411 MMA Fact or Fiction 06.04.08: Baroni Should Hang Up his Gloves, Kimbo Slice Exposed, UFC Made a Mistake with Brock Lesnar's UFC 87 Opponent, More!

Posted by Bren Oliver on 06.04.2008

Is Keith Jardine being mistreated by the UFC based on his pay? Should Gina Carano be held to the same standard as male fighters? Is it too soon for Dana White to consider booking St. Pierre vs. Penn II? Will Kimbo Slice ever defeat an above-average Mixed Martial Artist? Read ahead as two of 411Mania's MMA writers, Justin Thomas and Fredrick Peterson, discuss these topics and more!

Like a thief in the night, the EliteXC/CBS card swooped into millions of living-rooms on Saturday evening, but instead of taking anything - other than perhaps a smidge of MMA's respectability as a sport - Gary Shaw's company left an indelible mark on the star-spangled fabric of America. Mixed Martial Arts has never received as much mainstream discussion as was generated by the EliteXC event given the past few days. From radio shows to ESPN's airwaves, people have been talking about both the good, bad and ugly of "Saturday Night Fights", so following suit, a significant portion of this week's "Fact or Fiction" will also focus on the network debut of MMA. Likewise, it would only be fair to give the UFC a bit of love as well, so rest assured you won't be subject to a six-subject force-feeding of Kimbo Slice or the gravitational pull of James Thompson's cauliflower ear.

Strapping on their seatbelts and speeding headfirst into this FoF edition are a few MMA Zone regulars whose work and opinions I enjoy on a weekly basis. First up is "Fact or Fiction" vet, and the brains behind "The Tuesday Leg Lock Report"...we have none other than Justin "Not Timberlake" Thomas! Playing the yin to JT's yang is odds-man Fredrick Peterson, a gent who offers his thoughts on MMA gambling lines in "The Weekly MMA Crapshoot" in a quest to make the readers of 411Mania a few extra bucks. Can't hate him for that, can ya? Speaking of our site's columns, if you have a few extra minutes, check out 411Mania MMA's brand spanking new feature - "Fighter of the Month" - and see why our MMA writers felt BJ Penn was the top Mixed Martial Artist of May. Where did your favorite fighter rank? The answer is a "click-click" away. Now that's taken care of, let's move on to this week's topics, shall we?

Gentlemen...are you ready? Then, America, with an enlarged heart and an empty skull, I say unto you the words of my Uncle...


ALLEZ FACT OR FICTION!!!!!!!


1. With a professional record of 10-10, and having lost five of his last seven fights, 32-year old Phil Baroni would be wise to consider retiring from Mixed Martial Arts.


Justin Thomas: FACT. I don't feel like Baroni has anything left. First, Phil never was an elite fighter, he's not a legend by any means and he got popular only because of his charisma and interviews. And now Baroni certainly can't compete even at the mid level of the middleweight division. I'm sure he could still beat some cans, but what would be the point of that? I don't believe that Phil will ever be able to beat a notable name, therefore he should retire.


Fredrick Peterson: FACT. Even though Baroni could guarantee a few more decent paydays his best fights are long behind him. Letting his record suffer any more would diminish whatever credibility he has left. While he is still relevant he should train a stable of fighters or become a commentator. If he loses much more people will put him in the boat with Ken Shamrock.


SCORE: 1 for 1. ...except Ken Shamrock has a winning record and was at one time an elite-level Mixed Martial Artist. I could see Baroni taking the can-route in EliteXC or making a decent paycheck by fighting lesser guys on local shows or in Japan (where his showmanship would be most-appreciated).


2. When it comes to weighing in heavy, the public should hold Gina Carano to the same level of accountability as her male counterparts.


Justin Thomas: FACT. Of course. If a fighter comes in heavy, he looks like an amateur, not a professional fighter. Gina is disrespecting MMA, disrespecting her opponent, disrespecting EliteXC by weighing in heavy. Don't get me wrong, I love seeing Gina in action, but I hate things like these. I know she has that whole "American Gladiators" excuse, but this was not the first time and it's not difficult to lose 15 pounds in 3 weeks. Carano is definitely guilty here and I hope next time she'll get punished more than just some money taken away.


