wrestling / Columns
Ask 411 Wrestling 11.23.11: Leaving Dragon’s Gate, Changing Rap, Two Title Belts, More!
Hey there, welcome to Ask 411 Wrestling. I’m Mathew Sforcina, your host, and I’m bloody tired. Doing a double shift at work can, and has in this case, done a number on my mental capacity. I’m not loopy, by any means. But I also realise that I’m not 100% there. So, to that end, guess what?
Total Opinion Week!
Given that no-one has thrown a hissy fit over it recently. They’re too busy still arguing about John Morrison and Trish Stratus. Maybe if they had a dance off that would solve things…
Anyway, next week will be back to normal, I swear. Although really these things often have facts a plenty anyway…
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Backtalking
Actually last week was fairly solid discussion, once you get past that issue. Thanks for the good discussion, those that gave it. And yeah, actually the more I think about it, the more awesome Seymour Krelborn sounds as an idea. Have young rookie somehow gain Brodus Clay’s loyalty, uses him to beat up the heels and then gets corrupted with the power… Book it!
Your Turn, Smart Guy…
Who am I? I share a link with William Regal, Shawn Michaels and The Ultimate Warrior. I’ve had a WWE DVD made about me. I’ve never beaten The Undertaker one on one. I unveiled a new partner on the Barber Shop. My wife got used in an angle once. Having worked in WWE, WCW and ECW, I am who?
Alan! Claim your virtual cookie!
“Who am I? I share a link with William Regal, Shawn Michaels and The Ultimate Warrior.”
They are all part of Daniel Bryan’s Dream Survivor Series Team (from wwe.com).
“I’ve had a WWE DVD made about me.”
It’s called “Pick Your Poison”
“I’ve never beaten The Undertaker one on one.”
Lost to him at Wrestlemania VIII.
“I unveiled a new partner on the Barber Shop.”
Lucifer, the big brother of Damien.
“My wife got used in an angle once.”
Rick Rude tried to kiss his wife Cheryl and wore tights with her face on them.
“Having worked in WWE, WCW and ECW, I am who?”
Jake “The Snake” Roberts.
Who Am I? I’ve Spun The Wheel, Made The Deal. I’ve teamed up with Goldust. I won my last match in a WWE ring. I’ve been runner up in a King of Something tournament. Once injured by Muta, I am who?
Questions, Questions, Who’s Got The Questions?/My Damn Opinion
Ironically enough, we begin with actual content, from Anthler. Anthler has asked some Japanese based questions, and if you have been reading me for a while, firstly my condolences, secondly you know that when it comes to Japan, I bow to the superior wisdom of one Ryan ‘Might Be Reviewing Me Soon’ Byers! Everyone cheer!
I said cheer dammit! Anyway, I may toss in my 2 cents if I have them and they are different to Ryan. You don’t see anything added, I agree.
Didn’t see my previous question up yet, but you probably have a huge backlog. I have more questions for future editions of Ask 411 Wrestling though. These questions are about Dragon Gate, so you might need Byers, but i’d rather hear what you think about it.
1. Almost all Dragon Gate guys (the first 2 classes of Ultimo Dragon’s Toryumon and T2P) tend to stay in Dragon Gate as their main promotion with guys going to bigger promotions after they have some sort of falling out with Dragon Gate. The guys who move to other promotions often never come back to Dragon Gate. My question here is, why do they all stick around only Dragon Gate when they could make more money and gain more recognition in NJPW, NOAH, AJPW or even overseas?
As the Japanese pro wrestling landscape stands in 2011, the most likely answer to your question is that Dragon Gate guys tend to stay in Dragon Gate because, believe it or not, Dragon Gate is where they can make the most money and gain the most recognition. Pro Wrestling NOAH and All Japan Pro Wrestling are not the powerhouse companies that they used to be. NOAH has lost all of its television coverage aside from an odd slot on a minor satellite station, and, though Keiji Mutoh and his regime have managed to keep AJPW limping along ever since NOAH split off from them in the early part of the decade, the fact of the matter is that they’ve been riding dangerously close to financial collapse for the majority of the last ten years. Meanwhile, Dragon Gate has actually managed to grow as a company and remain somewhat profitable. Even though some English-speaking puroresu fans will still consider NOAH or AJPW to be “bigger” promotions than Dragon Gate, the fact of the matter is that, as we sit here today, DG has a better television outlet and draws significantly better for major shows than either of the two more established groups. So, assuming that the three groups have similar policies in terms of passing their earnings on to wrestlers, you’re probably going to make a better living as a member of the Dragon Gate roster than you are as a member of the NOAH or AJPW rosters, and you’re certainly going to be in the company that has the least likelihood of going out of business at any given time.
