411MMA Fact or Fiction 09.17.08: Evan Tanner in the UFC Hall of Fame, Atwitter About Rachelle Leah in Playboy, Affliction's Partnership with Golden Boy a Good Thing, and MORE!

Posted by Bren Oliver on 09.17.2008

Will Melvin Manhoef win the DREAM Middleweight Grand Prix? Is Martin Kampmann doing the right thing by dropping down a weightclass? Should Mirko Filipovic be favored against Alistair Overeem? Read ahead as 411Mania's Dustin James and NoKaut's Randy Harrison debate these topics and more in this week's MMA Fact or Fiction!

Wednesday has arrived and it's time once again for another edition of your favorite 411Mania MMA column starting with "Fact" and ending with "Fiction"! There are a ton of subjects bouncing around these days, what with tonight's "UFC Fight Night", the debut of the eight season of TUF, Strikeforce returning to the Playboy Mansion, the conclusion to DREAM's Middleweight Grand Prix being less than a week away, the passing of Evan Tanner, the future of Affliction, and plenty of other matters getting play in the Mixed Martial Arts community. Joining us this week are two repeat offenders, though each calls a different web address home. First up is Dustin James, whose work here at 411Mania includes our weekly set of divisional rankings, a handful of fighter profiles, and his consistent contribution to all our MMA Roundtable Discussions. Lining up across the proverbial FoF cage from Dustin is a guy who may now be grazing in greener pastures, but who also hasn't forgotten where he came from, and thank goodness since his insight and opinion are typically so spot-on. I'm talking about none other than Randy Harrison, MMA writer and currently the driving force behind the always enjoyable NoKaut. Each has some strong opinions to share in regards to our six savory special ingredients - the topics - so let's not waste time with any more formalities.

Readers...are you ready? Fellow columnists...are you ready? Then, America, with an enlarged heart and an empty skull, I say unto you the words of my Uncle...


ALLEZ FACT OR FICTION!!!!!!!


1. Evan Tanner deserves to be in the UFC Hall of Fame.


Dustin James: FACT. I mean, what are the credentials to get you into the UFC's Hall-Of-Fame? Are they listed somewhere that I don't know about? Ken Shamrock is in the UFC Hall-Of-Fame. Ken Shamrock has never won a UFC championship at a weight division. True, he did win the UFC Superfight title, a title which isn't even around any more. Plus Shamrock's UFC record is a less than stellar 7-6-2. Tanner's UFC record is 11-6 and he is a former UFC Middleweight champion. When you compare pro records overall, Tanner is 32-8, while Shamrock is 26-13. By those comparisons alone, Tanner is a UFC hall-of-famer. If somebody personally believes that Tanner isn't UFC hall-of-fame material, then I would like to know what kind of credentials gets you in.


Randy Harrison: FACT. To be fair, I felt this way even before his recent passing. I realize that there is more of a groundswell now, and while it's understandable, people may be making the case a little too passionately based on the emotion of the current situation. I've seen people say that he deserves to be in more than guys like Ken Shamrock and to me that's a little much. Tanner deserves to be in based on his accomplishments before his death, which include making it to the top of the sport by essentially self-training himself. Granted, he was working with camps when he made it to the pinnacle and won the UFC Middleweight Championship, but for someone to find the level of success that they did by essentially watching videotape tutorials is pretty remarkable. His record might not be one that some people feel is HOF-worthy, but MMA is about much more than records. People feel like his demons may be enough of a reason to keep him out, citing that he could have accomplished so much more without having to deal with those problems. Just look to any other sport and their HOF's and you'll see people with far worse demons than Tanner (Ty Cobb anyone?). His career and his accomplishments warrant his inclusion, completely separate from his untimely demise, which is why I almost hope they wait a year or two before inducting him. That way it can feel more based on his accomplishments rather than the fact that he died young.


SCORE: 1 for 1. I don't think the method in which he trained himself should be taken into account where his eligibility is concerned anymore than it should matter if he learned jiujitsu from a monkey or boxing from a kangaroo. It makes for a great story but means little in the grand scheme of things. I also think that, while being a UFC Champion is a nice feather in a fighter's cap, it should not guarantee his place in the Hall of Fame (see: Murilo Bustamante). The two criteria I would judge a Mixed Martial Artist's worthiness where the HoF is concerned are his success inside the Octagon and his impact on the sport in general. While he may be close to having a .500 record in the UFC, Ken Shamrock is an icon who at one point was one of the best fighters on the planet. He also was one of the first people to utilize leglocks and his use of them caused a number of people to either learn the skill or learn how to defend it. Shamrock may not have ever won the UFC title in any particular weightclass, but then again, Tanner never successfully defended his belt and won it by beating a less-than stellar opponent in the form of David Terrell. His biggest career wins came against above-average opponents like Robbie Lawler and Phil Baroni while dropping bouts to more-elite fighters like Tito Ortiz (at the time) and Rich Franklin. If Evan Tanner is ever admitted to the UFC Hall of Fame, which I'd say the odds are good for, the move will almost certainly be based on his untimely death moreso than anything he accomplished in MMA.


