411Music Fact Or Fiction 11.06.08: Week 75

Posted by Dan Haggerty on 11.20.2008

Mikey MiGo and Chris Cowing go head to head over Velvet Revolver being dropped by their label, Kanye West thinking he’s like Princess Diana, Bruce Springsteen’s music, and the legacy of Nine Inch Nails. Plus we delve into the social relevance of Marilyn Manson and you tell us if you’ll be checking out Chinese Democracy next week!

Welcome back to the Music Zone's own rendition of Thunder Dome. But in this case two writers enter and everyone in the audience gets to participate too, so in a way it's a lot cooler. First we have the man himself, the Savage Animal Mikey Mogo. This week he enters the arena with the man who came across the pond As The Crow Flies, Chris Crowing.

They battle for the truth at the middle of the hype, and the accolades of the most relevant people in the music business – You, the music fan. So let's get this bad boy a rolling!



Round 1!



1. You are not surprised that Velvet Revolver could be dropped by their label.

Chris Crowing: Fact: Any band who loses their established frontman is in trouble. Any band who loses a frontman as charismatic and beloved as Scott Weiland in in serious trouble. When said frontman manages to release a solo album AND have a tour lined up with his previous (more successful) band, you need to get off your arse and do something big. Velvet Revolver have mooned about, talked a little smack about Weiland, and made nebulous comments about getting another singer in. The word 'hiatus' has been also been tossed about. The fact that Duff has been more interested in his Loaded side project while his 'full time' band is in need of a singer will surely also be ringing alarm bells at company HQ. But any record company would start to worry about a band of known procrastinators and journeymen who are currently sitting without a singer, and don't seem in any hurry to recruit a new one.

Mikey MiGo: Fiction: I am surprised. Chris is right about the reasoning with them losing their lead singer, but it's not necessarily the end of the world. You have a band that is still very marketable, has chemistry, and will do well on the charts and road no matter who the singer is. One of my first concerts was "Slash's Snakepit" opening for the Crue back at the turn of the millennium. People ate that shit up. Then put on top of it that with Axl finally putting "Chinese Democracy" out that the nostalgia could be huge for the original GnR line up. Put in a Sebastian Bach or Lenny Kravtiz and start counting the money. This whole thing is not a Scott "Don't call me Bowie" Weiland vs. Velvet Revolver pissing contest. They should NOT just go out and try to do something to upstage Scott. They can procrastinate all they want. It's not like they're "Fall Out Boy" or "In This Moment", they've earned that right to sit around and let their inspiration come in a natural form. If Slash can play the "November Rain" guitar solo unconscious imagine what he could do when it comes to the grind.


Score : 0 for 1



2. Kanye West is nothing like Princess Diana and needs to shut the fuck up.

Chris Crowing: Fact: It really bugs me when any kind of celebrity starts moaning about media intrusion when they go shopping on Rodeo Drive or to this weeks hottest club - they'll be the first to pose when they've got something to sell or promote, but if a snapper takes a photo when your having a bad day, I guess y ou've every right to assault them. The attention that leads to it being worthwhile for papparazzos to take your photo is the SAME attention that sells you albums, tickets for your tours and pays for your houses, bling, cars and whatever.

It is of course one thing for a papparazzi to take photos of you coming out of a club, or a hotel or on the beach or wherever - (you signed up to be famous, deal with it!) it's another thing to have them chasing you in cars and sneaking into your house and things like that. There is a line that needs to be observed, but I don't think Kanye's 'assailants' have even come close to crossing it.

In fact his shrill attempt to seem persecuted is so feeble, it should hopefully end any illusion that Kanye is fo' real. The way rappers get underdog cred is by getting SHOT, look what it did for Tupac and Biggie's careers! Oh, and I doubt when Kanye West dies, there will be a national day of mourning. Anywhere. Except perhaps some purveyors of ridiculous jewelry and sunglasses might get a bit tearful.


Mikey MiGo: Fiction: There seems to be some hateful undertones there about Kanye and hip hop in general, Chris. You sound like my grandfather complaining about that dang gone "rap music". You probably spit your tea out when they announced Jay Z was coming there to "steal the festival" from rock and roll. Of course, I'm kidding. I am a huge fan of Kanye West's recent news items. He claims to be the voice of this generation AND compared himself to Princess Diana. I don't think there was even a week between those items. You can like his music or not, but to get all bitchy and annoyed by these statements makes those who do look lame. Once people realize that Kanye has a sense of humor, talks out of his ass in good fun, and is speaking as a living parody it'll be a better world. Remember those "Beatle" guys? They claimed to be bigger than Jesus. That still takes the cake, whether you like their music or not. The point is that Kanye is never boring, I DO like his music, and I don't see him going away any time soon. He can and will compare himself to anything to get attention and we're giving it to him RIGHT NOW. I'd rather him do that, than "get shot like rappers with underdog cred". Loosen20up, prudes!

