The Rise of Atheism Part II
Posted by Joe Rivett on 03.29.2009
Part Two will discuss why people are increasingly not believing in God anymore…
According to the latest surveys, the fastest growing religion is NONE. In my last column, I explained why the Catholic Church is losing its popularity and sway while explaining my personal experience. But this column is titled the Rise of Atheism. So why is atheism on the rise?
In order to determine why atheism is on the rise, we have to explore what the purpose of religion is. The purpose of religion is to explain the unexplainable. Due to the advances of science, much of the unknown is now known.
In order to have religion, you have to possess faith. Faith is the belief in something without having actual evidence. For instance, unless you see or talk to God, you need faith to believe in the man upstairs. The problem with faith is that it goes against logic. If someone was to plead not guilty and their only excuse was to have faith in them, we would throw that person in jail. However, when someone says to believe in a supernatural God that you can't see or talk too, that is acceptable? Faith is what caused the holocaust. People had an irrational belief that everything Hitler said about the Jews was divine. As human beings continue to increase intelligence, they are going to demand evidence to shape their beliefs.
So in Genesis, God creates earth before anything else but science tells us that the sun came before earth. Plants are made on the third day before there was a sun to drive their photosynthetic processes. It gets more ridiculous where in Revelations there are four angels at the corners of the earth, so I guess the earth is flat! I'll stop here.
I just cited three instances where Elementary school children should know that these bible quotes make no sense. All of the sudden, the bible goes from the word of God, (Conservatives) fallible filled with parables and metaphors (Liberals) to bullshit (Atheists)
Here is an anonymous quote to explain why Atheism isn't a crazy concept:
The difference between a Christian and a strong Atheist is that a Christian rejects the existence of a few thousand Gods and Goddesses who have been devoutly worshiped and sacrificed to down through the ages. The Atheist merely rejects one more deity: the God of Christianity.
Clearly atheism is on the rise because human beings are smarter. I picked on the Bible because most readers can identify with it but many religious texts go against standard modern science. Now I still believe in a supernatural creator, however, based on the fallibility of religious texts, I check NONE on the surveys for religion. As humans become more intelligent, Atheism will only continue to grow. I guess that is bad news for the Republican Party in the long term.
Part III will examine more on the political impacts of Atheism
No, part three should be you explaining why you still believe in there being a "Supernatural Creator." We're all more intelligent in this age, huh? Most pretentious/wannabe Christopher Hitchens claptrap I've read so far this year ...
Posted By: Mike (Guest) on March 29, 2009 at 12:44 AM
i refuse to believe in a book that was written by A MAN 2000 years ago. people who argue with me about my beliefs, i always ask them this to make my point.
"if you are hit by a car, what do you do? are you are call 911 and try to get to a hospital ASAP and let modern medicine and technology save you or are you just going to pray and let God take care of you?"
Posted By: rey (Guest) on March 29, 2009 at 02:44 AM
Let's clarify a few things.
Faith is NOT the belief in something you have no proof for.
Faith IS belief in something not seen.
Faith in a biblical God is NOT unreasonable - in fact, an unbiased view of the bible reveals that there is much evidence FOR faith in God.
Science tells us the sun came before the earth.
Science doesn't have any "evidence" of this - in fact, the "evidence" that "science" touts is based as much on faith as "creation/science".
You speak of Photosynthesis - as if God himself could not sutain life that he created. And if you don't understand the poetic idea of "four corners of the earth", then you reall don't understand "The Princess Bride"
The quote you give is an interesting one, however, let's look at it more closely.
To be an athiest, you must have a belief that you are the center of the universe - that there is no room for anything unknown - because you know for certain that God does not exist. Either that, or you believe that God does not exist - which is faith in something unseen. So, an athiest has a closed mind to possibilities, while a person who believes in God does not.
Fallibility of religious texts?
The bible is considered one of the most infalliable of texts, if you look at the original language, when the texts were written, the accuracy from text to text...
In fact, most scholors, ie over 80 percent, will tell you that the bible is the most well supported ancient piece of literature that the exists.
You see, just because someone states NONE - it doesn't make them an athiest - it means they don't necessarily ascribe to one particular religion.
By the way, thank you for attempting to bring such difficult subjects up in a public forum. Too many people are afriad of such things, or shy away from it. You have guts.
Posted By: Stephen (Guest) on March 29, 2009 at 04:34 AM
It's dubious to claim that atheism grows when people become smarter. Atheism is as unproven as any other religion.
Yeah, there are points in the Bible that clearly aren't scientifically accurate. That would be devastating news if one required religious texts to be scientifically accurate. In my opinion though the Bible is not even claiming to be scientifically accurate at all.
The specific examples you quoted are from two books which are generally considered to be highly symbolic.
Genesis is a poem which was written to describe the nature of creation (being a gift from God), people (being created together by God) and sin (which happens when people try to gain ownership over good and evil and cut themselves off from God).
As for Revelation (no s), it's a metaphorical type of Jewish writing called apocalyptic. It uses fantastic imagery to encourage persecuted Christians to continue to resist Roman attempts to crush their religion.
So in sum, looking at the context of these documents, and their purpose, it seems absurd to expect scientific accuracy. This is akin to rating the writings of Shakespeare according to how accurate their geography is.
You yourself said that you believe in a supernatural creator.That is itself a leap of faith. Aren't you as guilty as Christians when it comes to making leaps of faith, given that you cannot prove that? Quite chilling if you believe that faith caused the holocaust.
I would suggest that there isn't much more of a leap of faith to believe that your own 'supernatural creator' is the God described in the Bible.
Having said that, I don't believe my remarks will sway you (or any athiests that read them). Religion is a highly personal thing and is largely experiential. In your case, you had a bad experience with the Catholic church. I'm sorry that that was the case.
Posted By: Ingwa (Guest) on March 29, 2009 at 07:07 AM
As a Lutheran pastor, I do not and cannot agree with the charge that being athiest makes someone "smarter."
I understand science and find myself intrigued by it. When we find out how things work scientifically, often it just brings about more questions we then have to solve. This process happens over and over again, more questions being wrought from the answers that were found.
The real issue, as far as I am concerned, has to do with another trend, and that is the worship of the self. We have come to believe as a society that we are just fine the way we are. We have been sold the message that it is acceptable, and really, it is desired to be be given over to our self-entitlement.
I have athiest friends, most of whom have had terrible experiences with a number of churches, from Roman Catholic to Evangelical to my own denomination. I do not find them any more or less intelligent than myself, but I do see many of them searching. For what? I don't know. I'd like to think it's for something greater than themselves.
Here's the last thing I want to say on the matter- regardless of one's religious beliefs, or lack thereof, we all have got to get to some sort of peaceful coexistence. We have to stop ripping each other apart based on one's beliefs. That gets us nowhere.
Posted By: Brian (Guest) on March 29, 2009 at 07:23 AM
You are truly a fool. Most of the "scientific proof" is actually theory. Take evolution for example. It cannot be proven because there has been NO missing link found in ANY species. Also, no one has actually WITNESSED it.
However, THOUSANDS of people witnessed Christ's ascension to Heaven. The Bible has been proven historically, mathematically, bibliographically, and scientifically accurate. It has passed the secular Internal and External tests. The reason why people aren't believing in God anymore has nothing to do with so-called "science"... It has more to do with the lack of values and morals thanks to our current culture, in which sex, drugs, and all immorality are portrayed as positives.
Oh, and by the way, check out The Obama Deception at this link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eAaQNACwaLw
Posted By: Spyke (Guest) on March 29, 2009 at 09:36 AM
wrong. first of all, people have access to more information now than ever before, but we are by no means smarter than our ancestors. i recently just read a nice quote by isaac assimov in regards to this. essentially calling it foolish to think otherwise.
in fact, it seems like to me, too many of us are falling into the same trap that you, the author, are.
Just because we have nearly unlimited access to information, we feel that our opinion is on par with that of an expert. it's very easy to find content in the bible that is contradictory to modern thought. and it's even easier to be put off by the politics of religion. but, as far as i am concerned, the fundamentals of Christianity are sound. The bible is the direction, not the goal itself.
One more thing you got wrong. why are more and more people becoming atheist? laziness, in general. it's a lot easier to live a life without the restrictions of a religion. don't get me wrong, some people are capable of being both successful AND righteous without religion. but most of us are not.
Posted By: dkmo (Guest) on March 29, 2009 at 11:07 AM
Even if there were a super natural creator, it should be held responsible for all the "evil" unleashed around us.
Posted By: Trent (Guest) on March 29, 2009 at 11:13 AM
The purpose of magic is to feed and clothe the magician. The magic is the device, not the purpose. It is also with religion. Religion is first and foremost a self-serving mindset that serves the religionian to the end of controlling people for his own purposes, altruistic or otherwise. The explanation of the unexplainable is the technique, not the purpose.
- Guest Jim
Posted By: guest (Guest) on March 29, 2009 at 11:16 AM
"The real issue, as far as I am concerned, has to do with another trend, and that is the worship of the self. We have come to believe as a society that we are just fine the way we are. We have been sold the message that it is acceptable, and really, it is desired to be be given over to our self-entitlement."
agreed. this is the reason for the rise in atheism. btw, this reads more like the thinking of a monk than that of a pastor. i am interested to know if you derived this way of thinking from being familiar with eastern religions or not? if not, wow, it's definitely worth your while to look into them more.
anyway, you put it much better than i did. i'd actually like to go back and edit it a bit now. what i was getting at, is that it requires a lot less effort and willpower to be an atheist, than practice religion. but now, i think that's just a manifestation of this greater problem.
