The 37th Chamber 03.11.09: The Main Event - Nate Dogg. Vs. T-Pain

Posted by Patrick Robinson on 03.11.2009

In a battle of Old Vs. New, Auto-tune Vs. Natural Ability, and Longevity Vs. Brevity, who will win the title of World Champion Hook Singer, Nate Dogg or T-Pain?

What started as a throwaway statement last week, ended with an interesting back and forth about Nate Dogg and T-Pain, so I can only think of one direction to go in this week.

A critical look at how the economy has affected rapper's real estate value and how it will affect them in the long run.

Or NOT because that sounds very much like something I'll have to do for class work at some point anyway.

Anyway, I just choked a little on the water I'm drinking, so before I end up killing myself through reckless water consumption, lets get started!

Reader Feedback
(May be edited for spelling, grammar etc.)

"Looks like Vanilla Ice just apologised. DOes that change thinsg at all?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AbAUi7savsk" - Taylor

To be perfectly honest with you all, I don't blame Vanilla Ice for anything, in fact, I believe he was an inspiration for many white rappers coming up. Before you get the pitchforks, the reason why I believe that, is because after all the negativity he went through and the subsequent issue of race that was raised, I think many white rappers were inspired to move AWAY from that kind of somewhat corny image he had developed before he retired from rap music.

It acts as a driving force for some people, moving out of another's shadow or reputation. Imagine Eminem right before he signed on with Dr. Dre. You can probably imagine that at some point, the thought "I hope they don't write me off as just another Vanilla Ice" was running through his head, and that acted as a driving force for him to prove to the world that white rappers CAN rap.

""they were very reminisce of Biggie and Pac's diss tracks. Why"

Biggie Never really dissed 2 Pac that beef was All Pac, do your research!! Mobb Deep and Chino XL on the other hand did and by the way Chino did a freestyle on Pac and in my opinion a very, very under rated diss track"

Yes, I'll give you that one, although I mainly used it as an umbrella term, given they were the poster boys for their respective Coasts. Plus, the names just flow off the tongue.

Chino is vicious and I just wish he were able to get his name out more often than every few years. I'm not saying he should go on a Wayne style assault and bombard the mixtape game, but a mixtape appearance or two here, a street buzz single there wouldn't be unappreciated. I never did get around to listening to Something Sacred which was a collaboration effort between him and producer Playalitical, but now that I've remembered, I'll pop it on the New Year's Resolution list, as it came out in January last year.

"Has there been an important hip-hop release this year? Rap sucks right now remember I used to buy about 3 to 4 albums a month now the newest albums i have are cube's Raw Footage, Game LAX, Nas n*gger, and Kutt Calhoun's feature presentation, which ever came out last is the newest" - Ramirez

Joe Budden released Padded Room, but if you're not feeling Budden, you would probably debate the importance of it. Although it was nice to see an album from him finally get released. I did thoroughly enjoy RZA's Afro Samurai: Resurrection soundtrack too, but other than these two, there hasn't been a high profile HIP-HOP album nope. In fact, so far in 2009, the year has gone to R&B for more notable releases, and even then, most of these have effectively flown under my radar until just last week. Ryan Leslie released a self-titled album in February and The-Dream and J. Holiday released their second albums yesterday. I listened to Dream's album last night and was extremely disappointed, as I liked his first album. I found that many of the songs just weren't inspiring, and the last track, a bonus track, should never have seen the light of day. Let me give you a hint as to why: "Let Me See The Booty Ft. Lil Jon"

Trust me, it sounds as bad as it looks.

"Ramirez,

Yes there is one HUGE album coming out in 2009 and it's...

Lil Wayne's, The Rebirth!
Wait that album was shelved cause it sucked...

I meant LupE.N.D.!!!!

That's right hype it from now on. Lupe Fiasco's first disc from LupE.N.D. June 2009.

Also Eminem and Dr. Dre seem to be pretty important but unreliable. I won't believe a release until I see it in stores" - Guest#9469

I'm confident we'll get Relapse before June, just because he's now promised us Relapse 2 as he claims that he and Dre recorded dozens of songs for the first album, then just got into a zone and kept going, hence a second album on the way.

Now I CAN actually believe that, because Dre and Eminem have personal history together, and an extremely good chemistry in the studio as well. It wouldn't surprise me in the least that they started recording at say, lunchtime, then looked up and realized it was 4 in the morning the next day.