2. Affliction's partnership with Golden Boy Promotions is a positive move for the fledgling MMA company.


Dustin James: FACT. Yikes, this is a tough one. I believe it's a positive move for Affliction financially. While I don't agree with co-promoting MMA and boxing shows at all, Golden Boy is a name in the boxing world and they can definitely help Affliction. The whole co-promoting thing hasn't worked yet since MMA has been around. MMA fans and boxing fans are different in the fact that hardcore boxing purists dislike MMA because they feel as if the sport is "taking their audience". This is not true at all. I'm a fan of both sports and as long as boxing can give me a fight that I want to see.....I will throw my money down. However, when I want to see MMA....I want to see MMA. When I want to see boxing....I want to see boxing. I don't want to see an MMA fight, then a boxing fight, then an MMA fight, than another boxing fight as I feel it can slow the pace of the card down. Don't be surprised when the whole co-promoting shows things doesn't work out. But for now, this is a good move by Affliction as the company was losing money faster than EliteXC. And that's not a good thing.


Randy Harrison: FICTION. The partnership would be fine if it focused on using joint production aspects or promotion aspects while keeping each sport separate. If they focused on having Oscar De La Hoya use his contacts within the combat sports industries to try to grow Affliction's brand within that world, it would be one thing, but trying to make joint production cards could spell trouble. The union of boxing and MMA reeks of desperation because we've seen on a few occasions already that boxing and MMA very rarely work on the same card. Which fight would get top billing in the mainstream media? The boxing match. That would lead to more contempt from MMA fans that already consider boxing to be a dying sport. If in some instance (Fedor/Arlovski), the MMA fight gets top billing, the boxing fans will head for the hills as they consider MMA to be too barbaric and savage and lawless to be included with their "sweet science". Will boxing fans shell out fifty dollars to see two boxing matches if they have to sit through six or seven MMA matches? Will MMA fans, who don't tend to watch boxing to begin with, shell out the same to see two boxing matches on a card that could have had 10 or 11 MMA bouts if there were no boxing matches? The two sports cater to somewhat different fan bases and expecting them to cross over could be a recipe for disaster.


SCORE: 1 for 2.


3. Martin Kampmann will be more successful in the UFC at Welterweight than he was as a Middleweight.


Dustin James: FACT. Martin Kampmann's manager has come out and said that this will be a good move for Martin. Kampmann is a pretty small Middleweight which could actually end up being an advantage if/when he decides to drop down to the Welterweight division in the UFC. The only difference is, the UFC's Welterweight division is even more stacked than it's Middleweight division. In the Middleweight division Kampmann was considered a top 5-10 fighter in the UFC. As a Welterweight? It's a whole new ball game. He will have to contend with the likes of GSP, Diego Sanchez, Thiago Alves, Josh Koscheck, Jon Fitch, and possibly even Matt Serra or Matt Hughes. This is why this is a tricky question. I believe Kampmann can be more successful due to the fact that he's more of a natural Welterweight than a Middleweight. However, his competition is way more fierce.


Randy Harrison: FICTION. I say "fiction" because I'm not understanding this need that fighters seem to have these days to drop weight classes after suffering only one big loss. This was pretty much the biggest loss of Kampmann's career, but no one ever even gave a thought to him dropping until he suffered the loss. In the Middleweight division, even with the loss, he's still a player and could be one or two big wins away from fighting for a title shot. If he drops down to Welterweight, he joins an absolute glut of talent and will probably be five or six fights away from fighting for a title. It's conceivable that if he drops down, he could possibly not even break the top five in the UFC at 170. That's how deep the division is. I understand that size is important in MMA and that fighters always want to feel like the bigger fighter when they're in the ring or cage, but this decision needs to be about more than just size. A move to Welterweight, at this point in his career, would be a lateral or almost backwards movement at this point and a bad decision.


SCORE: 1 for 3. Bonus points to Mr. Harrison for his use of the word "glut".


---SWITCH!!!---


4. Melvin Manhoef will win the DREAM Middleweight Grand Prix.


Randy Harrison: FICTION. I would call Manhoef the third favorite at best. Granted, he has the chance to just blow right through his two opponents with huge power punches and win the whole thing in about a minute and a half. However, there are many things to consider when it comes to the Grand Prix format. To definitively say that any of the remaining four men will win is a risky proposition because there are two fights in one night. Could Manhoef end up having to expend nearly all of his energy in a semi-final fight and then have nothing in the tank for the finals? Yes. Could Manhoef end up getting injured in the opening bout and then either fight with an injury or be forced to withdraw? Yes. That could happen to any of the final four, as evidenced in the Lightweight Grand Prix. I would put Ronaldo "Jacare" Souza and Gegard Mousasi ahead of Manhoef in my picks, just because they both have ground games that can cause problems for Manhoef. Manhoef is too one-dimensional for me to make him my prohibitive favorite. The one thing that I can say for sure is that I'm excited for the conclusion of the tournament.


