Four Player Co-Op 6.24.09: Red Ring, Starcraft II, Oblivion, Bioshock, Webcomics And More
Posted by John De Large on 06.24.2009
Is it time to do something about the Red Ring Of Death? Who's excited for Starcraft? Are Oblivion and Bioshock worth $40? What webcomics suck? John De Large, Todd Vote, Drew Robbins and Sean Garmer discuss this and more in this week's edition of The Co-Op!
JOHN DE LARGE (Current Co-Op Host, freelance writer) has joined the game SEAN GARMER (Reviewer) has joined the game DREW ROBBINS (Former host of The Co-Op, currently reviewer/news poster) has joined the game TODD VOTE (Master of the Top 5) has joined the game
Three, Two, One, Co-Op Go!
1. Metal Gear Solid 4 deserves to be nowhere near the top of a best anything list (unless you mean best coaster, frisbee, etc), since it's only a year old and it takes at least 5 months of that year to watch all the cutscenes.
JDL: I gotta say this game went to unfair lengths to piss me off. First I popped it in, watched Snake smoke for 30 minutes before I could play the game, sat through a half hour mini drama before I could do anything of relevance, tried to sneak around, fumbled with the lousy controls, got confused by the night vision until finally I gave up. I probably won't like the ending, so I'm fine with writing my own continuity in which Snake retires and opens up a bar with $5 pitchers from 7PM to close.
Sean: If you mean one of the best games of 2008 I would say yes. If you mean one of the best games of all-time or something I say no. Mainly because of what John said in the question, its too young still to measure the impact and greatness of the game compared to others in that category. I'm a big RPG person, so I don't think that yet touches the amount of cutscenes in a Xenosaga game or something. I enjoyed MGS4, and I played it without having played MGS2 or MGS3, and I still thought the story stood out. I think maybe in the future you can put it up there, but we should see how it stands the test time first.
Drew: I'll agree with this sentiment, not because the game is only one year old, that argument would earn me a kick in the 'nads as some may recall that I placed GTA IV on my Top Ten Favorite games, a decision that in retrospect is actually a little inaccurate. But back on to the subject, as a game, Metal Gear Solid 4 was fun. I enjoyed its new, slightly more action-oriented approach. However, the cutscenes took AGES as Kojima felt the need to explain every last thing to us in grueling detail. Its fine to explain some things, but you have to have faith in your audience that they can at least derive something on their own. And the story was a convoluted mess in MGS4, as it seemingly fell apart at the end, specifically the VERY END. I'm still not sure what the hell that was, even with several months to reflect on it.
Vote: Um... On one hand, I am not a fan of the stealth espionage action, but I understand Metal Gear is a quality game and a fan favorite. Best of lists are all opinion based as it is. Sure you can keep a tally and get a concensus best list, but someone is always going to have a varying opinion. If you like it, more power to you. But for me it wouldn't make my list.
2. Oh boy, we got a Starcraft II update, it MIGHT ship this year. Listen, no one cares about a second Starcraft, there's enough people playing the first one anyway.
JDL: This game.... is the worst game ever. I picked it up for twenty dollars so I could play it with this chick and I gotta admit I'm sorely disappointed, not because things went nowhere with the girl, but because there was too much micromanagement involved! I'd trade it back but I don't even think Play 'N Trade is gonna give me anything for this hunk of crap.
Oh, Starcraft II, right! Well, if it's more of the same, why would I be excited about it? Everyone else loves the frickin' thing, but me, let 'em have their tarted up expansion pack, I don't care.
Sean: I don't think its fair to say no one cares about Starcraft II or they wouldn't be making it. The fact that people are still playing the first one waiting for it to come out should tell anyone how popular Starcraft still is. I don't play PC games so I don't really care about Starcraft II but I know plenty of people that do. It should get plenty of sales when it releases and maybe help World of Warcraft carry the PC gamer load.
Drew: As much as I love Starcraft...I think I'd love Starcraft even more with the polished graphics that the second game is going to offer. But hear me out, this game darn well better come out this year. Especially if they are sticking to that trilogy crap. If I'm going to only get one campaign mode, then there is no excuse for it not to come out by the year's end. The game is practically a high-res version of Starcraft, so I can't imagine that they are spending time making changes to the gameplay or anything excusable like that.