Of course, that doesn’t answer the question as to New Japan Pro Wrestling, which still remains the clear-cut number one promotion in the country in terms of visibility and profitability. Why haven’t more Dragon Gate guys shown interest in becoming part of the NJPW roster? The answer most likely has to do with the amount of interest that New Japan shows in them. Though size barriers aren’t as great in Japan as they are in the US, the fact of the matter is still that New Japan is predominantly a heavyweight promotion and, though they are given times throughout the year in which to shine, the junior heavyweights (the division virtually every Dragon Gate wrestler would fit into) are a secondary attraction. There are fewer of them than there are the heavyweights, and NJPW tends to produce many of them out of their own dojo. Thus, there really aren’t that many opportunities for Dragon Gate wrestlers to make the jump from NJPW.
And overseas? WWE has has established that they don’t particularly care about pushing Japanese wrestlers. Ditto for TNA. Mexico might seem to be a viable option at first blush, but everything I have ever heard about wrestling in Mexico indicates that the pay is not good at all if you’re coming in from out of the country, mostly due to the exchange rate.
So the short answer is that, for the most part, Dragon Gate guys stay in Dragon Gate because it’s the place where they’ll make the most money, either because their other options don’t pay well or because they won’t take them.
2. Milano Collection AT is probably one of the bigger stars post Dragon Gate as he went to NJPW and won the Best of the Super Juniors 2007. I’ve heard that he had a falling out with Dragon Gate management after Toryumon became Dragon Gate, then did he a super tour of the US indies before settling down in NJPW and then retiring. To my knowledge, he never returned to Dragon Gate at any point afterwards due to harsh feelings about the company. My question here is what is the nature of the falling out Milano had with Dragon Gate? What pissed off Milano Collection AT so much that he had to quit the promotion when almost all of his contemporaries stayed?
To the best of my knowledge, neither Milano nor Dragon Gate has either made a public statement as to what their side of the story is, so any answer that you’re going to get to this question is going to involve comment from third parties. However, the commonly accepted version of the story seems to be that Milano was at one point positioned to be the ace of the Dragon Gate promotion and, when he was not elevated to that level, he became frustrated and started looking at other options. He also needed to step away from the ring for a little while to allow nagging injuries to heal, and, in that time away, he started thinking about his goals and what he could accomplish in Dragon Gate. He had reportedly been interested in wrestling in the United States ever since the beginning of his career, and his frustration with his position in DG made the decision to go on an excursion to America all the easier. After suffering a biceps injury during his US run, Milano was put on the shelf, and, when he was ready to go again, New Japan came calling. He stayed there until retiring in 2010 due to an eye injury that would lead to him risking his vision if he were to continue wrestling.
That is also what I’ve heard, although it was in passing as a story about picking your battles.
3. Shuji Kondo and “Brother” YASSHI were also two guys who also started in Dragon Gate but later after some sort of falling out, they ended up in AJPW and Yasshi retired. What is the nature of the falling out between Kondo, Yasshi and Dragon Gate?
