411 MMA Fact or Fiction 03.10.10: WEC 47 Fallout, Jens Pulver, Davis' Comments & MORE!
Posted by Jeremy Lambert on 03.10.2010
Will James Toney win a fight inside the Octagon? Who turned in the most disappointing performance at WEC 47? Will Jens Pulver go down as a top 5 Lightweights of all time? Should Joseph Benavidez get the first shot against Dominick Cruz and his Bantamweight title? 411's Daniel Bonnizzio and Scott Kuczkowski debate these topics and more in this week's edition of 411 MMA Fact or Fiction!
March is already off to a hot start with WEC 47 and some major news from UFC and Strikeforce.
To debate those topics and more this week we have the man with the best Takedown MMA News Report in the business, Mr. Fact or Fiction, Daniel Bonnizzio. His opponent is a man who always brings the Good, never turns in a performance as Bad as Miguel Torres, and doesn't have a huge cut that makes him ugly, he is Scott Kuczkowski.
In the words of John McCarthy…LET'S GET IT ON!
1. Joseph Benavidez should get the first shot against Dominick Cruz and his Bantamweight title.
Daniel Bonnizzio:FACT. Their last fight was in August of 2009. Since then, Benavidez has won two fights in convincing fashion each. Cruz won the belt on Saturday in a convincing fashion. While there are more than a few Bantamweights that could lay claim to a #1 contender's spot, Cruz/Benavidez II would be big. Depending on how long they need after WEC 47 to recover I would love to see them fight each other again. Their first fight was a war for a shot at the title. Now, the fight would be FOR the title, and if that won't light a bigger flame under their butts than I don't know what would. I would love to see if they could get Cruz/Benavidez II to headline WEC 49 in June (which would be nearly a full year after their first fight). However, if the WEC feels the need to have a true-blue #1 Contender's bout, then they should have Benavidez fight Scott Jorgensen at WEC 49.
Scott Kuczkowski:FACT. Dan said everything I was going to say; a rematch between the two seems very easy to hype and makes complete sense given the lack of anyone else having an immediate claim to the title. I don't think a #1 contender's bout is needed since the belt has changed hands twice in two fights, which means to me that the best contenders are already challenging for the title. Get this rematch out of the way and then book Jorgensen afterwards.
SCORE:1 for 1.
2. Jens Pulver will go down as a top 5 Lightweight of all time.
Daniel Bonnizzio:FACT. This is a really hard one to answer. On one hand, Jens was the first ever Lightweight champion. He beat down Caol Uno for five whole rounds in order to claim that belt, then went on to defend it twice (one of which was a decision win over the current champion). He went 21-8-1 in his time as a Lightweight, with the majority of his losses coming to more than decent competition. In the end though, you have to look at who he is competing against for one of the spots in that Top 5 list, and though BJ Penn definitely tops that list, Jens comes easily into the #2 spot over any other names I can think of. While he may not be the world's greatest featherweight, he will be known as one of the greatest 155 pound fighters of all time.
Scott Kuczkowski:FICTION. I think Pulver will always have a place in history as the first Lightweight Champion, but Jens unfortunately peaked before MMA got very popular. Sure, he has a win over BJ Penn, but if you ask the casual fan they'll only remember him getting choked out by Penn the second time they met. In a sense he is almost like Ken Shamrock in that all his best fights occurred before MMA gained the popularity it enjoys today and now he is viewed as some old guy who has hung around too long. Sure, Jens is a pioneer in the sport, but I think in a few years his name will be lost amongst current crop of Lightweight superstars. He'll always be remembered as a pioneer, but I don't think he'll be on many people's Top 5 Lightweights of all time list.
SCORE:1 for 2.
3. James Toney will not win a fight in the UFC.
Daniel Bonnizzio:FICTION. I'll take that to mean "not win a fight in the UFC ever. Toney has legit boxing skills, something that is severely lacking in the increasingly grappling-dominated Heavyweight division. It's a given that he will not be beating down guys like Cain Velasquez, Frank Mir, Shane Carwin, or Brock. However, if he can pick up some decent takedown defense skills, than he can put that championship-caliber boxing to use and easily pick up a win. While the 'smart' thing to ease him into MMA would be to hand him a can to fight his first go-round, the UFC is going to look to capitalize on his fame and I think that may give him troubles. Their best bet to find that balance between a big name and not a total can would probably be Kimbo, but that's not happening. In the end, no matter the road they go, Toney will eventually get one win inside The Octagon.
