Fight Lover's Forum 10.29.09: The Pacquiao/Roach Union May Not Last Much Longer
Posted by A. Shakoor on 10.29.2009
Are Manny and Freddie Roach headed for a split? Will the troubles cost Manny on November 14th? I think so and I'll tell you why in this week's Fight Lover's Forum.
Pacquiao photos by Chris Farina / Top Rank
Roach photo by Laura De La Torre / 411mania.com
I have a feeling that Manny Pacquiao is going to get knocked out. I previously predicted Cotto by 11th round stoppage, and I'm sticking with that for now. First off, I should probably state that Manny Pacquiao is currently my favorite fighter. I love his all action style, and I generally enjoy his demeanor and charitable attitude outside the ring. I think Manny's accomplishments the past few years have been very good for boxing, and exciting for fight fans like us. He's winning in spectacular fashion and on the cusp of unfathomable greatness; a world title in a record, 7th weight class. That's all amazing stuff, but I'm starting to get shaky feeling about Manny's upcoming battle against Cotto.
COACH ROACH AND THE TRAINING
Freddie Roach has seemed a little snippy and whiny leading up to this fight. First off, he and Manny haggled forever with the Cotto camp over the purse and weight requirements. This wasn't too severely surprising, because it wouldn't be a Manny fight without some drama regarding negotiations or dealing with promoters. But I was hoping for things to go a little more smoothly this time, with less "fight is on, fight is off" silliness. Recently Roach has started complaining about which referee will be handling the bout, and objecting to a Hispanic like Joe Cortez. Roach has also begun some complaining about Cotto's alleged tendencies to foul--which is fine--but it's a little much to start demanding an immediate disqualification during the biggest fight in recent years. What is Roach so stressed about?
However, what really gave me cause for concern was when I found out Manny planned to open his camp in his native Philippines. As the most in demand man in his country, I thought this idea was pretty nuts. It's especially perplexing considering how successful Manny was training in the U.S. for his last two fights. Cotto is by far the biggest challenge of Manny's career, so it would make sense for him to keep with a program that has been working for him, and avoid the distractions at home. Roach wanted to have camp in either the U.S. or Vancouver. He lost the battle, and traveled over to Manny's homeland to get his guy ready for the fight of his life. Is Roach losing influence over Manny?
The idea to train in the Philippines turned out to be pretty disastrous. Besides the distractions, the islands were hit with some of the worst rainstorms in their history. The national emergency caused Manny to interrupt his training on numerous occasions. The social service and charitable demands of the disaster also put added stress on the camp. I'm not saying Manny needed to pull a Nostradamus and foresee the storms, but if he wasn't there, his camp wouldn't have been as affected. He shouldn't have been there based on the reasons I discussed earlier i.e. distractions, and why mess with a good recent pattern?
The first episode of HBO's 24/7 has me convinced that there are some serious problems going on, and the fistfight between the wannabe cornermen is the least among them. I have recently read that Roach is unhappy with how camp has gone in regards to Manny's sparring. Apparently, Manny is horsing around too much and letting his sparring partners tear into him on the ropes. Roach is angry that Manny isn't taking this most daunting challenge against Cotto more seriously. One segment that displayed this problem was Manny playing basketball. First off, Manny has a pretty decent game and ballhandling skills. Secondly, what in the blue hell is he doing out there. One turned ankle, and the fight is postponed. One torn ligament or broken bone, and the fight is off. Roach asked Manny to lie off of the b-ball inside of four weeks before the fight, but Manny was out there anyway doing his best Asian A.I. impression. Roach acted a tad bemused, but I'm sure he must have been furious under the surface.
The segment from the first episode of 24/7 that really made me think that the Roach-Manny union could be nearing an end was when Roach approached Manny about leaving the Philippines sooner to avoid being stuck in more storms. Roach was adamant about leaving, but Manny wanted to wait it out a little longer, and enjoy more time at home. Things reached such a boiling point that Roach threatened to resign. I couldn't believe it when Roach interrupted a meeting between Manny and a local politician to address the "let's get the eff out of dodge" issue. Although Roach may have been right about the need to leave, I thought he handled the situation poorly and embarrassed Manny in front of an important figure. It could have waited until after the meeting. I noticed Manny's raised eyebrows of annoyance and surprise. Roach got his way, but I wonder if this may be a key episode leading to the ultimate dissolution of the most successful team in boxing today.