Score : 0 for 2



3. You'll be checking out Guns N' Roses' Chinese Democracy next week when it is released.

Chris Crowing: Fact: Well...if by check out you mean I'll listen to the songs for free on youtube, then Fact. If you mean, will I BUY the album, then Fiction, because I just do not care. I like Guns N' Roses as much as the next rocker, in a nostalgic kind of way. You can't deny the sheer awesomeness of "Welcome to the Jungle," "Mr Brownstone" or "You Could Be Mine," but THAT Guns N' Roses is long dead, my friend. I've heard the rumors about Chinese Democracy, and the word is NOT good. Any album with that many different producers, a never-ending carousel of lead guitarists and songs that have been in gestation this long is a sure fire bet to sound like a disjointed compilation at best. But I could be wrong, and it'll be the second coming of rock music. That said, my greatest concern about the upcoming release of Chinese Democracy is that as a citizen of the United Kingdom I shall not be receiving my complimentary can of Dr. Pepper.

Mikey MiGo: Fact: I've already heard most of the tracks. I think anyone with any curiosity about the new GnR has listened to the countless "leaks" and "demos". I don't know about the negative rumors, but I've got a few magazines in the mail this week and a lot of the major publications are giving it good reviews. After all the time, the record amount of cash, and all the blah blah blah back story, it's going to be hard to shake that off. To listen to it without that in mind would be like being on a jury and being asked to pretend you don't know OJ Simpon's past. I think there are two different kinds of people when it comes to this album; t hose who want it to succeed and rock and those who are negative and want it to flop so they can turn their noses up to the GnR believers.


Intermission Score : 1 for 3


FACT OR FICTION OPEN CHALLENGE

OK. Last time for the Guns N' Roses album, but with it coming out how can we not talk about it? So tell us what you think… Are you going to pick up Chinese Democracy?

Hit the comment section and let us know!





SWITCH!






Round 2!





4. Bruce Springsteen in like a fine wine, he just keeps getting better with age.

Mikey MiGo: Fiction : I respect the man, but I don't like his music at all. To me, he's always going to be that guy who sang "Born in the USA ". He keeps touring and making Max miss Conan tapings and I find that really mean and selfish. If he's getting better it's not because his talent is improving, it's because he's getting old. It's a proven fact that more people will politely listen to an old man when complaining about things in the world. The Springsteen, Mellencamp, etc "Americana-rock" doesn't do it for me. I love my country, but c'mon. It's like he's reading a children's book with whiskey breathe. What's that one song that goes "I drove down the street. I sa w a tree. It had branches. I told the farmer he did well. I LOVE AMERICA !"? I think that's the chorus AND verse of every one of his songs. Yes, ALL of them. I'd rather think I'm right about that than be proven wrong.

Chris Crowing: Fiction : First I have to say that being Scottish, I'm somewhat insulated from Springsteen's impact and legacy. In fact I've only heard anything he's done since "Streets of Philadelphia" in passing, and his more recent work seems to be at first glance merely some passingly good folksy Americana. There's nothing wrong with that, and he wouldn't be the first artist to retreat into a reflective folk approach following massive success but just because he's older and more mature doesn't mean he's better. That and he wasn't, isn't and never will be a patch on Neil Young in my very unhumble opinion. Of course, I am utterly immune to all the 'I love America' stuff that Mikey so correctly nails down as Springsteen's MO, but I have to say the to me, the Boss means "Born in the USA," "Dancing in the Dark" and the above mentioned "Streets..." I can't think of one thing of his that's stuck in my head in recent years.

I think this is probably a case of the same old tired syndrome where artists come out in their youth and are fired up creatively, producing a string of landmark albums. Then their one absolute OPUS is either their first album to be a mega hit, or the one before it - and its all downhill from there. Once you're a mega star, you're a mega star and you can get away with some tremendous nonsense. Some stars manage to reinvent themselves and come back swinging, but Springsteen is just slipping into more and more formulaic Americana - just because you don't hear it every day, doesn't mean it's new or special, if you're really THAT impressed with whisky-throaty-backroads&dustbowls Springsteen I urge you to look deeper into the folksy scene, and you'll find younger, more passionate artists with far more to say, and far more to give you. They're concerts will be MUCH cheaper too. But then again, if you're that in love with the Boss, you're probably so blinkered that you'll only ever see an artists name if they are already up in lights. Shame.



Score : 1 for 4




5. It's sad that Marylin Manson will be remembered for his image and not the social commentary his music and image represented.