Posted By: dkmo (Guest) on March 29, 2009 at 12:40 PM
I find it amazing that those defending religion still get it wrong. They don't understand what a theory is, they call atheism a religion, they talk out their a$$ about knowing the sun didn't come before the earth. It's embarrassing to think this kind of reasoning is still firmly held. The authors main point seems to be that the more knowledge we gain the fewer places God can hide in our "gaps" of knowledge. Sadly there are an infinite number of gaps so beating down irrational thought is still a formidable task.
Posted By: Guest (Guest) on March 29, 2009 at 12:55 PM
YOu will BURN for writing such an article.
It is the lack of morals that is bringing society down. Turn your faith back to your lord and savior and you will have eternal life. The only way to stop the wars and moral decay is to go back to the old ways.
When people were decent and not the sex/violence filled animals they are today
Posted By: hhhh (Guest) on March 29, 2009 at 01:12 PM
If you have trouble understanding my Thesis, Guest/Guest is spot on.
Posted By: Joe Rivett (Registered) on March 29, 2009 at 02:53 PM
I have also posted this on yahoo!answers a few years ago. This is my answer to how science and religion can both say the same thing, just in slightly different ways...
Before the big bang, you could think of the universe of a massive (in terms of the amount of mass it contained) "Black hole" Because everything was so compact that not even light escaped. This is way over-simplifying, of course. How long was it this way? forever, and never, because time also was all wrapped up in this massive, yet non dimensive, "universe." Then, for some unknown reason, everything exploded outward in all directions. Now, the fastest moving thing in the universe, as far as we know, is light, which would spread out from this explosion ahead of everything else...
So, what's my point?
Well, Let's say you built something huge, a skyscraper or a pyramid, or whatever. Something that took years to build. And let's also say that you documented every moment of the building of it. You wouldn't document it from the inside of the building, you'd document it from some arbitrary vantage point that allowed you to see the construction. Let's further say that you wanted to show someone how it got built. Would you show them the years of footage, or would you condense it, do a little time lapse? Of course you'd show it as a time lapse.
Now, what would this documentation look like if someone were shown the "construction" or "birth" of the universe, AKA the Big Bang? Well, the viewer would most likely believe that their vantage point was somewhere on earth, however, they would not be able to see anything, as there would be no light of any kind. So everything would appear shapeless, and infinite, because there would be no reference points to show how large or small space was.
Then, the BANG!!! (only it wouldn't be sound, only light) And everything would be lit up....
And over billions of years, changes in the universe would take place, the planet earth would take shape, its seas, landmasses and atmosphere would form, life would take hold and then thrive, and mankind would eventually enter the picture. Each of these stages would have its own significance in the formation of planet earth.
Now, if you were shown this, and wrote it out for all of mankind to read, and were raised in a society that was faith- instead of science-based, it would probably read something like this....
In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth, and the earth was void, and without form, and Darkness was upon the face of the deep.
Seem familiar? And the 6 days of creation were like parts of a condensed "time lapse miniseries documentary" similar to what the aforementioned pyrimid buider would have shown.
At least that's MY take on it
Posted By: Ben S (Guest) on March 29, 2009 at 02:58 PM
If you have trouble understanding my Thesis, Guest/Guest is spot on.
Posted By: Joe Rivett (Registered) on March 29, 2009 at 02:53 PM
Just because the vast majority of commenters disagree with your article doesn't mean they don't understand your thesis. Just another wanna-be pretentious prick.
Posted By: Guest#5344 (Guest) on March 29, 2009 at 03:08 PM
I will point out a few comments on this:
1. God did not create the earth first, he created light. He did create the earth before the sun though.
2. Science cannot prove that the sun was before the Earth because no one saw it.
3. Someone else mentioned also that faith refers to the unseen, not irrational. This would apply to the sun before the earth scientific theory its faith too.
4. Science is not designed to prove anything about the past. In fact, it isn't repeateable so it cannot be proven. No one can prove anything about the beginning of time beyond a doubt. Thats why its all faith.
5. Your holocaust example is a cheap shot and you know it. Of course faith can be used for nefarious means.
6. Your example about a flat earth is a straw man. Revelation is clearly figurative. Also, some scriptures seem to show knowledge of a round earth, specifically Isaiah 40:22.
7. There are examples of accurate scientific ideas before science proved them - Psalm 8:8, Job 36:27-28, Job 26:7 to name a few.
8. Many people think that science is the height of knowledge, even to the point that people believe that science knows everything. It does not as illustrated by the whole flat earth idea in the first place. At one time that was science. Science is learning more and more and getting more accurate, no doubt. But science does not have a monopoly on knowledge, just current human knowledge.
9. Your quote on atheism is true. Instead of believing in all gods, Christianity believes in one God. Atheists believe in no God. That's just the definitions of the words.
I also respect your brave story and I agreed with a lot of your comments on the Catholic Church losing their integrity. A lot of the reason for that is because the Catholic Church is very man focused and is resistent to science. A Bible believer should welcome science and discuss it openly. If you believe in a creator, how do you reconcile that with science I wonder?
Posted By: Christian (Guest) on March 29, 2009 at 03:09 PM
Firstly, I agree with the whole article.
I do feel, however, that you could have done a little more to not completely piss off the other side, and only in one way. I'm an atheist, but I do know many, many Christians that don't take the Bible literally. The four corners thing, the God created the universe in 7 days, are all taken as loose metaphors by a lot of Christians. Maybe just one sentence to point out that not every religious person takes every sentence as the Word and as complete literal fact.
Although, watching Religulous, it does remind me how that group seems to be the narrowing minority...
Posted By: James (Registered) (Guest) on March 29, 2009 at 03:25 PM
Oh man, you hear that Joe? You're going to burn.
My general belief on religion, and it's something I'm about to get a PhD in, is that it's a shame the whole thing isn't done better.
And yet I would argue that that doesn't mean religion's WRONG, you know?
Just because people can claim it's their christianity that makes them intolerant bigots doesn't mean christianity's wrong.
God didn't say hate gays, for example. Christians did. And not all Christians either. So while that's an argument against how some people BEHAVE and USE their religion, it's not actually an argument against God's existence or any of the proposed truths in any of the books.
It's sort of like saying because people drive like crap, no one ever invented the car.
Like the ladies say, it's not what you got, it's how you use it...
Posted By: Andrew Tobolowsky (Registered) on March 29, 2009 at 03:36 PM
if god created everything, then what created god?
Posted By: bullshit (Guest) on March 29, 2009 at 04:16 PM
"8. Many people think that science is the height of knowledge, even to the point that people believe that science knows everything. It does not as illustrated by the whole flat earth idea in the first place. At one time that was science. Science is learning more and more and getting more accurate, no doubt. But science does not have a monopoly on knowledge, just current human knowledge."
Science is not a body of knowledge. Science is a process by which we evaluate ideas and prove/disprove them. Christianity does not hold up to scientific tests.
Oh and the idea that the Earth came before the sun is laughable. Even more laughable is the idea that light came before the sun. I'm not going to argue about how stupid these ideas are because its pretty self evident.
And (to another poster) evolution can be observed. Evolution is the change in the gene pool of over a period of time. You see it every day. If you want a clearer view study bacteria which evolve. Evolution is a fact of life. Don't confuse evolution with "Darwin's theory of evolution". Evolution is a fact. Darwin's theory is a theory which attempts to explain that fact.
And aetheists are not close minded. We just like evidence. If there was some sort of evidence for the God/Jesus' existence I'd believe in it. As it stands there is evidence to support the falsehood of the Bible so I believe that.
So I invite anyone to show evidence to support Biblical claims. If you can show me real concrete evidence I'll gladly be a believer.
Posted By: Justin (Guest) on March 29, 2009 at 04:16 PM
Seen enough in this world to know that God does indeed exist. Hope one day you all do as well.
Posted By: Matt (Guest) on March 29, 2009 at 04:41 PM
Joe, atheism isn't on the rise because people are smarter. In fact I marvel at how dumb the average person is despite there being more eduated people than at any time in history. Atheism is on the rise for two main reasons. The first is that in general the concept of community is being lost, which leads to no shame in skipping church, as well as a sense of freedom in forming one's own beliefs. The other is that due to that disconnect from others, people are far more selfish today and don't want to be ashamed of it or threatened with damnation. Saying "people are smarter" is just a cheap way to get angry hits rather than encourage real dialogue. Religion can bring people together for a common good and inspire wonderful things. It's only when it's perverted and used to control others that it should be spoken against. When Galileo is threatened with death, or abortion clinics with bombings, or scientific research is slowed, or the pope deems himself an expert on condoms and misinforms an entire continent, that's when religion is dangerous.
It's not belief in God, but faith in men (and it's always men) who claim to know His will that's being rejected. Why does your reverend/priest/rabbi know God's will better than you? Because he says so? I believe in God but I'll find my own path in life. Better the fate of my soul be in my own hands than those of someone who stands to gain by my unquestioning devotion.