NOW WHAT?
At the time of this writing, Manny and Freddie are back in the States and working hard at the Wild Card Gym. I'm very anxious to see how things play out in the next few episodes of HBO's 24/7. I'm also looking forward to Roach's upcoming quotes in the media.
In my next edition of Fight Lover's Forum, I'll focus on how things are going with Miguel Cotto; the strong, proud, champion who started training a full month before Manny got going. I'll also republish the boxing-related reasons why I think Manny is looking at a loss via late stoppage. Again, I hope I'm wrong because this Pacquiao ride into legend territory has been fascinating and good for boxing. He and Roach have created something really beautiful together. However, I see signs of serious trouble. Maybe Manny is starting to buy too much into his own hype. Maybe Roach has become too overbearing. Perhaps it's just time the two go in a different direction. It could be, that I'm way off base, and everything is everything. I'll just write, as of right now, I see Pacquiao losing a heartbreaker, and I don't see Roach in his corner for his next fight.
'It's especially perplexing considering how successful Manny was training in the U.S. for his last two fights. Cotto is by far the biggest challenge of Manny's career, so it would make sense for him to keep with a program that has been working for him, and avoid the distractions at home. Roach wanted to have camp in either the U.S. or Vancouver. He lost the battle, and traveled over to Manny's homeland to get his guy ready for the fight of his life. Is Roach losing influence over Manny?'
He trained for the last 2 fights at the WILD CARD GYM in LA, and he could not train there (or anywhere in the States) for this fight because of tax laws. Roach wanted Mexico, but in the end there were quotes from Roach that the facilities in the Philippines were acceptable.
Manny isn't the sharpest guy around, but even he knows that losing Roach would be a big blow, and given the fact that he probably has 2-3 fights left before he retires to go fail in politics, I don't think Roach leaves.
Think about it, Mayweather-Pac is probably next, and is the biggest fight of the last few years. Roach ain't missing that one.
Posted By: Vordeo (Guest) on October 29, 2009 at 10:44 AM
One more thing: Roach was perfectly justified in objecting to Joe Cortez. Leaving aside the question of whether or not he's a good referree, he isn't 'a fellow Hispanic', he's a fellow Puerto Rican. You think Cotto would've accepted a Filipino referree?
Posted By: Vordeo (Guest) on October 29, 2009 at 10:46 AM
Too much speculation, too much " I believe ", too much nonsense with this article. You sound like you work for a soap opera, and not for boxing.
Posted By: Erik (Guest) on October 29, 2009 at 12:30 PM
Manny will fight a max three times more or less than two years he will be retired. He is not going to get rid of Roach. Having lived on Mindanao near General Santos for two years I can tell you that Filipinos are very superstitious people (Wak Waks-Google it) as well as deeply religious and loyal. Manny knows what Freddie means to him and will not disrupt his Karma. As far as motivation goes, the timing of the Typhoons could not have come at a worse time for Miguel Cotto. Manny knows how devasting a loss would be to his countrymen during this time. The ravages of the Typhoons will only intensify Manny's will and determination to win this fight for his country. I feel sorry for Cotto as he will be the whipping post that Filipinos can find some relief that all in life is not lost that through Pacman's victory we still have our hope and dignity. Poor Cotto!!!
Posted By: Guest (Guest) on October 29, 2009 at 12:48 PM
go pack ur bag and change ur pen to tarot cards. u may hv more clients to fool so u wont be alone. u'r to way off base.
Posted By: mec (Guest) on October 29, 2009 at 01:14 PM
I think Pacman should drop Roach in his next fight and donate the $1 million savings to charity. Pacman can replace Roach with a nutritionist and win just the same without doubt..
Posted By: Sagisag (Guest) on October 29, 2009 at 02:21 PM
Pacquiao should drop Roach in his next fight and donate the $1 million savings to charity. I'm sure Roach would understand. Manny can hire a nutritionist for a trainer like Cotto did, and I'm sure Manny will win just the same. Pacquiao is a great boxer with or without Roach.