Vote: Um. Okay sure. Never played Starcraft, so I honestly am not qualified to answer this question. To be honest, I've never played a game on PC at all, well unless you count flash games. But if there are that many people playing the first game, why not create a sequel. Fans deserve to be rewarded for loyalty once in a while.
3. Pretty soon $40 can get you Oblivion and Bioshock. Both games are touted as Games of The Year for 2006 and 2007 respectively, but you can EASILY think of two better Game Of The Year quality games for the 360 that could be sold for $40 (year irrelevant).
JDL: How about Fable 2 and the Orange Box? Matter of fact, where's the awards for the Orange Box? It has Portal and TF2, for Pete's sake! Dead Rising and Left 4 Dead would be a pretty sweet combo too if you ask me.
Sean: Well, it is always nice to have games for cheaper prices. I already have Bioshock and I bought that for 35 bucks. I did not like Oblivion at all, I just don't like games like Oblivion and Fable. I love RPG's and I love the ability to explore and do different things, however, I like following a set story and not making my own. If I had to pick two games, I'm gonna go with two games that I still need to buy and enjoy. Those being Halo 3 and Soul Calibur IV. I'm not the biggest fan of the HALO series but I need a game I can play with the 411 staffers and I have the other two games. I love the Soul Calibur series and you can make a case for it being the best fighting game series out there. I've missed getting to kick some ass fighting style. So maybe one of these days we could see these two "Game of the Year" worthy (at least in their genre's you have to say its true) titles for 20 bucks each.
Drew: Well, I know the comments section loves me, so I'll drop this little gem. I hate Oblivion. Fallout 3? Great game, even though the gameplay isn't my style I can appreciate its interesting story, incredible atmosphere, and the overall effort that went into making it a great experience. But Oblivion? Given, the gameplay is very similar to Fallout 3, but the story and environment reek of unoriginality. How many games have you played that take place in some happy fantasy land with elves, dwarves, magic, and swords? If I wanted to visit a mystical fantasy land, I'd watch Lord of the Rings. But then again, if I wanted to watch an overly long movie, I'd watch Metal Gear Solid 4 (bad-dum-tish).
Vote: If you read 411 Games Top 5, it's no secret that I am not a fan of RPGs. I haven't played Bioshock aside from the demo, so I will keep that one. As far as what to replace Oblivion with... thats a bit tougher to answer. I'm pretty good at keeping up with the games I really want for the most part. I don't necessarily buy them all, but I usually manage to play them. Wait, no... scratch that. Dead Rising. That is one game I rented when it was first released, and have always said I will buy it. So throw it in the pack, and I'm sold.
4. My Xbox has finally died on me. I qualify for free repair, but I need to find a box that isn't my 360 box, pay shipping and wait a month before I can go back to playing TF2. What the hell? Repairs should be timely, concise and consoles shouldn't break after a year's routine use.
JDL: I really wish Microsoft would get it together when it comes to system repair. Thanks for the free repair guys, but sending me on a scavenger hunt for a box that fits is NOT a fair trade off! I wouldn't mind paying $20-$30 for peace of mind, a box that fits and guaranteed repair.
Sean: I had mine die two weeks before E3, qualified for free repair, and they sent me a shipping label, and I just sent it to a UPS store and they did the rest. They shipped to a repair shop that is located an hour from where I live and I got it back exactly a week later. So, mine was as timely as they could make it in my estimation. Regardless of whether or not the "red ring of death" is getting closer to being solved, it should have never occurred in the first place. The fact that Microsoft put out a faulty system is a tragedy. To be honest, this whole warranty crap is stupid, there should be free repairs for a system that gets a "red-ring" due to normal wear and tear for as long as the 360 cycle is alive. Honestly, I want to know how many 360's have been bought to replace the 360 that got a "red-ring of death," I had to do it once. Trust me, I think the repair people can tell if its been dropped or there is other damage. So, why not care about your consumers a little, and give them a chance to enjoy their games and not E74 errors.
