411 MMA Fact or Fiction 01.11.12: King Mo/Strikeforce, MMA Dream Fight, More

Posted by Todd Bergman on 01.11.2012

Does King Mo re-signing with Strikeforce make sense? Is Luke Rockhold Strikeforce’s major draw? Will MMA ever be able to produce a Mayweather/Pacquaio style dream fight? 411’s Alex Watt & Wyatt Beougher debate these topics and more!

Welcome back to the ultra popular and legendary 411 MMA: Fact or Fiction. I'm your host Todd Bergman and this week we have a terrific match up for all of you blood thirsty keyboard warriors. This week's match up pits Alex Watt against Wyatt Beougher. On the heels of last week's highly viewed article, we return with some tough questions surrounding last weekend's Strikeforce show and some general MMA questions as well. Before getting into the introductions, I want to apologize for the lack of UFC 142 questions because honestly, I don't find the show that interesting. Outside of the Aldo/Mendes fight and Etim/Barboza, this card looks like another crappy overseas UFC card. I'm going to spare all of you the lecture that I generally give overseas cards because I don't think that the UFC generally cares about promoting the events and usually they are awful to watch. I'm not the type of person to tell you how to spend your money but then again, I'm generally broke and don't have the extra money to spend on poorly put together cards.

With all of the negativity out of the way, let me talk about Mendes/Aldo and give you my guarantee for this fight. I heard Dana White on the Jim Rome show yesterday afternoon and Dana was kind enough to spend 2 minutes talking about this card and I was shocked at how fast he was dismissing Mendes in this fight. White talked about how Aldo finishes fights (even though he hasn't finished a fight under the UFC banner) and how exciting the guy is as a fighter. I'm not trying to criticize Aldo because he's a wonderful athlete but I didn't find his fight with Kenny Florian to be exciting and maybe that's because Florian was trying to "Randy Couture" Aldo against the cage while Kenny's brother constantly screwed "undahooks" throughout the whole fight. Call me crazy but I like Mendes in this fight. I think that he has the striking and wrestling ability to dictate the pace and control Aldo. This of course will set off the Brazilian crowd and that in turn leads to boos and trash flying in the Octagon post fight circa a Hulk Hogan heel turn. One can only hope that Joe Rogan gets smashed in the face with a beer like Mean Gene did during that Hulk Hogan heel turn. What I'm trying to say here is that Mendes is being overlooked because he's not Jose Aldo and that's a damn shame because Chad "Money" Mendes is a great freaking fighter. Now onto the introductions.




This week's FoF combatants are:

Blue Corner: Alex Watt
Nickname: "Mega"
Fighting out of: Cobra Dojo
FoF Record: 1-5
411 Column: MMA Contributor

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Blue Corner: Wyatt Beougher
Nickname: "Biggy"
Fighting out of: Carson Palmer's Guest House
FoF Record: 3-3
411 Column: MMA Contributor

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1.) Luke Rockhold is the most marketable fighter that Strikeforce has to offer.

Alex Watt: FICTION Although Luke Rockhold is a talented young fighter and one of the few exciting prospects that Strikeforce actually has left, I cannot agree that he is their most marketable fighter.

Remember that Strikeforce have one of the world's premier lightweights as their champion; Gilbert Melendez. He is the main man whom the company should be pushing, such is the talent that the Skrap Pack alumni possesses. Also, Strikeforce still have Muhammed Lawal aka "King Mo" under contract, one of the most entertaining individuals in the sport. With his over the top entrances and brash personality, King Mo is a man whom Strikeforce should be getting firmly behind as one of their top stars. Then there are the female athletes such as Meisha Tate and Ronda Rousey, both of whom are making waves in the MMA world and who's title fight will likely draw in a lot of interest. Both are talented and attractive and thus very marketable for Strikeforce. Scott Coker, if he has any sense, needs to promote his female bantamweight division strongly since it is something which other MMA promotions simply do not offer. I was even going to argue that Tim Kennedy, as a man who serves full time in the U.S. Army alongside his MMA career, would be more marketable than Rockhold, but then I remembered that he (like so many Strikeforce fighters) is UFC bound.

This is nothing against Rockhold, mind you. Strikeforce do need to get behind the 27 year old and market him properly. He has now defeated two tough MMA veterans in Ronaldo Souza and Keith Jardine and if the promotion truly get behind him then he could become one of their top stars. Finding a challenging opponent for him would be the best next step in that process. But I'd place Rockhold, right now at least, as fifth in the marketable pecking order for Strikeforce behind Melendez, King Mo, Tate and Rousey.