Fredrick Peterson: FACT. Male or Female, fighters should be held to the same standard. Do I think Gina should have been held to the same standards as most fighters? Yes, but not this time. Elite XC really wanted her to fight which gave her little time to train and many expected her to come in a little heavy. Anyone in that situation has the potential for that to happen. It is not like she was in a title fight. Next time she fights and has a full training camp I expect her to come in at the correct weight.


SCORE: 2 for 2. Why are people afraid to admit they don't care about womens' MMA outside of Gina Carano? I respect their athleticism and technique, understanding there are plenty of female fighters who could leave me separated from consciousness, but just because I appreciate how a woman can sink a ton of three-pointers doesn't mean I'll follow her career in the WNBA. Gina Carano is presently a one-of-a-kind attraction, and while I'd love to say her failing to make weight is akin to Travis Lutter crapping away an opportunity to win the UFC Middleweight Championship, I simply can't do it.


3. Kimbo Slice's performance against James Thompson was proof Slice would have little chance against a Heavyweight with even slightly-above average wrestling/jiujitsu skills.


Justin Thomas: FACT. Kimbo, in his last fight, had a poor takedown defense and he looked lost on the ground. If James Thompson, who himself has very little wrestling or ground skills, could control the fight, then I don't see how Kimbo could have a chance against true wrestlers or BJJ fighters. Of course, it still depends on his opponent. I could see Kimbo KO'ing a Gracie member with no striking skills and maybe Slice will improve his takedown defense in the next fight so he could keep the fight standing, but he will certainly not learn that from Bas Rutten.


Fredrick Peterson: FACT. Besides his one reversal Kimbo did not do much on the ground. Granted "Colossus" is a large heavyweight but so are many of the other fighters out there. Any heavyweight that primarily uses wrestling should be able to dominate Kimbo. Unless his cardio and wrestling vastly improve Kimbo will lose one of his next few fights.


SCORE: 3 for 3. Oooh, a perfect score so far! When are you two moving in together?


---SWITCH!!!---


4. As it pertains to Brock Lesnar's UFC 87 opponent, the higher-ups made a mistake by replacing the injured Mark Coleman with a seemingly rejuvinated Heath Herring.


Fredrick Peterson: FICTION. Myself and the MMA community in general would not have accepted a mediocre opponent for Brock. Unlike a Kimbo victory, a Brock win over "the Crazy Horse" would mean everything for his career. A loss here would send Brock back to the drawing board, but at least his losses are against real fighters. I think everyone would give Brock another chance against a medium scale opponent (Anyone Kimbo Beat). A win against "the Crazy Horse" puts him right in the mix for a title shot. My favorite heavyweight, Brandon Vera, would not match up well with Brock (if he beats the tough Fabricio Werdum). Regardless of the outcome of either fight (Werdum/Vera) the winners should fight to become number one contender.


Justin Thomas: FACT. And for the record, I do think that Lesnar can beat Herring, maybe even easily. However, I just don't understand why would they book Lesnar vs. Herring. This fight will be a must-win for Brock, so why give him such a tough opponent? Heath has a lot more experience, he's on a role after defeating Kongo and perhaps in the best shape of his life. And while he isn't known for his takedown defense or submissions from his back, but the rookie Lesnar can still get caught by a knee while trying a takedown, or get submitted by a guillotine choke, or maybe some other way, because he's still a newbie in MMA and Herring is a veteran. Why not just replace Coleman with Justin McCully or Cheick Kongo (who has absolutely no ground game)? I don't get it.


SCORE: 3 for 4. It's a sad day for Mixed Martial Arts fans when a 1-1 record in the UFC, and a 2-1 record professionally, makes you a contender for the biggest MMA company's Heavyweight Championship. The UFC is potentially paying Brock Lesnar $500,000+ to lose two fights. Regardless of who the losses come to, setting a can't-miss superstar up to be 0-2 in your organization is a poor way to handle such an important investment. Additionally, Herring is a poor selection because fans in Minnesota are going to show up no matter who Lesnar is facing, and, with Huerta/Florian and Fitch/GSP also being on the card, it wasn't as if the UFC needed a big name in Brock's fight to help draw PPV buys.