Kondo and YASSHI didn’t leave Dragon Gate alone. In 2004, they were part of the heel stable Aagan Issou, alongside Shogo Takagi, Takuya Sugawara, and Toru Owashi. However, towards the end of that year, all five members of the unit were fired by Dragon Gate. Early in 2005, the DG office held a press conference about the situation. They did not state exactly why Aagan Issou was “dismissed,” instead opting to make vague comments about every member of the roster needing to exhibit professional conduct at all times and Aagan Issou’s conduct falling below that standard. There are two stories that I have heard about exactly what the problematic “conduct” of Kondo, YASSHI, and company happened to be. Some people make the claim that Aagan Issou was being punished because one or more of their members (the story almost always includes YASSHI) did something at a company Christmas party which gravely offended an executive from Gaora, the television network that aired DG’s programming. A television outlet is the life blood of any wrestling organization, so you don’t offend the network or the sponsors. (Just ask Daniel Bryan and his neck tie about that one.) The other version of the story that I have heard is that Aagan Issou was let go because they took some liberties with then-rookie Naoki Tanizaki in a match, almost severely injuring him. Obviously that too would be a huge no-no in the wrestling world, so it is another plausible explanation. It is completely unclear to me, though, whether one story or the other is true or whether the termination of the stable resulted from a combination of the two incidents.
That one I have no idea about.
4. SUWA is another guy who was part of Toryumon, but i don’t think he ever made the transition to Dragon Gate. He ended up in NOAH before he eventually retired. Same question here, why did he quit Toryumon and move to NOAH before Dragon Gate was formed?
SUWA’s departure from the company occurred close to the same time that Ultimo Dragon broke his ties with the promotion, and the speculation is that he walked away out of loyalty to Ultimo because the two were very close. SUWA never said this publicly, though. When he was asked about leaving the promotion, he claimed that he had always wanted to retire from wrestling before he hit the age of 30 and that he always wanted to wrestle for promotions other than Toryumon/Dragon Gate before he retired, which meant that leaving the company when he did was just a logical advancement of his career plan. There were also a handful of interviews in which he was critical of the “style” of Dragon Gate, which featured a lot of “pretty boy” wrestlers who danced on their way down to the ring. It’s not entirely clear, though, whether comments like that reflected SUWA’s true thoughts or whether he was just staying in character.
I’d plump for character staying. Given his comments about the English…
5. The last alumni i recall no longer working for Dragon Gate is one of the bigger stars of Toryumon, Magnum TOKYO. Magnum eventually ended up in HUSTLE before it folded and he retired. I think he came back to Dragon Gate to train BxB Hulk, but why did he quit to go off to wrestle in HUSTLE?
Magnum didn’t really leave Dragon Gate to go wrestle in HUSTLE. He left Dragon Gate and stopped wrestling altogether for a period of time because his body was banged up (in particular, he developed an eye condition, similar to Milano Collection AT) and he wanted to get out of wrestling to heal. When he went to HUSTLE, it was essentially an opportunity for him to get back to the wrestling world and earn some money while wrestling a style that was significantly less physical than DG’s and saw him wrestling significantly fewer dates than the DG schedule, meaning the wear and tear on his body that he was originally concerned about wouldn’t be there.
6. Why do the Dragon Gate guys never end up in any reports trying out for WWE or TNA in any full-time capacity? The WWE only has their one token Japanese guy, but they’ve given tryouts for Shinsuke Nakamura, Takashi Morishima, and Go Shiozaki, so they’re probably open to the idea. Why do they not give any of the Dragon Gate guys a chance?
As far as WWE is concerned, I don’t know the answer to a certainty, but I would bet that it’s largely a size issue. Wrestlers like Nakamura, Morhishima, Shiozaki, and even Yoshi Tatsu aren’t “big guys” by WWE standards, but they’re all big enough that they’re not going to look out of place in a main event slot in the company. Dragon Gate guys, meanwhile, are pretty damn small by comparison. As an example, CIMA, who is probably the DG wrestler with the charisma that would best translate to the WWE environment, is *billed* at 180 pounds, which means that in reality he’s probably even lighter. With some rare exceptions, you just don’t see guys of that size running around on the E’s television, so most of the Dragon Gate roster isn’t going to get the time of day when tryouts are being given to foreign talent. Plus, when it comes to Morishima and Shiozaki, they’re NOAH guys, and NOAH has an affiliation with Harley Race’s World League Wrestling promotion. Race is and almost always has been on good terms with WWE after his run there, so those “tryouts” could have been a favor to Race just as much as they were a legitimate audition to become a part of the company.
