411 Games Fact or Fiction 11.09.09 : EA MMA, Smackdown vs. RAW, Starcraft II, DS Follow Up, More
Posted by Ramon Aranda on 11.09.2009
Should the WWE Smackdown vs. RAW controls be revamped? Will EA MMA be as good as UFC Undisputed? Will Starcraft II be the most played game online when it releases? What would you prefer from a DS follow up? 411’s Chris Lansdell and Ty Huston debate these topics and more in the latest edition of 411 Fact or Fiction: Games!
What's up everyone? It's time for another edition of Fact or Fiction: Games and joining us this week is Chris Lansdell and the returning Ty Huston. Never having met in a FoF before, they finally go head to head so let's see what they've go to say.
So let's get to this!
1: The PS3 will have a banner year in 2010 in terms of great games and solid sales.
Chris Lansdell: FACT -The signs are all there: lower price, strong titles on the way, free online and perhaps most important, no awesome 360 exclusives on the horizon. As long as they don't blow their sales wad on Black Friday, I expect to see a strong start in the January sales and then a solid remainder of the year.
Ty Huston: FACT - I agree with Lansdell that they have a solid combination going right now. Most notably is the reduced price for the console itself. I myself still do not own a PS3 based on the fact that the console has been vastly overpriced for far too long. Having some excellent titles on the way will help improve sales as well, but the PS3 already has some excellent games in its library and the lowered console price will reflect new purchases for those like myself who have waited it out until Sony finally succumbed to the realization that they simply made an overpriced console.
Score: 1 for 1
2. EA MMA will prove to be as good of game as UFC Undisputed 2009.
Chris Lansdell: FACT - I wrote a Game Improvement column on how to make UFC better, and if EA have taken any of those lessons to heart they will do well. That said, they're starting at a disadvantage as they have none of the UFC fighters to use, severely damaging name value. This means they'll need to sell the game on the strength of a few lesser lights, Fedor and the strength of the game itself.
Ty Huston: FICTION - I'm very, very torn on this issue. UFC Undisputed 2009 was a great game for the franchise in comparison to previous titles in the MMA genre. However, I can't say that EA has always put out quality games in the "fighting" genre. The games I will specifically refer to are WCW Mayhem and WCW Backstage Assault. While it is arguable that they are "wrestling" games instead of an MMA game, many of the same dynamics shine through. EA can make stellar games when the right studio is behind it. I say fiction because it is quite rare for a developer to make a great game based on an established property on the first try.
Score: 1 for 2 -
3. THQ should simplify the WWE SvR control scheme to be more like the N64 games.
Chris Lansdell: FICTION - I have no problem with the controls, honestly. The N64 games weren't awesome because of the control system, but at any rate that system would be cumbersome on any other controller. Even 3rd party N64 controllers weren't as good. If they keep trying to reinvent the wheel, eventually they'll get a square one.
Ty Huston: FACT - I say this for a handful of reasons and that is not simply because I feel that No Mercy was the greatest wrestling game ever made. First, the largest gripe I've had with the post-No Mercy games is that the controls are too arcade-like and not attuned to a wrestling atmosphere. Specifically, multiple opponent matches (tag team, triple threat, Royal Rumble, etc.) in the SvR franchise have always had one specific flaw - changing the targeting from one opponent to the next. No Mercy had this down to a science where you simply hit a button and cycled through your available opponents and with the SvR series they've gone to this system of selecting the closest person to you. It can be tiresome and aggravating. Next, the finishers in No Mercy were simple to pull off and easily executed. Finishers in SvR typically require you to follow a specific pattern - location, energy, grapple type, etc. These played in to No Mercy as well, but not to the degree of difficulty that is required in SvR. Finally, the schematics for moves in configuration to the control pad in No Mercy vs SvR is vastly different. It still amazes me how you could fluidly kick the crap out of your opponent in No Mercy with ease where you have such a more difficult time having a classic match with an opponent in SvR. While I could write an entire column on the differences between these games (hmmm ... not a bad idea, actually), I simply find that the entire way that No Mercy was programmed over SvR made it a much more enjoyable game overall. One of the brightest points was the control scheme.