Posted By: Sagisag (Guest) on October 29, 2009 at 02:26 PM
Your insight has been one that came from second hand observations. I've been blessed to witness the inner workings of Team Pacquiao and I would like to inform you that it has always been organized chaos with all of his training camps. A tip for you is to look at how friendly the Cotto camp is to each other and how Joe Santiago is in Miguel's control. On the other hand, Coach Roach is the real deal and Manny respects him as he implements tactics and Manny listens and implements it well and shows in sparring and last three fights. Take a look at Shawn Porter and he's around the 160's sparring one Manny Pacquiao and significantly faster and maybe stronger than Cotto. One more thing, I have $5,000 in the bank I can bet that Freddie and Manny will not separate until Manny retires.
Posted By: guardian333 (Guest) on October 29, 2009 at 02:34 PM
you wanna bet on this?
Posted By: top contender (Guest) on October 29, 2009 at 02:58 PM
The Pacquiao-Roach union will last till the last fight and beyond. The drama around Pacquiao's training is part of boxing, business and politics shaping into one big conglomeration of Pacquiao's maturity. Right now, the Pacman has too much of boxing. He is eyeing other venues in showbiz, realbiz, and politics to make his retirement from the ring more fun and enjoyable. When the Pacman is done with boxing, he will look back to say THANK YOU to Roach - his mentor and father.
Posted By: Rufinol (Guest) on October 29, 2009 at 03:12 PM
To topcontender; Yes. Please re-read my last sentence.
Posted By: guardian333 (Guest) on October 29, 2009 at 03:32 PM
Though the article could been seen as making too much of bullshit (I agree with the problems in the camp), I think the articles as a whole is a great idea and well written.
Posted By: Loso (Guest) on October 29, 2009 at 04:54 PM
Manny, you're only 30 politics will be there even when you are gone, you can always run for office any year it comes, i think it can wait for 14 days... so focus on your fight first, then i'll vote for you that is if you win - if not, i'll bet all your fans and the masses will NOT vote for you - because you have disappointed them. two birds in one stone (what they call it) and you are a hard headed person now maybe because win or lose you're a billionaire anyway(in terms of pesos), boxing fanatics says a guy like you only comes once in a decade, so make good at what you are doing now, you can always help people by just being you without even going to politics. Now i get it, you want to be a politician because you dont want to shell out your own money and that you will use the peoples money (taxes) to bring it to them (looks good but selfish),
Mr. Koncz
The Political Adviser
Posted By: idunnoboxing (Guest) on October 29, 2009 at 04:57 PM
might want to enjoy an old but very good movie entitled "man on fire" (denzel washington);
s-e-c-u-r-i-t-y concerns are real man.
am i degrading mexico? or canada for that matter? definitely, no. but security will always have to be a priority issue -- and being at home -- in the philippines and/or hollywood (southern california) -- will very much lessen that concern; and this is not even to mention the making sure of the facilities available in each of the alternative sites, i.e. reliability of food sources while being there for an extended period of time, quality of water, etc.
all those were known factors if he trained in the philippines and/or hollywood (or anywhere in southern california) thus mitigating security concerns.
Posted By: juniedv (Guest) on October 29, 2009 at 06:38 PM
The thing is, if the writer's prediction proves to be incorrect, he'll just be silent for a couple of months and slither like a snake until the next Pacquiao fight where he will again predict a Pacquiao KO loss just like the rest of them,.As for Roach and Pacquiao's relationship, they are tight and a victory will clear all this nonsense up.. It's Pacquiao's third time on 24/7 and TV needs drama, quite obvious actually. Why people would even buy into the 'relationship souring' is beyond me. I can keep going but one important point is that Roach actually warmed up to the Baguio idea and felt that it's a good place to train with the altitude, and isolation. It's only the typhoons' fault that there was distraction. THAT IS NOT PACQUIAO'S FAULT. The writer doubting their relationship is proof enough to me that he's just a shadow writer and has never done his homework on them. He just based his whole ideas on a TV show propaganda. What a tool. Roach has very positive things to say about this upcoming fight and himself predicted a Pac KO victory. IF Pac does beat the very tough and tenacious Cotto, this writer will disappear from the Pac scene and go back to his writing about heavyweights. Writer:Fail.