Posted By: Shockmaster (Guest) on March 29, 2009 at 04:49 PM
Doesn't the bible say things like if your children disobey you you should have them killed and that women should be slaves to men, etc etc?
Matthew 11:19
11 When men strive together one with another, and the wife of the one draweth near for to deliver her husband out of the hand of him that smiteth him, and putteth forth her hand, and taketh him by the secrets: 12 Then thou shalt cut off her hand, thine eye shall not pity her.
Posted By: Guest#2444 (Guest) on March 29, 2009 at 05:10 PM
Given the allusion to the "supernatural creator", you seem to be talking about the rise or establishment of agnostic beliefs, not atheism.
Atheism bears no exceptions for the existence of ANY God; you live, you shit, you fuck, you have a kid, you die, there's zip afterward. See George Carlin in his later years for a prime example of a guy on that kick.
What you're purporting to believe in is the rejection of organized religion on the grounds that people are fallible, and really have no idea of what exists beyond our reality. That ain't atheism. That's vague optimism, with a dash of the hopeful.
Posted By: Meirsch (Guest) on March 29, 2009 at 05:41 PM
uh, human evolution is only a theroy. evolution has been proven, but not human evolution. it has never been proven, there is no evidence of a missing link. so i would like to see this evidence for human evolution. since there is no evidence, you have faith in human evolution. something without a shread of proof. so how does that work?
Posted By: havok (Guest) on March 29, 2009 at 06:21 PM
Er, excuse me. I am an atheist and I reject the notion that I am an atheist merely as a rejection of the Christian god. I am also an atheist in terms of Zeus, Odin, Jupiter, Vishnu, Shiva, Allah, the Flying Spaghetti Montster and my mate Bob. I believe that there are far better reasons for atheism than the ones you have outlined, but I always enjoy holes being poked in the Bible. Sorry but I do.
Posted By: Pete Thorn (Guest) on March 29, 2009 at 06:30 PM
remember the episode of south park where the whole world was atheist in the year 3000 and sea otters learned to talk and use weapons? that is where lack of religion will lead you.
Posted By: Bryan Jones (Guest) on March 29, 2009 at 06:34 PM
"Every solution of a problem raises new unsolved problems; the more so the deeper the original problem and the bolder its solution. The more we learn about the world, and the deeper our learning, the more conscious, specific and articulate will be our knowledge of we do not know, our knowledge of our ignorance. For this, indeed, is the main source of our ignorance-the fact that our knowledge can be only finite, while our ignorance must necessarily be infinite.
I believe that it would be worth trying to learn somehting about the world even if in trying to do so we should merely learn that we do not know much. The state of learned ignorance might be a help in many of our trouble. It might be well for all of us to remember that, while differing widely in the various little bits we know, in our infinite ignorance, we are all equal." Popper
Posted By: AdmChesterMynutz (Guest) on March 29, 2009 at 07:08 PM
Here is a definition of evolution. Biology
a. Change in the genetic composition of a population during successive generations.
Ok so lets say you have a kid that is born with three fingers, a unique eye/hair color, unusually high IQ, or anything abnormal. He reproduces and his child has the same traits. This is evolution it just happened.
As for interspecies evolution... http://www.gate.net/~rwms/EvoEvidence.html Take a look at some of these articles. Particularly the ones which discuss the links between apes and humans such as Australopithecines homo-habillis and homo-eructus.
Posted By: Justin (Guest) on March 29, 2009 at 07:19 PM
omg Spyke that video totally converted me, very easy to believe, esp w the sinister music!
Posted By: Non-Critical Thinker (Guest) on March 29, 2009 at 07:28 PM
You get an F
Posted By: The Rev (Guest) on March 29, 2009 at 07:37 PM
to pster justin:
again, that is a theory. there is no proof of human evolution. the article just gives us a theory on evolution.
also your 1st part did not describe evolution, it described mutation. if something evolves, it as a species does so to better compinsate for its own enviornment. you just described mutation, no evolution.
Posted By: havok (Guest) on March 29, 2009 at 08:36 PM
"to pster justin:
again, that is a theory."
Only a theory? What is a scientific theory, anyway?
A scientific theory is built upon one or more hypotheses. A scientific theory is built upon evidence. BUILT is the key word here -- you don't just suddenly all willy-nilly come along and say "gee, I have this idea, I'm calling it a theory!" in science, you have to have EVIDENCE to back it up, otherwise it's just a pointless guess. Saying "gee, it's just a theory..." doesn't hold water, so unless you're going to actually understand the meaning of the word "THEORY" as it pertains to scientific theories, don't come along and say "it's just a theory" because you're taking a lot of built-up facts evidence and throwing it all out because of the usage of ONE word: "theory".
YES some theories are proven to be incorrect when more knowledge comes along (see Darwin's Theory of Evolution vs. the current theory of evolution as an example) but also keep in mind that much knowledge accepted as fact, such as gravity, are scientific theories.
Posted By: luna (Guest) on March 29, 2009 at 09:43 PM
And as for the topic on hand, I believe the rise of "no" religion (I hesitate to use the word "atheism" here) has little to do with what everyone here is saying.
It has nothing to do with a lack of morals, or an increase in general knowledge... and has a lot to do with religious leaders themselves setting bad examples and a poor media representation of religion in general. It has to do with the way religious groups present themselves in a public light, and unfortunately the loud obnoxious ultra-conservative types get the most attention. Who wants to be associated with bigotry?
The problem isn't so much religion itself as it is the perception of religion as a negative entity. And who's to blame for that? As I said earlier, the religious leaders, and the media and their endless focus on negativity.
I sincerely think religion works for some people and has a positive influence on their personal lives. You're checking "none" on your religion, but you're not an atheist. Not anymore than Thomas Jefferson, Albert Einstein, or Steven Hawking are -- certainly no more than I am. We are the pantheists, deists, the agnostics.
Do I believe in God? Well, Hawking said it the same way I would. "Yes, if by God is meant the embodiment of the laws of the universe." Take from that what you will.
Posted By: luna (Guest) on March 29, 2009 at 09:59 PM
a scientific theory is built upon substance but it is a heory none the less. there is no EVIDENCE of human evolution. there are no FACTS of human evolution. its a theory based on that other species evolve, so humans must evolve also. there is not a shread of solid evidence to show humans have evolved at all. we just assume since other species evolve, that we must evolve also. so until it is proven, belief in it is no different than belief in christianity. it has been proven their was a jesus christ. so belief in jesus christ is actually less of a leap of faith than belief in human evolution since evolution has no facts behind it. so the point is, belief in human evolution is belief none the less. all atheist who say they don't believe in something is completly wrong, they believe in evolution even without any facts behind it.
Posted By: havok (Guest) on March 29, 2009 at 10:18 PM
Thank you for making that point for me Luna. A theory is not untrue or worse than a fact. A theory, while it may not be 100% proven, has a ton of evidence to support it. If there is any credible evidence against a theory it gets thrown out.
Evolution is a fact though. I didn't describe mutation. I described evolution. When you have a random mutation and it is passed on into the gene pool it changes the gene pool. The change in the gene pool over time is evolution.
What you described is Darwin's theory that is meant to explain evolution. Darwin's theory is that certain traits are passed on because of an advantage it gives. This part IS a theory, which doesn't mean it is untrue. It means it has a lot of evidence to support it (take a look at the page I linked to again. There are alot of articles that describe such evidence. Fossil records, gene analysis, carbon dating etc.) even if it can't be "proven" 100%. There is enough evidence supporting this theory that it is irrational to hold another belief.
Unless of course you have some sort of evidence to support your theory. If you do feel free to present it. (The Bible does not count as evidence. Unless you can also prove that the Bible is true first.)
Posted By: Justin (Guest) on March 29, 2009 at 10:21 PM
The thing that bothers me most about some religious types, is that they aren't content with faith, or belief. They "KNOW" they're right. Any idea, any discussion acknowledging the fact that they don't "KNOW" is blasphemy to these people. What's so wrong with just believing?
MY belief is that religion was formed out of humanity's apparent urge to need to know where they came from and why they're here. People as a whole are not content with not knowing. Well I'm ok with saying I have no idea. And anyone who tries to convert me is just selling easy answers, in my opinion. People who have to "KNOW" are the types who are so insecure with NOT knowing, they ignore all the plot holes and garbage aspects that every religion has. Loose metaphors, sure. But anyone who takes the bible literally, to me, is a complete nutjob.
Posted By: James (Registered) (Guest) on March 29, 2009 at 10:21 PM
God is dead.
Posted By: Nietzsche's ghost (Guest) on March 29, 2009 at 10:38 PM
"Religion is the second worst invention ever, right after TV."
Posted By: Frank Zappa's ghost (Guest) on March 29, 2009 at 10:39 PM
"The Abridged Rivett Symposium on the Rise of Atheism"
Part I - I shit on Catholics...
Part II - I misrepresent both the nature of religion and the nature of faith, blame the Holocaust on faith, shit on the Bible, proclaim the intellectual superiority of Atheism, yet, strangely affirm my own stupidity by asserting my continued deism.
Part III - We now return you to your regularly scheduled program: Shitting on Republicans.