Score: 1 for 3
SWITCH
4: After its release, Starcraft II will be the most played game online...worldwide.
Ty Huston: FACT - Guaranteed, actually. The original Starcraft is still cherished by fans around the globe and considered one of the greatest RTS games ever - let alone for its online play. I soured out of the Starcraft phase back around the turn of the decade, having played it immensely during high school, but I still see its value and recognize it for the amazing game it is.
Chris Lansdell: FACT - Absolutely. Blizzard can seemingly do no wrong with their online games. Quick, name their last dud. Diablo II, Starcraft, WOW...if they make it, people play it. When I used to play Diablo II there was still a strong following for Starcraft, so the sequel is almost a license to print money. And frankly if they buy it, they'll play it.
Score: 2 for 4
5. You'd rather have a follow up to the DS that has Gamecube graphics and no touch screen controls.
Ty Huston: FACT - Surprisingly, yes. I don't really care for the touch screen controls on the DS. In fact, I'm not even that huge on the motion control with the Wii. Under certain circumstances (such as any game made by Nintendo for the Wii) I think it is implemented excellently. Third party developers, however, have made some terrible games with some horrid use of the motion control. Same thing goes for the touch screen on the DS.
Chris Lansdell: FICTION - Well, at least in part. I'd love a handheld with the graphics of a Gamecube, but touchscreen is kinda the DS' gimmick. Although a lot of hardcore gamers might not like it, we have to accept that it's not aimed at us. The DS is a gateway system. It brings kids and otherwise non-gamers to the hobby, much like the Wii. By getting rid of the casual appeal of the touchscreen, you lose that aspect. Bad thing, BAD.
Score: 2 for 5 -
6. You're looking forward to playing Left 4 Dead 2.
Ty Huston: FACT - If not for the smallest reason that I'll get a kick out of watching my 11 year old daughter yell at zombies as she and I blow the hell out of them. A classic every time. Left 4 Dead was a great game, although I felt the story was rather lacking and enemies were repetitive. However, the gameplay and online were fantastic and a lot of fun.
Chris Lansdell: FACT - I didn't play the first one because I hate the idiots that inhabit Xbox Live. However I have a group of friends that will be buying this and can therefore avoid the great unwashed and play only with people with braaaaaaaaaanez. Killin zombies in groups sounds like something I could get used to.
Final Score: 3 for 6
Now it's your turn to give us your thoughts. Fact or Fiction? Let us know!
If No Mercy came out today, EXACTLY as-is, it would fail epically.
Fire Pro Returns showed us that nostalgia does not equal to purchases.
Posted By: J. Alexander Mitchell (Registered) on November 08, 2009 at 11:40 PM
I don't know how anyone could be looking forward to playing Left 4 Dead version 1.01...
Posted By: Dave M (Guest) on November 08, 2009 at 11:54 PM
1. Too Close to call, as the Wii will be getting a really big year with games like Super Mario Galaxy 2, Metroid: Other M, Tatsunoko vs. Capcom, Monster Hunter Tri, Red Steel 2, and many more. PS3 will be having a big year as well, with The Last Guardian, God of War 3, and a lot more. I see both of them going head to head for Console of the year. The 360 I see it having a slow year, but for me, there is only 1 non Multiplatform game I want on it, and that's Alan Wake. Halo Reach I have no interest in whatsoever, I'm not into Splinter Cell, and I'm not sure if Mass Effect 2 will be Exclusive or not.
2. Don't care since I don't play MMA Games.
3. Fiction: But only because I want the Gameplay from the N64 games, not the Control Scheme.
4. Not much of a Starcraft guy, so I'll skip this one.
5. Fiction on the No Touch Screen Controls part, but Fact on the Gamecube Graphics. The DS is fine as it is though.
6. Fact, but it's not the only game I am looking forward to. Come on New Super Mario Bros. Wii and Assassin's Creed 2!!!
Posted By: PJ (Guest) on November 08, 2009 at 11:56 PM
I'll only comment on No Mercy vs. SvR2010.