Wyatt Beougher: FICTION While I can't agree with Watt that Rockhold is behind Tate and Rousey (simply because, in the end, Zuffa owns Strikeforce and Zuffa, in the personage of Dana White, isn't going to put any marketing behind female fighters, I do agree that both Melendez and King Mo (and arguably Mousasi) are more marketable than Rockhold. For a somewhat similar situation, look at when Mike Brown and Brian Bowles beat the much more marketable Urijah Faber and Miguel Torres, respectively, in WEC, with both guys becoming out-of-the-blue champions in their weight divisions. Like Rockhold, they were basically bland white guys without the charisma of the champions they dethroned, so they didn't become overnight big-money draws. Unlike Brown and Bowles, Rockhold didn't even have the advantage of beating a marketable champion, as Jacare, for as wonderful as his ground game is, speaks no English and wasn't a very marketable fighter.

And a win over Keith Jardine in Strikeforce's middleweight division in 2012 doesn't have the same impact as it would've if Jardine was coming off of a victory over Forrest Griffin or Chuck Liddell. So while Rockhold has all the talent in the world, he also has all the personality of a doorknob and the unfortunate distinction of being the champion of a four-fighter division (and that's being generous). If he keeps winning in dominant fashion, he could very well become Strikeforce's most marketable fighter; however, he's just not there yet.

SCORE: 1-1

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2.) Tyron Woodley's performance is being unfairly criticized by the MMA media.

Alex Watt: FICTION Although I would usually agree that the MMA media and fans are being a bit too harsh on a fighter (Georges St. Pierre is a prime example of a fighter who often comes under unwarranted criticism for not finishing fights), there is simply no way I can defend Tyron Woodley's performance in his fight against Jordan Mein on Saturday. Sure it was dominant but it was one of the most irritating examples of that old adage "lay and pray" that I have seen in a long time.

As a long time fan of Mixed Martial Arts, as well as someone who writes about the sport on a weekly basis, I love the ground game. I understand all the little nuances and I applaud fighters who can inflict damage on their opponent whilst keeping them grounded or a fighter who can cleverly work towards a submission whilst controlling their foe. However, Woodley did neither of those things. He made no attempts to advance his position or pass Mein's guard. Or to create space and land punches. Or to work towards a submission. He just lay there inside Mein's closed guard pinning the Canadian to the mat. It was dull and it was uninspiring. [Oh and comparing Woodley's performance to a Georges St. Pierre win is idiotic, in my opinion. GSP always looks to pass guard, stays active on the ground, constantly postures up to land ground and pound and always works towards submissions. Woodley did none of those things.]

Now, of course, the most important thing is that Woodley got the "W" (as fighters are want to say). However, Woodley showed little to no improvement over his last win (against Paul Daley). In fact, he looked to have taken a step backwards. Plus, as dominant as the win was, the fact that Woodley only won via split decision shows that simply trying to grind out a win by lying on your opponent will not always work. Different judges look for different things and perhaps the judge who oddly gave Mein the nod was recognising that Mein was actually making more attempts to, you know, finish the fight from the bottom than Woodley was from the top.

Woodley will not doubt spout that "a win is a win, no matter how you get it" over the next few weeks but the fact of the matter is that if Woodley wants to build a fanbase then he needs to turn in more exciting performances than this. The live crowd booed this fight out of the building and, for once, I am fully on their side. In fact, the only people excited about this fight on the planet it would seem were Tyron Woodley and Tyron Woodley's wife. As a fighter who is probably going to be chosen to fight for the vacant Strikeforce Welterweight Championship (and probably win it), Woodley needs to look better than this lest he become the least watched world champion of all time.

Wyatt Beougher: FICTION First off, kudos to Alex for using "whilst" twice in the same sentence - you'd never guess he was British, using proper English like that. Also, I'd like to point out that often GSP just passes guard to look semi-active and ensure that he doesn't get a stand up, when he'd be much further ahead to stay in his opponent's guard, posture up, and land some of the beautiful ground and pound that he used to utilize before he became a black belt in SmotherHump style. As for the question at hand, Woodley is an overconfident jackass who said before his fight that he had no interest in rematching Tarec Saffiedine, and then basically went on to trash Saffiedine and the opponents he has faced. He then went on to run down Paul Daley (which is okay, because Daley is a class A douchebag), but to talk all that trash and then go out and have a stinker of a fight like that? Inexcusable. Honestly, it reminds of Rashad promising to stand and bang with Rampage and then going out and humping him for three rounds.