Thus shall conclude "The Abridged Rivett Symposium on the Rise of Atheism"
***************************************
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I find it disturbing that, despite all the critical comments here, noone has firmly taken issue with that doozy of a Holocaust statement.
"Faith is what caused the holocaust.[sic] People had an irrational belief that everything Hitler said about the Jews was divine."
That's a grotesquely ignorant and shallow misrepresentation of history. I guess while you were paying close attention in Biology class, you were sleeping in History. The events surrounding the Holocaust and the factors that led to it are complex, incorporating economics, anthropology, politics, psychology, and, oh let's not forget the "science" of Eugenics.
However, as you've proven before Joe, your only real interests are division and schadenfreude. Just like the structure of this little three part column, your only real goal is to set up a methodology by which you can criticize Republicans/Conservatives.
Furthermore, I see commenters in this thread being upbraided for misrepresenting science, and while this may be true, it's certainly no worse a misrepresentation than your simplistic assessment of the "purpose of religion" or the nature of Faith.
Religion has had many "purposes" throughout history. It provides a shared moral doctrine and culture, comfort and security in the face of our undeniable mortality, the offer hope and redemption to the lost and self-loathing, and a plank upon which to build a community. And just as assuredly, it has been abused for purposes dark and malignant. Reducing its purpose to simple banality as you do serves only to create a straw man soaked in gasoline that you are all to happy to set ablaze like a petulant child with a penny book of matches.
Joe, your amateurism makes Tobolowsky look like Plato.
Posted By: lol (Guest) on March 29, 2009 at 11:15 PM
Whenever debates like this arise I always ask myself the one question that always seems to help,"What would Oprah do?" .
Posted By: The G.O.D. (Guest) on March 29, 2009 at 11:20 PM
Religions werent created to explain things they were created as a control method. I have no problem with people living their lives in the way that a good christian is supposed to but I hate the fact that throughout time people have been bullied through fear of something that doesnt exist to do things that the people in charge of the religons want.
Also people in this day and age are more worried about paying bills and looking after their children than sitting in church listening to someone spout stuff to them that is so irrelevant its ridiculous.
Posted By: DaveJuk (Guest) on March 30, 2009 at 12:16 AM
Just, you know completely out of curiosity--does anyone, and I am totally not someone who makes fun of people's grammar and lack of spelling ability on a REGULAR BASIS, but--doesn't anyone who believes evolution is "just a theory" get a little nervous when they look around and see that everyone who agrees with them can't type, spell, or punctuate? Like, just a second of "hmmmm, THESE are the guys I'm siding with? I wonder if there's any significance to this fact."
No?
Posted By: Andrew Tobolowsky (Registered) on March 30, 2009 at 12:56 AM
Again I refer you to the fossil records, human embryonic development, similarity in DNA between chimps and humans etc. Check the link I sent you. There is a mountain of evidence. You're just ignoring the evidence I'm presenting.
"a scientific theory is built upon substance but it is a heory none the less. there is no EVIDENCE of human evolution. there are no FACTS of human evolution. its a theory based on that other species evolve, so humans must evolve also. there is not a shread of solid evidence to show humans have evolved at all. we just assume since other species evolve, that we must evolve also. so until it is proven, belief in it is no different than belief in christianity. it has been proven their was a jesus christ. so belief in jesus christ is actually less of a leap of faith than belief in human evolution since evolution has no facts behind it. so the point is, belief in human evolution is belief none the less. all atheist who say they don't believe in something is completly wrong, they believe in evolution even without any facts behind it.
Posted By: havok (Guest) on March 29, 2009 at 10:18 PM"
You're confusing the colloquial use of the word theory with the scientific meaning of the word theory.
In everyday use a theory is a guess or an idea. Like I have a theory that broccoli and mustard would taste awful together.
A scientific theory is a system proposed to explain a fact. It is given by a scientist along with supporting evidence. If scientists find evidence against it then it is thrown out. Any theory taken seriously by the scientific community must have evidence backing it up and no evidence against it.
Christianity has evidence against it. The impossibility of Noah's ark, geocentric model of the universe, age of the earth, timetable of creation, order of creation. Confliction with fossil records, nonsensical explanation of origin of languages, claims that rabbits chew the cud (they do not. God should know that.) Cain has a non-existent wife, misunderstanding of genetics (see Genesis 30:37).
The bible also fails to nail down the value of pi. http://www.geocities.com/paulntobin/math.html According to the Bible pi=3.0. We know that this is not true. Surely god can nail down Pi to at least 5 decimal places?
Furthermore there is no proof that Jesus existed. Assuming that Jesus was born in the year 0 he'd have died in 33 AD. The first Gospel was written circa 70 AD. So there is a 40 year gap which casts doubt on the story. Besides the only "evidence" is some guys saying "dude I saw him." Unless there is some sort of evidence that I am aware of that Jesus existed. If so show me the evidence.
Posted By: Justin (Guest) on March 30, 2009 at 01:27 AM
Oh and part of the reason that atheism is on the rise is that people are being exposed to broader ideas due to immigration, TV, and the internet. More people are exposed to atheist thinkers and many are going to agree.
Posted By: Justin (Guest) on March 30, 2009 at 01:29 AM
Does this count as a column? I mean I like the subject matter, but it's barely even explored. There are no words. Some of the comments are as long as the damn column.
Posted By: Talon (Guest) on March 30, 2009 at 01:32 AM
I am not one to question a persons beliefs. "Whatever gets you though the night", I always say.Your faith is just that. It is yours. It is not mine. I am an Atheist. You are what you are. It works for you. So, I cannot question it. However, so many people have questioned mine. Many of the questions I have gotten over the years are
1. "Why do you hate God"
2. "Why don't you believe in God? You have to. Where do you get your morals?"
3. "Are you so evil that you think he will not forgive you" No b.s. I really got that one.
4. "Are you a Muslim" again no b.s. really got it.
5. "What happened to you that you think God has forsaken you"
Let me answer all of these right now
1. I do not hate God. I cannot hate something I do not believe exists . I don't hate the Easter Bunny, the Tooth Fairy, Leprechauns or Santa. I don't hate them because I do not believe they are real.
2. I don't have to believe in God to have morals
Comics
George Carlin,Eddie Izzard,David Cross, Kathy Griffen and Adam Carolla
Business Persons
Mark Zuckerberg (Founder and CEO of Facebook), and Warren Buffett American-born investor and philanthropist
Military
Lakshmi Sahgal Activist of the Indian independence movement and Baron Douglas of Kirtleside, Marshal of the Royal Air Force distinguished British airman
Sports
Robert Smith former Minnesota Vikings running back and NFL Network football analyst and Lance Armstrong winner of the Tour de France seven consecutive times and
All are atheists. Do all of them have no morals (well Warren Buffett has none but you get the point)
3.If there is anyone on this plant that believes I'm evil (e·vil Old English Yfel and its cognates such as the German 'Übel' NOUN: The quality of being morally bad or wrong; wickedness, That which causes harm, misfortune, or destruction: a leader's power to do both good and evil, An evil force, power, or personification, Something that is a cause or source of suffering, injury, or destruction: the social evils of poverty and injustice.) Then I am truely sorry for whatever wrong I have done on to you
4. Muslims or those who follow Islam believe in God. In fact they did before Christianity was even thought of. To clear things up even more Judaism, most Asian spirituality and even Satanism have a core belief in God
5. I do not think God has forsaken me. I do not believe in god therefor It can not forsake me.I have love, blue skies, rainbows and all the joy of 10 Disney films. Even has a young child I could not swallow the stories of," the good book". I tried many times. I read it many times looked to the other faiths all I could do but in the end I do not believe in God. Trust me my life would be easier if I did. I would not have to always defined my stance on the matter.
Posted By: ray955 (Guest) on March 30, 2009 at 01:36 AM
I've had conversations like these ping-pong posts with most of my Christian friends. None of them who have yapped like spindly dogs have been able to convince me of anything. Most of their "believe or burn" rants have been nothing but basic, unchecked proselytizing, like someone discovering a pyramid scheme for the first time, and thinking it'll make them rich.
Now, in one "discussion" I had with a friend who's a total born-again--you all know the type--the one who believes that just because this worked for him, it MUST WORK FOR EVERYONE, and that it's his job to ensure everyone learns to love it, he ended the conversation one time with what he must have believed to be the "gotcha question."
He said, "Brandon, what should worry you is there are scientists who are Christians." Supposedly, because scientists are unfulfilled and still searching...for the real truth...
I could feel his smirk over the phone in the momentary silence after his "POW!"
But I had a great epiphany of a response. I told him, "No, what should worry you is that there are Christians out there that are scientists."
Posted By: Crow21 (Guest) on March 30, 2009 at 01:43 AM
This isn't the death knell for any political party. When the going gets tough both major US parties flip-flop rampantly on issues of religion, taxation, law enforcement, race, military campaigns, spending, you name it...
As long as there are gullible and under-educated people out there, there will be continued support for Big Government and Big Church. I've joked that in 100 years Christianity, Judaism, and Islam will have lost their mainstream credibility, but not to fear! The Raelians, Scientologists, and Hare Krishnas will be locked into a war for the holy land.
Posted By: Dennis (Guest) on March 30, 2009 at 03:10 AM
I find your lack of faith disturbing.