On the TNA front, Dragon Gate guys actually have shown up in the promotion on a limited basis, with Naruki Doi and Masato Yoshino popping in for the 2008 World X Cup tournament. Why haven’t more DG wrestlers been in? I don’t have the slightest idea, but, when you look at the way that TNA books the Japanese wrestlers that it actually DOES have at its disposal, I’m glad that they don’t. (When’s the last time Akira “Kiyoshi” Raijin got an TV time, anyway?)
The Infamous Red Cage Match, Jan 4th, 2010. NSFW. Unless you work in the Marines.
7. The last question is on cross-promotion. When the WWE tours Japan, they use only all WWE guys, at least on TV. Understandable since their own guys are free to use under contract, but have they ever considered cross-promotion with NJPW, NOAH, or AJPW even at a dark match level? Like have an Intercontinental or World Title defense against a guy from one of the native Japanese promotions? The WWE can still have their guy win, they’ll probably get a great match out of it, have the crowd come across as lively on TV as they’ll know the native guy, and helps cross promote both promotions. I’m chomping at the bit to see Ziggler vs Tanahashi or Danielson vs KENTA again. The same can be said of their recent tour of Mexico.
It’s been many years, but WWE did cooperate with Japanese promotions at one point in time. From the mid-1970s through the mid-1980s, the WWF had a strong working relationship with New Japan Pro Wrestling, which is why you’ll see Antonio Inoki popping in for big Madison Square Garden shows from the era and WWF championships like the WWF Junior Heavyweight Title being loaned out to NJPW. The WWF, New Japan, and All Japan Pro Wrestling all participated in a massive joint show in Japan with one another in April 1990, including matches like the Giant Baba teaming up with Andre Giant and Randy Savage wrestling Genichiro Tenryu. Not long after that, the WWF switched its major Japanese affiliate to an upstart company called Super World of Sports that only stayed in business for a couple of years, though they were solvent long enough to run a couple of joint shows with the Fed, including more trips overseas for Hogan and Savage. The SWS promotion had Tenryu as its top wrestler, so that relationship is also how we explain his seemingly random appearance on Wrestlemania VII.
Of course, in recent years, the co-promotion has come to an end. Why? It’s because modern-day WWE has nothing to gain from it. The popularity of puroresu has PLUMMETED in Japan since the 1990s, and it’s to the point that the WWE product probably has just as much (if not more) exposure among the Japanese public than any mainstream promotion. Plus, based on reports I’ve heard from multiple sources, when an American product like WWE comes to Japan, the Japanese people are interested in having as authentic of an experience as possible as opposed to seeing “their guys” in the ring against Americans.
8. Building on #7, when the WWE toured Mexico, none of the Lucha guys, especially Mysterio or Mistico/Sin Cara cut any promos in Spanish and in the end they completely did not cater to the local crowd at all. They could paid a small pittance (or told him this was going to be his tryout match and have him work for free) to Averno and have him go 10 minutes with Mistico to open the show. They could even have Del Rio vs Mistico for 10 minutes to pump up the crowd. Even though the WWE can potentially conquer Mexico on their own without cross-promotion (Mistico and Dos Caras Jr were pretty much the #1 and #3 babyface in Mexico), why didn’t they show at least one match the crowd wanted to see? Even for a dark match? Also why didn’t they have Mistico cut any promos in spanish? He’s a good promo in spanish.
Actually, I’ll step in here, although I will again thank Ryan ‘Saved My Ass Yet Again’ Byers for his splendid work. Go read his stuff. It’s awesome.
Anyway, WWE, if they had really wanted to appeal to the Mexican fanbase, could have simply announced Sin Cara V Sin Cara in a Mask V Mask match a few weeks prior and that would have drawn gangbusters. But because of WWE’s booking style right now, they tossed it in a week prior.
But that said, you’re looking at it from a fan’s viewpoint, asking how WWE could appeal to the Mexican Wrestling Fan. The WWE isn’t after that group. It’d be cool to get, sure, but they want the kids and families, they want the same market they have in the USA and around the world. So they present their WWE Style Product and that’ll do. They don’t need to change their style of presentation, they have a couple of Mexicans, that’s enough, right?