Drew: Speaking as someone who's 360 broke twice (and the second time, Microsoft did refuse to repair it for free), I will attest that my $300 console should not break after a year of mild usage. Most people just kind of brush it off as no big deal, just a month without a 360. I agree, I can go a month without a gaming console, no biggie. But that isn't my beef. This shouldn't be a problem, consoles should not break routinely. How come I can have a computer for several years and never have a problem, but a 360, which I used far less than a computer breaks because I look at it funny? My Wii, had it since launch, no problems, everything works great. Same goes for my PS3, though I can't say I've had it for a year quite yet (we'll see in August if it breaks), it still hasn't had any problems. Another thing, it really pisses me off that the boxes aren't being shipped out for repairs anymore. They give you a faulty console that breaks on a seemingly annual basis, so the least they could do is give you a little box.
Vote: Abso-f*ckin-lutely. Trust me my friend, I understand your frustration. I've lost count of how many Xbox 360's I've been through now. I know it is more than four, but less than eight. Somewhere in there I left my faith for an Xbox lasting longer than six months. I managed to have the in store warranty for most of the repairs, and I could just return it to Gamestop. But my last one I had to send to Microsoft for repairs. The repair was actually quicker than I expected. But the machine is a broken unit and it needs to be fixed once and for all.
5. It was recently discovered by a financial analyst that the PSP Go costs less to make, but will still be sold for $250. Meanwhile, $250 could get you an older model PSP with headphones, AV cables, the works, a game or two thrown in and lunch. You're definitely going to hang onto your current PSP or snatch an older one up for next to nothing when the Go comes out.
JDL: Not only am I hanging onto my PSP Slim, I'm getting an older model 1000 when the money comes in so I can get custom firmware and run Lion Editor, an FFT hacking tool. The Go can GO to jail for all I care.
Sean: No, I'm not. I wanted a PSP Go after I saw it at the E3 Sony press conference but the second they said its "$250 bucks" I said hell no. I really hope people don't go and buy this in droves because this teaches Sony nothing. The PS3 has a lot of people waiting for a price drop to buy it, including myself. I know that the PSP Go allows you to download all the games and it looks cool but that should not make it worth more than the regular PSP. The DS Lite and DSi are still significantly lower than the PSP Go, and I can buy me a Wii and an XBOX Arcade with a hard drive for that much too.
It may sell because some people will buy anything, but I think this ultimately a bad business move for Sony. They do know the economy is in bad shape right? There are many people wondering where their next check will come from. So yes, there are people looking for an escape but not if its a portable machine costing $250 dollars.
Drew: No I'm going to get rid of my PSP because, quite frankly, I hate the little device. But, for the sake of the question, I'd much rather just buy an original PSP at this point. Most of the good PSP games are pretty easy to find in stores, so downloading isn't the only way to go, and even then, you can still download games on to the old PSP. Plus play old games or buy ones from the store. Why would you pay extra for the same experience?
Vote: Nope, don't do gaming on the go. Well not entirely true, I do have a car trip ready Gamecube, but don't do the handhelds. It is ridiculous that you are paying that much for a machine that is virtually the same, and cheaper to manufacture to boot. Sony has faith in there machines, as they should. There is no doubt that they build a solid machine, but isn't the point of redesigns to make it viable to offer a cheaper product?
6. The latest Penny Arcades that weren't offshoots were phoned in, unfunny and are choking on their own Photoshop, Ctrl Alt Del is a mess, Zero Punctuation hasn't been good in a long time and Khaos Komix never gets updates. Webcomics suck.
JDL: I've been told good things about Daisy Owl, Dr. McNinja and others, but that's neither here nor there. Webcomics do suck right now. Penny Arcade is usually AWESOME, but they've been suckish and phoned in lately (see the Prototype strip). Also, what's up with the sudden shift in art quality? They used to remind me of Disney Adventures with their animation, but something's not right anymore.
Ctrl Alt Del is growing on me, even if the characters faces always look the same and they had a storyline about MISCARRYING. I can give them a Mulligan for the latter, believe it or not, but the writing and the art style (the two most important things about a comic!) just ain't my style. Still, I find them funny once in a while, even if that while is once a year.
ZP used to be so much better. WTF happened, Yahtzee?
Khaos (NOT SAFE FOR WORK) isn't really a gaming webcomic, but it is well drawn by an 18 year old British man who is really an 18 year old British woman. Give it a whirl and see if you like it, just don't expect any updates, since the dude's computer is broke and he's really lazy/occupied with cosplay when it isn't.
Perhaps Menage A 3 (ALSO NOT SAFE FOR WORK) is the only good comic out right now. If nothing else, the style of art is AWESOME. It's like Archie meets softcore porn and the writing is pretty decent.
