The Ground and Pound 5.16.08: Why The Ultimate Fighter Does NOT Help Fighters PT. 2
Posted by John Curry on 05.16.2008
In the second part of a two part argument, the Ground and Pound analyzes how and why The Ultimate Fighter does NOT help its fighters with a focus on seasons 4-6 and fighters like Matt Serra and Joe Lauzon!
Last week on the Ground and Pound, I began my evaluation of how the UFC does NOT help the fighters who participate on The Ultimate Fighter series. Many of the fighters no longer fight for the UFC or anyone at all for that matter. We explored the first three seasons of TUF. This week we take a look at seasons 4-6 and wrap my argument up. In the end you will see that TUF is only concerned with the coach's fights and the ratings, not the fighters.
Season 4 Coaches: Various guest coaches & fighters cornering each other
1.Travis Lutter
a. Current Record: 9-5
b. Fights for Released by the UFC for being a lazy ass.
c. Last Fight: Lost vs. Rich Franklin
d. Notable wins since TUF4: None.
2.Charles McCarthy
a. Current Record: 10-5
b. Fights for Retired.
c. Last Fight: Lost vs. Michael Bisping
d. Notable wins since TUF4: None.
3.Gideon Ray
a. Current Record: 14-8-1
b. Fights for Unsigned.
c. Last Fight: Lost vs. Nabil Khatib
d. Notable wins since TUF 4: None.
4. Jorge Rivera
a. Current Record: 15-6
b. Fights for UFC
c. Last Fight: Win vs. Kendall Grove
d. Notable wins since TUF4: Kendall Grove
5. Rich Clementi
a. Current Record: 31-12-1
b. Fights for UFC.
c. Last Fight: Win vs. Sam Stout
d. Notable wins since TUF4 Sam Stout, Melvin Guillard.
6. Mikey Burnett
a. Current Record: 5-2
b. Fights for Unsigned.
c. Last Fight: Has not fought since his loss to Din Thomas as he was injured trying to run through a wall and required neck surgery.
d. Notable wins since TUF4: See above.
7. Jeremy Jackson
a. Current Record: 9-5
b. Fights for Unsigned.
c. Last Fight: Win vs. Hector Carillo. 2007
d. Notable wins since TUF4: None.
8. Pete Spratt
a. Current Record: 18-12
b. Fights for UWC
c. Last Fight: Win vs. Jason Von Flue
d. Notable wins since TUF4: None.
9. Pete Sell
a. Current Record: 7-4
b. Fights for Unsigned.
c. Last Fight: Lost vs. Nate Quarry 2007
d. Notable wins since TUF4: None.
10. Scott Smith
a. Current Record: 13-4
b. Fights for EliteXC.
c. Last Fight: Win vs. Kyle Noke
d. Notable wins since TUF4: None.
11. Patrick Cote
a. Current Record: 12-4
b. Fights for UFC
c. Last Fight: Win vs. Drew McFedries
d. Notable wins since TUF4: Drew McFedries, Kendall Grove,
12. Edwin DeWees
a. Current Record: 35-12
b. Fights for Last fought in NLF.
c. Last Fight: Win vs. Richard Blake
d. Notable wins since TUF4: None.
13. Shonie Carter
a. Current Record: 38-17-7
b. Fights for WFC
c. Last Fight: Win vs. John Cronk
d. Notable wins since TUF4: None.
14. Chris Lytle
a. Current Record: 25-15-5
b. Fights for UFC
c. Last Fight: Win vs. Kyle Bradley
d. Notable wins since TUF4 None.
15. Matt Serra
a. Current Record: 9-5
b. Fights for UFC.
c. Last Fight: Lost vs. Georges St. Pierre
d. Notable wins since TUF4: Georges St. Pierre
16. Din Thomas
a. Current Record: 22-8
b. Fights for Recently Released from UFC.
c. Last Fight: Lost to Josh Neer
d. Notable wins since TUF4: Clay Guida
Analysis: I don't think that it is really fair to judge the "Comeback Season" of TUF as being something to ruin people's careers before they start (remember finding NEW fighters was the original premise of this show. However, every "reality" show has it's All-star season). Of the 16 fighters to appear on this season only 5 of them are still with the UFC. Matt Serra obviously being the most successful of the group by beating Georges St. Pierre for the Welterweight title, and losing it back to him. Patrick Cote is moving up the ranks as is Jorge Rivera, and Rich Clementi is a decent mid-card fighter. Din Thomas and Travis Lutter have both been recently released by the UFC. The rest of the fighters are fighting small venues or not fighting at all.
