411 Boxing Fact or Fiction 11.17.09: Manny’s Greatness, Chavez Jr’s Peak, Cotto As Champion Again and More

Posted by Ryan Bates on 11.17.2009

How great is Manny Pacquiao? How great is Miguel Cotto? How great is Julio Cesar Chavez Jr? These and other great questions will be thrown into the ring as Ali Shakoor and Ryan Bates step into the Fact or Fiction Arena!


Original image by Rafael Rivera

Have you recovered from "Firepower" yet? An amazing battle was waged in Las Vegas, but we still have Super Six issues to discuss, and Ramon... well, Ramon is off with the wifey-to-be looking at china patterns or something. He's learning the hard way that the walk to the ring is intense, but not as much so as a walk to the altar! So I'll be overseeing this week's "Fact or Fiction," and I'll be in the blue corner. Ali Shakoor, who gives us "Fight Lover's Forum" every week, is in the red, so it's a no-rules, no-ref East Coast vs. West Coast throwdown! In the words of Mills Lane... "LET'S GET IT ON!"

Round 1: Manny Pacquiao is the greatest fighter of his era.


Ali Shakoor FACT : I'm calling his era, the past 10 years. I don't care that he got KO'd twice when he was a weight drained kid, or lost to future Hall-of-Famer, Erik Morales by decision in 2005. There's no shame in any of those losses, and the Morales loss was avenged in dramatic fashion twice. I have to say FACT. In less than 10 years, Manny has beaten Barrera 2x, Morales 2x, Marquez, De la Hoya, Hatton, and Cotto. He's knocked out all those fighters except Marquez. The pure dominance that Manny has shown in his last 4 fights is just surreal. He had physically outgrown 130. If JMM fought him at 140, he'd get destroyed inside of 4 rounds. The other candidates for this Best of the Era title would be, Hopkins, Jones, Jr., Calzaghe, Calderon, Vitali Klitschko, Mosley and Mayweather in no particular order. I think Manny has fought better competition, and looked more dominant than those fighters in the past 10 years. I mean 7 titles in 7 divisions? Really? I feel comfortable calling Manny Pacquiao one of the top ten greatest PFP fighters of all-time. If he beats Mayweather, I may just simply call him the best. Right now it's Federer, Kobe, Tiger, and Pacman. He represents the best of his sport.

Ryan Bates FACT : Ali is right on the money. World champion in seven weight divisions, defeated the greatest fighters of the time, insists on working hard, that SHOULD be enough. But the fact that he takes on increasingly more difficult challenges, AND looks better every time he steps in that ring? Hands down, close the book.

Score: 1 for 1 -- Should we start using the "of all time" phrase? I think so.

Round 2: Julio Cesar Chavez Jr has peaked as a fighter.

Ali Shakoor FICTION : He's still just a "kid" at 23. I don't think he's peaked. I do think he needs a new trainer. He seems out of shape at 160. I think he needs better training and a commitment to fight at 154. He has some decent heart, and goes to the body well. He didn't show much heart or fire this past Saturday, but he's done better in the past. He'll never be a great fighter, but I see no reason why he shouldn't have a good career, and pick up a minor alphabet belt or two before it's over. First, he needs a change in attitude and better training. Otherwise, he'll be a bum fighting at light heavyweight in a few years, all fat and pathetic. Hopefully, the backlash from Saturday is a wakeup call.

Ryan Bates FICTION : But the sad part is, you'll never see anything better. His pitiful performance against Troy Rowland on Saturday was barely a sparring session at best. In fact, I'm sure I've seen better, more exciting sparring sessions here in Vegas. IN FACT, I'm pretty sure I've BEEN IN better, more exciting sparring sessions here in Vegas.

Junior is content to live off his daddy's name and his daddy's fame while Senior is off getting hammered somewhere. If Junior actually gave a damn, we might see a new Mexican icon. When he puts his mind to it, a la Chavez Jr./Vanda II, he's not half bad. As it is, he's nothing more than a joke in the boxing world.

If you want to see what the Chavez lineage SHOULD be like, find a way to watch little brother Omar Chavez fight. He's the one putting in the hard work and providing the exciting fights.


Score: 2 for 2 - Junior, we knew Chavez Sr., and you, sir, are no Chavez Sr.


Round 3: Miguel Cotto will be a champion again.


Ali Shakoor FACT : Pacquiao called it a very difficult fight, and it was a brutally, competitive war for 4 rounds or so. Look, nobody beats Manny right now in the 140s. Cotto is still on hell of a fighter, and is still the guy who beat the great Shane Mosley 2 years ago, and Clottey a few months ago. What Cotto needs is a nice long rest. I'd recommend he take 2010 off. He's only 29, and has taken a solid beating in 3 of his last 4 fights. Cotto should regroup, rest his body, and fight a couple of tomato cans in early 2011. Then he can challenge one of the weaker belt-holders in late 2011 when he'll only be about 30-31. Maybe then, he'll defend and get another really large payday or two before he turns 33-34 and ready to retire. Or he can fight stiffs and babysit his belt until he retires like so many other champions have. Cotto has fought the very best at an unusually prolific clip. I want him to just be healthy and happy from here on out. He's got nothing left to prove as far as heart and competition are concerned. As of right now, I think he's the 3rd best welterweight in the world behind Pacman and Mayweather. But I don't want to see him in any more wars any time soon, if ever. He just needs a break, and then come back to concentrate on safe fights and making money. His legacy is solid. He'll go to the HOF. If however, he jumps right back into the upper tier mix in early to mid 2010, we'll see a repeat of Fernando Vargas in the coming years. And that will just be tragic.

