Planet Tapout 3.18.08: Answering Your Emails!

Posted by Lotfi Sariahmed on 03.18.2008

Planet Tapout works for the people. And in this week's edition 411Mania's Lotfi Sariahmed responds to your comments and emails on Fedor and the rankings!

Welcome to the MMA column that enjoys the occasional game of Blackjack (but doesn't understand ANY of the strategies)! It's Planet Tapout here at 411Mania.com and this is the man who (almost) always plays his cards right, Lotfi Sariahmed. Last week's Planet Tapout on Fedor and rankings brought in a lot of buzz. So lets go see what the mailbag has for us this week.

Mailbag!

Romano leads off the comments defending the Russian heavyweight:

Big difference between fedor and gomi...gomi got beat by nick diaz....oh wait, that performance enhancing pot helped him out....here's the real dilemma, name a heavyweight you'd rank above fedor...let me go through your possibilites.....Randy Couture - 8 career losses, knocked out twice by a light heavyweight...beat an injured sylvia and an over rated gonzaga...next...Big Nog - lost to Fedor twice....Barnett - couldn't get past "Cro Cop"...still have to wonder if he's juiced...Sylvia - not after losing two of three....who outranks fedor??? Fedor's credentials - defeated crocop when that meant something (ranked 2nd in the world)...beat big nog twice...survived the randleplex...rings champ.... the man has done it all. Sorry his competition was lacking the year his promotion went out of business...how asinine...he cleaned out his division and then the company went belly up on him...Lindland was a chance for him to fight in Russia...and fighting a giant was so he could fight in Japan...sorry he didn't sign with a promotion where the President called him and his management team crazy Russians...the conversation makes my head hurt.... let's see what he does this year and if he fails to fight a top competitor and if someone comes along that is worthy of the top spot, then you can write this article...'till then you're just being silly...gomi and fedor in the same sentence, effin blasphemy....to quote a rassler...to be the man, you gotta beat the man...

Romano I understand your point about Fedor but this also brings in another point of my argument that I addressed last week. When the man cares more about money than he does fighting the best, (I'm not saying its right or wrong, its just fact) what are you going to do about rankings? Trust me, I understand how great Fedor is and what he's done but at what point do you say, "Stop resting on your laurels?"


Adam continues the conversation with my favorite comment of the week:

Fedor > Everyone

Can't argue with that.


Woody's here and coming to my defense it seems like:

Name a HW over Fedor? Big Nog. True, Fedor beat his ass twice in 2003 and 2004 (not to mention the NC in 2004), but that was FOUR YEARS ago. Since then, a lot has changed. Right now, Nog is on the top of the division in the premier promotion while Fedor has fought people in lower weight classes and freakshow candidates.

Disclaimer: I'm a UFC fan. Always have been. Still, I can only respect a man who's gone 27-1-1 career, but unless Fedor starts fighting REAL opponents again, he no longer is neither the best HW (Big Nog is) nor the best P4P (Spider is) in the world. There are a bunch of HWs in the sport who could've demolished Lindland and/or Choi. The HW division is in the toilet these days. One can only hope some credible talent shows up.

Clearly you've pulled the plug already Woody in terms of Fedor being #1 and I can't blame you. Many are hesitant to do it because of how good he is and even then still won't do anything. But I can't blame you for moving forward UFC fan or not.


Romano on the other hand is back and he could blame Woody for being a UFC fan:

Woody -- your opinion is devalued just by you saying that you're a UFC fan...it's like saying that you're a Don King fan, or a Golden Boy Promotions fan...it's a promotion, it has a nice presentation, but still it's a promotion...I'm a fan of MMA...the sport…Big Nog is number one based on surviving against Heath Herring and barely surviving against Tim Sylvia? It's a joke, and not even a funny one...Big Nog is the second greatest heavyweight of this generation, but you don't leapfrog a guy that dominated you twice (and was on his way to doing it again) by beating Heath Herring (barely) and catching Sylvia after being demolished for nearly three rounds...Oh and Anderson Silva lost via flying heel hook...lost to a cat that was 4-7 at the time and has gotten on your radar by dominating a weak division. Other than Rich Franklin, give me the impressive wins...leben, marquardt, lutter are all just guys and Dan Henderson's best days are probably behind him at this point. But Dana White says that "The Spider" is p4p so it must be true...I'm so tired of "noobies" on the Internet drinking the UFC kool-aid...and just for the record, I'm not a fan of any promotion, I respect the sport, and the fighters and I feel that exclusive contracts screw the fans.