u>Season 5 Coaches: Jens Pulver & BJ Penn
1. Gray Maynard
a. Current Record: 5-0
b. Fights for UFC.
c. Last Fight: Win vs. Frank Edgar
d. Notable wins since TUF5: Frank Edgar
2. Matt Wiman
a. Current Record: 9-3
b. Fights for UFC.
c. Last Fight: Win vs. Justin Buchholz
d. Notable wins since TUF5: Michihiro Omigawa
3. Gabe Ruediger
a. Current Record: 11-4
b. Fights for MMAX.
c. Last Fight: Loss vs. Akbarh Arreola
d. Notable wins since TUF5: None.
4. Joe Lauzon
a Current Record: 16-4
b. Fights for UFC.
c. Last Fight: Lost to Kenny Florian
d. Notable wins since TUF5: None.
5. Rob Emerson
a. Current Record: 7-6
b. Fights for UFC.
c. Last Fight: Win vs. Keita Nakamura
d. Notable wins since TUF5: None.
6. Andy Wang
a. Current Record: 5-7
b. Fights for Unsigned.
c. Last Fight: Has not fought since TUF5 finale.
d. Notable wins since TUF1: See above.
7. Allen Berube
a. Current Record:
b. Fights for .
c. Last Fight:
d. Notable wins since TUF5. (note: Sherdog.com has nothing listed for Berube, however it is rumored that he will be fighting Leonard Garcia at TUF7 Finale.)
8. Noah Thomas
a. Current Record: 10-4
b. Fights for Unsigned.
c. Last Fight: Win vs. Vincent Virgil 2006
d. Notable wins since TUF5: John Sargent
9. Corey Hill
a. Current Record: 2-0
b. Fights for UFC.
c. Last Fight: Win vs. Joe Veras
d. Notable wins since TUF5: None.
10. Nathan Diaz
a. Current Record: 9-2
b. Fights for UFC.
c. Last Fight: Win vs. Kurt Pelligrino
d. Notable wins since TUF5: None.
11. Brandon Melendez
a. Current Record: 9-6
b. Fights for Unsigned.
c. Last Fight: Has not fought since TUF 5 finale.
d. Notable wins since TUF5: See above.
12. Marlon Sims
a. Current Record: 3-3
b. Fights for Strikeforce.
c. Last Fight: Lost vs. Billy Evangelista
d. Notable wins since TUF5: None.
13. Manny Gamburyan
a. Current Record: 8-2
b. Fights for UFC.
c. Last Fight: Win vs. Jeffery Cox
d. Notable wins since TUF5: None.
14. Cole Miller
a. Current Record: 13-3
b. Fights for UFC.
c. Last Fight: Lost vs. Jeremy Stephens
d. Notable wins since TUF5: None.
15. Brian Geraghty
a. Current Record: 18-12-1
b. Fights for FCC
c. Last Fight: Win vs. Shaun Kuhl
d. Notable wins since TUF5: None.
16. Wayne Weems
a. Current Record: 10-2
b. Fights for Unsigned.
c. Last Fight: Win vs. Austin Griffith
d. Notable wins since TUF5: None.
Analysis: This is probably the most unsuccessful season yet. The only fighter on this season who legitimately has a chance of becoming a championship level fighter is Gray Maynard and possibly Nate Diaz. The rest of the fighters on this season are all out of the UFC, have not fought in a while, or do not fight at all. Again, the focus this season relied on the feud between Pulver and Penn and their subsequent fight.
Season 6 Coaches: Matt Hughes & Matt Serra
1. Dan Barrera
a. Current Record: 0-1
b. Fights for Unknown.
c. Last Fight: Has not fought since TUF 6 Finale.
d. Notable wins since TUF6: See above.
2. Blake Bowman
a. Current Record: 0-0
b. Fights for Unsigned.
c. Last Fight: Has not fought since TUF 6.
d. Notable wins since TUF6: See above.
