Matt Serra was the best thing that ever happened to him. Following the loss he joined the Jackson Camp, got his training in order, and got stronger mentally.
Since that loss he's absolutely dominated and devastated Koscheck, Hughes, Serra, Fitch, Penn, and Alves, finishing half of them.
I think when you look at who GSP has beaten and compare it who Penn has beaten, GSP has the more impressive resume. In addition to the fighters I just listed he also had wins over Karo, Mayhem, Hughes, Penn, Sherk, and Trigg.
By my count, he's 12-2 against top ten caliber welterweights, finishing seven of them.
Posted By: Alex (Guest) on December 16, 2009 at 11:34 AM
Exactly when have those other 3 looked weak in their last 5 fights?"
Fedor was getting pretty roughed up against a mediocre Brett Rogers. Can you see someone like that taking Penn down and bloodying him up like that? The answer is NO CHANCE!
Posted By: Bob-o (Guest) on December 16, 2009 at 07:14 AM
Remind me how that fight ended again?
Also, Rogers is about as mediocre as Sanchez and Florian are. The best LWs aren't even in UFC.
Posted By: Guest#1068 (Guest) on December 16, 2009 at 11:36 AM
Thiago Silva won't be pulling out. Rumor is he injured his ankle and was given a boatload of money to stay in.
Also, chill a little on drinking the Penn kool-aid.
Posted By: KSti (Guest) on December 16, 2009 at 12:28 PM
"Fedor was getting pretty roughed up against a mediocre Brett Rogers. Can you see someone like that taking Penn down and bloodying him up like that? The answer is NO CHANCE!"
The difference between Penn at a lightweight and Fedor as a heavyweight is that Fedor is a SMALL heavyweight. There's not really any such thing as a small lightweight, since everyone ends up weighing 154-156. Fedor vs. Rogers saw Fedor fighting a guy 40 pounds heavier and four inches taller. So to say it's such a smudge on Fedor to get taken down by a much larger but less technically skilled athlete is a load of rubbish, because you cannot stop pure power, you have to work around it.
And forgive me if I'm wrong, but like all dominant fighters, Fedor worked round his opponents strengths and won the fight with a convincing KO.
Again, that can't happen at any weight class except HW UNLESS the fighter moves up. And what tends to happen to BJ Penn when he fights bigger fighters, just like Fedor does most of the time? Oh yeah. He's lost five times.
Posted By: Jon (Guest) on December 16, 2009 at 12:32 PM
Any chance Sam Stout stole Joe Lauzon's ice cream bar as a kid?
best. line. ever.
Posted By: Huh? (Guest) on December 16, 2009 at 12:35 PM
I think its more impressive to clear out UFC's welterweight division than the UFC's lightweight division. Most of the top 10 fighters in the world at 170 are in the UFC. This isnt the case at 155, especially the top 5.
Posted By: Hume (Guest) on December 16, 2009 at 02:09 PM
GSP has only finished old timers lately like Hughes, and Serra going to decisions against the rest holding them down in dominating fashion. I like GSP but I don't feel he's more dominate then Penn right now at his weight class. Fedor would have to be considered a very close 2nd most dominate becuase he finishes his fights and doesn't go to decision but in the process takes damage waiting for his opening making his opponents look better.
Posted By: guestklsjdfg (Guest) on December 16, 2009 at 03:14 PM
"He gets the nod over Fedor because the Last Emperor takes a ton of punishment in his fights. "
...no comment. I used to love this website,but lately its worse and worse...
Posted By: SoulBrotherNo1 (Guest) on December 16, 2009 at 04:22 PM
I don't think question 5 is anywhere near as open and close as these guys make it seem. MMA fans already know about Strikeforce and watch it because they've got the top Heavyweight fighter in the world, one of the best Light Heavyweight prospects out there, as well as numerous other good talents.
What does Dan Henderson bring in terms of audience that Strikeforce doesn't already have? Well, for one he brings, and I don't wanna sound elitist, interest from UFC fans (who perhaps aren't identified as MMA fans in general). That might be a great deal of help for Strikeforce, but what does Lashley bring? Well, look at the interest Brock brought the UFC. He brings fans from outside UFC, MMA and fighting in general - media interest, wrestling fans, and fly by night viewers. If Lashley can bring that sort of audience to Strikeforce then he'll be infinitely more valuable than Hendo.
