411 Movies Interview: Bobby Seale and Paul Krassner of Chicago 10

Posted by Tony Farinella on 08.28.2008

411's Tony Farinella sits down with Bobby Seale and Paul Krassner of Chicago 10 for an exclusive interview!

Bobby Seale is an American civil rights activist, who along with Dr. Huey P. Newton, co-founded the Black Panther Party For Self Defense on October 15, 1966. Paul Krassner was the founder, editor and a frequent contributor to the freethought magazine The Realist, first published in 1958. Recently, I had the pleasure of interviewing both of them over the telephone, and we talked about Chicago 10, which is currently out on DVD. I hope you enjoy my interview with Bobby Seale and Paul Krassner.


TONY: When you first heard about this idea, what were your first impressions?

Bobby Seale: Well, let me answer that first. I didn't even hear about the film until it was done. (laughs) The film was over with. Go ahead, Paul.

Paul Krassner: Oh, yeah, you're my opening act, Bobby. (laughs) I had gotten a letter from Graydon Carter, the editor of Vanity Fair, telling me how much he knew my work and that he was gonna be involved in co-producing this documentary about the protests in Chicago in 1968 and the trial that followed. And, at that time, it was gonna be called Chicago 7.

And I wrote back to him saying, "You must call it Chicago 8. They're ignoring Bobby Seale's presence in there." Which, as Bobby says objectively, was a historic thing in America. And then I gave him names of videomakers and photographers, and I suggested an actor to play Abbie Hoffman: Paul Provenza, who's a stand-up comedian and he also directed the movie The Aristocrats and played Abbie in the stage version of the trail.

Later they decided to have animated reenactments instead of actors, but he passed on all my information to Brett Morgan, and Brett called me and assigned me to write four of the animated reenactment scenes, so that was my connection.

TONY: Bobby, when did you finally see the film, and what were your thoughts on the finished product?

Bobby Seale: Well, somebody said Chicago 10, and I said, "What's that?" Because the real thing I know is Chicago 8 or Chicago 7, ya know? And they said, "Well it's a film about the Chicago conspiracy." I said, "It is? I don't understand."

And then it dawned on me, and I said, "Oh, I see what they mean." In the end, the two lawyers were also put in jail. So 8, 9, 10, and that's really what happened there. They said it was animated, and I said, "Wow, animated? I'll have to see it at some point." But it took a while before I would see it.

Last February, a private showing down in Hollywood there somewhere, and I went to see that film, and I said, "Well, that's good enough to the extent that youth and other people have to see this film. This is an important piece of human involvement history." But I knew when I looked at that film that these guys should have contacted me. They should have consulted me.

Even animating the drama, they did that and it's symbolic enough, but there's certain accuracies or what happened in that courtroom that that court trial transcript cannot tell you. So that's what I saw missing. They could have had ten more minutes of animation behind the scenes in jail with me and even the behind the scenes of them attempting to gag me.

One time I was strapped to a wooden chair, a very finished wooden Mahogany chair, arm chair, my arms are strapped and my legs are strapped with hospital straps, not chains, and this big guy, this big Goliath guy, this big African American guy who hated everything that looked like a protest was attempting to press gauze inside of my mouth, and I'm spitting at him.

Then finally, I push back, and he comes again, and I bite his hand. I had to bite his finger and say, "You dumb son of a bitch, you put that motherfucker in my mouth, and I'll choke, you son of a bitch. I can be sitting there and choking and die."

So the other Black Marshal who had been pulled in from Arizona walked out and I said, "He was trying to put gauze in my mouth, and they were causing me to swallow, and I could choke to death." So the guard said, "Oh, yeah, right, you can't do that." So the guy who was trying to put it in was moonlighting from the county jail, he wasn't a Marshal, and I'm just saying there's a lot of shit here, you know what I mean? Comic shit, and all kind of crap.

I'm not trying to lambast the film, Chicago 10, I'm saying this is an important film to look at, because it does tell you about human involvement, protest movement, and our trial that went down in history. Young people have got to see this film, but, at the same time, we could have put a hell of a lot more relevant and consistent drama in there.