3. Mac Danzig
a. Current Record: 18-4-1
b. Fights for UFC.
c. Last Fight: Win vs. Mark Bocek
d. Notable wins since TUF6: Mark Bocek
4. Paul Georgieff
a. Current Record: 5-2
b. Fights for Unkown.
c. Last Fight: Last fought on TUF6
d. Notable wins since TUF6: See above.
5. Billy Miles
a. Current Record: 2-2
b. Fights for Unknown.
c. Last Fight: Has not fought since TUF6.
d. Notable wins since TUF6: See above.
6. Dorian Price
a. Current Record: 8-3
b. Fights for Unknown
c. Last Fight: Has not fought since TUF6
d. Notable wins since TUF6: See above.
7. Jared Rollins
a. Current Record: 6-4
b. Fights for UFC
c. Last Fight: Has not fought since TUF6.
d. Notable wins since TUF6. See above.
8. Tommy Speer
a. Current Record: 9-3
b. Fights for Recently Released by the UFC.
c. Last Fight: Lost vs. Anthony Johnson.
d. Notable wins since TUF6: None
9. Matt Arroyo
a. Current Record: 3-1
b. Fights for UFC
c. Last Fight: Has not fought since TUF6.
d. Notable wins since TUF6: See above.
10. Richie Hightower
a. Current Record: 7-2
b. Fights for Unknown.
c. Last Fight: Has not fought since TUF6.
d. Notable wins since TUF6: See above.
11. John Kolosci
a. Current Record: 8-5
b. Fights for Unknown
c. Last Fight: Has not fought since TUF6
d. Notable wins since TUF6: See above.
12. John Koppenhaver
a. Current Record: 5-1
b. Fights for UFC.
c. Last Fight: Has not fought since TUF6.
d. Notable wins since TUF6: See above.
13. Troy Mandaloniz
a. Current Record: 3-1
b. Fights for UFC.
c. Last Fight: Has not fought since TUF6.
d. Notable wins since TUF6: See above.
14. Roman Mitichyan
a. Current Record: 5-2
b. Fights for Unknown.
c. Last Fight: Lost vs. George Sotiropoulos
d. Notable wins since TUF6. None
15. Ben Saunders
a. Current Record: 5-0-2
b. Fights for UFC.
c. Last Fight: Has not fought since TUF6.
d. Notable wins since TUF6: See above.
16. Joe Scarola
a. Current Record: 4-1
b. Fights for Unknown.
c. Last Fight: Has not fought since TUF6.
d. Notable wins since TUF6: See above.
17. George Sotiropoulos
a. Current Record: 9-2
b. Fights for UFC.
c. Last Fight: Win vs. Roman Mitichyan.
d. Notable wins since TUF6: None
Analysis: The difficulty with analyzing this season is that it ended in December of 2007 so many of these fighters have not had the opportunity to fight. I am going out on a limb here and assuming that there is a no compete clause with the TUF now which prevents any of the fighters for fighting outside of the UFC or one of their companies. I do believe, however, that there are few fighters in this season that will benefit from their participation on the show. (John Koppenhaver and Mac Danzig to be specific) The rest of the fighters will most likely be the recipients of the dreaded pink slip much like Tommy Speer was. Time will only tell with these fighters but I have a belief that if the UFC did not strike while the iron was hot they will not strike at all with a majority of these fighters.