Lastly, there's a little webcomic I help out with called Cavalcade Of Whimsy. It's in it's infancy stages (hence it being hosted on Deviant Art), but it's coming along nicely. It's written by me and drawn by my best friend, do us a favor and give that a whirl too.
So Webcomics: right now, they suck, but pretty soon they'll bounce back. Until then, here's a comic even our hard-to-please boss liked.
Sean: I haven't seen the new comics and wouldn't know how to judge them since I don't even read regular comics as it is. I'm just now getting into reading regular books again and that took me a while. I don't think you should kill it though because there is always a market for these things. I also think that these guys have a good track record, they will bounce back with some good stuff eventually.
Drew: I love comics, but I have to say, I wasn't a fan of the recent Penny Arcade off-shoots. Even though they were pretty well-done, I go to Penny Arcade for humor, so it just wasn't appealing to me. CAD is just a funny mess, its interesting to peek around on the site and see the main characters still having the same facial expression after all of these years. Lastly, Yahtzee, I love that guy! How could I not, he has similar gaming tastes to me. Pretentious, but occasionally dipping into the casual mainstream games that have the capacity for being pretty fun. And, actually, I think Yahtzee has gotten better lately, though I never particularly thought that he was in much of a slump.
Kojima made MGS4 for the fans. He's said it many times. MGS4 was made for people like me who are curious about the MGS universe and have an attachment to it. Don't diss the cut scenes because you don't know what's going on. Push start and skip them.
I'll repeat that again.
Push the start button and choose skip.
Problem solved.
I would totally accept this argument if 90% of the cut scenes weren't skipable, but since they are, I don't accept that argument. Like I said before Kojima loves the MGS universe and knows other people love it to, and this was the only possible way to wrap the story up. MGS4 was service to the fans, Kojima didn't need to appeal to the general public, as they were going to buy it anyway *and did*.
Now if only he would do the same for Snatcher...
Posted By: The Salms (Registered) on June 24, 2009 at 12:49 AM
Normally, I try not to bash the writers.
But to be 100% honest, and I'm not saying I should/could even be writing for a gaming site, but you have to be the worst to ask these kind of questions too. You really, really do.
1) This question, you guys did a good job of actually ANSWERING the question. Good job, it was well written. But things got worse.
2)Half of you, hasn't played Starcraft. I'm not an "Avid" gamer. I'm not "Hardcore." But how the hell do you write for a GAMING site if you haven't played Starcraft?
An RTS, that well, other than Red Alert and Warcraft, you could argue PUT RTS ON THE MAP. If you don't like em, fine. Don't really care. But if you aren't ready to answer simple questions about games. Then you have no right, to write for a gaming site. Period. Now don't get me wrong. I don't mean it's bad to not be able to answer some question like.
"How is (Crazy fucking Japanese RPG name) >!?!?!?1111?"
That's ridiculous. But when you can't even answer a simple fucking question like that. Just don't do this for a living.
Like. When it comes down to it.
Half of the time (The Red Ring/MGS/And JDL's Webcomic part, are exceptions. Well written.)
But seriously guys!
You HAVE to be able to answer a question about a 2007 Game of the year!
If you played it, and didn't like it.
then fine. You can use that arugment. You didn't like it. The gameplay was too rattly. Blah blah blah.
Awesome.
But if you just flat out say.
I didn't play it?
What questions are you expecting to field while writing!?
Seriously! If you EXPECT to actually write a decent article, you need to play these games! You do!
Posted By: Mike (Guest) on June 24, 2009 at 01:50 AM
Mike, I've actually played all of those games, it sounds like your beef is with Vote.
Also man, no offense, but I lost you halfway into your rant, a lot of it doesn't make sense.
Glad you liked the comic though. That's a cartoon version of myself and my father although IRL I'm a little bit more paunchy.
Yes, I really gave him Shamwow and a copy of the comic for Father's Day and he loved it.
For those wondering, Dad is playing Madden '09 in the strip. Enjoy!
Posted By: John De Large (Registered) on June 24, 2009 at 03:37 AM
Quote
2)Half of you, hasn't played Starcraft. I'm not an "Avid" gamer. I'm not "Hardcore." But how the hell do you write for a GAMING site if you haven't played Starcraft?