(I think I need a “Speaking as someone else” symbol. Clayface? The Other Guys? Sin Cara Negro?)
George doesn’t really have a question.
On your 11-09-2010 column, one of the questions is about alternate WM plans. I don’t know all the original WM plans, but I do know that WM 22 originally had a very different card.
Eddie Guerrero vs. Shawn Michaels
A lot of people heard rumors that Eddie was supposed to get another world title run shortly after he died. While this wasn’t true, what people were supposed to get was something much better, a Wrestlemania match between Latino Heat and Shawn Michaels.
Further evidence? You can see traces of the plans in the WM feud that did happen between Vince McMahon and HBK, where God, faith, and holiness were used as a motif throughout the feud, motifs which would’ve fit well in a feud between two former drug addicts turned born again Christians. Vince is obsessed with controversial angles, saw an opportunity to use one with Eddie/HBK, and acted on it. Vince isn’t the type to let something like death change his storyline plans.
Why it changed? Eddie Guerrero died.
John Cena (c) vs. 2006 Royal Rumble winner Triple H
This match was the plan from the beginning, but I’m 90% sure Triple H was originally supposed to win the 2006 Royal Rumble. The first half of 2006 was basically one long angle to turn Triple H babyface, and what better way to get over as a babyface than after winning a grueling Royal Rumble to dethrone a dickhead champion everyone hates? I’m pretty sure Hunter was going to win this one originally, but with Rey Mysterio’s title win on the same show, and Hunter not winning the Rumble, plans changed.
A shame too, I know everyone hates Triple H, but what kind of person wanted Cena of all people to walk out of WM 22 with a win against anybody?
Further evidence? Triple H did the exact same angle the previous year, except he was the dickhead, and despite not winning the 2006 Royal Rumble, Triple H was still the number 1 entry, and went 60+ minutes before being eliminated.
Why it changed? Eddie Guerrero died, so WWE decided to cash in on it by giving Rey the Royal Rumble win, and the worst booked title reign in the history of wrestling.
Undertaker vs. Kurt Angle
It’s common knowledge that this was supposed to happen. Angle is about as credible a challenger for anything as you can get, even up against the Streak. No sane person would honestly think Mark Henry was the original choice for this. Some say Angle was supposed to go over here, and while I’m not sure either way, he did walk out of WM 22 without getting pinned.
Further evidence? They ran the angle anyway a month before WM 22 at No Way Out. The only thing that changed was the date, and the lack of the streak. Angle went over here too.
Why it changed? Batista got injured, and with Eddie dead, Angle was sent to Smackdown, and made champion the night he arrived in a battle royal.
Batista (c) vs. Randy Orton
Pretty obvious, the companies top babyface faces the up and coming top heel at the biggest show of the year.
Further evidence? Orton was in the title match anyway, and no sane person can say that Rey was originally booked to main event WM.
Why it changed? Batista got injured, Eddie died, Rey won the Rumble, Triple H called facing Cena months in advanced, and Angle was made champion.
Man, if Triple H actually beat Cena on WM 22 and turned face, and the undercard was filled with HBK/Eddie and Taker/Angle, WM 22 might’ve been the greatest PPV ever.
Uh, not by what I’ve heard. The booking, as I’ve heard, was that Eddie was actually going to wrestle… oh dear… The Undertaker.
In a Casket Match.
Yeah.
Eddie was going to turn on Smackdown at Survivor Series and then end up facing Taker as retribution. Now the rest you’re on track with, although it depends on what point you are at. After Eddie died, the plan was for Mysterio (after Chavo turned the push down) to win the Rumble, Orton win if off him, then do Orton V DAVE at WM as the plan. Prior to that… HHH winning I guess makes sense, but I suspect Orton would have won, myself. But Cena/HHH 2 was clear. As was DAVE/Orton.
But hey, we’ll never know. Just argue about it incessantly instead.
Joshua has a question that’s nicely simple.
What are your Top 5 Favorite wrestlers T-shirts of all time?
nWo Classic
Austin 3:16 Classic
Cactus Jack Wanted Dead
Hogan Classic
DX Classic
Simple, distinctive, lucrative.