TONY: How do you think today's media would have impacted the trial?

Paul Krassner: It would have gotten a different kind of coverage, certainly. It would have been blogged to pieces, which I think is a good thing. The more dialogue, the better. Young people would have known what was going on. At that point, Abbie Hoffman would get in the phone booth during the trial and call Bob Fass at Pacifica Station WBAI every night and give him a report, which is not exactly 24-7, but it would have been totally different now and more revealing.

It would have been a continuation of the chant that broke out at the Chicago Police Riot as it was officially described in the government report, the Walker Commish Report, and the chant was, "The whole world is watching! The whole world is watching!" And I think this would have extended to the trial itself even more than it was.

Bobby Seale: A trial like that going on today, I would have to compare to what was happening then. The FBI had a counter intelligence program operation. They were stereotyping, sending press releases, not only to the press, but they were sending the same press releases to politicians in particular areas where we were located and operated out of, like Chicago.

So they constantly were distorting what we are about, and they constantly were distorting what the protest movement people are about, and constantly distorting what the Anti-War Movement is about. I remember when my Free Breakfast for Children program spread all across the country, J. Edgar Hoover is on television for the second time talking about being a threat to internal security of America and stating the Black Panther Party Free Breakfast programs are a threat to the internal security of America.

So we are all a threat to the internal security of America in terms of the disinformation that's going out there. And nowadays, it's a much more covert, slick and underhanded method that the Bush administration and other government use to try to repress protests.


TONY: When you watch this film today and you see all of the archival footage, what goes through your head?

Paul Krassner: It's just a reminder of how sadistic and indiscriminate the beatings were. It was sending a message, and it was to scare other people away from demonstration. It just reminds me of why it was called the Police Riot, why the violence at Grant Park was set off by a fellow named Robert Pearson, who is a police provocateur who participated at Grant Park right before the riot of lowering the American flag, throwing stones and cursing at the police, taunting them. It was one of their own that triggered the biggest riot of all, and I think that's important.

Bobby Seale: In those days, they were not only about disinformation, they were also about trying to terrorize us out of existence. Particularly my organization, The Black Panther Party. The year of 1969, every Black Panther Party office in this country was attacked.

We come to find out later that the FBI had been meeting with the police department two and three and four months before they decided to attack the Black Panther Party office in many different cities, particularly in Los Angeles and it had all set up with Seattle. It just so happen we got lucky because a young white policeman knew that these people were talking about going and shooting.

They weren't going to say you're under arrest or nothing, they were gonna come in shooting outright. He stole the plans, he gave them to our lawyer, and our lawyer and this white policeman got on the press and we put it in the front page that the police working with the FBI set up to attack The Black Panther Party office and they expect 15 to 20 dead when they do this attack.

Now, we exposed them. That in a letter later caused the young white mayor of Seattle, Washington to tell the FBI to get out of the police department, and you're not gonna attack The Black Panther Party here in Seattle, Washington.

And later the Senate investigation here with Senator Kennedy and Senator Church revealed when they put the FBI on the spot for 10 or 12 days, and why are you running around here trying to attack and shoot up and kill the Black Panthers?

After that, there were never, ever any more shootouts. See, I lecture with this stuff all over the country every year to try and get young folks now to understand that.

TONY: Do you think any trial has come close to your trial in terms of media attention?

Bobby Seale: I don't think none. Paul?

Paul Krassner: The only one that comes to mind and there are many examples, but in terms of the Yippies who used stunts and theater to get attention because we had no advertising budget ...what occurs to me was Jack Kevorkian when he had himself out on the sidewalk with his hands coming through coals, like the stocks that they used to put witches through in the Salem Witchcraft day, and I just thought that was a powerful visual image that did get attention on TV and still photos all over the globe. And using the media to get your message across and in both the Yippies and with Dr. Kevorkian, it was to reveal what was considered injustice.