Posted By: Sandman (Guest) on October 29, 2009 at 06:53 PM
This writer is like all the otehr trying to create a rift Manny will not get rid of Freddie He knows his career is based off of his knowledge Who cares Cotto started earlier in training he needs extra time to loose the weight and not have room for excuses if he looses like everyone else DLH " the best I have ever felt " Hatton " Im the biggest person hes seen and I will run thru him FMWsr " Hatton could beat Manny without my help " after fights DLH' I was to drained of weight " Hatton" I didnt prepare right " FMWsr " Hatton wouldnt listen to me" If Manny trained the same amount of time he would be wore out by the fight If Cotto gets KOed His fans excuse " He peaked to ealry in training he started to early " Manny will be fine Cotto will be ready The best man won no excuses straight up beterman won
Posted By: anubis (Guest) on October 29, 2009 at 07:00 PM
A. Shakoor was drinking too much coffee when he was writing this article.
Posted By: Louie (Guest) on October 29, 2009 at 07:03 PM
You can have your opinions, your " I believes" but let's see after the fight what excuses will you say... about Cotto being a washed up fighter... Excuses are indeed, a reality in boxing...
Posted By: In the Ring (Guest) on October 29, 2009 at 07:35 PM
Hey Shakoor, you may not be a newbie writer as I am guessing, but I know for sure you are a first timer when it comes to covering Pacquiao stories. I ain't saying your speculations are bad, but definitely you don't have enough knowledge of the topic you are covering. If you still didn't get it, try to read each and everyone's comments on this article, vast majority doesn't agree with your sepeculations and ideas, because you know nothing. I hope this will not come to your supervisor attention, otherwise I speculate that you are in trouble. good Luck!
Posted By: Heatman (Guest) on October 29, 2009 at 07:38 PM
favorite fighter? yeah right! why masquerade as a fan when the first thing you mention is that manny pacquiao is going to get knocked out. dumb! as far as manny and roach, you have no clue about the relationship these two have. manny is going to stick with roach until he retires thats no doubt. just because you see roach a little peeved in one segment of hbo 24/7 doesn't mean you got their relationship nailed down. i'm sure after the next few segments you'll be saying that these two are really the best of friends and will never be seperated. quit writing your a hypocrite who just thinks he knows everything! DUMB!!
Posted By: guest (Guest) on October 29, 2009 at 09:09 PM
The Manny-Roach union will not last much longer, not for the reason stated by Mr. Shakoor, but because Manny's incredible career is nearing its end. Manny wants to enter Philippine politics, and he is probably good for only two more big fights (Mayweather and perhaps Marquez?), after which he will retire. The Roach-Manny union is tight, just like a father-son relationship. Sure, there might be some family disagreements or even tensions along the way (it's normal), but at the end of the day, they would finish as a team together, with much mutual respect. Roach-Manny splitting or parting ways in bad blood or with much recrimination (the way Cotto parted ways with his uncle Evangelista), it's not gonna happen!
Posted By: Yes Yo! (Guest) on October 29, 2009 at 09:35 PM
You Manny groupies are great unintentional comedy. Stay gold. I happen to be a fan of his and said so in the article. If he wins I'll be happy and wrote as much in the article. R.E.A.D
Regarding the relationship with Roach, he's either intentionally "working" the fans and media to create drama, or there are problems in the relationship. It's one or the other.
Can anyone defend the interuption in front of the politician? Really?
I'll write an article praising Manny as the best fighter of his era if he wins this fight. I'm sure many of you will be absent from the comment section if he loses.
Now go back to your Manny posters, wine, candlelight and whatever else happens.
Posted By: A. Shakoor (Registered) on October 29, 2009 at 10:08 PM
It's these kinds of articles that keep controversies alive and well. The only thing that this piece does is to keep doubts circulating.
"Perhaps it's just time the two go in a different direction."
The only time they'll go in their separate ways is when Pacquiao retires.