Wayne asks the sorts of questions that are hard to answer definitively.
I have a few questions, but first I want to say keep up the great work regarding the column. It’s always a great read.
1) Has there been any time in history where something was on WWF/E TV and it wasn’t approved by Vince?
Well sure. Every injury, black out and 95% of WWE clips on Botchamania weren’t approved by Vince.
But you’re asking more in terms of plot twists, shoots, that sort of thing? No. Ever since Vince took over the company, he’s been the head guy. Even when he was out with his double quad injury, he was still watching and giving orders to Steph.
Now, that isn’t to say that he micromanages EVERY single tiny little aspect of the show, although I’m sure he’d love to. But I don’t know of any angle or moment beyond stuff out of Botchamania that wouldn’t have at least been given an ok by Vince.
Speaking of…
2) Speaking of Vince, remember back in the middle of 2008 when he did the “McMahon’s Million Dollar Mania” on Raw, and on the June 30, 2008 episode of Raw, after announcing the $500,000 winner (please provide the clip if you can), the set piece near him collapse and he fell off the stage? Did they plan to go anywhere with this or after it happened they just never mentioned it again? Refresh my memory please.
June 23rd, actually.
It was designed to be a shocking twist to get some buzz and to give them a way to end the Million Dollar Mania thing without losing any face (well, without losing MORE face…). Shane McMahon came out the next week, said that the family was keeping his condition private, ending the Mania, and rebooting everything a little.
Of course, the reboot lead to Mike Adamle as Raw GM. So mixed blessings there.
Anyway, in storyline he recovered and returned in January 2009 as a face.
But they didn’t end up going anywhere with it as a whodunit or anything, as some people suspected.
3) I think I may know the answer to this one, but I’m going to ask anyway, lol. During the video package leading up to Shawn Michaels vs. Steve Austin’s WWF title match at Wrestlemania XIV, some Mike Tyson clips were being played, and towards the end, the interviewer asked “after such a large event (referring to Mania XIV), what’s next?” Tyson mentions, “Wrestlemania XV”. Were there any plans of bringing Tyson in for Mania XV?
No.
Simon asks an open ended question.
Hello,
Great column, I love the fantasy booking aspect of this column so my question is. If you could change / tweek any 5 Wrestlemanias what would it be? I have listed my 5 below to give you an example of what I mean.
1.Wrestlemania 9 – My change here would be to make the main event Hogan-Hart. Have Yokozuna going against Macho Man & save the whole Yokozuna title run via salt in the eyes until after WM9 in order to keep King of the Ring exactly how it was. Also change HBK – Tatanka to HBK – Janetty & put Razor Ramon against The Undertaker instead of the Giant.
2.Wrestlemania 11 – Swap King Kong Bundy for the Million Dollar Man in the Taker match, this could turn into a gauntlet match against the full corporation.
3.Wrestlemania 18 – I would put Rock – Hogan on last.
4.Wrestlemania 24 – Make Cena – Orton a 1 on 1 match and give HHH any other match (perhaps for the ECW title or in the battle for brand supremicy).
5.Wrestlemania 25 – Change the Jericho – Ledgends match to an IC Title ledgentds lumberjack match between Jericho & Steamboat. Also put Randy Orton over HHH & make Edge – 5Cena a 1 on 1 match (the exact same from the same years Backlash) with Show putting Cena through the light after the match.
Hmm. How much tweekage am I doing here? I mean, I’ve done IX before, so to recap:
… for starters, Hogan and Beefcake win the tag titles. Hogan as a Tag Champion is how I’d have used him pretty much all the time after Hulkamania died down slightly/Hollywood Hogan played out. He beats up people, works the crowd during the heat, gets the hot tag, everyone’s happy. Plus you’d get a couple more years out of him easy.
But that said… I’d switch up Razor/Bob with HBK/Tatanka, have Razor/Tatanka with a solid match while I have Bob put over HBK as the future of the business (with the storyline being Bob wants the Triple Crown and HBK acting like Bob’s no-one, then being forced to step up his game and use all his skill to beat the former multi-year World Champion). Taker I have either going over Gonzales clean, or I have Crush beat Gonzales as a world beater and have Doink/Taker, which would be a fascinating match/build, with Doink playing all his tricks and Taker no-selling all of it, then killing him at Wrestlemania.
