411 MMA Fact or Fiction 07.02.08: "Rampage" in Less-Than Three Rounds, Amir Sadollah's Future, EliteXC Better Off Without Gary Shaw, MORE!

Posted by Bren Oliver on 07.02.2008

Should Kim Couture have been allowed to continue with a badly broken jaw? Should Josh "Punk" Thomson be considered a "Top 10" Lightweight? Will Lorenzo Fertitta's new job role in the UFC make a noticeable impact? Will Forrest Griffin see the 4th Round at UFC 86? 411's Morgan Marx and Ryan Seymour discuss these topics and more in this week's HISTORIC edition of "Fact or Fiction"!

Welcome to 411Mania MMA's weekly meeting of minds, "Fact or Fiction"! It's a big week, as we're only a few days away from the Fourth of July and the following night's UFC Light Heavyweight Championship showdown between Forrest Griffin and Quinton "Rampage" Jackson. However, before the two 205-pound clown-slash-human-weapons do battle for the UFC gold, I'm here with a couple of champs in their right and they've been kind enough to provide this edition's proverbial fireworks. First up is a long-time MMA Zoner, Morgan Marx, who has been bringing his insight and opinion to our happy little 411Mania abode through his "MMA News Report" since his opponent was but a mere twinkle in our webmaster's eye. Stepping up to test his might against the veteran is Ryan Seymour, who is a little newer to 411Mania's MMA Zone, but has established his place here nicely with the always-excellent "Ultimate eXperience" every weekend. And then, of course, you've got the topics...

Fellow 411Mania columnists...are you ready? Then, America, with an enlarged heart and an empty skull, I say unto you the words of my Uncle...


ALLEZ FACT OR FICTION!!!!!!!


1. Lorenzo Fertitta's newly established role within the UFC will have a positive impact on the promotion that even the fans will notice.


Ryan Seymour: FICTION I have no doubt that Lorenzo Fertitta's full time role with the UFC will be a positive. That being said, Lorenzo Fertitta's impact on the UFC will be behind the scenes and will not get as much recognition within the UFC. Dana White as the president of the UFC grabs most of the spotlight, while other important people backstage do not receive as much spotlight such as Frank Fertitta, Lorenzo Fertitta, Joe Silva etc. So I agree that he will have a positive impact within the UFC but people will not notice the stuff he does behind the scenes.


Morgan Marx: FACT. While we don't know anything about the division of power, or what roles Lorenzo and Dana White will actually play, I'm not sure how you can look at this as a bad move. Fertita is a successful businessman with a proven track record. Everything we've heard about him has been positive (even from such prickly sources as Tito Ortiz). The immediate comparison that jumped to my mind was the reorganization of the Red Sox front office. Both the UFC and the Sox were coming off a tremendously successful run. Both organizations had some slight troubles. Personality conflicts threatened professional relationships. In the end, one owner stepped up and played a greater role in day-to-day operations, slightly reducing another's public participation. In this scenario, Lorenzo is John Henry, the man with the most money and a somewhat quiet persona. Dana White is Larry Lucchino, the hard nosed, controversial figure that needed more guidance. I suppose that makes Randy Couture Theo Epstein, just minus the gorilla suit…



SCORE: 0 for 1. I have a strange feeling Fertitta will eventually end up in the role of "UFC President" at some point. He's more representative of what the mainstream public expects in terms of a professional sports league's primary executive. When was the last time Roger Goodell publically called a NFL player a "f*cking moron"? As entertaining as White's personality often is, and as good a job as he does, he often hurts the company with his false promises and unprofessional demeanor towards competitors (and in some cases his own employees).


2. In her professional debut, Kim "Sugar Free" Couture should not have been allowed to compete for an additional two rounds after having her jaw badly broken early in the first round.


Ryan Seymour: FICTION Although I am not a big supporter of women's MMA fights, I have to say that if Kim Couture wanted to continue then the fight should continue. The first shot in the fight broke her jaw so stopping the fight in the opening few seconds wouldn't of been right, as Kim Couture was able to last the whole fight. In the same thing happened in a UFC fight and the fight was called off, everybody would go crazy. If women want to fight inside the Octagon, I really think they should have most of the rules that men's MMA fights have.


Morgan Marx: FACT. I'm loath to play doctor (what with not being a doctor). But on the heels of the EliteXC CBS debut, a night that featured numerous early stoppages to uphold fighter's safety, I'm not sure how an MMA novice was allowed to compete with that kind of an injury. Josh Rosenthal is a respected referee. I wonder if the Couture name (and the added scrutiny that came with the fight) played a role in his decision to allow things to continue? This wasn't Forrest Griffin knocking out an opponent with a broken arm, or even Tim Sylvia not realizing Frank Mir snapped his forearm. Couture was thoroughly dominated, from star to finish. It was an incredibly gritty performance and she deserves credit for displaying such heart. But you have to wonder what the greater toll will be, and whether she'll ever step into the cage again.