Posted By: Darth Vader (Guest) on March 30, 2009 at 06:52 AM
Everyone’s rants on here are pointless. Pointless. Pointless drivel.
Here’s what it boils down to:
Religion: I am right, there is a God, you are wrong.
Atheism: No, *I* am right, there is NO God, YOU are wrong.
Me: I don’t care, shut the fuck up and let me drink my OJ in peace.
This is why the human race (including myself) are the DUMBEST fucking species in the universe and why we should be wiped away from existence. We think we *know* so much and we have to react to “knowledge”. And based on this “knowledge” we claim some form of superiority over something else – even down to the basics of a simple idea.
I don’t care who’s God is better than who’s or whether or not God exists. I have more important shit to worry about – Like shit that’s going on TODAY.
The problem with ANY belief system is trust. Organized religion asks me to trust something I cannot see; Athiesm asks me to trust in people. Well, since we have a little thing called “human tragedy” I can’t trust either.
For example: Things are coming to a head and we are in the “end-times”. “Wars and rumors of wars” and shit – God is supposed to be infallible, righteous, but has no power to intervene on a global scale to make things better for everyone. That shouldn’t be a big deal, right? So...Where is He?
People are supposed to be “good in the end” – But we turn our backs on those that need help; and not spiritual help, but food, clothing shelter, shit like that. We kill, we rob, we rape. We’re great role models for each other.
So, I trust NEITHER. I barely trust myself, because I know that at any moment, some tragedy could come my way and I could snap and murder 37 people randomly. I don’t know my limits morally OR immorrally. That is frightening in itself.
So it doesn’t matter anyways. I am me, I don’t know shit and I try to not know. I don’t CARE to know. I will know when I die. That’s how it *should* be. But, please, continue to argue about shit that won’t affect YOU in the end. Either there is or there isn’t. It doesn’t matter what the person beside you thinks. We bleed this shit into our daily routine and allow it to affect how we treat each other.
That’s the real issue. And until we figure that shit out, nothing will change. I don’t think anything will. So I hope that N. Korea is building a nuke. I hope they send it this way. I hope we retaiiate. I hope Russia and China gets in on it. Maybe Iran and Cuba. Probably England. Once we’re blown to bits, we get our answer – and I hope everyone is fucking happy then.
Posted By: Anarchist (Guest) on March 30, 2009 at 07:20 AM
I'm with anarchist. Especially OJ is super good for your immune system.
Oh, except for the I hope we all blow the crap out of each other part.
Posted By: Andrew Tobolowsky (Registered) on March 30, 2009 at 09:48 AM
"This is why the human race (including myself) are the DUMBEST fucking species in the universe and why we should be wiped away from existence. We think we *know* so much and we have to react to “knowledge”. And based on this “knowledge” we claim some form of superiority over something else – even down to the basics of a simple idea."
actually, this kind of sounds like a really vulgar and dumb downed (no offense)interpretation of humanity according to eastern religion. you come off as bit jaded towards the politics of religion and as a result to Christianity itself... but you should realize there are other ways of thinking about religion besides that of a christian.
Posted By: dkmo (Guest) on March 30, 2009 at 09:55 AM
"YOu will BURN for writing such an article.
It is the lack of morals that is bringing society down. Turn your faith back to your lord and savior and you will have eternal life. The only way to stop the wars and moral decay is to go back to the old ways.
When people were decent and not the sex/violence filled animals they are today"
Yes I completely agree with you hhhh!
Posted By: Ayatollah Khomeini (Guest) on March 30, 2009 at 10:05 AM
Anarchist, if that's truly the crux of your belief system and not just some empty and sad internet bravado, then you're in the running for biggest chickenshit motherfucker to ever draw a breath in the history of our species.
Seriously, now. "Blahblah I hope the world ends and we all go down but in the meantime I'll stick around in the hopes that someone will read my rhetorical blithering and agree with me, not that I care because I'm just that damned evolved".
Fucking pathetic. The only thing worse than a hokey faith healer or blind eyed religionite is a paper skeptic or "anarchist" who sits around shitting, eating, fucking and sucking up oxygen with the rest of us while beating their tin gong about how overrated life is.
End yourself, or get the hell off your apricot box.
Posted By: Wedge (Guest) on March 30, 2009 at 10:42 AM
Why must I choose between science and faith?
The book of Genesis mentions what things are created on which day. What is a "day" to God? What if a "day" to God is the millions and millions of years that we consider the timeline for evolution?
I see no reason that being a Christian interferes with being a man of science. Science is an exploration of how things work. As such, being like God - who has all knowledge - is the ultimate goal for all scientists.
Is this a problem? Are we not taught to be like Jesus? If you are actively trying to be like Jesus, you should actively pursue all knowledge.
To Rey: There is a parable that your scenario reminds me of. Katrina hits, and an old woman finds herself stuck on a roof. A guy in a canoe comes by and offers to give her a hand to safety. She turns him down and says God will save her. The waters rise, and some people in a boat come by and offers her assistance. She turns them down, saying God will save her. The waters rise further, and this time a helicopter comes by to pick her up. She turns them down, saying God will save her. Eventually the house collapses and she drowns. She goes to heaven and sees God. Her immediate question is "Why didn't you save me?" He responds "Well, you turned down the canoe, boat, and helicopter that I sent... what else was I supposed to do?"
Posted By: J. Alexander Mitchell (Guest) on March 30, 2009 at 10:53 AM
It's very comical to read how many atheists and non-religious people don't know ANYTHING about The Bible. I know atheists can quote just about anything it's written in the Bible, but to say The Bible was written by ONE man 2000 years ago? Psalms alone was written by a LOT of people.
Of course, the problem is how many Christians don't know anything about the Bible either. Let's fact this: the Bible is NOT a science book, but even with that in mind, Genesis' words and most of the science credo can coexist just fine. It's in the interpretation of The Bible that both atheists and christians fall miserably.
Posted By: Ari (Guest) on March 30, 2009 at 11:21 AM
Someone please get havok a pass to a good museum. The Field Museum of Natural History in Chicago has actual skulls in a line to show the changes as humans have evolved. Not replicas, actual skulls. When you can see and touch it, it's no longer about faith or theory. To argue in 2009 that evolution doesn't exist is no different than claiming the world is flat. It's your right to insist unicorns are real if you want, just don't demand it be taught in schools or be surprised when others become dismissive.
Posted By: Shockmaster (Guest) on March 30, 2009 at 11:33 AM
We all have our religious and political beliefs. You'd be surprised just how much better things would between us if we shut up about both and just lived. Unfortunately, we're humans and we'd just find another reason to hate one another. Nuclear holocaust can't come soon enough.
Posted By: Jaime (Guest) on March 30, 2009 at 11:40 AM
An atheist doesn't just reject the Christian God. An atheist believes there are no gods, just as a theist believes there are some. Seriously, that's the meaning of the word - look it up. Check the roots.
Posted By: Pat Shepard (Guest) on March 30, 2009 at 11:44 AM
Religion: I am right, there is a God, you are wrong.
Atheism: No, *I* am right, there is NO God, YOU are wrong.
Me: I don’t care, shut the fuck up and let me drink my OJ in peace.
This is why the human race (including myself) are the DUMBEST fucking species in the universe and why we should be wiped away from existence. We think we *know* so much and we have to react to “knowledge”. And based on this “knowledge” we claim some form of superiority over something else – even down to the basics of a simple idea.
I don’t care who’s God is better than who’s or whether or not God exists. I have more important shit to worry about – Like shit that’s going on TODAY.
The problem with ANY belief system is trust. Organized religion asks me to trust something I cannot see; Athiesm asks me to trust in people. Well, since we have a little thing called “human tragedy” I can’t trust either.
For example: Things are coming to a head and we are in the “end-times”. “Wars and rumors of wars” and shit – God is supposed to be infallible, righteous, but has no power to intervene on a global scale to make things better for everyone. That shouldn’t be a big deal, right? So...Where is He?
People are supposed to be “good in the end” – But we turn our backs on those that need help; and not spiritual help, but food, clothing shelter, shit like that. We kill, we rob, we rape. We’re great role models for each other.
So, I trust NEITHER. I barely trust myself, because I know that at any moment, some tragedy could come my way and I could snap and murder 37 people randomly. I don’t know my limits morally OR immorrally. That is frightening in itself.
So it doesn’t matter anyways. I am me, I don’t know shit and I try to not know. I don’t CARE to know. I will know when I die. That’s how it *should* be. But, please, continue to argue about shit that won’t affect YOU in the end. Either there is or there isn’t. It doesn’t matter what the person beside you thinks. We bleed this shit into our daily routine and allow it to affect how we treat each other.
That’s the real issue. And until we figure that shit out, nothing will change. I don’t think anything will. So I hope that N. Korea is building a nuke. I hope they send it this way. I hope we retaiiate. I hope Russia and China gets in on it. Maybe Iran and Cuba. Probably England. Once we’re blown to bits, we get our answer – and I hope everyone is fucking happy then.
Posted By: Anarchist (Guest) on March 30, 2009 at 07:20 AM
Amen, umm, I mean good job.
Posted By: Anthony (Guest) on March 30, 2009 at 12:04 PM
No, dkmo, I am not "jaded" towards Christianity - I am jaded to ALL organized religion.