5. Rematching BJ Penn and Georges St. Pierre is a better decision than giving Penn an opportunity to "clean out" the UFC's Lightweight Division.


Fredrick Peterson: FICTION. Wow, this is the hardest question I could have been asked. I think a Super-Fight should be saved to the Super Bowl card (February). To be the best lightweight champ of all time Penn should win at least one more fight. I don't think that anyone stands a chance against him, but he should prove himself in his division. Also I do not think it would be fair to have St. Pierre fight after only a single defense of his title before he fights Penn. Hopefully Alves beats Hughes and he 100% deserves a title shot. St. Pierre should defend his title at least twice before he deserves a Unification Super-Fight. Remember both Penn and St. Pierre are young and we have plenty of time for them to fight again. I just don't think its time unless they are really undisputed.


Justin Thomas: FICTION. Every UFC division has an "unbeatable" champion. Let those champions defend their belts and make a name for themselves, maybe even go down in UFC's record books for most title defenses. It makes no sense for BJ to jump weightclasses and face GSP. Because one of them will lose and that means one "unbeatable" champion will be down. If BJ wins, he can announce himself as the best UFC fighter ever, but what if he loses? Will he go down to lightweight and defend the belt against "B level" opponents? Will he retire? Will he fight Matt Hughes? Just let the champions defend their titles and PROVE that they are the best in the world, who don't lose their belts on their first defense (Hello GSP).


SCORE: 4 for 5. Similar to Brock Lesnar's case, the UFC needs to quit letting its fighters do the booking. BJ Penn is notorious for wanting to avenge losses, and matching him up against St. Pierre, at least so soon, would simply be placating to his vengeance-based desire. That being said, I'd eventually love to see GSP and BJ lock back up in the future, but not until each man has a chance to face a number of other fighters in his proper weight-class.


6. The fact Keith Jardine only received $10,000 for UFC 84 (based on his still-existing deal signed after his stint on the Ultimate Fighter) is a shame and is indicative of a problem when it comes to the way the UFC handles fighters' contracts.


Fredrick Peterson: FACT. Keith Jardine is a great draw for the UFC. When I saw the payout of the last event I was appalled. There is no reason a "great" fighter should be getting paid less than a substantial portion that undercard fighters were getting paid. This was Keith's 8th fight for the UFC. Previous to the loss he was 5-2 in the UFC. Not only did he beat two of the top UFC fighers (Liddell/Griffen) but he was an important part of many PPV cards. If Keith does not get invited back with a higher purse I will be very disenchanted with the UFC.


Justin Thomas: FICTION. Well when Keith Jardine signed his post-TUF contract, $10,000 was a nice paycheck for him. And this is just the way things work. Surely, now Jardine is a top light heavyweight and deserves more, but when he signed the contract, he agreed to fight for $10,000 (or $20,000 if he wins). When his contract expires, he'll ask for much more and then even if he disappears from Top 10 lists, Jardine will still get as much as he was worth when he signed his contract. For example, Mirko Cro Cop earned $350,000 for each fight in the UFC, despite looking far from spectacular. This is just smart business by the UFC, nothing wrong with that. Besides, if Keith would have won the fight and KO'ed Wanderlei, he would have gotten $95,000 for his performance, so that would've been a healthy paycheck for him.


SCORE: 4 for 6. All he had to do was knock "The Axe Murderer" out to earn a bonus worth 7X the money he got to show up and fight? Sounds easy enough! But seriously, it irks me how the UFC can release a guy who is under contract without his consent (a la Din Thomas and Jake O'Brien), but likewise a fighter can be held to a nine-fight deal paying far below his professional worth or else face the wrath of Zuffa's lawyers. Hopefully Jardine got a percentage of the PPV revenue, as he was involved in a headlining fight, but I've yet to read anything confirming he received a dime more than the ten grand.


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Join us next week when two more participants take a look at Faber vs. Pulver, Torres vs. Maeda, the results of a little show in the UK going by the name of UFC 85, and a handful of other lingering issues in the Mixed Martial Arts' world ...