SCORE: 0 for 2. She has said she'll definitely fight again and has already started training again (though in a limited capacity due to her broken jaw). Couture may be "Sugar Free", but she's definitely got tons of heart stored inside her slender frame. The fight was brutal and a situation in which many male fighters, especially those in their first professional fight as Kim was, likely would have refused to come out in the second round or had their corner throw in the towel. As I heard it, Couture basically told Randy she would "kill him" if he had tossed in the linen.


3. EliteXC will be better off in the long term if it parts ways with Gary Shaw (as has been rumored).


Ryan Seymour: FACT I can see EliteXC having some positives and negatives if Gary Shaw continues on with the company. First off, EliteXC's first show on primetime television was mostly a disappointment. The difference between Gary Shaw and Dana White is that White doesn't try to protect his fighters from losing. Chuck Liddell is Dana White's boy and even when Chuck Liddell had a two fight losing streak, Dana White never put him against a can. On the other side, we have Gary Shaw who seems to be the complete opposite. Gary Shaw's boy is Kimbo Slice and it seems like Shaw has put Slice against opponents that match up perfectly with Slice. It is no surprise that Kimbo Slice hasn't faced fighters with good submission skills. I admit feeding fighters to your stars can work in the short run, but it seems Gary Shaw is contempt on keeping Kimbo Slice undefeated by facing him of against Heavyweight fighters who are pretty bad. In the long run that is going to hurt EliteXC and people aren't going to tune into Kimbo Slice fighting, as he isn't fighting someone of good ability.


Morgan Marx: FICTION. As bad as Shaw's reputation is, I think the man has done more with EliteXC that I thought was possible. Of all the second tier MMA organizations, EliteXC has achieved the most, securing broadcasting rights, inking notable fighters, and putting on some must-watch cards (not necessarily the best MMA cards, but must see events none the less). However, there's still a great chance that Shaw mucks it all up, so I'm not exactly proclaiming him an MMA saint. But the alternative is too great an unknown. Would CBS really run the ship better? Can we trust network executives to market MMA properly and book the best fights? For now, there isn't a better option than Shaw. So let's all wait for the other shoe to drop together.


SCORE: 0 for 3. Could we be on our way to the first goose-egg in "Fact or Fiction" while the column has been under my tender? It's hard to say, but you can definitely cut the tension with a "Kenny Florian" elbow!!!


---SWITCH!!!---


4. Not including his stint on the Ultimate Fighter, Amir Sadollah will compile a winning record inside the UFC.


Morgan Marx: FICTION. I hate to go against Sadolloh. Like every fan that gritted through another TUF season, Amir was a bright spot - a reason to stand up and cheer. His journey from fringe contender to show victor was one of the best moments in the show's history. He even finished five fights to win the crown; an amazing run. But he's still an MMA novice. He looks small for 185, I'm not sure how he would stack up against the likes of Dan Henderson and Rich Franklin. Worse, a move down to 170 would place him in arguably the most talent rich division in MMA. I don't want to sell Sadolloh short, I fear I'm making the same mistake the other TUF fighters made on the show. I hope Sadolloh has a long, successful UFC career. But at this point, I think a second place finish and a stint in the WEC would have been more favorable to his long-term success.


Ryan Seymour: FACT Excluding TUF 4 (which did not get its fighters from scratch), each TUF winner has compiled a winning record inside the UFC. Here are the TUF winners records inside the octagon – TUF 1: Diego Sanchez (7-2), Forrest Griffin (5-2) – TUF 2: Joe Stevenson (4-2), Rashad Evans (5-1-0) – TUF 3: Kendall Grove (3-2), Michael Bisping (5-1) – TUF 5: Nate Diaz (3-0) – TUF 6: Mac Danzig (1-0)

I expect Amir Sadollah to be exactly the same as previous winners. Amir had a kickboxing background going into the show, but his MMA record was 0-0. It was a fairytale story for Amir and very few picked Amir to be the TUF winner at the start of the season. Amir has something that is very hard (of not impossible) to teach in sports athletes, that attribute is heart. In Amir's first fight against CB, Amir was getting beaten in 90% of that fight. It was the last round and CB was ahead on the judges score card, this did not stop Amir from fighting. Amir was able to pull of a great armbar and then back the win up on the Finale, beating CB for the second time. I could see Amir being a good fighter in the middleweight division of the UFC. I wouldn't put him up with the names of Anderson Silva, Dan Henderson, Ricardo Almeida, Rich Franklin or Michael Bisping yet. Other then the fighters I just mentioned, I wouldn't be putting it past Amir to beating anyone else in the UFC Middleweight division.