If No Mercy came out today, EXACTLY as-is, it would fail epically.
Fire Pro Returns showed us that nostalgia does not equal to purchases.
Posted By: J. Alexander Mitchell (Registered) on November 08, 2009 at 11:40 PM
Firepro didn't have the WWE license. If you had no Mercy's control scheme with all the bells and whistles of SVR it would sell very well.
Posted By: Justin (Guest) on November 08, 2009 at 11:58 PM
"they're starting at a disadvantage as they have none of the UFC fighters to use" hahaha what... What about Randy "Captain America" Couture which most likely I'll be buying just cause hes in it its a sham he cant be in both games I know people who didnt buy UFC cause he was left out.
Posted By: ya broke homie (Guest) on November 09, 2009 at 12:48 AM
They don't need to change the controls of SmackDown vs Raw. It sells to millions of people. Most of these people want to play the game, not spend hours learning to play it. They don't try to appeal to a couple of hundred nerds.
Posted By: Guest#6775 (Guest) on November 09, 2009 at 12:58 AM
Another thing that annoys me about the SvR series compared to No Mercy are the moves and making movelists.
In SvR:
1) Many of the moves look really choppy in animation, namely the flying moves.
2) Many moves, fan favorites at that, have been taken out over the past few years altogether or taken out in one form, yet present in another (ex. the Phoenix Splash is only a springboard move as opposed to its original top turnbuckle version).
3) Move damage has no sense of scale. You can put known finishers like the Killswitch or the Emerald Frosion as regular moves and have a finisher as an arm drag, which wouldn't make sense even in the world of pro wrestling.
4) There are a ton of regular moves that actually are finishers that CANNOT be selected as finishers. Two of the most glaring would be Jun Akiyama's Wrist Clutch Exploder (T-Bone Suplex 1) and CIMA's Schwein (Air Raid Siren).
NM is the exact opposite of all of above.
Posted By: bluedragonx (Guest) on November 09, 2009 at 01:00 AM
Fire Pro is a very HARD game to learn for most people. No Mercy wasn't.
Although Fire Pro is vastly better, EVERYONE wants wrestling games like the N64 ones.
The DS really isn't gimmicky. The stylus screen provides a ton of games with helpful stuff like maps, add ons, backpacks, etc that are easy to access. I'd love to see the touch screen intergrated onto the controllers of the next Nintendo console for this reason alone.
Posted By: Jake G (Registered) on November 09, 2009 at 01:26 AM
i love fire pro, don't hate on that game. It's a better wrestling game (WRESTLING wise) than anything else out there
Posted By: rb (Guest) on November 09, 2009 at 03:45 AM
Maybe, just maybe, if we are lucky the TNA franchise will land in the hands of Syn Sophia (formerly Aki) and the No Mercy engine will be improved and expanded on.
Posted By: Guest#2434 (Guest) on November 09, 2009 at 04:50 AM
no mercy was a good game, dont get me wrong. i remember tho it had its times where it pissed me off. like the peoples elbow and the worm for example. i hated having to run and taunt myself.
Posted By: shaydee (Guest) on November 09, 2009 at 05:26 AM
I thought Fire Pro Returns sold pretty well?
Id kill for Fire pro on PSP or DS though. I STILL play the gba one pretty consistently.
Posted By: AG Awesome (Guest) on November 09, 2009 at 06:25 AM
The problem since the beggining for the Smackdown franchise has been the core engine of the game.
Anytime you slam someone they bounce around the ring like they are made of rubber, couple that with insane amount of glitches, poor AI and you have a disaster of a series.
What made the series popular was that it had other gimmicks to rely on, like plenty of matchtypes you couldnt find in other wrestling games, a story mode that was a bit longer than your average "get the belt, become champ" mode in other games.
Wrestling gamers arent swayed anymore that they can play TLC or a Ladder match, now they actually miss the core, great gameplay you had in No Mercy and other AKI games.