I don't really know why they wanted to push Relapse back though, given "Crack A Bottle" just cracked (ha…pun) a couple of records a few weeks back in terms of downloads. I don't know, I'm not in the business as such, but you'd assume that with that kind of reception, you wouldn't want to push the album TOO far back as people become indifferent to it. Plus, we don't like seeing a single on an album that came out months and months earlier.

The Rebirth could have been good. COULD have been. I mean, Wayne's had rock samples in some of his tracks, and a couple of tracks on Tha Carter II had a guitar backing and sounded alright. Nothing outstanding, but certainly nothing awful. I never did hear "Prom Queen" though; the name of the track just makes it sound horrible.

"Hey Patrick, good job as usual. Just to let you know, I've heard a lot of new tracks from Mims recently and they are unimpressive. The beats in particular are terrible." - Weng Yu

There's a degree of relief here that I probably won't have to suffer through more MIMS tracks then, although I'll be bound to download them, given I'm the ‘hip-hop' go-to guy in my group of friends. If someone doesn't know the name of a song, they usually call me up and hold their mobile to the speaker and I work out what it is for them. Then I usually end up sending it to them online too. I'm just amazed that he was able to secure a Biggie sample for one of his singles, although that possibly says something more about Diddy's willingness to whore out the Biggie name/brand, than MIMS' ability to get a high profile sample.

"I agree with you that Joe Budden isn't gonna do big commercially, and that's mostly because he doesn't have a gimmick. As you said, he puts it out there honest and raw and just lets you take it as you will. On one track, he even said sometimes he just needs a hug. That ain't gangsta so nobody trying to think like that. I do have a possible remedy though. I turned on BET recently and every video they played had someone with do rags on posturing talking about their boys is the hardest. Maybe if Joe did some of that? *sigh*

Those lame asses are the ones that need hugs. Just my opinion though." - RED

Hahaha ah I can just picture a group of us forming a "Hug A Rapper Coalition" or something like that, and going from video shoots to studios giving the ahem, ‘hardest' rappers a hug. Although it may take a couple of us to get around Rick Ross, who will almost certainly need a hug, as Deeper Than Rap is going to fall way, way, way short of the 12 million he's hoping for in terms of sales.

Honestly though, for anyone who's been in a situation where they've had to spill the truth, or just say it like it is regardless of how much it may hurt themselves, that's MUCH harder to do than making up some fake BS. I'm looking forward to listening to Halfway House. I've actually grown a bit on the beats on Padded Room, once you've listened to them a couple of times, they've got their own sort of…charm I guess you could call it, although it couldn't hurt on his next album (just don't take six years to do it…) to get a couple of slightly better known names though. I'm not asking for Timbo beats, or a Dre addition, but hey, Needlz ("Piggy Bank") does some good work with a lot of underground guys and with his Royce affiliation, he could even snag a Premier beat.

Maybe Budden could market his own line of do-rags. Call them Joe-Rags or something equally lame which will get him a marketing deal. Then again, if life was more like the WWE, he could start marketing T-shirts on it with some random phrase on it and pull some money in on the side.

"You gotta love Ross though. He doesn't take this mess serious and he knows nobody buys into his lies. I like him because he's funny and good at telling stories he didn't live...and he knows it. Touché sir." - Travis

I don't mind rappers rapping about whatever they feel comfortable with, it just becomes a problem when they try and convince us they live that life. In the end, it's all going to come out that you didn't live that life, or some part of it is fabricated. Just as we can appreciate an actor for a job well done in a movie, we can appreciate a rapper making good music if they use their creativity and wordplay to paint a vivid picture. When you start claiming this and that though, it just becomes an issue for YOU in the end.

I like Ross' voice though, I think he was blessed with one of the most distinct voices in rap for a long time, and he can sound legitimately scary when he tries to, he just needs to find some better material to work with.

"Anyone notice how that pic of Chris Brown makes him look like the before video of LL Cool J on the old spice commercial?" - Guest#3899

I definitely agree with you. Check that tagline, sounds like something Cam'Ron would say. Hey, Cam's been available for anything for the last, oh three years or so, why couldn't they have gotten him?

"K'naan album is pretty good. The biggest negative is Mos Def (surprising I know) on the song America.

Detox to come out this decade? Hell naw its gonna be a posthumous album at this rate.

Speaking of which what's up with every album being pushed back. I know its normal and all but damn it seems like there hasn't been anything new since November until this or last week. Now it seems nothing is coming until May at this rate.