Posted By: Troen Gonzales (Guest) on October 29, 2009 at 10:46 PM
Distractons are part of Manny's personality fact is , he thrives on it.Peole will find it hard to believe that these things "helps" him maintain focus.i doubted Manny when he agreed to fight ODLH...he was just TOO BIG TOO STRONG.After he proved people wrong doubting Manny is just feels wrong.
Posted By: ugok (Guest) on October 29, 2009 at 10:58 PM
Shakoor: You replied that Roach is either working the fans and media, or there really is something going on.I already stated the working the hype part up, so I don't see how you would reply with that as you already originally stated in your article that there is actually real drama as if you really know.I don't wanna get in detail, but There's always stuff like this with Pacquiao,Larry Merchant has called him the drama King of boxing years before your "tell-all" article.
I'll defend the 'interruption with the politician'... Minus the HBO dramatics Shakoor, tell me what happenned in the video? Manny was holding a meeting in his own time away from training, and Roach interrupted. Woooow its the freakin end of the world! If you dont catch my drift...DID ROACH REALLY HAVE TO DO THAT IN FRONT OF THE 24/7 CREW? Your'e apparently not as smart as I thought.
With the sheer amount of Pacquiao fans in the world, do you really think the message boards will be silent if he loses? It's quite possible that he does so we'll see. The thing is, its usually the other way around...The opponents' fans and biased writers usually disappear from the face of the earth after a Pacquiao fight. Good luck with that.
How are you gonna praise Pac as the greatest of this era only if he wins this next fight, at the same time predicting that he will get KO'd? 6 time world champ etc etc, if one thinks hes this era's greatest, he should already be before this fight.
You article said that maybe Pacquiao has bought too much into his own hype. I guess it comes with the territory, but I think he's held up well considering all the accolades etc..I think its you whose bought into the HBO hype machine. Sure things arent perfect, but its very clear that Roach is in charge.
Groupies lol... that's cute. I doubt anyone who read that's offended coming from a tool-box.
Posted By: Sandman (Guest) on October 30, 2009 at 01:18 AM
Shakoor: Watch this vid on youtube of Pac in the wildcard yesterday and tell me all is not good. You dont have to post this.
Posted By: Sandman (Guest) on October 30, 2009 at 07:24 AM
"How are you gonna praise Pac as the greatest of this era only if he wins this next fight, at the same time predicting that he will get KO'd? 6 time world champ etc etc, if one thinks hes this era's greatest, he should already be before this fight."
It's really just common sense. I think there are several candidates for greatest fighter of the past 10-20 years. If Pacquiao beats Cotto, though I don't think he will, but if he does, a 7th title in 7 weight classes seals the deal in my eyes. Particularly a win over a legit HOF bound welterweight like Cotto. It's simple common sense.
Any objective person can see that my article wasnt' a "tell-all". It's simply an opinion based on what I've seen on 24/7, and Roach's quotes in the media.
"you already originally stated in your article that there is actually real drama as if you really know"
I also said that everything could everything, and I could be off base. R.E.A.D Are you willing to say, "hey maybe Manny and Roach are having problems"? I don't think either one of us are psychic. But we both have opinions. However see, I can keep emotions out of my feeling about Manny.
"its very clear that Roach is in charge." Oh so you are psychic.lol
The groupie comment wasn't meant to offend. It was an accurate depiction of fans like you, irrational, emotional...quick to defend at all costs while lacking logic. You're not a fan. You're a groupie. But that's ok. I was an MJ groupie--when I was 7.
Read the first and last sentences of your first post. You have no evidence that I have a track record of "disappearing" or "slithering away" if my predictions are wrong. You're just ranting emotionally, and being dishonest..off-base.
In closing, whether Manny wins or loses, I'll be on the keyboard praising him for either making history, or having the will to try an come up short. If Manny loses, I'll look for "Sandman" in the comments section for what I hope his honest, rational analysis.
Call me a tool-box, that's fine. I'm also just a fan who can look at things objectively. Try it.
I'm done preaching here. I have no hard feelings and appreciate you and all the others for reading, or at least skimming the article. I understand that I could be debating children for all I know. That's the nature of the internet.
Have a great weekend. At least we're both rooting for Manny.