Posted By: Nightz (Guest) on November 09, 2009 at 06:51 AM
Huston - have you heard of a thing calle dthe options menu? A thing that lets you choose how you want to select targets (auto or manual)?
And as for finishers being hard to do - thats the point of them. They are finishers - you're supposed to spend all match struggling to hit one, and when you manage to hit one, victory is your reward.
Posted By: Quimby (Guest) on November 09, 2009 at 07:00 AM
Actually, in the newest iteration of Smackdown vs Raw, they did tweek the auto-aim feature. You can now adjust it so it is possible to cycle through opponents by tapping a button. Interestingly enough, I actually prefer the auto-aiming because I've grown so used to it that I'd often forget to tap the button to aim at somebody else and it usually resulted in me getting beat down for it.
Posted By: Ben (Guest) on November 09, 2009 at 07:42 AM
A simplified control scheme for SvR2010 would be nice. A lot of the current stuff works fine in my opinion, but selective targeting on manual simply doesn't work as it should. I don't have a problem with the finishers as mentioned above, though I did prefer the unlimited finishers within a time frame system over either having 1 or 3. That's just me though.
The game also seems to have broken AI in some Triple Threat matches and the like. You can often give a finisher to one opponent, pin the other, and have your pin broken by the first guy since your finisher kept him down for less than 3 seconds. Ladder matches have the same feel, there is no way you can win one following a single epic event. You require a good 60 seconds to dislodge the briefcase which means the match either drags on...or you let the opponent do most of the work for you. In either case, it takes away from the gaming experience and could use work. Personally I would effect the time it takes to bring down the briefcase based on the difference of momentum meters between you and your opponents. If they are out and you're near full, it should only take about 3 seconds to pull off the case.
Posted By: Roger (Guest) on November 09, 2009 at 08:58 AM
They did a similar control scheme to No Mercy in their Gamecube series, Wrestlemania 18/19 and Day of Reckoning 1 & 2. Both in my opinion played better than the entire SvR series. I would gladly welcome those controls & similar gameplay mixed with all of the features of SvR 2010. That being, said SvR 2010 is extremely good & you should all pick it up today if you haven't already. It's the best Smackdown game they've made since HCTP. Plus downloading other peoples storys (or making your own) will add replay.
For the AKI type gameplay and controls, I can only hope that whoever TNA gets to finish iMPACT2...gets ahold of them or Spike (King of Colosseum/FirePro)
Also, that Mexican AAA game is suppose to come out next month or in January & so far LOOKS pretty good. There's a new trailer out. I believe the developers of the first TNA iMPACT are making it but it looks to have a ton more moves. The game is supposed to be released in the US too, so I would assume the menu's will have an english or spanish option
Posted By: Byzdalmyt (Guest) on November 09, 2009 at 09:39 AM
I don't understand how anyone could prefer the No Mercy control scheme over the SvR control scheme. SvR's control scheme is a lot more fluid and hitting finishers is much more realistic in SvR than it is in No Mercy.
In No Mercy, you have to strong grapple just to hit a finisher and they can only be performed while standing up and facing your opponent. So finishers from the top rope, ground or back were pretty much null and void. Sure, you could still pull off those moves but they werent labeled as finishers and thusly wouldnt pack as much impact. I remember one No Mercy game where I was playing with The Rock and wanted to beat my friend with The People's Elbow and had to hit it about 6 times before my friend finally couldnt kick out of it anymore. That's nuts!
In SvR, you can pull off a finisher from virtually anywhere. And one of the best (and most realistic) parts is when one of your opponents tries to hit you with a move, you can counter it and then hit your finisher. That's a lot more realistic than having to strong grapple someone and then hit your finisher.
Also, you can switch the SvR targeting settings to "Manual" and you'll be able to target on specific people just like in No Mercy.
Posted By: SvR > No Mercy (Guest) on November 09, 2009 at 09:49 AM
The SVR games shouldn't come out every year. It is just the same game every year.
