Fantasy Warfare 10.12.09: Ali vs. Tyson!

Posted by Patrick Mullin on 10.12.2009

The Greatest takes on Iron Mike in the first edition of 411 Boxing's Fantasy Warfare. Fight Night Round 4 has nothing on us!

Welcome readers to the newest column here at 411 Boxing, Fantasy Warfare! In this column where going to break down match ups that either didn't happen when they could have, that could potentially happen, or that never could happen but what would happen if they did.

Our panel this week is made up of myself, Patrick Mullin, FJ Parlan of "The FJ Fury", and the big man himself Ramon Aranda who makes all of this possible…with donations from viewers like you.

For our inaugural entry we're taking on the match up that helped propel EA's Fight Night Round 4 to huge success. That's right we're kicking it off with perhaps the most talked about fantasy fight of all time, "The Greatest" Muhammad Ali against "Iron" Mike Tyson. But before we get into that, let's explain how this works.

This isn't the Ali who looked out of shape and a shell of his once great form that got beaten up by Larry Holmes, Trevor Berbick, and Leon Spinks. Its not the Ali who laid on the ropes hoping George Foreman would run out of gas while eating counters. Its not even the Ali who fought Joe Frazier. We're talking Ali at his peak years, which were 1964-1967. In the case of Mike Tyson, we're using the guy who ran roughshod over a weak heavyweight division from 1986-1989. We're going prime vs. prime here.

For this bout scheduled for 15 rounds, let's give you the tale of the tape.


ALI
Height: 6'3
Weight: 210 pounds
Reach: 82 inches


TYSON
Height: 5'10
Weight: 217 pounds
Reach: 71 inches

Here is each man's respective record in their prime years.

Ali's Record for 64-67

KO7 Sonny Liston, KO1 Sonny Liston, KO12 Floyd Patterson, W15 George Chuvalo, KO6 Henry Cooper, KO3 Brian London, KO12 Karl Mildenberger, KO3 Cleveland Williams, W15 Ernie Terrell, KO7 Zora Folley

Final Tally - 10-0 (8)

Tyson's Record for 86-97

KO1 David Jaco, KO5 Mike Jameson, KO6 Jesse Ferguson, KO3 Steve Zouski, W10 James Tillis, W10 Mitch Green, KO1 Reggie Gross, KO1 William Hosea, KO2 Lorenzo Boyd, KO1 Marvis Frazier, KO10 Jose Ribalta, KO2 Alonzo Ratliff, KO2 Trevor Berbick, W12 James Smith, KO6 Pinklon Thomas, W12 Tony Tucker, KO7 Tyrell Biggs, KO4 Larry Holmes, KO2 Tony Tubbs, KO1 Michael Spinks, KO5 Frank Bruno, KO1 Carl Williams

Final Tally - 22-0 (17)

Let's start breaking them down.

Biggest Strengths

Muhammad Ali

Ramon Aranda - He was quick fisted, was light on his feet and had a beautiful jab. Ali never had to mix it up with you unless he felt like it. His movement would give most fighters problems, and his jab set up his quick combinations. A master boxer who could punish you from the outside and while backing up.

FJ Parlan - Like Tyson, Muhammad Ali went to prison for other reasons, but before that, when he was in his prime, his most admired trait in the ring is his speed. This attribute is legendary and, like Tyson's power, arguably the best in heavyweight history. When he returned, he befuddled his opponents with a more thinking-oriented fighting, but before that, he befuddled everyone else with his unprecedented speed.

Patrick Mullin - I'd have to say Ali's biggest strength was his athleticism. Ali despite popular belief had some poor fundamentals but you were hard pressed to take advantage of them because of his natural athletic ability. He could make movements in a fight with his hands, feet, head, and upper body that normally would get you into trouble but he got away with it and usually was able to take advantage of the attack you were trying to launch on the opening you thought you had. It was the same style Roy Jones Jr. used decades after.

Mike Tyson

Patrick Mullin - Tyson's biggest strength was his hand speed. The reason he was so effective inside is often mistaken for his power and shorter arms. The short arms helped, but he was no power hitter in the style of a Joe Frazier or George Foreman as people constantly confuse him to be. He wasn't so much powerful as he was overwhelming due to the amount of punches he could hit you with in such a short amount of time. Guys simply wilted because they had no answer and nowhere to go but to the canvas.

