411 Boxing Fact Or Fiction 12.30.09: Ward and Gatti, Luevano, and More Blood Testing

Posted by Ryan Bates on 12.30.2009

Is the blood work controversy between Mayweather and Pacquiao a legit roadblock or just hype? Was Ward vs. Gatti the best trilogy of the decade? Does Steven Luevano stand a chance against Juan Manuel Lopez? Is Gary Shaw Promotions a second rate operation? 411’s Patrick Cassidy and Jonathan Yaghoubi debate these topics and more in the latest edition of 411 Boxing Fact or Fiction!



Welcome to this week's Fact or Fiction! Ramon has stepped away from the editor's desk for a few days on some personal matters, and our best wishes are with him. But this means I'm in charge of this week's Fact or Fiction, and I'll be scoring the answers! This will be the final exhibition bout on Fact or Fiction; starting in 2010, the scores will be kept and winners will be crowned. Facing off this week, my little right-wing love nugget Patrick Cassidy goes up against Jonathan Yaghoubi who has pulled himself away from the New York Knicks games long enough to grace us with some boxing knowledge.

I know everyone's been talking about Pacquiao/Mayweather, so this will be a Testgate-free edition of "Fact or Fiction," so in the words of Kenny Bayless, "What I say, you must obey!"



1. Gatti/Ward was the best trilogy of the decade.

Patrick Cassidy -- FACT. I know the purists will take Vazquez/Marquez but Ward and Gatti has something special that the other lacks. Maybe I have a bit of East Coast bias but I know some of my boxing friends who still talk about Gatti/Ward like it's a family member. I remember when and where I was for each of those fights, I can't say the same about Vazquez/Marquez. That stuff matters when gauging importance. Not to mention Gatti/Ward had such a great storyline of a hard nosed fighter looking for his one chance to make something of his career and the grizzled veteran looking for redemption. You can't beat that.

Jonathan Yaghoubi – FACT. With all due respect to the Vazquez-Marquez trilogy, there was no series of fights this decade that even came close to the amount of drama that Gatti/Ward brought us. It was not just the best trilogy of the decade, but it might been the best in the history of this great sport. These guys were true warriors and represented what boxing is about. No showboating, just fighting. The first fight of the trilogy was the best, and it deserves a place among the handful of greatest boxing matches in the history of the sport. Round 9 of fight one is perhaps the greatest display of toughness and guts you will ever see in boxing. Who could ever forget Jim Lampley yelling at referee Frank Cappuccino to stop the fight for Gatti as he was just being battered. But Gatti stayed on his feet and fought back to go the full 10 rounds.

The second and third fights were no different as they these guys continued to give it everything they had and more. The second fight was great because Ward wouldn't quit even though Gatti was obviously getting the best of him. In third fight, Arturo Gatti broke his right hand in the fourth on a punch to Ward's hip early in the fight which forced him to change his whole style. After the round, Gatti told his corner that he had broken his hand, but when his trainer asked what he wanted to do, he didn't hesitate: "I'm gonna keep fighting."

Marquez and Vazquez was great but two of those fights didn't even go the distance. Ward and Gatti did not even think about giving or letting the ref stop the fight. It's pretty sad writing this because I just don't think we will ever get as great trilogy ever again.

ROUND 1: Seems like a feeling-out round as both guys are making the same points. I'm somewhat surprised at the lack of enthusiasm for Vazquez/Marquez, though. I'm giving it to P-Cass because of what Yags said at the end, that we would never see as great a trilogy again. I disagree. Great fights happen when you least expect it; same for great trilogies. Red corner takes the round. 1-0 Cassidy.



2. Despite major successes and new world champions, you still consider Gary Shaw Promotions second banana to Top Rank and Golden Boy Promotions.

Patrick Cassidy – FACT. Gary Shaw is undoubtedly one of the smartest guys in the sport. He doesn't have the huge bankroll of his rivals and yet he consistently produces great champions which says a lot about his abilities. However, I don't believe championships makes you a premiere promoter, star quality does. I can't compare Manny Pacquiao to Chad Dawson or Shane Mosley to Timothy Bradley. Gary Shaw has great fighters but he's yet to turn them into great stars.