Overall Analysis
Still Fighting for the UFC : 39 Fighters/101 possible fighters = 38.61%
Breakdown for seasons: 1=8 (20.5%), 2=7 (17.9%), 3= 4 (10.2%), 4= 5 (12.8%), 5=8 (20.5%), 6=7 (17.9%)
Not Fighting for the UFC : 62 Fighters/101 possible fighters = 61.38%
Breakdown for seasons: 1=8 (12.9%), 2=13 (20.9%), 3=12 (19.4%), 4=11 (17.7%), 5=8 (12.9%), 6=10 (16.1%)
Fighting for UFC who have had title shots: 6 fighters/ 101 possible fighters = 5.9% (Travis Lutter, Matt Serra, Forrest Griffin, Nate Quarry, Joe Stevenson, Kenny Florian)
Breakdown for seasons: 1= 3 (50%), 2=1 (16.7%), 3=0 (0%), 4=2 (33.3%), 5=0 (0%), 6=0 (0%)
Won UFC Title since TUF Participation : 1 fighter/101 possible fighters = 0.99% (Matt Serra)
Breakdown for seasons: 1=0 (0%), 2=0 (0%), 3=0 (0%), 4=1 (100%), 5=0 (0%), 6=0 (0%)
Fighters who do not fight (or are not signed) 45 Fighters/ 101 possible fighters = 44.5%
Breakdown for seasons: 1=3 (6.6%), 2=9 (20%), 3=10 (22%), 4=8 (17.7%), 5=5 (11%) 6=10 (22%)
Fighters who are signed with other companies 17 Fighters/101 possible fighters = 16.8%
Breakdown for season: 1=5 (29.4%), 2=4 (23.5%), 3=2 (11.8%), 4=3 (17.6%), 5=6 (35.3%) 6=0 (0%)
These statistics can be misleading in a way, but let us look at the most important ones. Of the 39 fighters who are fighting in the UFC at the present moment, although some of them are expecting pink slips, nearly 41% of them come from Seasons 1 and 5. The vast majority of the fighters who participated on TUF series (61.38%) do not fight for the UFC at the moment, which is understandable, if everyone could fight for the UFC what would be the point. The problem is of those 62 fighters who do not fight with the UFC, 45 of them (73%) are not signed by any other company or do not fight at all. Only 17 of those 62 have found steady work with other companies. The issue here is the Ultimate Fighter makes for great ratings and allows unknown or lesser known fighters to try to become household names, but as a side result actually chases fighters not only out of the UFC but out of the sport entirely. Those who can salvage work in the MMA are often relegated to small venue shows fighting up and coming fighters no one has heard of for little money often riding their "fame" from the TUF show. As a result these guys fade into obscurity or become so disillusioned they disappear entirely without any attempt.
The moral of the story is simple. Future contestants on the TUF series should understand something; first and foremost you are a novelty item on a reality show with the sole purpose of gaining ratings. The second thing you must realize is that it is possible that you can have a career in the UFC, sometimes even reaching the pinnacle of your class, but the odds are against you that you will be in the UFC at the end of the show or even 5 years later. You must be prepared to fight beyond the UFC with the understanding that how you were presented by the UFC on TUF is the image future companies and future fans are used to seeing. So go into the show with the understanding that if you do not cut weight, you bitch because you miss your girl, or you are not prepared to fight you will always have that stigma attached to you. Know that if you happen to be fortunate to make it through the show your ass will be put to the test immediately regardless of how well you are prepared. You are not the rookie quarterback who will be eased into the mix but most likely you will be thrown headfirst into a fight you probably cannot win like Tim Couch in Cleveland and if you lose two in a row, chances are there will be a pink slip waiting for you when you lose your third. The UFC does not care about how well you succeed as much as they care about how well you help them succeed. As long as you know going in that the UFC does NOT want to help you, but they want YOU to help them you will fare much better in the world of MMA.
The UFC is supposed to be the best of the best. The Ultimate Fighter is supposed to put possible up and coming stars against each other- with the top 1 from each weight getting a contract.
By those rules- placed back in Season 1, we should have only 10 fighters under contract (2 from seaons 1, 2, 3, and 4, and 1 from 5 and 6). The fact is that there are almost 4x that number still employed with the UFC. That's the number you failed to mention.
Of course the coaches will be the stars- they're the ones who sell PPV's. The fighters are there to be entertaining and to introduce us to some possible future stars. With the exception of S4, the fighters aren't expected to carry a PPV right after they win the tournament... the coaches are.
Before signing up, the fighters should be very well aware why they're there... the UFC has basically stated they have 1 spot open and will give it to the fighter who proves he both belongs and wants to be in the UFC. If a fighter decides to try out for the show and changes their mind mid-season, chickens out, doesn't take it serious or makes any poor showing- they deserve to be remembered that way.
I find it almost sickening that the fighters seem to be getting lazier and more immature with each season. If anything, with more people interested in the sport and wanting to make it big, one would think (hope) that the fighters would be improving. Heck, I find it insulting that they're almost all gassed by the end of the first round... but that's a whole other tirade.
Simply put- the show isn't meant to help fighters... not fully at least. It's there to give them some exposure they may not have gotten on the local circuits, to give them some of the best training, and for the lucky 1 - it's to give that person a contract.