Ramon Aranda - Tyson in his prime had some of the quickest hands I've ever seen. Seeing him throw hooks and uppercuts within a matter of seconds was something to behold. He was awesome. Tyson also had an incredible chin made stronger by his thick neck and his head movement was highly impressive. Debilitating power was his biggest strength.

FJ Parlan - Mike Tyson's obvious biggest strength is power. The history of heavyweight boxing is replete with big punchers yet Tyson's rattling power still stands out, arguably even the most. His power more than made up for his 5'10" height, and he has the ability to knock out ANY FIGHTER from any era. This power was what made him such a scary force in his prime years in 1986-1989, and stretched his career in the ring despite mishaps that kept him outside of it.

Biggest Weaknesses

Muhammad Ali

FJ Parlan - It's hard to pinpoint The Greatest's weaknesses, so here, Ali's disadvantages are more intangible. Ali exudes confidence in the ring in a way that he sometimes plays around his opponents. This would not be advisable to do against a firecracker like Tyson, who can explode in his face and finish him in one punch if he tries some of his in-ring shenanigans.

Patrick Mullin - Ali was so much of a showman and would get too comfortable for his own good in certain instances. He did this against Doug Jones and Jones nearly beat him with some nifty body shots and counterpunching with his right hand. Again Ali had some poor fundamentals that someone quick enough or with a corner who can see these things may be able to take advantage of. Eddie Futch knew Ali like a book and was able to map out counter punches for Joe Frazier to use when timing and anticipating certain moves Ali would make.

Ramon Aranda - His biggest weakness was that he could sometimes allow his opponent to get in his chest much like Joe Frazier would do in their three fights.

Mike Tyson

Ramon Aranda - His biggest weakness in this fight would be his stature and arm length in comparison to Ali. Against a rangy fighter, Tyson may have problems landing anything unless he got inside. He could also show frustration if you took him deep into a fight.

FJ Parlan - Tyson became known for gassing out in fights later in his career, and from '86 to '89, his stamina was barely tested. He only had three fights going to the cards (two 10-rounders and one 12-rounder, against Tony Tucker), while he, of course, knocked everyone else out (including one in the 10th round). This is Tyson's biggest weakness. Few rival the explosiveness that Tyson presents in the first four, five rounds of the fight, and although he wasn't too susceptible to tiring in his prime, his physical abilities becomes less and less overwhelming if you extend him past the fourth round or so.

Patrick Mullin - FJ forgot to mention Tyson going the distance with Bonecrusher Smith, so I'll point that out before comments jump on him for doing so. But he did bring up Tony Tucker, who exposed that Tyson could be hit by the uppercut when trying to get inside. His head movement which was one of his main strengths, usually didn't exist after the fourth or fifth rounds because he was able to simply walk in on opponents due to them being so intimidated by him. I question how well he'd be able to move his head and upper body when getting hit with snapping jabs that would take a toll on his back the way it did Floyd Patterson and Ernie Terrell. I also question whether he would be able to maintain the output of energy to keep the head and body movement going deep into a fight.

What Exactly About Ali Would Pose the Biggest Problems for Tyson?

Patrick Mullin - I think we can all attest to the fact that Ali was a master of psychological warfare. I'm going to ignore the normal answers here like the reach advantage and range and think outside the box. Tyson had shaky mental stability, especially when he was younger and Ali could conceivably win this fight before it ever got started. Ali's showmanship and chicanery would wreak havoc on Tyson's already fragile psyche without the added physical punishment he'd likely endure while on the outside of Ali's jab. Tyson also had a bully mentality, and if you immediately hit him with a hard shot before he could do it to you he got tentative and didn't open up like he wanted to. You could see it happen when Tony Tucker popped him with an uppercut that he broke his hand on Tyson with.

Ramon Aranda - His small size would make it easier for a taller rangier fighter to stay on the outside. With Ali's stature and magnificent jab, Tyson would likely have issues trying to work his way on the inside. Ali could probably keep him at a distance and land one-twos all night.