I mean - haven't you noticed yet how much tragedy has been caused because of the whole "My God's wrath is holier than yours"? If you haven't, I don't feel sorry for you cause you're just another that doesn't have a sense of true independence.
I consider myself a very spiritual person. Thing is, I don't need to 1) use it to "prove" how right I am about anything or 2) use it to justify my bigotry of something different from what I am used to - this is something ALL organized religions do. Hindus do it, Sikhs do it, Muslims do it - If you interpreted my rant as Christianity holding a monopoly of that mindset, well, Christianity is pretty big on this side of the world. Sorry.
My point is this: My belief/non-belief in a higher power is my own. I don't *NEED* a preacher, pastor, minister, rabbi, bishop, scientist, or any MAN with flaws to tell me what I should or should not believe. Human history has given me justifiable reason to DOUBT anything anyone tells me about the idea/non-idea of God.
See, I know I'm doing something right, simply because no one understands my rational. And that's cool with me, because no one SHOULD. It's MY rationale. MY life, MY spirituality, MY relationship with God.
It seems as if everyone is occupied with what everyone else believes and how they should apply that belief into every facet of their lives, even when it MAKES NO FUCKING SENSE.
How about we, as a human race, actually concentrate on ourselves, as *individuals* and deal with ourselves as *individuals*; Don't pray for me, I am capable of praying for myself. I am capable of walking on my own path ALONE and holding my relationship with God ON MY OWN. I don't need someone telling me what is the "right" way when the "right" way has been disproven not to work for thousands of years – or is just bloody common sense.
It's not God I have beef with. It's you. It's him, it's her. It's anyone that has shown to be incapable of keeping their personal faith - y'know...PERSONAL.
It's the same as those who talk about homosexuals: I don't care what you do in your home, just don't parade it in my face - Same applies: I don't CARE what you beleive, but when there are SO MANY OTHER OPTIONS on this planet, do not try to bleed your personal faith with politics, education, science, social issues, economics, crime, etc - We should be all capable of knowing right from wrong without doctrine. If you can't, well, yeah...
This isn't about right or wrong - it’s about when you’re on your deathbed and the lights are about to go out – you ask yourself, “Did I do GOOD enough to find out The TRUTH about life?" And that shit is your own. You can't label what I have cause only I define it.
Posted By: Anarchist (Guest) on March 30, 2009 at 12:25 PM
Wedge: thank you for understanding me down to an exact science. I truly feel you have figured me out like a watchmaker.
You can smash my apricot box now.
Look, don't get all pissy because I figured out something for myself that you can't explain. If you feel the need to call me "pathetic" for that, I don't pity you. I am who I am, I won't change, you won't change (right?) and we will just be here at a standstill.
So, unless you have something of value to add, I will dismiss you as nothing more than a man with an opinion. Just like me. An asshole with nothing to say.
Posted By: Anarchist (Guest) on March 30, 2009 at 12:31 PM
Joe, you should write a column for the Agnostics as well
Posted By: TheQuackenbush (Guest) on March 30, 2009 at 01:51 PM
If atheists have a problem with "organized religion," would they be fine with "disorganized religion" or even "organized atheism?"
Posted By: Ari (Guest) on March 30, 2009 at 02:20 PM
"3. Someone else mentioned also that faith refers to the unseen, not irrational. This would apply to the sun before the earth scientific theory its faith too. "
Man, there are so many incredibly ignorant comments here that it's sad. The one above very well represents the shocking lack of understanding of how science works. Let's say you park your car and go into your house. You're not actually seeing your car at this very minute. Now let's say you're presented with two claims: 1) Your car is parked outside. 2) There are 7 leprechauns and a toothfairy playing poker outside. To say that the scientific claim that the sun was created before the Earth is on par with the claim that God created the world in six days, just because both are about something unseen, is equivalent to saying it is as likely that there are 7 leprechauns and a toothfairy playing poker outside your door as it is that your car is parked outside. It's utterly ridiculous. I'm amazed that anyone can even make such a claim with a straight face...
Posted By: JFC (Guest) on March 30, 2009 at 03:15 PM
To be an athiest, you must have a belief that you are the center of the universe - that there is no room for anything unknown - because you know for certain that God does not exist. Either that, or you believe that God does not exist - which is faith in something unseen. So, an athiest has a closed mind to possibilities, while a person who believes in God does not.
Posted By: Stephen (Guest) on March 29, 2009 at 04:34 AM
You are dead wrong. I am an atheist and I in no way think I am the center of the Universe. That is the way Christian think about themselves.
I highly believe in other life outside of our planet, and in life that is more complex and advanced than ourselves. I dont say for certain that a "god-like" creature doesn't exist, but I am thinking they are more like the Q from Star Trek TNG than the Jewish/Christian/Muslim god. Just a more powerful being with powers that will seem "god-like" to us, but they are not by any means a god to us in the sense religion talks about.
Posted By: Kurt (Guest) on March 30, 2009 at 04:06 PM
Oh shut up, Anarchist...
Go eat some more hotpockets and play XBOX.
You rant and rave about shit nobody cares about- which is you, and only you.
How many times do we have to hear about YOU, and YOU telling us that nothing matters?
If YOU really don't care about anything than why are you posting? If YOU don't care about anything than why do we need to hear YOUR opinions?
The fact is that YOU do care- YOU care, hope, and wish that people all had YOUR common views...but nobody does.
Nobody shares YOUR fucked up views because they are fucked up- and so are you. You keep writing bullshit to connect with people- but you write about how you want to be left alone.
You're confused- probably because you are a closet homosexual...and there is nothing wrong with that.
But attacking the church- any church, won't make those feelings go away. You have to be honest that your homosexual feelings and anger for those feelings are being vented towards a target...
In your case modern religion.
At least be honest on why you write. Because this endless whining about YOU is bullshit, if YOU really wanted to seek a life of isolation YOU could do it without posting everyday on 411.
You can come out- people will accept you. You can do that without putting up the front. There are people just like you- those who love the cock. It's okay.
Just stop with the bullshit, please.
Go eat a hotpocket, calm down- and admit that you love cock, and you are venting against religion because you blame religion for making you feel wrong for having those feelings.
I will be the first one to tell you its okay.
Posted By: The Spook (Guest) on March 30, 2009 at 04:23 PM
It's silly to argue that because science doesn't explain everything 100%, that that is faith and therefore, Christianity somehow wins. Just because a person displays faith in something doesn't mean that YOUR faith makes any sense. At at the heart of it, most of the great mysteries of life have theories that make very little sense. Science says that the entire universe was compacted in to one point, then blew up, creating our universe as we no it over billions of years. Pretty ridiculous. God apparently creates himself, then for unknown reasons creates a bunch of other stuff, then changes all his habits, creates a son who must die for our sins for some reason, then stays really, really quiet for a long time, acting in very subtle ways. Equally ridiculous. However, science give me more to go on. I can see evidence of their ideas, if not TOTAL Evidence. The Bible offers me up theories, but they are generally better explained in science, so I choose to believe science. Sure, the Bible tells me that God created the Earth, fish, birds, man, etc, but science really give me a better picture of what what going on and in a more logical order.
The argument here is generally wrong. People are trying to use religion to explain HOW. Religion is not a HOW kind of thing. Religion is a WHY thing.
It is telling us WHY we should be acting a certain way.
I'm a hardcore atheist, but that doesn't mean I have no faith. I do have faith. I acknowledge that science doesn't have very many good answers for the more nebulous parts of our history, but you know what? They also didn't have the Human Genome sequenced 100 years ago. We didn't understand Doplar shifting in the 1400s. We didn't have radiological dating before radioactive isotopes were discovered. As science progresses, we will have more and more answers. I have FAITH in this because that is how science has always been. As a species, we will eventually get the answers we need, but it might not be for a long, long, long time.
Posted By: xjuggernaughtx (Guest) on March 30, 2009 at 04:26 PM
Anarchist Atheists don't necessarily believe that there is 100% no higher power. I believe that there may or may not be but I'm not going to believe in he/she/them without evidence. And no that isn't being agnostic.
Posted By: Justin (Guest) on March 30, 2009 at 07:03 PM
I find atheists to often be as close minded as conservative christians. That's why i sit on this agnostic fence.
Posted By: the dude (Guest) on March 30, 2009 at 08:06 PM
"An asshole with nothing to say."
I'll toast to that, actually. Well met.
Posted By: Wedge (Guest) on March 30, 2009 at 08:12 PM
Havok, it's ok if you don't understand evolution. You have clearly shown that. But understanding how something works doesn't allow you to dismiss it. Go pick up a science book and educate yourself because evolution is a fact. Most Christians would also agree. Wake up buddy, there aren't too many common sense trains left in the station, better get on one soon before you are the last one that everyone points and laughs at.
Posted By: Atheist Saty (Guest) on March 30, 2009 at 08:30 PM
"YOu will BURN for writing such an article.
It is the lack of morals that is bringing society down. Turn your faith back to your lord and savior and you will have eternal life. The only way to stop the wars and moral decay is to go back to the old ways.