All your calculations did is put what we already knew into numbers. There are 3 basic types of people who end up on the show:
1) There are the ones who make a good showing, show they have a great heart, and are always improving themselves. These guys manage to stay with the UFC.
2) There are the ones who make a good showing, but find out that they're not quite at the top yet. These are the guys who go to the other promotions to get experience and get better.
3) Then there are the ones who find out what real competition is... and decide it's not for them. I'd classify both the guys who complain, cause trouble, and get thrown off with the fighters who simply find out that they're not nearly as good as they thought they were and quit.
Again, with there being almost 4 times as many fighters (currently) signed with the UFC then there should, I don't see how you could say that the show doesn't help fighters. Not to mention, almost half are asked to return (if only for the finale) to get another chance.
Posted By: cyks (Guest) on May 16, 2008 at 03:39 AM
Part 2 of a bullshit article. Dude, once again you've frikkin contradicted yourself in your corny ass write-up. Nate Diaz not having any notable wins since his victory??? The guy just beat Kurt Pelligrino and has been undefeated ever since. So once again, I chose NOT to waste countless minutes of my life reading such garbage. And what, did you expect EVERYONE to get a 6-figure contract at the conclusion of the show??? I'm guessing someone's just bitter cause guy's on a reality show of the most well-known MMA organization in the world, is more of a story than the mancrush you get with your average local show between Joe Nobody and Kentahoe Kasabi. Please stop writing such garbage!!!
Posted By: BJTheTruth (Registered) on May 16, 2008 at 06:28 AM
gotta agree with Cyks here. I don't think the fighters on the show should expect the UFC to help them if they don't win. Just ny being on the show they are getting exposure, and if they deserve a shot in the big league, then the UFC gives it to them even if they don't win the show. BTW I totally agree about guys gassing out this season, WTF?
Posted By: guest guest (Guest) on May 16, 2008 at 09:12 AM
Didn't Kenny Florian have a fight for the lightweight championship, UFC 64 if I'm not mistaken
Posted By: Guest#5787 (Guest) on May 16, 2008 at 09:16 AM
And actually, your math is off. 6 fighters have received title shots since being on the Ultimate Fighter. You forgot Kenny "Ken-Flo" Florian, though considering the bias many of the writers on this site have against Mr. Florian (Not saying you do, just an observation), this is not surprising.
Posted By: Duncan (Guest) on May 16, 2008 at 09:26 AM
John - cyks makes some really good points. The UFC only promises the winners contracts. Sure, most people know others will get picked up, but I'm sure nothing is guaranteed. If we look at it purely from the standpoint of who else have been given an opportunity/exposure beside the winners, then the show is pretty damn successful.
Posted By: Kuch (Guest) on May 16, 2008 at 09:27 AM
I don't see how you can say TUF doesn't help fighters when I guarantee the exposure it lends them ups their future salary regardless of organization. Lodune Sincaid STILL fights on his TUF reputation.
Posted By: highone (Registered) on May 16, 2008 at 10:18 AM
Hey you forgot about Kenny Florian. He fought Sean Sherk for the 155 belt. That would make it 6/101 who have had title shots
Posted By: B (Guest) on May 16, 2008 at 10:20 AM
i want to add on! you forgot florian!
read the comments before posting.
Posted By: adam (Guest) on May 16, 2008 at 11:31 AM
Wow...I think cyks would do a better job writing this column than John Curry.
Your arguments about how few great fighters the Ultimate Fighter produces would be like saying the Boston Celtics aren't a good team because they only have about 2 or 3 future hall of famers out of a 12 man lineup.
Also, I don't really understand how you can say that the Ultimate Fighter 5 was "the most unsuccessful season yet" although the 8 fighters that are currently employed by the UFC have an approximate record of 15-2 after the Ultimate Fighter (not counting Diaz vs. Manny). That's a great record, especially when all these fighters are 'thrown headfirst into fights they can't win' as you like to say.
Obviously, not all the Ultimate Fighter members are going to make it. If you looked at new fighters to enter the company with relatively similar experience, I'm sure the success rate would be similar or worse.
Posted By: Pwnage (Guest) on May 16, 2008 at 12:37 PM
I just now had the chance to read both parts of this column. I missed last week for some reason. Interesting take, but I have to respectfully disagree.
