411 Boxing Fact or Fiction 03.24.09: Klitschko, Norris-Trinidad, Healthcare and More
Posted by Ramon Aranda on 03.24.2009
Can anyone beat Vitali Klitschko? Will fighters get healthcare someday? What about Oscar De La Hoya - can he look good jumping up to junior middleweight? See what we think on this week's Fact or Fiction: Boxing style!
Original image by Rafael Rivera
Alright, here we go with another edition of Fact or Fiction. This week, David Lee, straight out of the Republic of Ireland steps up in the red corner to go one on one with me as I stand waiting in the blue corner. How do two minds from different worlds think? Will it be a friendly discussion or will things get rocky?
Let's find out!
Round 1: You just don't see anyone beating Vitali Klitschko right now.
David Lee: FACT - Outside of his brother, who he's never going to fight, this is one of the weakest eras in the history of this great division and I just don't see anyone in the top ten or on the way up who has the beating of Dr. Iron Fist. David Haye? No way. Haye has a chance against Wlad early, provided the Briton can tag Klitschko Jr. early. However, he doesn't have this same chance against big brother, as Vitali's chin has proven to be rock solid. So who else have we got? Chagaev? Too inactive and hasn't got anything exceptional in his arsenal to bother the giant Ukrainian. Povetkin? Too green and he won't get past Wladimir anyway. So really, as long as Vitali stays fit and healthy, he can reign for as long as he wants.
Ramon Aranda: FACT - I agree with you David. Outside of little brother Wladimir, I just don't see anyone who can pose a real threat. The only other person I can think of would be David Haye who's exciting, carries a big punch and exceptional speed for a heavyweight but has a suspect chin. Klitschko has only gone the distance once, which doesn't bode well for Haye's ability to take a big punch. Other than that, the division is so crappy right now that the brothers Klitschko could reign for a while.
Score: 1 for 1
Round 2: Roy Jones would likely do well if he went back up in weight.
David Lee: FICTION - Why do we delude ourselves about great fighters who are past their prime? We convince ourselves that their latest defeat was just a case of a bad day of the office, weigh-making difficulties, promotional and other outside the ring distractions, rather than face up to the fact that father time waits for no man, including Roy "Superman" Jones. I admired Jones as much as anyone, though I lost respect for him as a boxer towards the end of his reign (more on that another time), but to quote Mickey from "Rocky", "you got the heart, but you ain't got the tools no more". Give it up Roy and leave us to enjoy the memories.
Ramon Aranda: FICTION - Jones is done as a serious fighter. Even if he went up in weight, he'd likely get tattooed by a bigger puncher which would be worse than staying at light heavyweight. He can still school slower, older fighters or even mediocre opponents, but not anyone in the top 10 in any division. He's talked about being willing to go to heavyweight and even dropping to super middleweight. Jones was a spectacular fighter, but the only place he belongs right now is in a state of retirement.
Score: 2 for 2
Round 3: Andre Berto is this generation's Meldrick Taylor in terms of style and attributes.
David Lee: FICTION - Taylor was a world class amateur and professional, who was arguably one of the most naturally gifted boxers of the 90's. Berto, despite having bags of potential, is not ready to be called world class yet, despite that piece of excess bling (the WBC belt) that Money Mayweather so generously awarded him. He was very fortunate to beat a glorified gatekeeper in Luis Collazo and is clearly not ready to tackle the elite of the welterweight division yet. Hence the fact he's taking on a light-welterweight in his next fight, Juan Urango. I'll tell you what though, if you wanted to bet on a live underdog, you could do a lot worse than Urango.
Ramon Aranda: FICTION - You know I was tempted to go with FACT on this one given the way they look in the ring sometimes but in the end, I think you're right. Berto is not at the level that Taylor was, at least not before he fought Chavez. Can Berto reach that higher echelon of fighters at 147? Maybe – he has skills which include blazing speed and great footwork but he still needs to prove himself against some of the top fighters in his division. Where I do think they sometimes intertwine is in the fact that they're both quick as hell and Berto, like Taylor sometimes decides to brawl when he doesn't need to which puts him in a position to get caught.
Score: 3 for 3
AND NOW FOR THE CHAMPIONSHIP ROUNDS!!
Round 4: If they had fought in their primes, you would've picked Terry Norris over Felix Trinidad.
Ramon Aranda: FACT - Maybe I'm just tempted to against the grain here and I'm sure most would pick Tito but here's my reasons why Norris could've won. Trinidad, in his prime was a 147-pounder while Norris was a 154-pounder. You could argue that both had similar fire power but with Norris having the edge in weight, I think his right hands would've given Trinidad problems. Both had shaky chins and similar hand speed so I'll pick Norris based of slightly harder punching power. That's still a big maybe though!
David Lee: FICTION - To beat a prime Tito you needed to be a disciplined boxer with good lateral movement and have a sound chin. So that rules Norris out of the running. Would have been a heck of a fight and, of course, Tito would hit the canvas at least fifty times, but if you get involved in a shootout with a prime Trinidad you lose. It's that simple. Tito gets off the floor to put Norris on the canvas and keep him there somewhere around the sixth.