Dustin James: FICTION. I'm sticking with my boy Ronaldo "Jacare" Souza if by no other reason then the fact that I think he KICKS ASS! Honestly though, could DREAM have wished for a better final four then they got? I mean, you have MM, Jacare, Mousasi, and Zelg. That's a hell of a final four. I honestly think that we will see a final fight pitting Manhoef against Jacare. It really could be anybody's ball game, but the fact that Manhoef's last two losses came via submission against two guys who are pretty technically sound submission-wise should scare Manhoef fans. And if anybody is technically sound submission-wise it's my boy Jacare. He is 9-1 with 8 victories via submission. The only man he couldn't submit was Jason Miller, and Miller hasn't been submitted since 2002. I would have no problem laying my paycheck down on Jacare to win this whole thing.


SCORE: 2 for 4. You're on, Dustin! My 411Mania paycheck vs. your 411Mania paycheck! Who will take home the grand total of zero dollars?!? Fans will just have to wait until DREAM 6 to find out...


5. Mirko "Cro Cop" Filipovic should be favored against Alistair Overeem when the two face off at DREAM 6.


Randy Harrison: FACT. No, I'm not saying that just because I work for a website based in Croatia and I would fear reprisal if it came out I picked against him. I firmly believe it. Granted, Mirko hasn't been the same destroyer that he was in winning the 2006 OWGP and that he's seemingly had problems in every fight since then, even the ones he's won, but anger can be the supreme motivator. Overeem has tried on numerous occasions, on numerous levels, to goad Mirko into this fight, including saying that Mirko was ducking him and calling himl and I quote, "a douchebag". I don't know about you, but I wouldn't feel terribly comfortable heading into a fight against someone who nearly kicked Wanderlei Silva's head off after I had called him a douchebag. Filipovic looks ready in the training photos and videos I've seen of him, rather than the somewhat tentative Mirko we saw in the UFC and even in his first DREAM bout. If he uses his hands to set up his kicks and realizes it's about more than throwing the high kick, he should easily be able to handle Overeem. You don't tug on Superman's cape, you don't spit into the wind, and come September 23rd, we will likely be able to say that you do NOT, under any circumstances, call Mirko Filipovic a douchebag.


Dustin James: FACT. If you would have asked this question two years ago, you might have been laughed at. However, thanks to two losses in the UFC courtesy of Gabriel Gonzaga (in a SICK KO) and Cheick Kongo, Cro Cop for some reason doesn't get the respect he once got. I still think when he's on his game, Cro Cop is one of the deadliest Heavyweights in MMA. There's a reason that Fedor Emelianenko wants a rematch with Cro Cop people! Fedor knows how deadly Cro Cop can be. If we see the same Mirko Cro Cop that we saw before 2007, Overeem is in for a tough night. If Overeem can somehow pull out the victory here, I will eat my words with butter on them. I then might accept the fact that Cro Cop is a washed-up fighter. But then again, that's a pretty big might!.


SCORE: 3 for 5. Overeem is no slouch and has not dealt with anywhere near the adversity Mirko has faced over the past year (losses/injuries/surgeries). However, lucky for "Cro Cop", he won't have to worry about a fence or elbows, so I think he chances are decent when it comes to beating "The Demolition Man". Plus, if all else fails, Filipovic can always bust out the ol' Zangief/Hagar spinning backfists attack...





6. In your adult life, you have never been more excited about a Playboy spread than you are about November's upcoming issue featuring Rachelle Leah.


Randy Harrison: FICTION. I expect a barrage of name-calling and insults directed at me in the comments section, but honestly it's hard to get excited to see anyone in Playboy these days, even someone as attractive as Leah. The past few years it's next to impossible to even get an accurate picture of how someone would look based on Playboy because they're almost more an ode to photo enhancement than they are to the nude female form. Sure it will be interesting to see what's under the UFC bikini/shorts combo deal, and this is the only way it would be seen, but it's still underwhelming because of how much they airbrush every single shot. *shrugging* Maybe it's just me.


Dustin James: FICTION. One word, CHYNA.....kidding! Actually, when I was 18 years old, I was a massive wrestling fan. I had a crush on this valet chick in wrestling for years and then I finally found out she was going to be in Playboy and it felt like an early Christmas present! Ladies and gentlemen, I'm talking about the one, the only Torrie F'N Wilson! Now, don't get me wrong. I'm totally excited at the chance to see Rachelle Leah show off her tig o'bitties, but I'm 27 years old now and haven't bought a Playboy magazine since Torrie Wilson did that spread. There's a little thing called "Internet porn" now that is much better than looking at a picture in a magazine. Now, if somebody wants to email me the links to the pictures when they finally get on the net...I will not object.....one.....single....bit.


SCORE: 4 for 6. "Tig o'bitties", Dustin? Really? I'd like to see your ID card to in fact prove you are 27 years old. And Randy, don't sweat the fact you feel a bit ho-hum about Playboy due to the digital clean-up they perform on all their pictures. Preferring "Swank" is absolutely nothing to be ashamed of. Er...


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Join us next week when two more participants discuss Jon Koppenhaver's release from the UFC, "Fight Night 15" results, their impressions of the Ultimate Fighter Season 8's debut, and a few other issues lingering out there in the land o' MMA...