That is a very good success rate for the show I would say... Do the numbers on American Idol, I'd be willing to bet that the success rate of contestants on that show are a lot lower that what you see here. Add to that the fact that only one or two people from each season are supposed to get a contract, and it makes the show all that much more successful to know that others got a deal out of it.
Seriously, how many cast members of Survivor go on to win a million bucks elsewhere? How many contestants on A Shot at Love with Tila actually get to bang Tila if they don't win? (Wait, that may be a bad example)
I understand that the premise of your article was not the success rate of the show, but how it could seem detrimental to the cast. That is what it is supposed to do... It trims the fat from MMA in general. You know as well as I do that some of the people who try to do MMA just do so because it is the in thing to do. I know it is like that in the small city I live in. We have a local MMA promotion, and I am shocked at the number of my former school mates that are participating.
How many of the guys you mentioned that do not fight anymore at all or fight for really small nameless companies, would probably be doing the same thing had they not gotten on The Ultimate Fighter. All Dana White and Co. can do is give them the opportunity to showcase their talent. What they do with that chance is totally up to them.
Can you answer me as to how many of these mentioned fighters you would have expected to ever see at the national, or international level anyway?
Posted By: Toddo (Guest) on May 16, 2008 at 12:44 PM
first off, how is TUF5 unsuccessful, most of them are still signed - Lauzon, Manny, Wiman all have potential to be good, if not at the top.
He's already fought Garcia, who since dropped to 145/WEC; and is now in legal trouble - doubt we'll see that fight.
Also, you need to list some of their losses to get a clearer picture. Lytle, Thomas, Burkman, Lauzon have all had "quality (good showings in matches no one expected them to win) losses" to VERY good fighters.
Also in terms of "helping" - many of these guys have joined the camps of the coaches they met on the show - Hill(MFS), Lauzon(Penn), Sotiropolis(Serra/Longo), Speer(H.I.T. Squad), those are just off the top of my head. I cannot imagine that training in those places won't help guys (who are generally young) in the long term.
Posted By: Jamie (Guest) on May 16, 2008 at 01:00 PM
That was a pathetic waste of time
well done
Posted By: BIRTH KILLA (Registered) on May 16, 2008 at 02:44 PM
First of all let me say cyks, thank you for a well written post. Secondly, Yes I did forget Kenny Florian for which I am embarrased but it happens and I have fixed it.
Posted By: John Curry (Registered) on May 16, 2008 at 11:07 PM
I will also have to highly disagree with this article.
How can you say the ultimate fighter does not help fighters? It gives all those fighters more exposure in a two month span then they could probably ever achieve otherwise.
You can't tell me you would give a shit about: Diego Sanchez, Forrest Griffin, Josh Koscheck, Stephan Bonnar, Mike Bisping, Rashad Evans, and etc without their experience on the ultimate fighter.
Even as tired and stale as the format has become the show is still a great launching pad for unknown fighters to the general public.
Major case in point, Mac Danzig. He could have easily went straight into the octagon and fought. But, his entrance into the ultimate fighter got him from fighting prelim fights to main cards on PPVs. He also had a built in audience from the show. Something with which he wouldn't have obtained otherwise.
The Ultimate Fighter is GREAT for fighters. Even the guys that do get cut, they all get gigs due to their name recognition tied to the show.
Posted By: Matt (Guest) on May 16, 2008 at 11:21 PM
Dogshit "article". You dismiss victories against legitimate competition under the umbrella of "none" and discount victories earned during TUF finales, which are sanctioned fights within the UFC.
Manny Gamburyan not a prospect? Joe Lauzon not a prospect? GTFO.
Just pure rubbish.
Posted By: Fan (Guest) on May 17, 2008 at 01:51 AM
I enjoyed the article. I do think there is a reasonable point there with regards to the amount of exposure the fighters get and their actual current ability. They get more exposure than their ability merits and so it is not suprising that they often struggle subsequently.
Posted By: Raymond (Guest) on May 17, 2008 at 04:42 AM
your argument is incredibly weak...it is impossible to predict what if anything these fighters would have accomplished without TUF...this is an incredibly moronic concept you have here...if you really want to make an argument that TUF is bad for fighters, than you should have a thorough analysis of their careers prior to the reality show...i dont blame you for this weak argument, i blame the educational system that failed to teach you logic and rational thought
Posted By: romano (Guest) on May 19, 2008 at 06:48 PM