Since Alex qualified his position, let me go one better - I was a wrestler in elementary school through high school and most of my favorite fighters (Couture, Henderson, Bones, Sonnen) are/have been wrestlers; however, I absolutely detest the lay and pray style of fighting. In high school wrestling, they did away with "ride time" points roughly two decades ago (at least in Pennsylvania) because it encouraged a wrestler who started in top position in the second or third round to just cling to his opponent's back and do nothing for the entire round - not exactly sporting, if you've ever seen it. MMA needs to do something similar, overhauling their scoring system to not put so much credence in "the fighter on top wins the round/fight", because I'll admit that guys like Woodley and Sean Sherk have abused the current scoring system to the detriment of the fans and the sport itself.

SCORE: 2-2

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3.) "King" Mo Lawal's decision to re-sign with Strikeforce makes sense to you.

Alex Watt: FICTION Although the word coming from King Mo himself is that he had very little choice in sticking with the San Jose promotion, the fact is that if he has opted to stay there of his own volition, does it really make sense to anyone? Sure, it could be argued that the entertaining light heavyweight is content being a big fish in a small pond but really what else can he achieve in Strikeforce? He has already been the champion and besides avenging his defeat to Rafael Cavalcante, there is really noone else of note for him to fight in the Hexagon.

Muhammed Lawal would be a fantastic addition to the UFC's light heavyweight roster which will soon run out of challengers for champion Jon Jones if "Bones" keeps looking as dominant as he has so far. After all, there is really only Rashad Evans and Dan Henderson left as viable challengers to the 24 year old so a fighter like King Mo, if he were to get on a decent run of wins inside the Octagon, could present another challenger to the UFC belt. Plus, I think we all want to see Lawal and "Rampage" Jackson throw down. The two men have been calling each other out for a while now and the trash talk alone would make the fight a must see.

There are, quite simply, more options for King Mo in the UFC. Strikeforce, as Lawal has noted on several occasions, is on its last legs and noone would have blamed the man for jumping ship. For whatever reason he has opted to stay in Strikeforce for the time being but, no, the decision does not make sense to me.

Wyatt Beougher: FACT Regardless of whether or not Mo had the option to jump to the UFC, staying in Strikeforce is the right decision. He lost to Feijao, who would be a mid-tier light heavyweight in the UFC, at best. Lawal is much better suited to staying in Strikeforce for another contract duration, at least, to build up his name and improve his game. Tell me this - do you think he could beat Machida, Rashad, or even Rampage or Forrest? I don't, and I think he'd get slaughtered by Bones, so why make the jump if he's only going to be a mid-level guy at this point in his career?

Let him run through the Strikeforce light heavyweight division (or at least attempt to), and then if there's no Showtime renewal at the end of 2012, move him to the UFC. And, if there is a Strikeforce renewal at the end of this year, it'll be because of fighters like King Mo and Gilbert Melendez, who people will actually tune in to see. So yeah, it makes sense from a career standpoint for Mo, and also from a business standpoint for Zuffa, so I have to go with FACT here.

SCORE: 2-3

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VIDEO INTERMISSION

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4.) Anthony Johnson will be a championship contender at 185lbs.

Wyatt Beougher: FACT In most circles, Belfort is a top-five middleweight (or, at the very least, top 10). I dislike Rumble immensely due to his proclivity for missing weight; however, I look for him to destroy Belfort, at which point, he'd likely be matched up with someone like Brian Stann or the loser of the Sonnen/Munoz fight (Munoz). Unless he has to fight Chael (and he won't, unless it's for the Middleweight Championship), I'd favor him in either of those fights, and I'm actually anxious to see just how scary Johnson will be when he's not totally drained from a weight cut that was dangerously stupid of him to continue making.

Just from a "Tale of the Tape" perspective, Rumble isn't much different than Anderson Silva, with both guys standing 6'2" and having a similar reach, so it's not like moving up a weight class will put him at a disadvantage. Johnson has knockout power in his hands and feet and that's not going to go away, and he should also be quicker at 185, because, as I mentioned, he's not making an almost-fifty pound weight cut.

Alex Watt: FICTION Whilst I do believe that Anthony Johnson could be a championship contender, if I'm putting my neck out there and making a prediction on his future in the middleweight division then I have to say that I don't think he will be a championship contender at 185lbs.

The fact of the matter is that as impressive as Johnson has often looked at welterweight - showing off great wrestling, striking and KO power - all we have really seen from "Rumble" is him beating up smaller fighters. His performance against Charlie Brenneman was the icing on the cake in that regard as he used his ridiculous size and weight advantage as a way to pin down Brenneman's head and batter him with punches. Not the most skilful attack (although the head kick was sweet). Plus, against a top level fighter at 170lbs like Josh Koscheck, Johnson came completely unstuck and simply could not compete with a fighter of that level. Who is to say then that "Rumble" is going to be able to hang with the top fighters at 185lbs? After all, several of the top middleweights have strong wrestling backgrounds (Sonnen, Munoz, Okami) which is exactly what Johnson had trouble with against Koscheck. Johnson would likely have to get past at least one of those wrestlers to get towards title contention.

