411 Fact or Fiction 12.08.09: Mayweather/Pacquiao In March, Roy Jones Jr.'s Legacy, More

Posted by Joe Roche on 12.08.2009

Will Manny Pacquiao vs. Floyd Mayweather happen in March? Has Roy Jones Jr.'s legacy been tarnished over the last few years? Will Kevin Johnson beat Vitali Klitschko? 411's Ryan Bates and PJ Cassidy debate these topics and more in the latest edition of 411 Boxing Fact or Fiction!

Welcome to a super special edition of 411Boxing's Fact or Fiction I am your host for the evening Joe Roche standing in for the very married Ramon Aranda. This week your competitors will be Ryan Bates and PJ Cassidy who will also be starting our first test run of the Fact or Fiction competition. Try to stay along folks but essentially instead of just laughing about both of their dumb answers I'm going to try and award points based on creativity so that at the end of our six rounds we should have a clear cut favorite, while the losing writer can hang his head in shame like he so rightfully deserves. Ladies and gentleman it's showtime!

Round One. You believe that Roy Jones Jr.'s legacy has been tarnished in the last five years?

Ryan Bates: FICTION: I don't believe it's been tarnished. I just believe it's come to a screeching halt and possibly collided into the brick wall known as time. We can't forget that up until 2002 or 2003-ish, anything with the words "light heavyweight" in it belonged to Roy Jones Jr. He was the undisputed light heavyweight champion. If there was any tarnishing, it happened in 2004 and 2005, when he picked up an L from a Glen Johnson rematch, and a pair of losses in a rematch and three-match against Antonio "Mason Tarver" Dixon.

Anything beyond that, though, is simply RJJ not knowing when enough is enough. He should listen to Kenny Rogers a little more because he simply doesn't know when to fold them. His best win since 2004 is a lopsided victory against Jeff Lacy. Really? Jeff Lacy? Jeff Lacy probably recites Marlon Brando's speech from "On the Waterfront" every night in the mirror: "I could had class. I coulda been a contenda. I coulda been somebody, instead of a bum, which is what I am." Otherwise, he has wins against a far-over-the-hill Felix Trinidad and against C-lister Omar Sheika, and losses to elite guys, like Joe Calzaghe. And... Danny Green... pfft. Point is, his "legacy" work was done long ago. This is just the story of a man who counted his money while sittin' at the table. And if you know the song, "There'll be time enough for countin' when the dealin's done."

P.J. Cassidy: Fiction - In the short term, I think it has as his recent losses certainly have a larger impact on our psyche. However, when we look back 5 or 10 years from now we're going to look at his days at his campaigns at Super Middleweight and his early years as a Light Heavyweight. However, I do think his legacy could have been better based on his abilities but alas he was more content with fighting the David Telesco's of the world. Regardless, Roy was probably the best fighter of the 90's and will be remembered as such.

Scorecard: Both guys go FICTION out the gate so it comes down to which argument I enjoyed more and while Ryan tried to sneak out the round with word count, I tend to agree with P.J. that Roy's legacy is a bit tarnished right now, though long term he'll still go down as one of the all time greats by being the man in the 1990's. 1-0 P.J.




2. You think that Bernard Hopkins and David Haye is a better fight than if Hopkins fought Chad Dawson?

Ryan Bates: FICTION. Let it never be said that I subscribe to double standards. We all whine and complain that Floyd Mayweather Jr. has not fought elite opposition in their prime (which he hasn't, but I'll give the disciples some rest from having to defend their ever-increasingly-ludicrous positions... at least for one question). So why should Bernard Hopkins get that pass? I understand he's about 200 years old. But he fights like he's still one of the elite, and he demands to see himself as one of the elite, so elite fighters he shall have, and right now, the top of the food chain at light heavyweight is Chad Dawson. Take on Dawson, and if you make it past him (question mark) then go after David Haye. Clean out your division first, B-Hop. Then play in other yards.

Side note: I kinda want to jam a Clapper in the side of David Haye's head, just so if he starts talking too much (as usual) I can just clap him off. "Clap on **clap clap** clap off **clap clap** clap on clap off... the heavyweight champ. **clap clap**"

P.J. Cassidy: Fact - This is a tougher question to ask because the Dawson fight would match the two top light heavy's in the world. I'm going to say fiction, however, because I think we've already seen the fight happen. It reminds me of when Hopkins fought Jermain Taylor a few years back. Hopkins is clearly more talented than Chad Dawson but at this point in his career I don't think he can hang with such a young freak of an athlete like Chad Dawson. I think you'd see Chad Dawson's age and workrate carry a fight he wouldn't have even come close to winning say 10 years ago. I think Hopkins has a much better shot against David Haye simply because Haye relies more on his power than work rate which I believe B Hop is more capable of handling.

Scorecard: Frankly P.J. lost me when he said that Hopkins is clearly more talented than Chad Dawson. That might have been true at one point – though I tend to think Dawson is a pound for pound elite fighter who doesn't get the right amount of respect because of the division he happens to dominate and for that reason we're all tied up folks. 1-1



3. You believe that we will see Manny Pacquiao v. Floyd Mayweather Jr. on March 13, 2010?

Ryan Bates: FICTION. And the reason I picked "Fiction" is because the column is not titled "Fact or Complete and Total Bullshit." Of COURSE it won't happen on March 13, if at all, and The Pretty Money Boy Child KNOWS THIS! Let me point out two key points of evidence, and then tie it together for you, a la Perry Mason, and/or Matlock. (I'm big on the pop culture references today, aren't I?)

EVIDENCE A: Floyd didn't agree to these terms until he was fairly certain that Manny was going to run for Congress in the Philippines, which usually requires March to be key campaign time.