An RTS, that well, other than Red Alert and Warcraft, you could argue PUT RTS ON THE MAP. If you don't like em, fine. Don't really care. But if you aren't ready to answer simple questions about games. Then you have no right, to write for a gaming site. Period. Now don't get me wrong. I don't mean it's bad to not be able to answer some question like.
"How is (Crazy fucking Japanese RPG name) >!?!?!?1111?"
That's ridiculous. But when you can't even answer a simple fucking question like that. Just don't do this for a living.
Like. When it comes down to it.
Half of the time (The Red Ring/MGS/And JDL's Webcomic part, are exceptions. Well written.)
But seriously guys!
You HAVE to be able to answer a question about a 2007 Game of the year!
If you played it, and didn't like it.
then fine. You can use that arugment. You didn't like it. The gameplay was too rattly. Blah blah blah.
Awesome.
But if you just flat out say.
I didn't play it?
What questions are you expecting to field while writing!?
Seriously! If you EXPECT to actually write a decent article, you need to play these games! You do!
End Quote
On a note I came in here because I saw Starcraft 2 in the title expecting something half ass intelligent and wasted a few minutes of my life on trash because the review is one not accurate and two full of garbage. Even if you do not play the damn game do some research before spouting anymore garbage for any game for that sake.
Posted By: Daniel (Guest) on June 24, 2009 at 08:06 AM
Look Mike, if I don't like a type of game, like an RPG, or an RTS game, I'm not going to play it. It's as simple as that. How many games do you play that you don't want to play, or don't enjoy? I could have lied and typed up some phony shit about how awesome Starcraft is, but I didn't. I was honest, and admitted that I do not do PC gaming.
I also feel that I should point out that none of us do this website for a living, well outside of the big guns, maybe. We do it because we enjoy video games, and we enjoy writing. You show me the rule that says I have to play Starcraft to be able to write for a gaming website.
@ Daniel, this column was not a review of Starcraft. It featured one question about Starcraft. Get it right. And how exactly would me doing research on Starcraft qualify me to answer a question about whether or not a sequel is deserved? Get over it kids, not everyone has played Starcraft. Thats just the way it is.
Oh and JDL, thanks for throwing me to the wolves there. LOL
Posted By: Todd Vote (Guest) on June 24, 2009 at 10:14 AM
What the heck, lol, I'm usually the one taking heat in the comments. Darn it Vote, stealing my thunder!
Posted By: Drew Robbins (Registered) on June 24, 2009 at 11:22 AM
You know John, please do not take this the wrong way but this column was pretty weak. The questions for the most part came off as "Wah! I do not like this! Wah!", while I generally enjoy the comic, questions like these really ruin it for me. I think you should leave the whole personal bias thing out of them, and save it for your answer, as it makes it seem less like you are trying to force your guests into sharing your point of view.
Posted By: Travis (Guest) on June 24, 2009 at 11:27 AM
i understand your point Vote but in fairness you answered that you didn't play the game/console on questions 1-2-3-5 out of 6. You eliminated portable console games, PC games, RPGs and stealth games, thats a fairly large percentage of the games out there.
Mike's point is valid that if you aren't qualified to answer questions on most games (and this is no fault of yours) then you probably shouldn't be writing for a column that asks you questions about random game types.
You like contributing to 411 games and thats awsome do your thing man, but you should stick to writing columns of your own design. I'm sorry man but you just aren't the best canidate for the 4 Player Co-Op.
Posted By: stronelis (Guest) on June 24, 2009 at 11:57 AM
@ Stronelis: on question 1: I never said I didn't play MGS, I said I wasn't a fan of the genre. I have in fact played it, and I've tried no less than 3 different other MGS titles, I've just never been able to get into them. But again, playing a game doesn't mean it has to make my best of list, or that I have to enjoy that particular game to have an opinion on it.
On Question 3: It was about a packaged set of games. It was asked if that was enough for me to buy it. If I had already played either game, why would I need to buy the set? JDL then asked which game i would replace and I answered honestly. I don't like RPG's and want to replace one of the games with a game I would enjoy better, just like the question asked. How that makes me not qualified to answer that question is beyond me, can you explain please?