Saying all that, I also don't see him beating Vitor Belfort this weekend in Brazil. It is a fight which could go either way since both fighters have great striking, plus I expect "Rumble" will look to fall back on his wrestling skills as a way to control "The Phenom". Despite this, I just cannot envision Johnson being able to deal with the hand speed and explosive power of Belfort. I think it will be a painful welcome to the UFC's Middleweight division for Johnson because at some point I feel that Belfort will land a flurry to render "Rumble" unconscious in Brazil.

SCORE: 2-4

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5.) Ronda Rousey vs. Miesha Tate is the best possible match up to spark interest in Women's MMA.

Wyatt Beougher: FACT Uh, with SheBorg's failed steroid test and Carano essentially retired, what other fight is there? While neither Tate nor Rousey is as frightening as SheBorg in the cage (although Rousey's total career of 4 minutes and some-odd seconds over SEVEN FIGHTS is worth arguing), nor as attractive as Gina, both ladies are not only skilled in the cage, but also easy on the eyes. Add in the fact that Rousey talks like she has Chael Sonnen writing her material and that it has obviously gotten under Tate's skin in the past (I follow Tate on Twitter and she was very emotional/childish about Rousey calling her out, even though she said it didn't bother her), and you've got the makings of a fight that could ignite some serious interest in Women's MMA.

Of course, Strikeforce won't give it decent promotion and they probably won't announce that the winner of the night's earlier Sarah Kaufman/Alexis Davis fight as the official number one contender until both the champion and the newly-crowned challenger have lost all momentum, and this all becomes a moot point...

Alex Watt: FACT Absolutely this is the biggest fight for women's MMA right now. I've stressed on several occasions in my column how important this fight could prove to be for women's MMA and also for Strikeforce, and I stand by it now.

With a failed drugs test Cristiane "Cyborg" Santos sees her status as pound for pound best female in the sport fall by the wayside and the 145lbs division is now all but dead. Therefore, it is up to Strikeforce to throw all their weight behind the women's bantamweight division and promote it as an exciting division which no other MMA promotion can offer.

Meisha Tate and Ronda Rousey are the two most talked about female fighters in Mixed Martial Arts right now. Tate is coming off the performance of her career as she became the first woman to submit BJJ black belt Marloes Coenen. Rousey, meanwhile, is one of the breakout stars of 2011 with four super quick armbar victories. Plus, her fantastic self promotion and inspired trash talking has seen her thrown into this title fight with Tate after just those four pro fights. In addition, both women are stunning; a factor which is only going to help their case in a sport watched primarily by young men. Oh and both are very talented meaning that unlike Cyborg's fights this contest between Tate and Rousey is an evenly matched affair which makes it highly compelling.

The question now is whether Strikeforce will have the guts to place this women's 135lbs title fight as the main event of their March 3rd card. They placed the Cyborg Vs. Carano contest of 2009 as the first ever main event between two female fighters for a major MMA show and it paid dividends for the company. By properly hyping the fight and the skills of both ladies, the company drew 576,000 viewers for Showtime and got many people talking about women's MMA. This has the potential to do just as well but that is dependant on Strikeforce and, indeed, the self promotion skills of the two ladies involved. If this fight has the right hype behind it then it has the potential to push women's MMA to even higher heights.

SCORE: 3-5

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6.) MMA will never produce a true dream match up like Floyd Mayweather vs. Manny Pacquiao.

Wyatt Beougher: FICTION Did I miss something here? Did Mayweather/Pacquiao get announced and I was completely unaware of it because I'm currently in Vegas? No? So boxing can't even produce a true dream match up like Floyd Mayweather vs. Manny Pacquiao? Okay, just checking.

In all seriousness, you could argue that Randy/Fedor (or, later, Brock/Fedor) was MMA's Mayweather/Pacquiao, but let's assume that MMA hasn't produced a dream fight in that class yet (which really is more of a fact than an assumption, but I digress). Boxing has been around in its current incarnation essentially since 1867 - that's almost a century and a half. American MMA has barely been around for a decade and a half (and has only been operating under its current rules since 2001), which provides quite a disparity and at least partially accounts for boxing's continued popularity over MMA.