FJ Parlan - Ali's intelligence allowed him to deal with his opponents in many different ways and he would use those tools to frustrate Tyson. He could handle Tyson like he did George Foreman and let Tyson punch himself out, he could keep the shorter Tyson at bay by boxing him to the end, or he could clinch his way to a victory (maybe an ear-bite DQ one).

What About Tyson Would Cause the Biggest Problems for Ali?

FJ Parlan - Mentally, Ali easily edges out Tyson in the ring, but the sheer physical freakishness would present Ali with a problem or two. A power punch from Tyson's is the culmination of his physical imposition, and if met by Ali, it's safe to say that it would be a big problem. Other than that, I'm not sure if Ali faced many in his career that had speed who can compete with his. Tyson, with all his power, is pretty quick too.

Patrick Mullin - Ali had problems getting to Joe Frazier once Frazier found his rhythm in the middle portions of their fight. Mike Tyson would be at the stage Frazier got to after the fourth round as soon as the bell rang to start the fight. He'd come out bobbing and weaving with forward lateral movement and immediately try to press Ali. That's something Ali wasn't used to from a guy as fast as Tyson.

Ramon Aranda - He sometimes had a tendency to let you slug away at him as we saw against Foreman, though it worked to his advantage. Still, there were times when he'd let his opponent get on the inside and bang away ala Joe Frazier and put himself in unnecessary danger. If he allowed Iron Mike to get close enough, Tyson would find plenty of openings to rip uppercuts up the middle and slam his trademark hooks to the body. Given Frazier's ability to be successful against Ali, a prime Mike Tyson would likely also have some similar success. Plus he was faster than Frazier and a bigger puncher with better head movement. His speed on the inside would frustrate Ali and during the early years, Tyson's movement and his ability to dip and dodge would make the jab difficult to land.

Who did this version of Ali(64-67) face that was most similar to Tyson and how did he perform against them?

Ramon Aranda - During this particular time frame, I'd say Sonny Liston who was as imposing a fighter as they come. He was a helluva puncher though he didn't have Tyson's speed. Still, Liston is the closest we have to a Tyson in that era. His performance? Not so great. Ali tattooed him in two fights and made it look easy. This type of performance by Ali would make Tyson look overmatched.

FJ Parlan - I honestly don't have a full grasp of this, but between '64-'67, I would say Sonny Liston comes closest in resemblance. Liston is a boxer-puncher type of fighter with great power. Tyson is known for the short work he makes out of his opponents, but he could also box. We all know how Ali (Cassius Clay) performed against Liston and began his legacy.

Patrick Mullin - I'd say the most similar opponent to Tyson that Ali had at this point was Floyd Patterson. Patterson, like Tyson, was a Cus D'Amato fighter and well schooled in the art of the peek-a-boo style, explosive hand speed, and inside fighting. Those are three of the major components of Mike Tyson and he saw and dominated those components against Floyd Patterson. I think Tyson may have had better hand speed and quicker head movement so I'd be curious to see how much of a difference it would make.

Ali's performance against Patterson was near flawless, if not especially sadistic. With Patterson refusing to call Ali by name and referring to him as Clay, Ali tortured him with stiff jabs over the course of 12 rounds. His intention was not to knock out Patterson but to torture him. Patterson, who fought out of a crouch much the way Tyson did, could not crouch because of the damage done to his back and his corner mercifully stopped the one-sided affair.


Who did this version of Tyson(86-89) face that was most similar to Ali, and how did he perform against them?

Patrick Mullin - I believe the obvious answer here is Pinklon Thomas. Thomas was trained by Ali's trainer Angelo Dundee which is first and foremost the biggest part of the comparison. Thomas idolized Ali and even tried to emulate his style in the ring. The problem was that Thomas didn't have the athleticism or physical gifts Ali did to pull off the style with complete success. He also had drug issues that shortened his prime and ruined what could have been his most formative years. Instead Pinklon was lost in the shuffle like so many of his contemporaries.