EVIDENCE B: Floyd has agreed to "terms," but nobody knows what these terms are. Neither do Manny or Top Rank. So what? I can agree to any terms! In fact, I just now agreed to terms that will fulfill the deal between me and PJ Cassidy wherein he will give me one million dollars out of his own pocket. (By the way, man, thanks for that. The documents are in the mail.)

So let's talk about what will REALLY happen now.

Scenario 1: Floyd will dig in his heels, now that he knows Pacquiao will indeed be a Congressional candidate, and insist on March 13, 2010, to be the fight date. At the very first sign of any sort of kickback, Floyd will call everything off and say "SEE??? Manny don't wanna fight me!!!"

Scenario 2: We don't know these "terms." Floyd probably asked like something re-stinkin-diculous like a 70/30 split in his favor. Or a tag team match with The Big Show in his corner or something. Manny's going to take a look at these "terms" and fall over laughing, and when they send back a counter-offer, Floyd will call everything off and say "SEE??? Manny don't wanna fight me!!!"

Everyone out there who's getting their Floyd-rections going, calm down. It may be a little... well... premature.

P.J. Cassidy: Fact - The media has reported enough on this fight that a back out at this point, would result in a PR disaster for all parties involved. Their is too much publicity and too much riding on this fight for it to be postponed due to ego's. You can try to point out as many conspiracy theories about Floyd as you like but Floyd is not Niccolo Machiavelli, the man's a professional fighter. I don't know how much credit you give Floyd but I don't picture him as an evil mastermind as much as I do a supremely talented fighter in a state of arrested development. He has far too big of an ego to have it trashed in the media. Floyd let's himself be trashed when it relates to the promotion of a fight, he's not going to back out of this fight when doing so would do irreparable damage to his career.

Scorecard: I should mention at this point that Ryan got his question early on Friday so he didn't know about the "Manny won't start his campaign until April" stories, or the fact that Manny agreed to 50/50 and a 147 welterweight title fight so he struggled in this round. I also think P.J. is right when he says that Floyd doesn't mind being trashed if it means $$$ but he won't get trashed for the sake of being trashed. 2-1 P.J.


- Gotta admit the man loves the spotlight

AND NOW….THE CHAMPIONSHIP ROUNDS!!

4. You would like to see Ali Funeka and Joan Guzman have a rematch?

P.J. Cassidy: Fiction - Much like the Sergio Martinez/Kermit Cintron fight, is their really a point to the fight? The public saw who won and ultimately that's what matters. Guzman can't hang with Funeka's size and jabbing ability so where's any interest in a rematch?

Ryan Bates: FACT – I agree with what PJ is saying here, and we all saw who won. However, the bleeding-heart liberal inside me who loves justice, equality, and fairness in everything (since that's what Progressives by nature DO) would like to see a rematch just so there's a mark on Ali Funeka's resume saying "Yes, I am officially victorious over Joan Guzman." If the fight doesn't happen, though, I won't lose any sleep over it.

Scorecard: I see Ryan trying to play the heartstrings here – BUT – the only thing that could happen in a rematch is that Funeka could perform worse and actually lose and for that reason I agree with the Martinez/Cintron logic that even though Funeka didn't get the win, everyone knows he won that fight so he'll be able to move on without worrying about the Guzman cloud hanging over his head. 3-1 P.J.

5. You think it is in the best interest of boxing for the Boxing Promoter's Association to begin rating referees and officials?

P.J. Cassidy: Fiction - Sounds like a good idea on paper but the Promoter's whose thoughts and opinions that would carry the most weight are also the same promoters who have received favorable decisions in the past, I think it'd end up being a tool abused by the larger promoters to justify fights that went in their direction. The only time I want to see such a rating is if it's done by a national commission and we know that's not coming anytime soon.

Ryan Bates: FICTION – Exactly what PJ said. Promoters have their favorite judges and referees just like everyone else. So we're going to leave a question of fairness and objectivity to this Rogue's Gallery? That sounds like a great idea. Let's have the lions stand guard in front of the zebra exhibit at the zoo. I'm sure nothing bad will happen there either. What we need is an independent, national commission in the US, unattached to any promoters or sanctioning bodies, so at least we know our officials in the States are at least held to a uniform standard.

Scorecard: You know I absolutely wanted to pull for Ryan here but then he went and just agreed with everything P.J. said. C'mon Ryan you gotta throw punches to win rounds my friend. 4-1 P.J.

6. You believe that Kevin Johnson will beat Vitali Klitschko for the WBC Heavyweight Title?

P.J. Cassidy: Fiction - I think he has a better shot than most are giving him but not enough to actually think he's going to win. Kevin's always been a strong technical fighter who's great at picking his spots and recently he's developed something of a punch that could challenge Vitali. However, Kevin's not fought even close to the opposition that would prepare him for such a fight. I'm taking Vitali by late round decision.

Ryan Bates: FICTION – Kevin who? Klitschko before 9.

Scorecard: That's what I'm talking about Ryan – pithy, to the point, and correct. Chalk me up as one of those people not giving Kevin Johnson much of a chance on Saturday night. Vitali Klitschko is arguably the best heavyweight champion we've got and many think he's even better then Wladimir, I just don't see Kevin Johnson hanging for the full twelve against Dr. Ironfist. 4-2 P.J. Cassidy



Final Verdict: In a classic Fact or Fiction contest we had two writers with very similar views scoring points based on arguments. I'm sure the Ryan Bates supporters out there will call me the Gale Van Hoye of 411manai.com but the I just felt that P.J. Cassidy did more to deserve the win. Stay tuned next week as two new competitors jump into the ring and battle for Fact or Fiction supremacy.