Jonathan Yaghoubi – FACT. Gary Shaw is starting to get up there but isn't quite on the Top Rank or Golden Boy class just yet. Shaw knows his boxing very well and has got some great talent in his stable with the likes of Chad Dawson and Rafael Marquez. However, they just aren't the star boxers that Rank and GB have. Shaw can put together the exciting fight but does not have the guys to put on a big PPV fight. He may have some champions but what does it all mean if people don't know who they are? When I see one of Shaw's boxers take part of a 24/7 show, then we will know that he is finally one of the top promoters in the business.

ROUND 2: Another very close round that could have gone either way. Both guys started well by giving props to Shaw, but then launched into arguments about great fighters versus great stars, which I understand. However, to me, having champions is just as important as having stars. Those who chase the belts have to go after champions, and if you have those champions, you will have to be involved. Also, I as the referee have to issue a warning to Yags: You're waiting to see Shaw's boxers on 24/7? Andre Dirrell is part of Fight Camp 360 on Showtime right now. Red corner takes the round. 2-0 Cassidy.


3. OK, I lied... there will be Pacquiao/Mayweather questions. With the bloodwork controversy in the press, you think this is a legitimate stumbling block, and not just "hype."

Patrick Cassidy – FICTION. I've wavered on this throughout the week before settling on a good old fashioned conspiracy theory. The promoters already have a great storyline of the obnoxious bad guy vs the humble good guy but what if they realized they could make even more cash if they got us to believe the guys legitimately hate each other? I think that's where this story comes to play, their probably is some legitimacy in the negotiations but I really think it's more hype than substance.

Jonathan Yaghoubi – FACT. This is no shocker to me that this fight is still not signed. But I never thought it was not going to be about the money. Mayweather and his father are convinced that Pacquiao has done steroids in the past. Floyd has said that the Philippines is known for being one of the biggest steroid providers in the world. He knows this is going to probably be the toughest fight of his career and will do whatever takes to slow Manny down before the actual fight. I don't think this is hype at all because people are going to buy and watch this fight no matter what. The hype has been there for months and Pacquiao and Mayweather should know that. These guys are the top two stars in the sport and just want to make sure that one is not getting over on the other. At the end of the day, this fight will get it done because they just "have" to.

ROUND 3: There's enough hype as it is already. It's like adding water to a full glass; it just spills over. There may be a conspiracy theory at hand, but I don't think it's for publicity's sake. Blue corner takes the round. 2-1 Cassidy.


And now, The CHAMPIONSHIP ROUNDS!



4. Yeah right. Who was I kidding, Pacquiao/Mayweather-free... Anyway... Pacquiao's slander lawsuit against Mayweather's team has merit and should be seen through in court.

Jonathan Yaghoubi – FACT. You can't really blame Manny on this one. Wouldn't anyone else in the sports world be upset if it happened to them? Manny Pacquiao is a very proud and respected warrior in the realms of boxing. He does not want anything or anyone to take away from his wonderful performances he has provided for boxing fans over his career. The Mayweather camp is trying to throw Pacquiao off with these false allegations. Manny should pursue the lawsuit regardless what happens with this fight. The possibility of seeing Mayweather and Golden Boy pay up to Manny would be pretty sweet for him. If Manny is not hiding anything, he should not hesitate to sue and really stick it in Mayweather and his father's face.

Patrick Cassidy – FICTION. It's pretty simple and doesn't need a long explanation... Unless Manny Pacquiao can prove Floyd Mayweather set out to slander his name intentionally he doesn't have a case with any judge or jury in the United States. So unless he has some secret tapes or some other form of self-incrimination this case is going to get thrown out.

ROUND 4: As the referee, now I have to give P-Cass a warning! The question wasn't "Would Pacquiao win a suit?" It was "does it have merit and should it be heard?" This should be followed by the answer "Yes." Blue corner gets the round. 2-2 Draw.


5. OK, let's try to get back on to other boxing... You think Steven Luevano can pull off the upset over Juan Manuel Lopez in their January 23rd bout.

Jonathan Yaghoubi – FACT. If you asked me this before Lopez's fight with Mtagwa, I would have said fiction for sure. Despite the decision victory, his win was far from his most impressive. Lopez came within seconds of being knocked out at the end of the 11th round and nearly again in the 12th. Despite all that, he gained a great deal of experience in the fight and will come into his fight against Luevano as a smarter fighter. He needs to be that if he is going to win this fight.