Against Thomas Tyson generally did well, but he dropped a few rounds to Pinklon. Pinklon was able to find success in round two by throwing 2-3 jabs at a time and a right hand before immediately circling away to his left as Tyson tried to wildly answer with murderous left hooks that didn't land. Tyson was hit more often with good punches by Thomas than by any of his other opponents to this point and Thomas was a poor-man's Ali.

Ramon Aranda - This one almost seems unfair as the closest thing to Ali was Larry Holmes. Unfortunately Holmes was way past his prime and didn't put up too much of a fight. If anything can come out of it though was his ability to land the jab pretty effectively while the fight lasted. Tyson however finally got close enough where he was able to land some vicious bombs to Holmes' head before taking him in the 4th round. Against Ali, Tyson would HAVE to get close.

FJ Parlan - Larry Holmes come to mind. Holmes was approximately the same size as Ali with a 6'3" height and a one-inch difference in reach (82"). Holmes was a pure boxer who relied on his legendary jab to fight on the outside, where Ali preferred to fight. Holmes was way past his prime when he was outboxed and knocked out in four by Tyson.

Inventory Breakdown

Better Jab?

FJ Parlan - Ali is a boxer whose preference is to stay on the outside, and he does this by jabbing away.

Ramon Aranda - Ali - without question he had a long, quick and powerful jab that caused everyone problems.

Patrick Mullin - Everything Ali did worked off of his jab, that says a lot.

Jab - Ali (3-0)

Right Cross?

Patrick Mullin - Ali's was quicker, struck from longer range, and executed better.

FJ Parlan - Overall, Tyson, with his combination of speed and power in his attacks, has the better punching.

Ramon Aranda - Ali - maybe not as strong of a punch per se as Tyson's but Ali threw it from long range and usually had full extension making it much more effective.

Right Cross - Ali (2-1)

Left Hook?

Ramon Aranda - Tyson - Clearly the better hook between the two. Check the highlight reels and compare their KO's...Tyson's usually came from a hook.

Patrick Mullin - Ali's left hook was underrated but not better than Mike's. Mike's shorter arms and quick waist torque behind it made his left hook devastating.

FJ Parlan - Tyson, whether to the body or to the head.

Left Hook - Tyson (3-0)

Uppercut?

FJ Parlan - Tyson. This is the second part of Tyson's vaunted two-punch combination.

Ramon Aranda - Tyson - if the KO didn't come from a left hook, it was from the uppercut. It was hellacious...just ask Marvis Frazier.

Patrick Mullin - This is where you can really spot the poor mechanics of Ali, any time he threw an uppercut(usually with his right hand) he left himself wide open for left hook counters. Tyson threw his right uppercut with extra protection by doing it inside from a southpaw stance.

Uppercut - Tyson (3-0)

Body Punching

Patrick Mullin - Tyson's primary attack was to the body and was the most effective offense of his game. Ali? Not so much.

FJ Parlan - Tyson frequently.

Ramon Aranda - Tyson - One of his signature punches was the right cross to the body before he ripped an uppercut. Tyson had debilitating bodyshots that could lift your leg in the air.

Body Punching - Tyson (3-0)

Handspeed?

Ramon Aranda - Tyson - One of the fastest hands in heavyweight boxing history during his prime...watch the recently released Tyson to see him in the gym...scary!

Patrick Mullin - I can't give an edge to either man. When on the outside Ali's speed was blinding yet on the inside it was ineffective. Tyson was blindingly fast on the inside but his speed didn't matter on the outside.

FJ Parlan - Hand Speed? Ali seemed to have the speed of a light heavyweight.

Hand speed - Push (1-1-1)

Defense?

FJ Parlan - As a boxer, Ali takes this advantage, while his five-inch height advantage adds to his un-reachability to punches.

Ramon Aranda - Ali - He could rope-a-dope you, hold you on the inside, or stay outside of your range. Ali was generally aware of where he was at all times and was difficult to hit.

Patrick Mullin - I often think Tyson's defensive capabilities aren't given enough credit, but Ali was a student of men who were very good defensively like Gene Tunney and Jack Johnson and his skills on the defensive side were superior to Mike's.

Defense - Ali (3-0)

Chin?