And as for the main… Yoko over. Screw it, you need something huge, something major, unexpected. Business was going down, having a guy like Yoko win and remain champ at Wrestlemania would, hopefully, get some buzz around him. It’s risky, yes, but it’s the best option they had at the time.
Of course, there’s still the major issue of when I’m allowed to tweak from. I’m assuming I can’t change injuries or what have you. But given some time ahead of the show…
WM2: One change. But it’s a big one. A few months prior to WM, Piper gets a shot at the WWF Title and then cheats outrageously and wins the belt on the screwiest of screwjobs. T gets to beat Orton in a Boxing match in New York while in LA, to prevent cheating, inside the cage, Hogan wins his title back.
WMXI: The Summer of Diesel never happens. Instead, Backlund reigns from Survivor Series through to WM where HBK beats him to win the title and kick off the New Generation. Although this sets off Bret Hart who loses to Diesel on the show by cheating, then HBK does what he couldn’t AND WM is main evented by a football player… Hart Foundation comes a couple years early…
WMX7: I know, I know, it’s the Holy Grail, the greatest WM/PPV/Whatever of all time. But the fact is, the Invasion should have started here. The InVasion should have been the biggest storyline of all time, as the 3 biggest wrestling companies in history merged with one giant storyline. Have the WCW and ECW guys under contract interact and be backstage, have Foley and Austin share a beer over their WCW history, whatever, anything, but start the InVasion precursors here.
WMX8: End the Invasion here, having started it a year earlier. WWE Champion V WCW Champion V ECW Champion (or Lunatic Fringe Leader, whatever), winner takes all.
Michael wants to talk about the West Texas Rednecks.
Matthew,
The West Texas Rednecks were mentioned due to Barry Windham in this week’s column, and that reminded me of a question that has been haunting me since those dark days of WCW. Their theme song was very specifically referred to as “I Hate Rap” when it first debuted. But after I think just one week, the title suddenly became “Rap is Crap,” and I’m pretty sure when they played it, those words were more prominent in the lyrics, too. At the time, as a country fan (let’s not even get into the issue of how the Rednecks were being pushed as heels when most of WCW’s target audience agreed with them), I knew that there actually was a real song called “I Hate Rap,” so I assumed that there was a copyright issue that forced them to change it. Is that the case, or was WCW just being idiotic, or did Tony just make a mistake? Or is my memory just completely off?
Well no, you have it right. Tony debuted it as I Hate Rap, and then it became Rap is Crap by the time they had a music video.
Now, why the change? I was unable to find any source that said they got sued over it (and you can’t really sue over a song title, to my knowledge), but I believe it’s a case of WCW trying to ensure that the West Texas Outlaws (Rednecks was meant to be an insult but everyone called them that) were booed, they realised that Rap Is Crap is a more heelish title. I Hate Rap is an opinion. Rap Is Crap is an insult.
And then the song got airtime on some radio shows and WCW sent cease and desist letters instead of, you know, releasing it as a single…
Shawn is all over the shop, but starts in Hell.
Hey Mathew, great column that is a must read every week, really appreciate you taking the time to answer questions from myself and all the other Ask411 fans. I have a few questions, some about Hell In A Cell matches(watched the DVD recently) and some just general questions.
1. In the first HIAC match between Taker and HBK there is the part when HBK beats up the cameraman(obviously just a way for them to get out of the Cell), but then when Kane was coming down to the ring he pushed another cameraman. Was there some storyline with this or something? I understand why HBK did it but not why Kane would, was it just to put him over as a monster, or am I looking into something that isn’t there?
You’re reading slightly too much into it. It was to show that Kane was an inhuman monster. Michaels had to beat on a cameraman as it was the only way he could desperately think of to try and run away from the big scary Undertaker. Kane didn’t have to do that, but he’s such an inhuman uncaring bastard he did it.