Mikey MiGo: Fact : The problem with this is that Marilyn Manson is a very intelligent man. He's into fine arts, makes a GREAT absinthe, and is a great performer. He has educated views on the life around him and is very well spoken in interviews. The problem is that he's "scary" and "obscene" by the moral standards of the conservative masses. They don't hear what he's saying because he's saying it in a guarder belt and in "spooky" make up. Another problem is that I don't think his first few albums were that well written. He had awesome hooks and production (thanks to Reznor), made some great singles, and gained a lot of attention. As he matured as an artist his commentary and views really started to come out. The old saying is "it's not what you say, it's how you say it" is bitter sweet in this case. "How" he says something will ALWAYS overshadow "what" he says. Unless, he transforms himself AGAIN and matures into someone like a Bowie or Cooper then I doubt anything of substance he says will ever stick into the annals of time.

Chris Crowing: Fact : It is a shame because Marilyn has talked a LOT of sense over the years, as well as producing some damned fine tunes. I'll freely admit that when Manson was first striking out onto the international scene with Antichrist Superstar I was less than impressed, and wrote him off as just another token shock merchant, using the inevitable moral backlash against his utterances to drive up his sales. There's no better way to make your kids LOVE something than tell them it's evil... Now, that was and is still true, but it's only after Mechanical Animals that I got into Marilyn's songs (and I quickly backtracked through the earlier stuff) and his autobiography was (while clearly edited for maximum SHAWK value) an intriguing read which showed his intelligence and thoughtfulness, as well as being a remarkably honest portrayal of his own failings as a person.

To my mind, Marilyn held a mirror up to the face of white America (and indeed the whole western world) and showed the hypocrisy and hatred that bubbles beneath the white picket fences - of course the conservative types hated that, and he'll always be marginalized for saying what needed to be said. I'll even go so far as to say that Marilyn could have done everything without make-up, in a suit and smart shoes and he'd still be vilified and reduced to a pop culture icon, rather than the very intelligent, insightful individual that he is because of the content of his message. There is NOTHING the establishment fears more than the whiff of "and do as you will shall be the whole of the law." Of course, without the stage show, the blood, and the ripping up the bible etc. the message would have been diluted. When you can't have conversation and debate, needs must you create confrontation.

BUT, controversial artists CAN become beloved by the establishment if they endure with success for long enough. Marilyn has been on a downward spiral (hehe) since Holy Wodd and Eat Me Drink Me seems to be a pale shadow of his earlier work - but if he can regroup and come back (getting Jordie White back in the fold is a GOOD thing) and make another hit album or two, he'll be a star of such enduring quality as to defy an attempts to marginalize him into 'that freaky goth who thought he could paint.'


Score : 3 for 5





6. Nine Inch Nails continues to be the most forward thinking band in the business today.

Mikey MiGo: Fact: Of course I'm going to say FACT. Some might say Radiohead, but I think Trent 's mind is something a lot more valuable than a "free album experiment". Trent Reznor IS Nine Inch Nails. You could put him on stage with a candle and a piano and you'd get your money's worth and a life changing experience. From the marketing and interactive story of Year Zero, giving away free albums, working outside his genre with Saul Williams, always changing his band for the music and energy's sake and all the way to his addictive melodies Trent Reznor is one of the few living visionaries out there. Not everything is perfect, but everything is his. You hear a track by Nickelback or see their name somewhere; you know what bullshit you're in for. If you see the classic N-I-backwards N, you have no idea what is in store. Trent has plenty of cards up his sleeves. Now that he's sans label it'll be great to see what comes next. I'll be there, probably screaming like a teenage girl at a Jonas Brother's concert.

Chris Crowing: Fiction: Wait, wait! I'm only saying fiction, because you can't call an artist in their forties the definitively 'most forward thinking artist in the business today,' as that sells short a great many, far younger artists, some brought up on Reznor's work. Just because you might not have heard it yet doesn't mean that the next wave isn't building under the surface. Now I will happily say Trent is ONE of the most important and influential artists in the world today, from his continuing place right on the edge of electronic music, his willingness to step outside his genre, blur the boundaries of genre, and his use of up to the minute technology right through the marketing edge (which is still important), releasing the Slip for free, the interactive nature of the Year Zero promotion, everything that Mikey covered. But Trent hasn't released a seminal album this decade, and good though With Teeth, Year Zero, Ghosts I-IV and The Slip were, they weren't a patch on Pretty Hate Machine, The Downward Spiral or The Fragile. In my view Trent is still an exemplary musician, and he is using his success to push forward change in the industry, and this is laudable in the extreme - too many established artists stop trying to do anything but pad their wallets. However, Trent has lost the fire that fuelled those early releases and while he is still a tremendously important musical figure, his importance is now more in how he uses his success, and the influence he has on younger, more vital artists. In fairness, I'd have said FACT if the stipulation had been 'one of the most forward thinking bandS today' or even 'the most forward thinking MAJOR band today. But you know I'll be first in line the next time NIN come through town


Final Score : 4 for 6


And on those happy words, we're calling it a show this week. I'm out of here so we'll see tomorrow in the The Mosh Pit and we'll see you back here is seven.