When people were decent and not the sex/violence filled animals they are today"
This was hhhh I believe. Wasn't it also hhhh who works in the stock market, effectively gambling? That's nice and Christian of you there mate, I am sure that you live your life to the bible 100%, because Jesus just LOVED money lending. Also, I love the lack of morals argument. Just like the late 19th and early 20th century, where morals weren't exactly pouring out of peoples ears and the US experienced unprecedented growth.
Also I take a special satisfaction in my strongly held, but not immutable, that despite your ludicrous beliefs you will rot in the ground or become ashes in the wind just like me.
Posted By: Pete Thorn (Guest) on March 30, 2009 at 08:45 PM
Hey Spook, Let poor anarchist be.He is not worth your time.Seroiusly what does he say.Most of the time I scroll right past his posts.I have read some, he hates everyone, everyone should think like him,Bah,Bah,words,words.....Its pathetic
Look the guy is probably 5'5".Weighs 135 lbs and would be the first to call the cops if physically threatened.He wants the rule of law........for everybody else.
Lastly, talking about fucking men up the ass and shooting people in the head is weak.I am surprised 411 put that on.I am guessing if someone threatened Crow,Ashish, or Dr."awesomeness" Andrew that way, it would not have been cleared.
Anarchist,I suggest therapy.You sound disturbed.Life is to short to that miserable.Go out, meet a girl.....or a boy for you, go to the gym,take a pill,try to relax.I hope you get your life all straightened out.
Posted By: John (Guest) on March 30, 2009 at 08:46 PM
/pause flamewar
"Anarchist Atheists don't necessarily believe that there is 100% no higher power. I believe that there may or may not be but I'm not going to believe in he/she/them without evidence. And no that isn't being agnostic."
I love how these boards are filled with Anarchists who argue for big government and Atheists who are afraid to be Atheist.
Why the hedging? Is it a fear of being wrong? Or is it simply that you want to have the oh-so-swish-I'm-better-and-smarter-than-you tag of Atheist without actually subscribing to its central tenet? Quite frankly, you handwringers literally ARE all agnostics, of a sort.
agnostic (n.): a person unwilling to commit to an opinion about something
/resume flamewar
Posted By: lol (Registered) on March 30, 2009 at 11:57 PM
If god created the Earth, did god gather up some really big lumps of mud lying around then mix in some water and bung them together, or did god magic up the Earth from nowhere?
Posted By: Guest#7597 (Guest) on March 31, 2009 at 12:33 AM
It is impossible to rightly govern the world without God and the Bible! --President George Washington
We have staked the future of American civilization upon the capacity of each and all of us to govern ourselves according to the Ten Commandments of God. --President James Madison
believe the Bible is the best gift God has ever given to man. All the good from the Savior of the world is communicated to us through this book. -- President Abraham Lincoln
Posted By: The Spook (Guest) on March 31, 2009 at 02:11 AM
wow. some of the comments are a bit harsh, but i wouldn't expect anything less from the internet. anarchist, the eastern religions that i was referring to were buddhism and daoism. both of which value the idea of selflessness, which, if put into practice, enables one's behavior to be genuinely altruistic. viewing all forms of life as equal. in order to get that stage, one must embrace the concept that we as humans know nothing and everything material that we can possibly attain in this world is ultimately worthless. and so on and so forth.
i am just saying that religions aren't all the same.
Posted By: dkmo (Guest) on March 31, 2009 at 06:47 AM
First off, apologies to 411mania and other readers of this article. It really was not my intent to start a “flame war” – it’s unnecessary and immature.
Secondy, to Spook and those of his ilk: I won’t apologize to you for who I am or what I believe. You say all I do is eat hot pockets and I’m gay (showing your bigotry towards homosexuals – like that’s supposed to be an effective insult in 2009) and I’m 5’5” weighing $1.35 playing Xbox, fine, that is your perogative. It’s a free forum. I concede this “war” to you. You continue to treat this like this is Dr. Phil and you know me – but you don’t – and I don’t know you. Let’s all take comfort in that.
I have a belief. You have yours. This is a discussion about why people are becoming less affiliated with Western Organized Religion. I discussed my beliefs. Why I feel this way is none of your business. I just do. You feel your way about the world – I have no beef about that. I have beef however with you trying to analyze the WHY’S to my belief. I’m evil, I’m weak, okay. I am whatever you want me to be, I guess.
Here’s how I see it: The universal argument is whether or not existence is Deterministic or Random. For some(most), the universe is Deterministic, meaning if you have a complete understanding of the laws of physics, you can predict with certainty everything that will happen after (for example) the universe is created in the Big Bang (or God created the world in 7 days). Random means just that – you can't predict anything.
I’m open to the idea that there is a little of both. There is no fear or shame in admitting that. The “catch” with me, is that I do not accept human “labels” – I am not athiest or theist or agnostic or take hold of any one form of religious doctrine. I am – Just here. An observer, a master, a slave, something, everything, nothing. That may be too OTT for some, or whatever, but it makes perfect sense to ME. What interests me is the living mind. Note: not the “human” mind – as that inself is a label, limiting what facinates and drives me. My “longing”, as some may interpret it to be – is to understand the living mind and the energy that posesses it. It creates ideas, composes thought, creates life. Is that God? I don’t know. Does that mean there is a higher being that understands things like quantam physics – can see/live in the past and future concurrently; or can turn dust into bones and muscle and skin, and breathe life into it. It’s a ridiculous idea – or is it?
I don’t commit, simply because I don’t know – But instead of using the unknown to lock myself down to any one choice of faith, I instead embrace it to gain knowledge.
Posted By: Anarchist (Guest) on March 31, 2009 at 07:26 AM
I don’t fear death – not because I feel I am a “good person” and will go to heaven and be with God, or something, but because I feel (and I may be wrong) that the death of my living body only opens the possibility for my living mind to expand. It can’t expand in this vessel of tissue and cells. It’s a prison. But, while I am here, I will observe, learn and debate.
The singular problem with us, as human beings in regards to theology is trying to explain away things that are unexplainable. Evolution exists, but could it just be the hand of God causing it? Tragedy exists, so why does God allow it? Is it in “His Will”? Is this “Free Will” at work? Did God create Man, to intervene or to observe? To love, or to love Him? This is the fundamental flaw with (specifically) Christian doctrine. The argument is that God created man with free-will. So why would he send Jesus to die on the cross “for our sins”? Isn’t that a form of intervention? Is God confused as to whether or not He wants to intervene in our “sinful” lives (saving us) or to just sit back and watch?
I don’t even think this is God at work, but MAN. Us. We decided what was okay to question and what is taboo. Why is it so difficult for us to just exist on our own path – yet with each other? Why is it so hard for a Muslim to befriend a Christian (in the most basic, ignorant form of observation) – Why is homosexuality a “sin”? Until I hear God Himself say it is so, then it is NOT so. Despite what some (Spook) may believe, I am not a homosexual. It doesn’t matter, though. I think we feel in order to exist, we must adhere to all these restrictions – Just for the sake of “order”. Who’s order? Yours? Gods? Earth’s? I don’t understand what “order” is. I know common sense. I believe everyone born on this planet with a healthy brain is enstilled with basic common sense by age 3. We understand “right” from “wrong” – we know what hurts us, and what hurts others.
What we can’t decipher are the things that hurt NO ONE. What do you do with those shades of grey? What do you do with those who are just curious, or even still, are TIRED of being curious and don’t care to know? Some people just DON’T WANT ANYTHING TO DO WITH “GOD”. That’s no one’s fault. That’s the nature of the beast. But we – human beings – feel the need to be vindicated. Where this need is born from, is another thing that fascinates me. I say that the human race is a dying animal, just needing for irradication because of the bloody history and pain it causes to themselves and the planet in general, and Spook and his ilk feel the need to shoot me down for my belief – to vindicate themselves. In fact, the argument is I feel this way to feel vindication myself.
Posted By: Anarchist (Guest) on March 31, 2009 at 07:27 AM
No, I don’t need vindication. I don’t need to be convinced. And I don’t need to convince anyone of anything. I say what I say because of how I feel and how I observe, based on my upbringings, past circumstances, environment, health, cultural surroundings, people I’ve met – people I care about, socio-economical-political-spriritual cause-and-effect events, and how MY living mind reacts to it.
At the end of the day, at the end of the universe, I would like to have a crack at creating life (blasphemy!) – I would like to see if I would intervene or let what I create just exist. If it is a vicious cycle. If I created human life – on another plane of existence, would I make only women? Only men? Would I make it so they don’t age? They can’t procreate? Only one skin color? Only one language? More languages? Give them a broader idea of wisdom? Can I even *do* that, or is this just another puzzle of how the mind works? Would it all come crashing down and humans are just prone to kill and hurt each other? Is there *really* such a thing called “human nature”? Or is it just an easy way – a copout, to explain away the terrible things we do to each other and we’re just too lazy to actually evolve as entities capable of success and happiness without feeling the need to dominate and posess and devour land, energy and the basic fundamentals of the individual idea?
See, all my “questions” can’t be answered by one specific faith, or one specific form of doctrine, one scientific theory, etc. I ask. A lot. To a LOT of people. From a LOT of different walks of life. And no matter what, every answer is different. Because every mind is unique. Every one has a different set of circumstances to draw upon. Everyone has their own interpretation. This is the flaw with us in regards to “religion”. Interpretation.