And is there any news on Lupe's album. God I hope its still coming out in June. I like Em but don't really relate to shit he raps about but I'm a weirdo like Lupe who likes the fantasy lyricism that ends up making sense in a general sense. Fanboy I know, but what cha gonna do" - Guest#0838

I'm a little disappointed in Mos Def as of late. True Magic was…strange, there's no other way to describe it, and while some of the tracks were excellent, the majority were unbalanced.

I have to find a new running mate for Detox since Chinese Democracy actually got released and that joke no longer works.

You're right about the albums too. December was pretty quiet with just Common's Universal Mind Control, whereas November at least saw T-Pain and Kanye get a release date. So far, Jay-Z, Eminem, Busta Rhymes, 50 Cent, Dr. Dre (HA!), Lil Wayne, Jadakiss and Rick Ross from memory, have been pushed back.

My opinion about pushing an album back is that in small cases, like say, a couple of weeks or even a month at the longest CAN create anticipation if the singles have been well received, and not released too far in advance of the album. If you keep pushing back because the singles aren't being well received, it's time to reevaluate the album (see: Curtis). In most cases though, people just get pissed off and download the album once it becomes available, or worse still, they don't even download the album at all because they forget about it. I'd much rather people download my album than not at all if they're inclined to do so, at least that way someone is still getting enjoyment out of my music.

I did some looking for information on Lupe's album, and I have some VERY good news, although I did get this from Wikipedia, so you can never be too sure as to just how reliable the information is. Anyway, he's changed things up a little. LupE.N.D. isn't going to be coming out in June, instead he's releasing an album called The Great American Rap Album in June, another album in December, and then a third in June 2010, with LupE.N.D. possibly following after. No word as to whether it will still be a triple disc album or not though.

So it looks like we'll possibly get an extra album out of him if LupE.N.D. sees the light of day. June 2010 seems a long, long way away though.

I'm interested to see if his side project with Pharrell and Kanye, Child Rebel Soldier ever comes to fruition. I don't mind Pharrell in small measured doses, and I love Kanye's production, combined with Lupe's uncanny writing ability, should be a formula for success, if they can ever schedule time to work together on more than just a remix track. Here's hoping!

The Rant

The Main Event – Nate Dogg Vs. T-Pain

"Ughh yea the only difference between Nate Dogg and T-Pain is Nate Dogg had 1 #1 Billboard song in 10 years and T-Pain had 17 #1's in 2 years. Big difference. How can you even compare" - yoo

I have absolutely no idea where you got 17 from. I mean, if you count Number 1s on The US R&B charts, you get 12 according to Wikipedia. Also yoo, as we'll get to in a bit, there's a significant difference in their styles and the age they came out in.

"Let me show "yoo" the difference.

T-Pain has been on 4 #1 Singles, 8 #1 Albums, and 4 platinum selling albums (the highest was 3x plat.)

Nate Dogg has been on 6 #1 Singles, 19 #1 Albums, and 31 Platinum selling Albums (with 5 9x plat.) and that is just what I was able to find

Nate Dogg sings, T-Pain uses a Talk box

Nate is more talented in his current condition than T-Pain will ever be.

Nate is to the hook what Rakim is to rapping" - Ramirez

I'm still a little confused in regards to the Number 1 singles you've quoted Ramirez, although I don't doubt them because I'm pretty sure your research is solid. The Albums numbers don't surprise me at all though, especially as Nate Dogg was on 2Pac's Greatest Hits and All Eyez On Me, both of which went 9x Platinum.

"Also Nate Dogg did songs with 2Pac, Dr. Dre, etc. T-Pain does songs with Flo-Rida, Lil Wayne, Chris Brown,???

Need I say more? G that's really a tough one" - Ramirez

You're selling Nate Dogg short hahaha! He's also done work with some of the greatest names to come out of the West Coast including Snoop, Xzibit, Warren G (admit it, some of you bumped "Regulate" back in the day…I still do) and E-40 (although I still don't like him, I can't deny the impact he's had in the West Coast). Not to mention Westside Connection, The Dogg Pound, DJ Quik and The D.O.C.

Around the rest of the US though, he's worked with Mos Def, Pharoahe Monch, Ludacris, 50 Cent, Eminem, Mobb Deep, Mariah Carey and Jermaine Dupri. You've got an enormous collection of names there, yes most of the artists aren't as big as they once were, but when we look at T-Pain…

T-Pain's worked with Bow Wow, Plies, Mr. 'We The Best' ‘We Global', Rick Ross, Kanye West, Akon, R. Kelly, Mariah Carey, Ludacris, E-40, Lil Mama, Mike Jones…and so the list goes on. Now, most of these names are in the NOW, they haven't been around for more than three or four years in some cases and they've come in during a period of rap where the key to success is ridiculous dance or catchphrase, backed up by a basic hook that drunk girls can sing along to in the clubs.