Posted By: Jon (Guest) on December 16, 2009 at 05:03 PM
O' snap... Fedor marks in the house. Hey I bet Fedor can really relate to wwe's Sheamus, you know the beating up ex samclub employees.
Posted By: Chewb (Guest) on December 16, 2009 at 05:26 PM
OK, Fedor's beaten guys with almost 100lbs on him, BJJ blackbelt's, Olympic Judo silver medalists, world class wrestlers, K-1 class strikers and 5, that's FIVE former UFC HW champ's.
Penn is without question the best 155lb fighter in the world and I respect that he wants to push himself by moving up in weight but the numbers don't lie, he hasn't had much success against guy's with 15-25lb on him.
Fedor is the best fighter on the planet and butt-hurt fanboys pissed over the fact he didn't sign with UFC need to get over it.
*End mini-rant*
Posted By: Guest#8787 (Guest) on December 16, 2009 at 06:22 PM
"He gets the nod over Fedor because the Last Emperor takes a ton of punishment in his fights. "
_______________________________________
Did you see the first punch Rogers threw at Fedor? It shattered his nose, but he shook it off like it never touched him.
Posted By: Jordan (Guest) on December 16, 2009 at 06:22 PM
"Posted By: Guest#9829 (Guest) I can only surmise that Penn's nuts are so big that they cover your eyes and go so far down your throats that they are in your brains."
why is there always one latent homosexual that has to go there?
"OK, Fedor's beaten guys with almost 100lbs on him, BJJ blackbelt's, Olympic Judo silver medalists, world class wrestlers, K-1 class strikers and 5, that's FIVE former UFC HW champ's.
Penn is without question the best 155lb fighter in the world and I respect that he wants to push himself by moving up in weight but the numbers don't lie, he hasn't had much success against guy's with 15-25lb on him.
Fedor is the best fighter on the planet and butt-hurt fanboys pissed over the fact he didn't sign with UFC need to get over it.
*End mini-rant*
Posted By: Guest#8787 (Guest) on December 16, 2009 at 06:22 PM"
that entire post was worth re-posting. I couldn't agree more.
Posted By: Polish Post (Guest) on December 16, 2009 at 09:38 PM
why do ppl on here think that bobby lashley won`t be a successful fighter as brock? they both have about the same body size, both just started MMA. just cuz Brock fights in UFC and beat 3 vets instead of over the hill fighters to win the HW title he`s better that lashley? please, if it was the other way around ppl would be on lashley`s balls instead of brocks. btw lashleys career isnt in danger to end early like brocks is
Posted By: Guest#2340 (Guest) on December 17, 2009 at 02:10 PM
Also, Rogers is about as mediocre as Sanchez and Florian are. The best LWs aren't even in UFC
No he isn't anywhere near them, Kenflo and Sanchez have actually beaten good fighters (Karo, Guida, Daddy, Lauzon, Kos,ect) Rogers has only beaten an Arvloski who had his head up his ass. Unless ofcoarse you consider James Thompson a big win.
BJ Penn is in the UFC so the belt LW is in the UFC, its not even an arguemnt. Does anyone seriously think Aoki could beat him? What a joke, Alvarez would have a shot but a very small shot.
Finally too many Silva and Fedor nuthuggers on this website.
Most dominant fighters in there divisions are GSP and BJ. Fedor is pretty dominant but he has a lot of fighters nowadays to beat and he has taken a lot of punishment. Not saying its a bad thing, its just not a ridiculous thing like some clown here thinks.
Posted By: Guest#7217 (Guest) on December 17, 2009 at 03:43 PM
why do ppl on here think that bobby lashley won`t be a successful fighter as brock?
Because Brock defeated Randy Couture, reshaped Herrings spine and dismantled Mirs face twice while Bobby Lashley struggled to defeat wait for it....
JASON GUIDA!!!
Posted By: Guest#7785 (Guest) on December 17, 2009 at 04:40 PM
why do ppl on here think that bobby lashley won`t be a successful fighter as brock?
Because Brock defeated Randy Couture, reshaped Herrings spine and dismantled Mirs face twice while Bobby Lashley struggled to defeat wait for it....
JASON GUIDA!!!
Posted By: Guest#7785 (Guest) on December 17, 2009 at 04:40 PM
brock couldnt finish herring either. yea he broke his face in but didnt finish him. also bobby has won all his fights while lesnar lost is 2nd one in 90 seconds
Posted By: Guest#2120 (Guest) on December 17, 2009 at 05:44 PM
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