2. In the first HIAC match, when Kane comes out he he rips the door off, chain and all. But then in another HIAC(Taker/Austin vs Kane/Mankind) he can’t get the door off to save Paul from Taker. Was this ever explained(more chains or something)? Seems weird that he can rip the door off to beat up his brother, but not to save his “dad” from getting beat up.
I doubt it. This is Russo we are talking about, who forgets about stipulations and established rules and regulations whenever it damn well suits him and the story he’s telling. That said, you can argue that the lock was stronger, or perhaps that this time, since he had been brawling, and was by this point wrestling regularly, he was a little weaker. He hadn’t spent the last few weeks training and pumping weights, so he had lost a little muscle between the two points…
3. In the first few HIAC matches, it was clearly stated that the match had to be won by pinfall or submission in the ring. But then that rule seemed to get thrown out the window, as HHH vs Y2J and Taker vs Brock had pinfall/submission attempts outside the ring(even on top of the Cell). Along the same lines, the Kane vs Mankind HIAC ends in a DQ due to interference(I believe), how is it that they can beat the hell out of each other with weapons during the match but it end in a DQ? Were the rules changed at some point or did WWE just ignore it and do what they want?
Bingo. WWE, and Russo especially, will ignore history whenever they damn well like. That said, Kane V Mankind wasn’t a DQ, it was a no contest as the entire point of Hell In A Cell was to prevent outside interference.
So Steve Austin coming out from under the ring negated the entire point, getting the match thrown out rather than a DQ. But yes, WWE will change the rules if/when they like, although they’ll claim that the Board or the GM or the Authority Figure made the ruling weeks ago, it’s in the rulebook now as this…
4. So I am aware of the real and replica belts thing(with the real one on TV, replica on house shows/in wrestler’s houses), but recently when Punk and Cena were both champs there were 2 belts on TV. How did they do this? Both looked real/the same, was one a replica(if so, which man had the replica)? Did they make another Hero belt just for this occasion?
I believe John Cena had one of the replicas, at least at first. Punk would have kept the Hero belt. Replicas are normally pretty damn accurate, it’s not like they’re made of tin foil or anything, they pass even a good hard look, it’s just that they aren’t quite as good. Punk’s belt is slightly larger, slightly darker, so it’s probably the original one. Cena then had a second one later on, a high quality replica given the angle, which he may or may not have kept.
5. What is the logic behind the foot stomping before Sweet Chin Music, or wrestlers yelling a signature line before doing a move(Taker with “Old School!” or Punk with “Nap Time!”)? It seems to me that this would just give away what they are doing and let the opponent be prepared for it. Why do wrestlers do this?
So that the fans know what’s coming and get excited.
In the ring? It’s arrogance, coupled with a desire to hear the fans chant your name/cheer for you. And the stomping is to limber up the foot so that it’s nice and warmed and primed to deliver the kick. But also to get the fans behind you. Or, if the fans hate you, to piss them off and drink in their hatred like wine.
It’s to appeal to the fans mostly, just depends on your viewpoint.
6. Mick Foley in his WWE career had 4 distinct gimmicks(Mankind, Dude Love, Cactus Jack, Mick Foley). Has anyone had such success with so many different gimmicks? I can’t think of anyone who had that many gimmicks, never mind that many successful ones. Can anyone top Foley in this sense?
Thanks,
Define successful and gimmick. I mean, Brooklyn Brawler has held that many gimmicks, Brooklyn Brawler, Steve Lombardi, Doink The Clown, Abe Knuckleball Schwartz, Kim Chee… But would still having a job be considered a success?
So I’m assuming you don’t consider Taker a candidate since it’s basically the same name and gimmick, beyond maybe granting me a difference between Biker Taker and Lord of Darkness. (Add in Undead Zombie and Taker Texas Ranger and you have 4…)
Kane’s also had a few gimmicks, Masked Kane, Unmasked Kane, Isaac Yankem, Fake Diesel…
I mean, if you need name changes… Justin Hawk Bradshaw, Blackjack Bradshaw, Bradshaw, JBL.
But overall, no, no-one comes close to Foley for making such a go of totally separate gimmicks. At least, not in my mind. I’m sure people below have ideas, so we’ll see about that and come back next week. See you then!