The one factor that really works against MMA having a dream fight like that is also boxing's biggest downfall, ironically enough. Unlike boxing, with its million governing bodies, titles, and disparate managers, MMA in North America is essentially confined to Zuffa. Sure, Bellator is around, but since the UFC purchased WEC and Strikeforce (and really, since they purchased PRIDE), all the best/most marketable talent is under the Zuffa banner, which means fans don't have to pine nearly as long for "dream fights". Eventually, though, (and probably far sooner than 140 years from now) there will be a match-up between two guys that fans can't wait to see, and I think Dana and company (or their successors, maybe) will figure out how long to hold off on it before having the fight, because the fan anticipation is a necessary condition for a fight to take on the proportions of Mayweather/Pacquiao.

Alex Watt: FICTION As Wyatt correctly notes, Boxing has over 100 years on Mixed Martial Arts and with MMA still very much in its infancy it seems far too early to make the assertion that the sport will never produce a clash of the magnitude of a Mayweather Jr. Vs. Pacquaio bout.

For that matter, Boxing hasn't even managed to put together the "Money" Vs. "Pacman" fight that is so clamoured for, despite over five years of opportunities to make it happen. In fact, whilst we're on this subject how many times in recent memory have the Boxing promoters actually put together the big fights which the fans really want to see? Apart from Wladimir Klitschko Vs. David Haye (and the less said about the actual fight the better) and perhaps Mayweather's fight with Ricky Hatton and Pacquaio's third tilt with Juan Manuel Marquez, you probably have to go back to 2002 when Lennox Lewis and a past his prime Mike Tyson threw down. Compare that to the UFC which presents phenomenal title fights every few months or so and it seems harsh to criticise the world's premier MMA organisation for its failure to treat the fans to a clash between two of the pound for pound kings and best box office draws.

Right now, of course, the equivalent of Floyd Mayweather Jr. Vs. Manny Pacquaio in the UFC is either a showdown between Anderson Silva and Georges St. Pierre or between Silva and Jon Jones. The former looks unlikely to ever happen now since "The Spider" is likely a few fights away from retirement whilst GSP is currently on the shelf due to injury, with a wealth of new challenges at 170lbs awaiting him upon his return. "Bones" Jones still has business to take care of in the light heavyweight division too, with both Dan Henderson and Rashad Evans awaiting their title shots against the 24 year old. Nevertheless, there is a chance that Silva Vs. Jones could happen, if both can defeat their immediate challengers and remain injury free going into 2013. Who's to say that Dana White and the UFC brass could not then convince Silva to take on Jones in the Brazilian's farewell fight? If it did happen, it would render the argument that the UFC cannot offer a fight of such magnitude obsolete.

Even if that fight never comes to fruition though, can we really claim that if MMA continues for another century that a box office extravaganza of a showdown between two of the sport's pound for pound best will never happen? No. If the UFC maintains its business model and continues to put on the fights that the fans want to see then of course we will be treated to such a fight. Sooner or later.

SCORE: 4-6

Both guys agreed more then I thought that they would this week. I was interested in seeing how both approached the Strikeforce draw and King Mo questions. To be honest with you, Strikeforce's biggest draw is Gina Carano. I would be willing to bet that if you asked anyone on the street, they would be more likely to name her than Gil Melendez or anyone else based on Gina's upcoming movie or just the simple fact that she's been in ESPN Magazine and Maxim. The King Mo question is a hot topic amongst MMA writers because Mo talks a lot of trash on Twitter and in the media about Rampage Jackson and countless other UFC fighters. I was the first to criticize Mo about re-signing (Thanks Wyatt) with Strikeforce until I saw the payouts from the show. The guy got a tremendous amount of money and I can understand why he re-signed with the company. Anyway, it's up to you the fans to once again decide the winner here. Come back next week as Jon Butterfield returns to action against the surprising rookie Robert Winfree. Remember to support your local MMA and keep your tapping hand strong.

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411mania MMA Fact or Fiction Scoreboard!

Larry Csonka: 8-1

Samer Kadi: 5-5-1

Jeffrey Harris: 4-8

Todd Vote: 4-7

Scott Kuczkowski: 8-6

Jonathan Solomon: 4-2-1

Steve Cook: 4-2

Dan Plunkett: 7-2

Todd Bergman: 4-1

Dustin James: 1-5

MMA Fighter Jason High: 1-0

Jon Butterfield: 3-4

Mark Radulich: 3-5

Alex Watt: 1-5

Stewart Lange: 3-2

Wyatt Beougher: 3-3

Jeremy Lambert: 4-1

Jack Bramma: 0-1

Robert Winfree: 1-1