NO Mercy is the best wrestling game ever made. Fire Pro Wrestling returns is a close 2nd.
Posted By: FMX (Guest) on November 09, 2009 at 10:15 AM
Wow...you guys taking wrestling games too seriously.
You want great controls and fluid movements, play Fire Pro...you want to play as your favorite superstar or create one and have a pretty kick ass story mode, SvR. Choice is yours.
Posted By: Ramsey (Guest) on November 09, 2009 at 10:21 AM
"Huston - have you heard of a thing calle dthe options menu? A thing that lets you choose how you want to select targets (auto or manual)?
And as for finishers being hard to do - thats the point of them. They are finishers - you're supposed to spend all match struggling to hit one, and when you manage to hit one, victory is your reward."
First of all, yes I know you can change that setting in the options menu. However, I find that the auto targeting is so worthless I wonder why it is even included and the default for that matter.
Secondly, I'm not even going to try and explain the psychology of professional wrestling and how in a videogame about a choreographed sport that it should be simple to hit a finisher yet the build up and work to hit the finisher is what is important.
Posted By: Ty Huston (Registered) on November 09, 2009 at 10:44 AM
I loved No Mercy and the SvR series, even though I haven't bought SvR since 06, with the best one being SD! "Here Comes the Pain". I also bought Fire Pro Returns...and it sucked HARD!!!! I took that back w/n three days. I loved the idea of playin' with likes of the NWO and stuff, but the execution of that game is the WORST. Plenty of depth/customization, horrible in every other aspect.
Posted By: SS87 (Guest) on November 09, 2009 at 02:47 PM
1.: Faction. PS3 sales will be helped by the price point and a budding track record on exclusive content, but games will def. be a banner year.
2:Fiction It doesn't look as smooth but the engine is what really counts in a fighting game. If the game is littered with spam glitches and such like UFC (which is still a great game) it will suck cause it can't compare in other areas (fighters, graphics) to the masses. Super eager for a demo though and I need to read up on any fighter/career/league stuff they made to be 100%.
3.: 1 million times Fact. There are a few other things that could use revamping (as of 2007 they still had nut sucking collision detection and was way too glitchy for a game which is supposed to be be the standard bearer for a genre... in N.A. anyway, the Japs have way better wrestling games typically). The DoR engine (more NM based) is still much better than SvR.
4: Fact. No brainer.
5: meh.
6: Played the demo with someone who HATED the first one. He preordered it today. It is that good. The levels are more non-linear, new weapons (frying pan!!!!), the melee is SICK, new monsters are cool and add to the already high variation, it looks good non-HD, and more modes from launch. Will be a contender for my GOTY what with MW2's supposed epically tiny story mode.
Posted By: elgrannoche (Guest) on November 09, 2009 at 02:54 PM
"I also bought Fire Pro Returns...and it sucked HARD!!!!" Posted By: SS87 (Guest)
Agreed. A learning curve of longer than 20 minutes, deep meaningful logic/AI, and a game mechanic to encourage selling sure do suck.
Firepro needs the ability to Tiger Driver someone within the first 30 seconds of a match and make an entire moveset out of finisher caliber moves like SvR.
If FPR would've had a storyline mode like many others in the franchise it would've done mad numbers in the States. (of course, it was a port so that wouldn't have ever happened but *if* it did).
Posted By: Guest#2652 (Guest) on November 09, 2009 at 04:05 PM
"
Wow...you guys taking wrestling games too seriously.
You want great controls and fluid movements, play Fire Pro...you want to play as your favorite superstar or create one and have a pretty kick ass story mode, SvR. Choice is yours.
Posted By: Ramsey (Guest) on November 09, 2009 at 10:21 AM"
As much fun as Fire Pro Returns is, it took me about 2 months to master the control scheme. That by far has the worst control scheme if ur a first time player. And striking moves never connect ever not ever. Why do i have to be a certain distance to hit a striking move. I should be able to hit the move so long as i'm close enough to my opponent. If I'm Ric Flair, i wanna be able to connect on my chops with 100 percent accuracy. Fire Pro's control scheme is garbage
Posted By: bighustle (Guest) on November 09, 2009 at 04:32 PM
First, the EA MMA game won't be as good as the UFC one because you won't be able to beat Chuck Liddel's ass in it. Beating up Chuck Liddel is the sole reason I want the UFC game (as I've spent hours doing just that on the demo).