Again, the argument isn't about all-time talent. It's about what have you done for me lately and if you want rankings to resemble what's going on now then I understand putting "Big Nog" on top. This leads to the big question of what rankings are supposed to be? So UFC fan or not he makes a valid point. As for your comments regarding Silva, I completely disagree. I understand the middleweight division in the UFC isn't the best. Heck I went off on it last week. But the pound for pound list is even MORE subjective than a divisional rankings list making it hard to rip on Silva for reaching the top. In addition, he's beat Rich Franklin twice who is still a talented fighter despite those losses. If Franklin comes out at UFC 83 and loses to Travis Lutter it might be a different story but right now its hard not to put him up there. And as for Dan Henderson, lets relax before putting him in the "over the hill" category. The man lost to Quinton Jackson and Anderson Silva who just happen to be the #1 ranked fighters in the world in their respective divisions. Not too bad last I checked.


And because Romano said Dan Henderson was "over the hill," here's Hendo chiming in (no not that Hendo):

Romano, are you sure you are not a "noob" because silva losing that fight was a freak loss, and he is clearly the top p4p guy in the world and Dan Henderson is still in his prime. Fedor beat a guy with one professional fight and was getting pounded out by him until he went for the armbar, but then lost it, and then proceeded to get pounded on after he pulled guard and then got the armbar... on a guy with one professional fight, and who was a kickboxer.... with virtually no ground game, because of injuries, and lack of experience.... And comparing boxing promoters to MMA promotions is disrespectful.... that's like comparing soccer to baseball.... two completely different sports.

While I'll let the two of you handle your Silva beef outside, you make a good general point on comparing boxing to MMA because there is no point. And the Fedor point you make just goes to the bigger idea of, "What have you done for me lately?"


Craig continues the Fedor discussion and sees the light:

I still think Fedor is the best and would tool Nogueira again but at this time I would give Nogueira the #1 spot in the Heavyweight rankings for beating Barnett and Sylvia in the time frame Fedor has beaten Hunt (i am excluding non ranked heavy's). Rankings in MMA aren't relevant in my opinion because the fighters are spread across different orgs with the exception of the WW division which is chalk full of talent in the UFC. The Lightweight division has two halves - those that fight for Dream/WVR and those that fight for the UFC. Middleweight is mainly in the UFC but there is some great talent outside it also (lindland, akiyama, kang, misaki). LHW is another that I would consider rankings to be possible since most are in the UFC. Heavyweight is a mess, pure and simple. At this point the BEST (heavyweight) fighters aren't in the UFC besides Nog and Sylvia. Barnett, Fedor and Couture are all elsewhere or trying to get out of the UFC. In a perfect world Fedor signs with the UFC and Nog would fight Couture first with the winner fighting Fedor. It would be a disgrace to Nog to not give him first shot since he is the interim champ.

Your point on Fedor is basically what I've been trying to say. Are rankings relevant in MMA? It's worthy of discussion and I could understand saying that they're not. But the sport is growing very quickly and while promoters may be stubborn the MMA media certainly is not. Ideally the promoters will catch up to the rest of the MMA world (media and fans included).


Kuch goes all philosophical like on rankings:

Rankings – Who really belongs where? It's nearly impossible to say, and honestly, there isn't a system out there that cannot be disputed. A person cannot definitely say that Fighter A will beat Fighter B, just because Fighter A beat Fighter C and Fighter C beat Fighter B. It doesn't work that way.

Take a look at Fedor. Not many people have looked too good against Fedor, but the truth is that at this point, most people will go into a fight with him looking to not lose, instead of looking to establish their game plan. On top of that, there is a lot of talent out there that Fedor hasn't been tested against. We (as fans) cannot look at a fighter in the UFC and judge by their win/loss record how well they would do against Fedor. It's not fair; and history has shown us that success in the ring does not translate to success in the octagon. Another case in point is CroCop. The guy was a beast in Pride but not even good in the Octagon. The differences in the environment and the level of competition do make a difference and anyone who says otherwise is only shouting at the rain.

Possibly the only fair way to have rankings is to rank people by organization. You cannot look at a guy like Couture and a guy like Fedor and attempt to fairly rank one over the other. They haven't even fought any common opponents in a common arena (not that it would even matter), so how can we say one is much better than the other? I know, you're going to say they both fought Randleman, but I still contend that the fights were 4 years apart and in different surroundings (ring/octagon).