Ryan Bates FACT : Miguel Cotto's two losses are to: 1.) potentially-loaded Reyes gloves, and 2.) the best fighter of this era, and definitely in the mix when you mention "of all time." Put him in with, as Bob Arum called it, "a normal fighter," and Cotto definitely stands tall among them. The welterweight division is talent loaded. Take some time off, rest, heal, and come back to fight again. There are plenty of great fights out there, and when your only two losses are to a cheater and someone you yourself say is "the best fighter out there," you don't hang your head in shame.

Score: 3 for 3 - Miguel, we'll wait for you. We swear.

And now for the championship rounds! PACQUIAO ROUNDS!!

Round 4: You have high expectations for Ward vs. Kessler on Saturday.


Ryan Bates FICTION : If you had asked me this two weeks ago, or two weeks from now, I probably would have said fact. But I am still kind of in the post-orgasmic afterglow of Pacquiao/Cotto, and this fight won't hold a candle to it. However, I do expect a good, solid show of slickness from Ward, and Kessler will try impress a bullying style on him. But compared to what I just witnessed... I know it's not fair, but the timing is just wrong.

Ali Shakoor FACT : I feel what you're saying Rhino, but by this Saturday, I'll be back in Super 6 mode. I have high expectations that this will be the most competitive, and evenly matched, skill-filled fight of the opening round. I'm anxious to see what Ward can do in the "by a country mile" biggest fight of his life. It's all relative, but my expectations are high, for what it is...and a Pacman extravaganza it ain't.

Score: 3 for 4 -- Oh, I suck. I know. Deal with it. I'll still be watching it and enjoying it!


Round 5: Jermain Taylor is going to continue with the Super Six. This is not a good thing.

Ryan Bates FACT : I'm sure he's just doing it for a paycheck, which is not too shabby, but his next opponent is Andre Ward. And after that is Mikkel Kessler. Do you really want to be 0-3 with brain trauma? In my list of things that I enjoy, "brain trauma" is pretty damn far down the list, in between "calculus" and "Glenn Beck."

Ali Shakoor FACT : I agree word for word with Rhino. Taylor can't win, and he's going to get hurt. I also share the his disdain for calculus and Glenn "fake tears" Beck. I hope Taylor fails the pre-fight physical, so that he's forced to retire. I know, not likely. I have a feeling the Jermain Taylor story will end very badly inside the ring or out in the next 5 years. Of course, let's all hope I'm wrong. Situations like this are by far my least favorite part of boxing. It's just bad for the sport from every angle.

Score: 4 for 5 - JT's career is starting to look a little less like the original Rocky and more like Rocky Four... teen.


Round 6: Mayweather can't hide...he MUST fight Pacquiao now.


Ryan Bates FACT : Now? He should have done so in September, instead of making Marquez come up two weight classes then buying a $600,000 advantage. We all know Manny likes to sing, and right now he could dedicate a song to Floyd: "Anything You Can Do I Can Do Better." He ducked Mosley, now Mosley's going to take it out on Andre Berto. He ducked Cotto, so if he goes after Cotto now he's trying to fight damaged goods, which is one of Floyd's favorite excuses to pull ("Pacquiao fights my damaged goods!"). Floyd's golden road takes him directly into the path of Manny Pacquiao. Manny can start singing a new song to Floyd: "Nowhere to run to, baby... nowhere to hide..."

Ali Shakoor FACT : At this point, there's no excuse for ducking Manny. He's scared of Mosley. If Mosley suddenly turns old against Berto (not likely), Floyd may try to call out the winner of that fight. But the fight that needs to be made is Manny v. Floyd. Manny wants it, and he wants it on fair terms. This fight should be a 50/50 split. The only way I give Floyd a higher split, is if Manny v. Cotto does under 1 million PPV buys. But from what I'm hearing, it should be well over. We know Floyd won't take short money. Let's just cut the BS, and split everything 50-50. I'd even let Floyd weigh 147, because it really won't matter, and who needs the drama of Floyd screwing around with the weight stips again?

The two greatest fighters in the world are in the same weight range. This is very rare. Floyd talks so much about his legacy, but it's incomplete without fighting Manny. The storylines are so clear with PFP king v. PFP king, Roach v. the Mayweather brothers, Manny was more dominant against 2 opponents in common, and the winner can call himself the best fighter of his era with no debate. Mayweather is scared, because he's already making up excuses to avoid the fight about Manny getting KO'd as a teenager and 20 year old. His fears would be funny if not so infuriating. This fight needs to happen. And I can't wait to see Floyd get knocked the fuck out.

Final Score: 5 for 6 - Floyd needs to put his "Money" where his mouth is and grow a pair. And if he plans on facing Manny, it better be a big, heavy, brass pair.

OK, pretty even down the line. Would have had a perfect sweep if I wasn't still reeling in the afterglow of Pacquiao/Cotto. But does that mean YOU agree with us? Dare you step up to Ali and I? Let us know... is it Fact? Or Fiction?