And then to this:
"I'll only comment on No Mercy vs. SvR2010.
If No Mercy came out today, EXACTLY as-is, it would fail epically.
Fire Pro Returns showed us that nostalgia does not equal to purchases."
Apples and Oranges, friend. Perhaps you missed out on Def Jam Vendetta and Def Jam Fight For NY, a few years ago. Both those games sold very well, and used the AKI engine.
Now put the WWE name and marketing machine behind the game, and it'd sell like hot cakes. Fire Pro came ou on a system that was nearly dead in the US, had no name value, and very little marketing push. Basically, it was sold here in the states for those in the know.
Now I'm not going to sell it would blow the sales of SvR out of the water, but I'd buy the game which is something I can't say about any WWE game since the Gamecube came out.
Posted By: G-Walla (Guest) on November 09, 2009 at 05:35 PM
1. The PS3 will have a better year because of the price drop. This is first time I'm considering buying one
2. Hopefully EA can produce a better playable game than UFC 2009 not being able to submit the AI in the 1st round until you kick the legs for 2 rnds sucks. Maybe they could take a cue from the old PS2 Pride FC fighting engine, which was the best MMA sim I've played ever.
Posted By: BustHerUp (Guest) on November 09, 2009 at 07:24 PM
EA has plenty of money. Unless it's written in thier contract that they can not be in any other video game, EA should simply start writing checks, If you offer big stars fifty to a hundred grand maybe more to be in MMA are they going to say no? If you offer Lesnar a big check and he accepts do you really think Dana White is going to fire him? Besides thier are plenty of great fighters all around the world to fill out a roster. Also EA has a chance to sign legends to the game, I'd love to fight as Bas Ruttan, The Shamrocks, any Gracie, Don Frye. Let's not forget the huge roster of K-1 stars that fight MMA. Semy Shilitt anyone? What EA needs to do is just provide profile video of the guys to help promote the fighters they can get. What EA really needs to do is work on the create-a-fighter aspect, because that's a huge weakness in UFC. Also they need to support it online as well. Hold tournaments, give away exclusive gear like is done in Halo. MMA is popular enough right now that a great game, with good support will sell.
P.S. Dear EA.
Call up Sony, use the storage power of the Blu Ray disk and get some real exclusive content. Promoting Dream and Sengouku, K-1 and former Pride fighters will help the game sell huge in Japan. As well with Die Hard fans around the world.
Posted By: Guest (Guest) on November 09, 2009 at 09:21 PM
Chris Lansdell: FACT -The signs are all there: lower price, strong titles on the way, free online and perhaps most important, no awesome 360 exclusives on the horizon. As long as they don't blow their sales wad on Black Friday, I expect to see a strong start in the January sales and then a solid remainder of the year. 
Chris Lansdell: FICTION - I have no problem with the controls, honestly. The N64 games weren't awesome because of the control system, but at any rate that system would be cumbersome on any other controller. Even 3rd party N64 controllers weren't as good. If they keep trying to reinvent the wheel, eventually they'll get a square one. 
Ty Huston: FACT - Guaranteed, actually. The original Starcraft is still cherished by fans around the globe and considered one of the greatest RTS games ever - let alone for its online play. I soured out of the Starcraft phase back around the turn of the decade, having played it immensely during high school, but I still see its value and recognize it for the amazing game it is.
Ty Huston: FACT - If not for the smallest reason that I'll get a kick out of watching my 11 year old daughter yell at zombies as she and I blow the hell out of them. A classic every time. Left 4 Dead was a great game, although I felt the story was rather lacking and enemies were repetitive. However, the gameplay and online were fantastic and a lot of fun.