Another point about rankings is that they rarely take into account flukes. Everyone walking into a fight knows that there will be a loser and winner, but figuring out who did better and who propelled themselves up the rankings is totally subjective. If Serra beats GSP again (which was widely considered a fluke the first time), does that really mean he is better? Or does he just have GSP's number? If Tim Sylvia knocked out Fedor, would that make Sylvia the best in the world? What if he just hung on Fedor and won a split decision? What would that say?

The truth is that Fedor isn't the best because he hasn't beaten everyone else out there. And quite honestly, he probably won't ever have a chance to fight everyone else. Until that day, there is always a chance someone can catch him and stop him.

So, here we are ranking fighters. But what are we actually ranking? The BEST? Or the FAVORITES?

Great points all around Kuch. I will say this though. Wouldn't rankings work a lot better if they were meant to show what fighters have done in the here and now? Again, make the rankings about what have you done for me lately and it could solve a lot of the problems you discuss.


Kyle Hyde has a bone to pick with Romano:

For Romano Couture defeated Sylvia FAIR AND SQUARE, should I name the numbers of guys who went into a fight WITH INJURIES before ? No cause it would take me one year to name them all.

So that's again a LAME EXCUSE to both minimize the terrific performance of one Randy Couture and the lame one of one Tim Sylvia.

Captain America owned and pwned "The Maine-iac" FAIR and SQUARE.

Anyone else claiming so is either a blind couture hater or a blind Sylvia mark (probably both IMO).

Second, he lost to a ROID Barnett, why don't you bring that in?

Funny you don't and btw Barnett is one of the best heavyweights in the world and easily on the Top 10.

Second he defeated Gonzaga who totally creamed "Cro Cop" (who was labeled (as the) "second best heavy in the world after Fedor" based on his Pride achievements).

Again that was a great performance and if you talk about the unintentional "headbutt" which lead to the Gonzaga injury then why not talk about the BROKEN ARM Captain sustained at the same time in this very fight?

Yeah a broken arm and he finished the fight and won it.

PERIOD.

Couture is one of the greatest MMA fighters of all time and deserves all kind of praises for that.

It's not about the number of losses, its about the quality of the wins and the opponents.

There's no shame in losing TWICE to someone who is A HUGE LIGHT HEAVY like "The Iceman" and the first loss was courtesy of a beautiful "eye poke" by Chuck...Funny you don't remind (us of that) right?

FACT is Captain is a the UFC Heavy Champ NOT Big Nog .

Fact TWO Fedor IS the greatest heavy in history.

Fact THREE a lot of people, Dana White, Fedor and Captain themselves just WANT to do that fight and enjoy it .

It will happen sooner than later and probably before the end of the year.

Count on it!!!!!

Note to all readers; tread lightly before ripping on Randy Couture. He has a fan base. And as for the Fedor v. Couture fight, find me a person who doesn't want to see that happen.


Kyle Hyde's not done and defends Dan Henderson.

Hendo Romano is obviously a noob next to MMA and doesn't have a single clue about what makes a great fighter and not.

Captain A is one of the greatest EVER.

Ask Fedor or anyone what they think about Couture.

Four Times UFC Champ, champ in two different divisions.

Same for Henderson.

He is a fantastic fighter who was able to dominate Rampage for two rounds and losing only on the very last rounds and seconds via decision.

He pwned Wanderlei Silva fair and square (something The Iceman could NOT)

He lost to the best fighter in the world, pound for pound via submission AFTER nearly making Silva taping out and dominating him like no one else was about to do in the UFC so far.

Henderson is definitively one of the top fighters in the world and he has lost against two of the very best fighters in the world on a row, with NO REAL SHAME.
.
He should take on the winner of Ortiz/Machida or Liddell/Shogun and he would show the world how GREAT he is in his real category aka Light Heavy One.

Note to all readers; tread lightly before ripping on Dan Henderson. Though as for his next opponent I'd like to see him go to light heavyweight as well just for the potential match-ups.