Patrick Mullin - Ali would go on to take shots from the likes of Earnie Shavers, George Foreman, and Joe Frazier without being stopped. Tyson could take a punch, but not as well as Ali could.

FJ Parlan - Chin? Tyson has underrated chin but Ali still has the advantage in this one.

Ramon Aranda - Ali - I know Tyson has a granite chin but at this point in time, he hadn't really been hit with anything dangerous. Ali however had taken Sonny Liston and George Chuvalo's best shots and took them well. I'm giving Ali the nod here given the quality of opposition.

Chin - Ali (3-0)

Intangibles?

Ramon Aranda - Ali - It's a no-contest here. Ali was smarter, mentally tougher and could adapt to any fighter's style. He defined "ring generalship".

Patrick Mullin - I said earlier Ali was the master of psychological warfare, and in addition he had perhaps the smartest trainer of all time in Angelo Dundee to bolster his skills. Tyson had a great trainer in Kevin Rooney and an intimidation factor, but neither of those would get to Ali.

FJ Parlan - It seems that when you talk about intangibles, everything listed here, you talk about Ali. Ali redefined the way heavyweights fight, and the heart, mental strength, game planning, adaptability, etc., was not overlooked after Ali's ring exploits.

Intangibles - Ali (3-0)

Bottom Line, Who wins and why?

FJ Parlan - In this hypothetical match-up, if Ali decides to deal with him like he did Foreman, he's spelling trouble for himself. Tyson wouldn't just punch away like Foreman did. He's a very good puncher, not just powerful. Tyson, meanwhile, has the ability to box like I've mentioned, but would be best-served if he applies swarming pressure against Ali instead. The problem here is that he is no Joe Frazier who could keep it up for a long time.

If they approach the fight that way, in the early goings of the fight, Ali would struggle mightily against Tyson's pressure, finding it hard to box him as well as finding the smaller, and moving man to hit. The important thing is for him to weather the early storm, and absorb Tyson's punches if he gets hit. Along with Ali's boxing, I imagine him clinching Tyson in this time. In the middle part of the bout, Tyson would have toned down in his attack, and Ali would be effectively transitioning to gain the upper hand in the fight. In an action-packed bout that will be similar to some Ali-Frazier action, Tyson would quit on his stool before the last round, but we won't be needing it to be a 15-rounder. We bank on Ali's smarts to let him make the necessary mental adjustments in the fight to take advantage of Tyson. But remember, there is puncher's chance, then there is Tyson's puncher chance.

Ramon Aranda - In a fight that sees Muhammad Ali on the canvas twice, "The Greatest" pulls it out via 10th round TKO. After taking Tyson's best, Ali switches up his strategy by tying up Tyson on the inside then peppering him with the jab and straight right hands from the outside. Tyson finally wears down and is fatigued from chasing Ali around that a booming right hand sends him down midway through the 10th resulting in a TKO win after Ali follows it up with a barrage of punches to force a stoppage.

Patrick Mullin - Muhammad Ali would have to face something he wasn't used to against Mike Tyson. In the early rounds of the fight Mike Tyson would be the one off to a fast start going right after Ali at full speed and effectiveness. He would pour it on for the first four to five rounds with Ali winning maybe one of them, and possibly hitting the deck. However Tyson had a tendency to get complacent and simply abandon head movement and a jab to work his way in on opponents and just try to wade right into them.

When he does this to Ali he won't illicit the same response he did from guys like Bonecrusher Smith and Jesse Fergusson who put up no resistance and just tried to survive. He'll be met with stiff jabs and an occasional lead right hand over and over again through ten rounds. It would be close on the cards, but my better judgment thinks Ali steps on the gas pedal in the 11th and stops him along the ropes.

AND THE WINNER IS…MUHAMMAD ALI!!!!


Well the three of us seemed to agree that Ali would stop Tyson in the latter rounds of the fight albeit by different means and for different reasons. Do you agree that against Iron Mike it would be Ali coming out on top? Let us know in the comments section.

I'd like to thank Ramon and FJ for their participation in this discussion and next time out we'll have our discussion on the 1992 match up that never was between Lennox Lewis and Riddick Bowe!