Posted By: A. Shakoor (Registered) on October 30, 2009 at 11:57 AM
Mr. A. Shakoor is contadicting his statements. How can you be a fan when you want him to lose?
Posted By: guest (Guest) on October 30, 2009 at 05:25 PM
The reason why some people such as myself replied to your article in a negative way is because 1) We totally disagree that any real rift between Pac and Roach exists, and articles such as this add fuel to a non-existent flame. 2)The first sentence predicts a Cotto KO which is fine, but you state that it's because Pac has gone way over his head with his ego etc which I disagree with. Add that with some contradictory praising and it ends in a mess in my point of view.Just say Cotto's gonna KO him because Cotto's better.
I'm sure I dont have to tell you about Pac's accomplishments,but a 6 division champ is good enough for me. If he loses, at least he didn't cherry pick like hmmm say Mayweather.
About the "tell all" comment, that's why I put it on quotes, because when you state things as a WRITER, it can be perceived as truth by the public.
""its very clear that Roach is in charge." Oh so you are psychic.lol" ...You see,that didn't come from me but from credible sources from within that say that what Roach says goes, compare that to Cotto's camp for example where Cotto is in charge, thats prolly why he canned his uncle.
I'm not sure about the accuracy of your descriptions of fans ‘like me’, I just disagreed with some of your stuff, and I replied. I’m my own man and in my own category. It might have been better if I didn't do the name calling though."Quick to defend at all costs"... I didnt do all that man.
I wasnt ranting emotionally about you slithering away, and now that I called you on it, you obviously wont disappear if Pac wins just to prove your point.It wasnt ranting, its just my prediction as you predict a Pacquiao loss, I'm entitled to predictions as well. Ok, maybe not you but trust me, Ive spoken with writers and fans before a Pac fight. I just generalized you like you categorized me as a groupie. Lol
All I've based you on was your article. But I see that your not a Pedro Fernandez or a Ricardo Lois. Sorry for calling you names , that was unnecessary. Talking about boxing over a beer at the bar sure beats the internet, I know you agree. Welp, I said what I had to say so take it easy and thanks for replying...
Posted By: Sandman (Guest) on October 31, 2009 at 07:04 AM
To a.shakoor, first I want to say what a great article you hit the nail on the head and of course the paquiao fans are going to be quik to defend him, I heard there was a box of manny jok straps being sold around the black market and the fans where sniffing them like it was glue, but once the odor is gone then these groupies will see that you weren't being disrespectful about manny but only being logical in pointing out that infact manny will get knocked out in this fight. To sandman I really do want to hear your comments after the fight is over
Posted By: shade los angeles (Guest) on October 31, 2009 at 11:17 AM
I'll be there shade, hope you do the same after the fight. I got a jockstrap waiting for you.
Posted By: Sandman (Guest) on November 01, 2009 at 03:33 AM
I have a feeling that Manny Pacquiao is going to get knocked out. I previously predicted Cotto by 11th round stoppage, and I'm sticking with that for now. First off, I should probably state that Manny Pacquiao is currently my favorite fighter. I love his all action style, and I generally enjoy his demeanor and charitable attitude outside the ring. I think Manny's accomplishments the past few years have been very good for boxing, and exciting for fight fans like us. He's winning in spectacular fashion and on the cusp of unfathomable greatness; a world title in a record, 7th weight class. That's all amazing stuff, but I'm starting to get shaky feeling about Manny's upcoming battle against Cotto. 
However, what really gave me cause for concern was when I found out Manny planned to open his camp in his native Philippines. As the most in demand man in his country, I thought this idea was pretty nuts. It's especially perplexing considering how successful Manny was training in the U.S. for his last two fights. Cotto is by far the biggest challenge of Manny's career, so it would make sense for him to keep with a program that has been working for him, and avoid the distractions at home. Roach wanted to have camp in either the U.S. or Vancouver. He lost the battle, and traveled over to Manny's homeland to get his guy ready for the fight of his life. Is Roach losing influence over Manny?
At the time of this writing, Manny and Freddie are back in the States and working hard at the Wild Card Gym. I'm very anxious to see how things play out in the next few episodes of HBO's 24/7. I'm also looking forward to Roach's upcoming quotes in the media. 