Scott Kuczkowski:FACT. I initially said fiction, but I changed my mind when I read Dan's argument. Sure, the UFC could feed him a can for his first fight and he might get a lucky win, but I'm not sure Dana is going to do that. If Dana is paying Toney good money, then he's probably not going to waste time watching Toney fight a can when he can prove to the entire boxing world that boxers don't belong in MMA. Just like he did with Brock Lesnar, I'd like to see Dana pit Toney against some legitimate competition right from the start and make him earn his paycheck. If Toney loses, then Dana has proven that pro athletes have no business trying MMA after they retire from their own sport. If Toney wins, they hey, we have a new heavyweight fighter. But I have to think that just about every opponent Toney faces will try to take him down (and they won't have to be a great wrestler to do it), which will pretty much spell the end. Even Cheick Kongo or Kimbo should be able to take him down with relative ease.
SCORE:1 for 3.
Video Intermission
4. Gilbert Melendez vs. Shinya Aoki is the Strikeforce fight you're most looking forward to.
Scott Kuczkowski:FICTION. I'm looking forward to this fight because I want to see Gilbert destroy Aoki and expose him as a mediocre fighter, but I'm looking forward to Henderson/Shields much more. Shields has been on a tear as of late and I think Henderson is probably going to be the guy that ends his winning streak. Shields will probably have to out grapple Henderson and hope to tire him out for the win decision win or freak submission, whereas Henderson will probably be looking for the KO or TKO via ground and pound. King Mo against Mousasi should be good too, but there just isn't much build up for that fight, so I'd have to say I'm looking forward to Shields/Henderson the most.
Daniel Bonnizzio:FACT. Sorry but I am actually looking forward to this fight the most, mainly because I think it will be a closer fight than the massacre that will be Hendo/Shields. This will be Gilbert's first real test in the deeper waters of the 155 pound division because, overrated or underrated or whatever, Aoki is generally considered a Top 5 lightweight and I don't think Melendez has faced anyone who would give him the kinds of trouble that Aoki can. As for the nobody-knows-about-it fight of the night, Gegard should be able to handle King Mo fairly easily and if I think someone can be handled fairly easily than I'm not interested too much. It's the close fights I love.
SCORE:1 for 4.
5. Miguel Torres turned in the most disappointing performance at WEC 47.
Scott Kuczkowski:FACT. Torres' luck just seems to have run out on him lately. Sure, Bowles lost too, but that was a doctor's stoppage, and Pulver lost too, but he's been through too many battles and hasn't kept up with the advancing pace of his competition. Torres got caught in a fight that was supposed to be his opportunity to rebound and get back on track to challenge for his title. That looks like it will have to wait some time right now. The worst part was that although Benavidez is a tough opponent, this was supposed to be a winnable fight for Torres. This was easily the most disappointing performance put on at WEC 47.
Daniel Bonnizzio:FACT. I admit I picked Torres to basically steamroll through Benavidez. How a fighter bounces back from a loss is crucial in maintaining a good mentality. We saw how GSP rebounded from the Serra loss: he became a beast. We saw how Cro Cop rebounded from the Gonzaga loss: he didn't. I'm fairly certain that the same thing happened to him after Bowles because he just looked like he was waiting to pull some imaginary trigger the whole time. As for the other possible losers on the card who would fit the bill: Cruz was a great matchup so Bowles losing is no big deal, Pulver is beyond being able to win right now, and everyone else was finished so quickly that it didn't really matter.
SCORE:2 for 5.
6. Marcus Davis' comments towards Dan Hardy were worse than Frank Mir's towards Brock Lesnar.
Scott Kuczkowski:FACT. but not because of anything that was said, but because Marcus Davis should have gotten over the loss already. Frank Mir talking shit to Brock Lesnar sort of makes sense because the two will most likely meet again within the next year or two and a history exists between them. Frank Mir talking shit will help hype that fight and sell the trilogy. Marcus Davis lost to Dan Hardy almost a year ago, lost his next fight against Ben Saunders, yet still hasn't gotten over his Hardy loss. Go see a sports psychologist, Marcus. Hardy in the meantime won his next fight against Swick, is focused on a title shot against GSP, and probably isn't even thinking about Marcus Davis. At this point Davis looks like a freakin' sore loser who can't come to grips that Hardy got the best of him both in the pre-fight war of words and in the octagon. Davis looks like a complete moron, which makes his comments worse than Mir's.