Lastly, on question 5: Again, the question wasn't about whether or not I had ever played a PSP, which I have. the question was whether or not I would be picking up the PSP Go, or buying the older unit. So again, whether or not I play a PSP is irrelevant for that particular question.
Mike's points were void the second he said it would be okay if I couldn't answer a question about a different game, don't ya think? Why would it be okay for me not to know about (insert JRPG here) but not okay for me not to have played Starcraft? That, to me, sounds like a bit of fanboy anger beign directed at someone who hasn't played Mike's favorite game.
So at best, I was not qualified to answer one question. the Starcraft question, and even that one was nothing to do with playing the actual game, it was whether or not a sequel was necessary.
For the record, we do not know what the questions are before agreeing to appear in 4PC, or any other column of that nature. We agree to be in, and then a week or so later, we get the questions that will be featured in the column we are appearing in.
Posted By: Todd Vote (Registered) on June 24, 2009 at 01:32 PM
Bunch of useless consolefags around here.
Posted By: Guest#0177 (Guest) on June 24, 2009 at 02:06 PM
Todd, i am no fanboy of any of these games. I am not defending Mike and his pro starcraft rant. I have played starcraft and enjoyed it but that is besides the point.
I also am well aware that you do not know the questions before hand, as I have done ForF for politics on multiple occasions.
I think you are missing the point i was making. While you may be qualified to answer the questions, your answers left a lot to be desired. And i am not saying that because your answer was negative. Positive and negative responses are the whole point to the column.
Your answers to the 4 questions i'm rferring to just seemed weak, most likely because you don't care for the subject of the questions. I guess I would just like to see someone answering the questions who is more into it and answers with more than "I don't care for them but others do so heres my throwaway response".
However to your credit after looking over the questions again, the problem may lay more in the questions than anything else. I will hold back any additional critiques until I can read some more of your work. Are there any past 4 Player Co-Ops of yours that i could read?
Posted By: stronelis (Guest) on June 24, 2009 at 03:18 PM
Skipping the cutscenes in MGS4 can get on a persons nerves to: start, skip another cutscene, start, skip wtf another cutscene, etc
Posted By: Guest#9764 (Guest) on June 24, 2009 at 03:27 PM
Stronelis, maybe you are right, I wasn't really feeling the questions this time around, and I guess it came through a bit. There are several 4PC's and 3PC's I have participated in before, feel free to check them out in the archives, and tear me apart on those too. HAHA!
Also, I wasn't referring to you as a fanboy, I apologize if it came off that way. I meant to say that Mike's rant seemed a bit fanboyish. Your responses were not really attacking me, so no worries or grudges held here. As always, thanks for reading and commenting. I will try to show more enthusiasm if I am ever welcomed back into the 4PC.
Posted By: Todd Vote (Registered) on June 24, 2009 at 04:10 PM
Look Mike, if I don't like a type of game, like an RPG, or an RTS game, I'm not going to play it. It's as simple as that. How many games do you play that you don't want to play, or don't enjoy? I could have lied and typed up some phony shit about how awesome Starcraft is, but I didn't. I was honest, and admitted that I do not do PC gaming.
I also feel that I should point out that none of us do this website for a living, well outside of the big guns, maybe. We do it because we enjoy video games, and we enjoy writing. You show me the rule that says I have to play Starcraft to be able to write for a gaming website.
@ Daniel, this column was not a review of Starcraft. It featured one question about Starcraft. Get it right. And how exactly would me doing research on Starcraft qualify me to answer a question about whether or not a sequel is deserved? Get over it kids, not everyone has played Starcraft. Thats just the way it is.
Oh and JDL, thanks for throwing me to the wolves there. LOL
Posted By: Todd Vote (Guest) on June 24, 2009 at 10:14 AM
No offense, but why is there a question about Starcraft 2 in this column if only a couple of you have even the slightest interest in PC gaming at all. In fact why bother posting up a PC question where one or more of the participants couldnt give a rats ass about PC gaming.
Posted By: Guest#9596 (Guest) on June 24, 2009 at 06:26 PM
The question had nothing to do with the gameplay of StarCraft, so whether a person played it or not doesn't really seem relevant.
That said, the question seemed kind of weak. Who cares about StarCraft 2? The amount of attention it's receiving seems to have answered that before it was even asked.
Posted By: Rod Oracheski (Registered) on June 25, 2009 at 04:56 PM