SCORE: 0 for 4. He's already said he's headed to Welterweight. All the former TUF winners Seymour listed also had extensive experience in professional MMA, whereas Sadollah's first pro win came on the Ultimate Fighter. Personally, I'm on the fence when it comes to how successful he'll be inside the cage, though I hope he continues to win as Amir has a positive outlook on life, a very entertaining personality, and a great foundation of skills, some of which can't be taught, on which to build.


5. Quinton "Rampage" Jackson will finish Forrest Griffin within the first three rounds of their UFC 86 title-fight.


Morgan Marx: FACT. I've been trying to talk myself into Forrest. He's likeable, works damn hard, fights for the right reasons. He's everything you would want in a champion. But I can't see him finishing Jackson, and I can't see him stealing three rounds to win a decision. That leaves Jackson winning, and Quinton doesn't let too many fights slip to the judges. I think suggestions that Griffin's chin is weak are a bit overstated. But it's a fact that Griffin was laid out by the only fighter he's faced that can be called a big puncher. It's also a fact that Jackson hits harder than Keith Jardine. In the end, I think Griffin comes out and plays it safe, staying outside and utilizing kicks and his reach. Eventually, he'll get caught, and Jackson will either KO him standing, or follow him to the ground and pound him out. But then, I'm always wrong about these things…


Ryan Seymour: FICTION I have still not fully decided that Rampage will win this fight. I will probably pick Rampage to win the fight but wouldn't be hugely surprised if Forrest came out with the win. One thing that I would be putting money on is this fight ending in a decision. Rampage does have knockout power but Forrest will probably try the Dan Henderson style against Rampage and try to take the fight to the ground. Like I mentioned before with Amir Sadollah, Forrest Griffin has a lot of heart and has a never say die attitude. Rampage could get the better from the striking and also show his improved ground game or maybe Griffin will be able to brawl with Rampage and control him on the ground. Whatever does actually happen, I will be surprised if it someone is able to stop the fight.


SCORE: 0 for 5.


6. With his recent win over Gilbert Melendez, Josh Thomson now deserves to be considered amongst the "Top 10" Lightweight Mixed Martial Artists in the world.


Morgan Marx: FICTION. This is a question that goes beyond Josh Thomson. Looking back, did Gilbert Melendez really deserve to be a Top 10 fighter? Ranking fighters that appear primarily outside of the major organizations is a tricky deal. Melendez had only defeated two top fighters: Kawajiri and Guida. The rest of his victories came against somewhat average opponents. Most rankings placed Melendez in the four to six range, ahead of fighters like Kenny Florian, Joe Stevenson, Roger Huerta, etc. In hindsight, is Melendez any better than Tyson Griffin, another fighter that squeaked by Guida? This was a long way of saying I'm weary of ranking non-UFC, non-upper echelon based fighters in the Top 5, or even Top 10. The same goes for Thomson. He's racked up big wins over Melendez, McCullough, and Franca. But is he better than Jamie Varner, the WEC 155 champ? Is he better than KJ Noons? And how would any of them fare in the deep UFC Lightweight division? God, what was the question? Umm, no, Thomson doesn't belong in the top 10. It was a great fight though…


Ryan Seymour: FACT Before Josh Thomson defeated Gilbert Melendez, the 411Mania rankings in the Lightweight division saw Gilbert Melendez at #5 and Thomson nowhere to be seen. Thomson has a record of 14-2 and not only is that a good record but he has also defeated some well known fighters. Thomson has had some big wins over Hermes Franca, Rob McCullough and of course Gilbert Melendez. Thomson should really be considered up there with the Top 10 Lightweights of the world after his most recent victory. Thomson has only suffered two losses, and they were of course to UFC veterans Yves Edwards and Clay Guida. No question that the Lightweight division is stacked, one of the best weight divisions in the world. With that said if Josh ‘The Punk' Thomson isn't in most site rankings or in 411's next Lightweight rankings, he would be considered very unlucky.


SCORE: 0 for 6! Dreams come true! Zero for six! Yes, rankings are for the most part purely subjective. And yes, I'll be putting Thomson in the "Top 10" when the time comes a week or two from now...


----

Join us next week when two more participants take a look at the results from UFC 86, "Affliction: Banned", and other issues lingering out there in the Mixed Martial Arts' world ...