Luevano is very skilled fighter who I feel will give Lopez a real run for his money. Luevano has been dominant in the Featherweight division with a record of 37-1-1 and is in a position where the most competition he can get is by facing an explosive smaller fighter who is willing to move up and try his luck in the Featherweight division. It should be very interesting to see not only how Luevano deals with Lopez's aggression but also how Lopez deals with Luevano's smart, tactically sound boxing.

Like I said, Luevano is a skilled boxer and will not put himself in any position to be knocked out and will make Lopez look unimpressive the first half of the fight. I do think Lopez will figure out a way to get the victory but Luevano has the goods to pull of the upset.

Patrick Cassidy – FACT. I say fact but it has more do to with Luevano's impressive track record rather than some flaw in JuanMa. To say that Lopez is somehow vulnerable following Mtagwa goes against everything we know about Puerto Rican boxers. They have never been strong defensive fighters and have been known to get tagged. IE Felix Trinidad in numerous fights, Miguel Cotto against Demarcus Corley and Ricardo Torres. I could continue with examples but then everyone would just get bored and sad and we don't want that. Look, Luevano has a chance because he's beaten some great opposition (Nicky Cook, Bernabe Concepcion, Cris Cruz) and he represents a huge step up for a fighter whose had two tomato cans thrown at him in succession. Enough with this Mtagwa crap, Puerto Rican fighters are offensive creatures who are going to get tagged but usually are able to overcome it with a powerful smothering offense. JuanMa fits that description.

ROUND 5: It seems like both fighters are hitting their stride now, as both Patrick and Jonathan make separate, correct, and excellent points. I have no choice but to call this round a draw. 2-2-1 draw. The last round will decide it!


6. Sorry, okay, last question about Testgate... due to the drug test roadblock, Pacquiao/Malignaggi is being discussed. If this Plan B is signed, it would drop your interest in Manny's next bout from MASSIVE to ZERO in no time flat.

Photo courtesy of Hogan Photos

Jonathan Yaghoubi – FICTION. My interest would be right in the middle but leaning more toward massive. Anytime Manny Pacquiao fights, I am going to always be very interested when he steps into the ring. A fight with Malignaggi would be a very interesting and intriguing matchup. Paulie is on a real high right now coming of his impressive victory over Juan Diaz. The guy talks a big game and a fight with the biggest star in the sport could bring us another side of Malignaggi we have not seen. He has also accused Manny of taking PED's and you know Pacquaio will not forget that. I think the contrast of both these guy's styles is fascinating to me and while I won't give Malignaggi a shot, I think he could make it very entertaining.

Patrick Cassidy – FACT. The average boxing fan wouldn't care but if you mean the general public than yes there would be considerable disappointment. Paulie (Sorry Rhino, I guess I'm disqualifying myself on this question) and Yuri Foreman are complete unknowns to the average sports fan who would look upon a fight with either man as a complete joke. Unless they get the fight on some form of network or cable TV, you can kiss any interest in this fight goodbye. To put it bluntly, imagine you're scoring major points with an absolute 10 all night, you know you're going to bag this one and it's the best looking person you'll ever be with. At the last second she walks out of bed before anything happens and in walks a solid 4. Are you going to have much interest after the expectations you had?

ROUND 6: Both men are throwing bombs, and Cassidy must be aware that the fight is close with his remark. And I am quite a bit more fair than the staff here gives me credit for! Yags says that Pacquiao/Malignaggi would be an intriguing fight but I just don't see it. I picked Pacquiao over Mayweather; what makes you think that Malignaggi would be a more contested or even interesting bout? Floyd's ego may cause him to get stupid and trade with Manny, but Malignaggi knows that he does not have immense power, so he would certainly be on the move all night, and would you blame him for that? The only thing I would really look forward to from this fight is 24/7. Malignaggi would be HILARIOUS, guarantee it. Red corner takes the round. 3-2-1... your winner, by decision... PATRICK "I LOVE GEORGE W. BUSH" CASSIDY!!!

In honor of Patrick's win, here's a hot picture of Sarah Palin.



Ooooh... feel the hot, pent-up, repressed Neo-Conservative sensual frustration...