"Ramirez let me explain to you because you seem to have no clue..

T-Pain has been on 17 #1 songs on Billboard/Hip Hop Charts buddy. Nate Dogg only had one which was 21 Questions. Which he didn't even write. Half of Nate Dogg's hooks I bet you didn't know this he didn't even write himself. T-Pain not only writes it himself but he also produced them. Yes actually made the beat. Nate Dogg cant even play a piano. So you're saying just cause the guy was on songs with 2Pac and Dr. Dre which the ones he was on he didn't even write makes him more talented then T-Pain???? Just cause you like his voice. Huh???

And its a different era 2Pac is dead and Dre is irrelevant right now. What are you smoking?

T-Pain sings way better then Nate Dogg. Listen to "Fly Away" on his first album and "Right hand" on epiphany and keep going on Thr33 Ringz. He wrote "Low" for Flo-Rida and he didn't use Auto-tune on that. It's not a voice box it's Auto-tune big difference. He produced every song on his album. The guy is way more musical then Nate Dogg. All Nate Dogg did was sing hooks he didn't even write them. That doesn't take any talent at all

Pain can sing but he just uses Auto tune cause when he first came out he wanted to sound different then everyone. and he did. It had nothing to do with singing. Cause I've seen him live and he can reallyyyyy sing. It's not his fault that everyone is taking his style now and making him look bad. No one does it better then him.

You can't compare album sales it was a different era of music. Albums don't sell like back in the days anymore so that point is stupid. T-Pain is way more talented buddy when talking about creativity and he does everything himself. He's a genius" - yoo

Well from the top, I don't know where you got that he doesn't write his own hooks, I'd be interested to see the source you got that from. Secondly, he doesn't produce every song he sings on. He didn't produce "Low", "Goodlife", or more recently, "Go Hard" or "Blame It" from Jamie Foxx's new album.

Also, just because you can produce songs you sing on, doesn't necessarily mean you're doing a good job of either. Case in point, Soulja Boy produced a large portion of his albums, and they both got 3.0/10 from me in the reviews I wrote for the site. The problem I had for Thr33 Ringz was that the production was very bland. I enjoyed the album, and I think had he gone to outside producers, it would have been a pretty decent album, but as it was, he relied on his own production, and the album suffered as a result. That's just my opinion though.

Even if we assume he didn't write some of his hooks, why is it that people STILL know the words from Nate Dogg's hooks and verses from 1994? I still know his verse from "Bitch Please", "The Next Episode" (that's an iconic one right there), "Lay Low" and "Area Codes" (which is legendary in itself). Can people remember T-Pain hooks once the next ‘big' single or club anthem comes out? Yeah he's done some good hooks, but for every good one, there's about five or six terrible ones. "Kiss, Kiss"…right?

Also, saying that if all you do is sing, and you don't write the words yourself doesn't take talent, then what is singing? Opera singers don't write their own lyrics (most of the time anyway), but tell an opera singer they don't have talent, and you'll find yourself temporarily deaf from the aural blast. It takes talent to SING, because even if the words aren't your own, you can still make the song yours by HOW you sing it.

I'll give you that Pain can sing. The tracks you mentioned from his first two albums were pretty good, "Right Hand" was the highlight for me on Epiphany (check my New Year's Resolution sometime last year where I listened to it if you don't believe me). However, he does this too far and few in between to actually make us accept him as a SINGER. "Low" wasn't singing, that was rapping. Regardless of whether it's auto-tune, voicebox or vocoder, fact of the matter is, it isn't 100% him.

Finally, the point you made about album sales applies to singles to. Back when albums were SELLING, it's because artists were putting effort into their WHOLE album. Every track was crafted in a way that showed effort and pride in their work. There was diversity in terms of lyrical content, and people chose producers or guest artists based on their relationship with them, not by who was hot at the time.

Fast-forward to today, and you have artists you consistently release ‘hot' singles, but can't sell an album to save their lives or careers rather. Case in point, "Crank That" sold over a million singles through both downloads and physical purchases in a matter of weeks. The album? Well, it took almost a whole year to go Platinum. Likewise, "Low" broke records for how fast and how many copies were sold. That album is yet to go Gold in the United States.