Daniel chimed in e-mail style with his thoughts on Fedor and the rankings:

Not trying to say that Fedor's not the world's greatest (cause apparently that will cause a collective aneurysm in the MMA community), but who exactly has Fedor beat? I know he's won, but has he actually finished a legit heavyweight? "Cro Cop" and Nog were decisioned and other than that, I see finishes over guys that are too big, too small, too slow or too green. He needed a cut to beat Herring, a decision to beat Schilt, and even needed the judges to beat Sobral! Isn't the best fighter supposed to finish competitors and cans alike (hello "Spider" and "Rush")? And weren't we (and by this I mean me) giving Tim Sylvia a hard time for not finishing people? You asked who would be favoured against Fedor? Who would Fedor be favoured against? Tim could out-decision Fedor using his length (and sheer boredom). Does Fedor possess more speed and better Sambo that Arlovski (nobody knows)? Is he stronger with a better ground game than Gonzaga (if he only had a heart)? Could you ever bet against Randy (dirty boxing ahoy!)? Isn't the fourth time the charm for Nog (what's that, no, oh, ok then)? Take a look at other heavyweights and they at least have finished a top guy. Does Fedor just fight not to lose against top guys? If he's fighting not to lose (what, who said Gomi?) then he's not a real champion and in my books not much of a fighter (ah, there's the aneurysm). If he is fighting to finish, where's the finish?

Daniel my man you took both sides of an argument just then and I understood what you were saying up until that point. You can't get on Fedor for not finishing guys then get on MMA fans for ragging on Sylvia because he doesn't finish guys. You can't have it both ways. Is there something to finishing your opponents consistently and being held in a certain light? Absolutely. Tim Sylvia gives us that perfect example. It's definitely a discussion worth having though. Is it better to be exciting or to win fights? And yes, Fedor hasn't fought Arlovski or Gonzaga or Sylvia or Couture, but to say he's not at least one of the best heavyweights of all-time is absurd. Go back and watch the Randleman fight.



Who takes care of you? Planet Tapout does.


Todd has his thoughts on the middleweight division and rankings after last week's column:

Here is an interesting suggestion. Why don't we just have a separate top ten list? I mean you obviously have the 411 rankings for each division, so why not have a total separate ranking system, something based on a fighters' marketability. For instance...
(Please note that these rankings do not necessarily reflect my views of the top fighters, and more than likely anyone else's views either, they are used strictly for the purpose of illustrating my idea about a separate ranking.)

UFC middleweight fighter rankings
1. Anderson Silva (P4P the best))
2. Yushin Okami (next in line?)
3. Rich Franklin (Becoming a gatekeeper?)
4. Michael Bisping (untested at middleweight, could be a force)
5. Dan Henderson (lost two straight, but to two top guys)
6. Nate Marquardt (possible matchup with Franklin?)
7. Patrick Cote (constantly improving)
8. Travis Lutter (can he get back in contention?)
9. Kendall Grove (Jaw of glass...protect it)
10. Chris Leben (two big KO's)

Now, if you were to take these same ten fighters and redid them according to marketability, I think this list would look drastically different.

UFC Middleweight marketability rankings:
1. Anderson Silva (The champ, people want to see him win, or see who will finally beat him.)
2. Rich Franklin (People love Franklin, that will not change, people will want to see him fight as long as he can win more than he loses.)
3. Michael Bisping (People may pay to see how he fairs in this new division)
4. Kendal Grove (People know him from winning the TUF show and if he can get back on track he will only move up this list)
5. Chris Leben (Exciting fight every time from this guy, win lose or draw, someone is getting punched, and punched a lot. Add in the ton of heart this guy possesses, and it is easy to see his appeal and marketability.)
6. Yushin Okami (Okami is not exactly an exciting fighter to watch, and his only real appeal right now is a rematch with Silva.)
7. Nate Marquardt (a match with Franklin or Silva can do well for Marquardt)
8. Travis Lutter (name recognition from the TUF show)
9. Patrick Cote (Name recognition, and should be a decent part of UFC's push into Canada.)
10. Dan Henderson (It is unknown if Henderson will stay in the Middleweight division, as he has stated he prefers light heavyweight. if he decided to stay at Middleweight, of course his rank would go higher on this list.)

Again, I would like to point out that this list is in no way a reflection of any top ten, nor should it be taken as such. The names used on this list are simply to illustrate a point. I think maybe having a separate list for best fighters and marketable fighters would create an interesting dynamic in the ranking articles, as well as point out why some less talented fighters can continually be employed and prove that they maybe deserve to be to be in the UFC.

Who knows Todd? Maybe these are the rankings the UFC are already following…good email.

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Make sure you come back next Tuesday for another edition of Planet Tapout! This week in MMA gives us the Palace Fighting Championships on the 20th. There's a Shooto card on the 21st along with a ShoXC card as well. The XFA has a card featuring Mike Whitehead on the 22nd as does King of the Cage. Enjoy the fights everyone.