Score: 3 for 4
Round 5: You think healthcare will someday be provided to fighters.
Ramon Aranda: FACT - It might take a collective effort but I think healthcare will finally come. It probably won't be for a while though so I'm only going with ‘FACT' based off the "someday" probability. I know Senator McCain has been a big proponent of this type of measure and plenty in the fight game want to see it happen. Still, it'll take a huge effort specifically from some of the biggest names in the sport to make it happen. It will be a good while, but I think it'll finally prevail…someday.
David Lee: FICTION - In an age where Joe Mesi, Oscar Larios and Riddick Bowe can still get a license to box, you know that this is not exactly the most caring of sports. I hope I'm wrong but I won't be holding my breath that healthcare will be provided for boxers anytime soon.
Score: 3 for 5
Round 6: You wouldn't be surprised if De La Hoya fought again, at a higher weight class such as junior middleweight and actually looked good in the process.
Ramon Aranda: FACT - For one, I wouldn't be surprised if Oscar fought again at junior middleweight and given the proper training and a fighter not named Manny Pacquiao, he could probably look pretty decent against the right guy. Knowing Oscar, he wouldn't exactly fight a tomato can either but probably not against someone with huge pop or blinding speed. In his heart, he can't go out like he did against Pacquiao, so I think he'll have one more fight and probably look good enough to finally walk away content.
David Lee: FACT - Oscar WILL fight again at a higher weight class and he can look good again against the right sort of opponent. There's no question that Oscar screwed up making the weight for his fight with Pacquiao. Who the hell comes in bang on the weight limit on the night of the fight nowadays anyway, especially when they've boxed at a higher weight for over six years? That was an absolutely ridiculous contract stipulation that Oscar agreed to. This isn't similar to the Roy Jones situation before anyone asks. Roy's been a pale shadow of his former self for over five years now. There were no signs that Oscar was a shot fighter prior to the Pacquiao fight, so I would assume that the reason for him looking like a statue against the Pac-Man was purely down to him being dead at the weight. But how much did the Pacquiao drubbing take out of the Golden Boy? Ah, now that's another question. And I'm not just talking about the physical damage. Oscar was humiliated in that fight and was forced to quit on his stool. No fighter wants to go out that way and I'm sure Oscar wants to leave the ring in a blaze of glory. But what mental demons will be at play during his comeback fight? It's quite possible that De La Hoya is now a ruined boxer. But I'm sure we'll find out sooner or later. Oscar will be back in the ring, no question.
Final Score: 4 for 6
Now we've love to hear your thoughts....FACT or FICTION? Let us know!
David Lee: FACT - Outside of his brother, who he's never going to fight, this is one of the weakest eras in the history of this great division and I just don't see anyone in the top ten or on the way up who has the beating of Dr. Iron Fist. David Haye? No way. Haye has a chance against Wlad early, provided the Briton can tag Klitschko Jr. early. However, he doesn't have this same chance against big brother, as Vitali's chin has proven to be rock solid. So who else have we got? Chagaev? Too inactive and hasn't got anything exceptional in his arsenal to bother the giant Ukrainian. Povetkin? Too green and he won't get past Wladimir anyway. So really, as long as Vitali stays fit and healthy, he can reign for as long as he wants.
David Lee: FICTION - Why do we delude ourselves about great fighters who are past their prime? We convince ourselves that their latest defeat was just a case of a bad day of the office, weigh-making difficulties, promotional and other outside the ring distractions, rather than face up to the fact that father time waits for no man, including Roy "Superman" Jones. I admired Jones as much as anyone, though I lost respect for him as a boxer towards the end of his reign (more on that another time), but to quote Mickey from "Rocky", "you got the heart, but you ain't got the tools no more". Give it up Roy and leave us to enjoy the memories.
David Lee: FICTION - Taylor was a world class amateur and professional, who was arguably one of the most naturally gifted boxers of the 90's. Berto, despite having bags of potential, is not ready to be called world class yet, despite that piece of excess bling (the WBC belt) that Money Mayweather so generously awarded him. He was very fortunate to beat a glorified gatekeeper in Luis Collazo and is clearly not ready to tackle the elite of the welterweight division yet. Hence the fact he's taking on a light-welterweight in his next fight, Juan Urango. I'll tell you what though, if you wanted to bet on a live underdog, you could do a lot worse than Urango.
Ramon Aranda: FACT - Maybe I'm just tempted to against the grain here and I'm sure most would pick Tito but here's my reasons why Norris could've won. Trinidad, in his prime was a 147-pounder while Norris was a 154-pounder. You could argue that both had similar fire power but with Norris having the edge in weight, I think his right hands would've given Trinidad problems. Both had shaky chins and similar hand speed so I'll pick Norris based of slightly harder punching power. That's still a big maybe though!
Ramon Aranda: FACT - For one, I wouldn't be surprised if Oscar fought again at junior middleweight and given the proper training and a fighter not named Manny Pacquiao, he could probably look pretty decent against the right guy. Knowing Oscar, he wouldn't exactly fight a tomato can either but probably not against someone with huge pop or blinding speed. In his heart, he can't go out like he did against Pacquiao, so I think he'll have one more fight and probably look good enough to finally walk away content.