What I'm trying to say is that while album sales certainly aren't what they used to be, the singles game is drastically different from what it used to be. Imagine if the same marketing techniques being used now were used back then. Also, the main factor that's caused such a drastic change in single sales is the option of legal internet downloading, something that wasn't available back in the mid to late 90s.

" "T-Pain has been on 17 #1 songs on Billboard/Hip Hop Charts buddy."

Good for him. It's just like the KRS-One/Nelly beef just cause Nelly is more commercial he is some how considered better

"Albums don't sell like back in the days anymore so that point is stupid"

Yeah and singles sell more now then they did back then too so those 17 are a stupid point too. Also T-Pain only produced 6 of those 17

"No one does it better then him"

Apparently you never heard of Roger Troutman

Again Nate is to the hook what Rakim is to rapping...but you probably don't know who that is do you?

…Lauren Hill is a genius. Dr. Dre is a genius; Quincy Jones is a Genius...but T-Pain Really? Just more proof that HIP-HOP IS DEAD" - Ramirez

Again, Ramirez you make some excellent points, and had I read the comment again before I wrote the above few paragraphs, I could have saved myself doubling up a little.

Sales really don't mean anything, and SHOULDN'T mean anything when it comes to debates. When it DOES matter, is when you see your favorite artist selling 200k or so in their first week of sales. You're happy for them that they're seeing success, particularly if they've had troubles in the past.

Jamie Foxx uses the auto-tune on Intuition and combined with Foxx's natural singing ability, something T-Pain rarely decides to showcase, so we can't make a call as to whether it's a one-off or can maintain it for a whole album yet, made the auto-tune something you could listen to comfortably. Roger Troutman certainly has a legacy and if you scroll down to that section, you can see some testimony's from hip-hop artists, as well as T-Pain himself as to his influence.

I can't in good faith call him a genius either. If T-Pain was the first artist to ever use auto-tune, then yeah, maybe we could call him a genius for implementing a new style of music, but he wasn't, it's been around since 1998 when CHER of all people used it for a distortion affect.

"To yoo, the shit is called longevity my friend, Nate has been around for almost 20 years my friend, let's see where T-Pain is in that time span, one thing is certain, if he still is around in 20 years the only thing he will be doing is still being ugly as fuck. If album sales don't matter, neither do number 1's.

As far as the whole auto-tune deal, sound different you say? Well 20 years ago Roger Troutman started that shit, hell who hasn't at least heard "California Love"? So now Nate Dogg can't actually sing huh? I would recommend you check out the Up in Smoke Tour, available on DVD for any doubters.

2Pac and Dr Dre irrelevant huh? Gee, I see people bitching up a storm for Detox to drop, I wonder how many people are counting the days for a new T-Pain album? You know T-Pain seems to follow a little trend that has been going on, do yourself a favor and Google Lil Jon." - Kurruption

Ok, I laughed pretty hard at that first bit.

The main point I was trying to make last week, is that regardless of whether you think Nate Dogg is better than T-Pain or not, fact of the matter is, in hip-hop, he was the most iconic and high profile artist to make a career based on hook singing alone, he was the PIONEER of the art. Sure he had his own albums, but they were never as successful as his hook work was.

The bottom line is that Nate Dogg has been around for 17 years in the rap game, whereas T-Pain is only entering his fifth year. To be honest, I like some of T-Pain's music, and there are some Nate Dogg tracks I don't like that much, but when it comes down to it, Nate Dogg has three times the number of years experience that T-Pain does, as well as a more significant catalog of music to represent him.

While people are still quoting "Next Episode" or "Area Codes", how many people are going to quote "Low" or "Kiss, Kiss" in as many years time? How many people will WANT to is a better question.

There we have it folks, the battle of Nate Dogg Vs. T-Pain has been decided! I'm pretty sure that Nate Dogg has won here on all fronts except for commercial recognition (number of Number 1 singles area), but if you feel that T-Pain has something to offer than we haven't covered here, make sure your voice is heard!

Before We Go…

Well that was an exceptionally long piece on Nate Dogg and T-Pain, I was tempted to throw in Akon's name and make it a Triple Threat match…but opinion's on Akon are much harder to match.

If I had to though, I'd say that if ANYBODY is going to match Nate Dogg's recognition and ability and STILL be talked about years from now, it would be Akon. He doesn't use any extra devices to help him sing, CAN in fact sing quite well, and has been known to make a hook that's more than your average four bar club hook.

With that in mind, next week the return of all the regular features, with New Year's Resolution calls on 88-Keys' Death Of Adam and Q-Tip's The Renaissance albums.

Catch you tomorrow!