Daniel Bonnizzio:FACT. I agree that it wasn't the content but the context of the comments that make them worse. They fought at UFC 99 nearly a year ago. That is plenty of time to bury the proverbial hatchet and move on. Frank was talking shit to build up a third fight (which would do massive numbers) and because he has a legit beef with Lesnar. Davis shouldn't have a beef with Hardy, not really. Sure there was that whole Photoshop thing going on but come on, these people are adults and should be able to get over this kind of stuff easily. Besides, what kind of person wishes AIDS on someone?
SCORE:3 for 6.
Daniel and Scott split things down the middle. We all know that the money is in the rematch.
Come back next week as two more 411 writers preview UFC on VS. 1 and debate other news from around the MMA world only on 411 MMA Fact or Fiction.
torres's performance the other day makes you never believe he was a champ b4.
Posted By: wylun (Guest) on March 10, 2010 at 12:16 AM
LOL
James Toney HAD legit boxing skills. He hasn't beaten a legit heavyweight in 7 years and that was Holyfield. If Strikeforce had done this Dana White would be laughing.
Toney is doing this,because he is no longer a viable fighter in boxing. Any MMA fighter should easily be able to take him down and make him submit, I'd give Hershal Walker good odds of beating him.
Hell maybe even Mark Kerr
On this bright side maybe Toney won't get punched in the head for another 12 rounds so he can further slur his words. I can't beleive a state athletic commision would even allow this.
Posted By: Guest (Guest) on March 10, 2010 at 12:39 AM
i say james toney win 1 or more for one reason the reason everyone seems to have forgotten all fights start standing up and toney has world class boxing when compared to others in mma and everyone will have the same game plan when fighting him so all it takes is a half hearted takedown or worst some dumb ass wanting to stand with him and it will be "lights out" no pun intended
Posted By: Guest#4748 (Guest) on March 10, 2010 at 01:34 AM
i was having a discussion with a coworker. when it comes to pro-athletes. there is no such thing as a gradual decline. there is no erosion. they are on top of their game one day, they their skills fall off the map. just a sudden disappearance.
just look at the premiere athletes in any sport. it is down right sad.
Posted By: rey (Guest) on March 10, 2010 at 10:41 AM
On what basis will Kimbo Slice be able to take James Toney down with ease? A couple of years of training NOT to get taken down? Scott, you're talking like Kimbo is a legit MMA fighter. He's not. He's now a refined street fighter who can box legitimately and defend himself properly. But on what basis - what BASIS - is he suddenly pretty reasonable at takedowns?
I agree that Toney's takedown defence is PROBABLY near zero until he's trained and had a few fights; but that doesn't mean Kimbo is good at them either. So there's probably an equilibrium of inability with Kimbo's takedowns and Toney's takedown defence.
Posted By: Jon (Guest) on March 10, 2010 at 10:55 AM
Toney will not increase buy rates one iota. Yeah he was a champion boxer, but casual fans either don't know who he is, or don't care. Bad move on the UFC's part.
Posted By: guest guest (Guest) on March 10, 2010 at 12:00 PM
Kimbo took down Houston Alexander, who has trained in MMA for a while, so I don't think he'll have a problem dumping Toney.
Posted By: Kuch7 (Registered) on March 10, 2010 at 02:24 PM
If the sport were to die today or no fighter would improve beyond what we see today, than Jen's could go down as one of the top five 155lb fighters. He sits behind Penn and Gomi in my opinion and if Aoki's stand-up improves Jenn will sit behind him.
Posted By: K. Bett (Guest) on March 10, 2010 at 02:38 PM
"I'm looking forward to this fight because I want to see Gilbert destroy Aoki and expose him as a mediocre fighter"
THIS!!! Thank you scott
Posted By: Haku (Guest) on March 10, 2010 at 08:31 PM
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