Therefore, if human hands and the human mind dictated on a sheet of paper, the “specifc” ways of human existence, I am really looking into an INTERPRETATION of that theology. The New Testiment was written by MANY MEN, and MEN ONLY. No female interpretation of the “word of God” – why is that? The Qu’ran was written by MEN. It is a HUMAN INTERPRETATION of the teachings of Mohammed. The Torah was written by men – an INTERPRETATION of the Jewish faith. Interpretation does not make fact. It makes a point of view. I am open to POV’s, but that’s all I can take it as. At face value, it is flawed, as all works are. Just as my words here are. Just as anyone who has ever applied thought to the written word has. In the space of a second, the living mind can create infinite ideas, but in that same second, only one – maybe two thoughts can be dictated into written word under the restrictions of the human body.
Posted By: Anarchist (Guest) on March 31, 2009 at 07:28 AM
So, excuse me if I hold caution with religion, as I have seen and learned (and I have experienced) the flaws with each. This is the same for science, atheism, etc. There are flaws. The same flaws, which (and I’m about to open Pandora’s Box) are also our greatest attribute – Our uniqueness. I don’t want to “conform”. I don’t want to “be one with”, I don’t want to “assimilate” into – I want to be me. I want uniqueness. I want human interaction to understand that. Without malice, without suspicion, without intent to harm, without ignorance or bigotry. It may be utopian, but as you may be able to tell, I am a BIG thinker.
Of course, my own flawed argument (and I admit it is flawed) is that we have not been able to grasp that – for whatever reason: And maybe it would SERVE US BETTER if whatever higher power, or if that higher power is us, to start all over again from scratch. I sometimes feel we are too fargone in our hatred for all things different from us – based on individual beliefs – that we can’t comprehend coexistence with each other as INDIVIDUALS.
I mean, if aliens from another galaxy revealed themselves to us right now, would we be so hostile with them as we are with each other?
Posted By: Anarchist (Guest) on March 31, 2009 at 07:28 AM
"This was hhhh I believe."
I think it was Triple H.
Posted By: Anthony (Guest) on March 31, 2009 at 09:21 AM
"Someone please get havok a pass to a good museum. The Field Museum of Natural History in Chicago has actual skulls in a line to show the changes as humans have evolved. Not replicas, actual skulls. When you can see and touch it, it's no longer about faith or theory. To argue in 2009 that evolution doesn't exist is no different than claiming the world is flat. It's your right to insist unicorns are real if you want, just don't demand it be taught in schools or be surprised when others become dismissive.
Posted By: Shockmaster (Guest) on March 30, 2009 at 11:33 AM"
Obviously Satan put those skulls there to deceive us.
Posted By: Vapid Idiot (Guest) on March 31, 2009 at 11:38 AM
Anarchist,
Are you really going to stoop to playing the victim?
When all else fails make people feel sorry for you? And I had a bit of respect for you and your ability to stand your ground.
You lay waste to anything that resembles organized, or even disorganized religion...you attack all those who seek solace and harmony through any faith.
And now you seek mercy because you are "misunderstood"?
I will show you my better side and accept your apology- because that's what your incredibly long series of posts are...I'm not sure if you realize it, but it is an apology.
And I graciously accept it on behalf of all those who value civility and culture.
Religion is not as cut and dry as anyone believes...its complex and requires faith to understand.
Religion is not the dark- it’s the light. Its hope, decency and respect.
The golden rule: "Treat others how you want to be treated" is the basis of every major religion. To attack it, or religion, is an attack on civility.
I will admit that I stray from my path- often- and don't show my better side, but I know that I have faith that one day I will be a better person.
Religion has shaped our collective ideas on morals and ethics: Religious Injunction, and ethical term, states "Never take any action that is not kind, and that does not build a sense of community, a sense of all of us working together for a commonly accepted goal"
Utilitarian Beliefs state "Never take any action that does not result in the greater good than harm for the society of which you are a part".
Contributive Liberty state "never take any action that will interfere with the rights of others for self-development and self-improvement".
Pareto Optimality "It would be impossible to make any single person better off without harming some other person".
These are deep moral and ethical notions that require faith to execute properly...not will.
There is an attack on religion by people in power to destroy the underlying basis of civility- to divide us...to make us easier to manipulate.
Don't fall into the trap...religion has never been the cause of war, the people who twist it to suite their purposes is.
Religion does not destroy individual rights- it protects them, and asks us to use morals to determine what is "right or wrong".
Religion is not the enemy. God is not the enemy...the enemy are the people who would destroy those ideas to gain rewards in the chaos that would result.
Plato states that "The republic will fall when all its citizens are ignorant of the truth". And Plato believed in one God.
The reason behind religion is that it keeps the power of judgment out of mans hands- and that protects us from the powerful men who rule over us.
Don't let them fool you.
Posted By: The Spook (Guest) on March 31, 2009 at 12:48 PM
So, excuse me if I hold caution with religion, as I have seen and learned (and I have experienced) the flaws with each. This is the same for science, atheism, etc. There are flaws. The same flaws, which (and I’m about to open Pandora’s Box) are also our greatest attribute – Our uniqueness. I don’t want to “conform”. I don’t want to “be one with”, I don’t want to “assimilate” into – I want to be me. I want uniqueness. I want human interaction to understand that. Without malice, without suspicion, without intent to harm, without ignorance or bigotry. It may be utopian, but as you may be able to tell, I am a BIG thinker.
Of course, my own flawed argument (and I admit it is flawed) is that we have not been able to grasp that – for whatever reason: And maybe it would SERVE US BETTER if whatever higher power, or if that higher power is us, to start all over again from scratch. I sometimes feel we are too fargone in our hatred for all things different from us – based on individual beliefs – that we can’t comprehend coexistence with each other as INDIVIDUALS.
I mean, if aliens from another galaxy revealed themselves to us right now, would we be so hostile with them as we are with each other?
Posted By: Anarchist (Guest) on March 31, 2009 at 07:28 AM
Is it selfish to want to be yourself and have people accept that? Not particularly, and I think quite similarly to you in a lot of (but not all) ways. Look at how the United States has evolved, socially, over the past 100 years, though. Equality regardless of race, gender, and sexuality were all huge hurdles to overcome. We still have more hurdles ahead of us, and once people get used to the ideas that being different -- that being UNIQUE is not such a bad thing we'll be better off.
We are not doomed to the sort of hatreds prominent in the Middle East. A good portion of us ARE above that, even if it doesn't seem that way.
And just a general rant:
Is it right to joke about homosexuality or transgender people? No, no it's not. They are entirely on par with hateful racial jokes of the 20th century. What do people who make jokes (or vague accusatory false-acceptance bullshit) about these things hope to accomplish by doing so? Essentially, The Spook has taken an impossible-to-change human trait (sexuality) and attacked you with it, causing you to vaguely defend yourself. This whole thing creates a negative environment for gay people (like myself) because the conversation has essentially dehumanized me.
And that is NOT okay. It has nothing to do with the topic at hand, and this "I'll be the first to say it's alright" garbage is blatantly thin. If you're comfortable with your own sexuality there's no reason to talk about somebody else and THEIR sexuality.
Posted By: luna (Guest) on March 31, 2009 at 01:56 PM
I've always been of the attitude that religion is bullshit. If you believe in god, that's fine, whatever... But I don't, and I won't until he brings his jolly ass down here and shows he's worth believing in... I thought so.
Posted By: Lawrence (Guest) on March 31, 2009 at 04:56 PM
I apologize for offending you Luna, I hope you understand that using homosexuality as a "negative stereotype" was simply a metaphor for being a Christian today.
I feel the same way about my religion- we are attacked for simply existing and living within our culture...as if it was a negative burden on the world.
If that point was not clearly made, I do apologize, and hopefully you will see that homosexuals and people of faith all face attack and distrust in this world.
We live in a time when people confuse tolerance with political correctness- when they are complete opposites.
An attack against a major religion is the same as an attack against sexual preference.
Tolerance is the only answer- but when someone like Anarchist condemns everyone to suit himself is the same one who will condemn a person for their sexual preference.
Posted By: The Spook (Guest) on March 31, 2009 at 05:20 PM
To lol:
I'm "hedging" because I simply don't know whether or not there is any sort of higher power. There is really no evidence so anything I say would be blind speculation. I could pull some stuff out of my ass if you really want but it would just be random nonsense.
But if you want me to take a stance on Chrisianity it is total BS that can be disproven. When I have evidence one way or the other then I'll take a stance.
Posted By: Justin (Guest) on March 31, 2009 at 06:19 PM
Hey Luna, I sugest you read the last post on the article Nore Lame.Its from your friend Anarchist, he talks of his sexual fantasies of raping Spook and cuming in his face.I suppose when that comes from a fellow homosexual, its progressive and nuanced but most of us think its just sick.
Now let the adults talk while you try to catch up on current events.Besides, you proclaiming your gay agenda is the only way anyone would notice you anyways.
Posted By: John (Guest) on March 31, 2009 at 06:34 PM
To Justin:
Well, I hate to break it to you, but you're agnostic. It's simple semantics, really. Monotheism is a belief in one god, Polytheism is a belief in many gods, and Atheism is the absence of belief in any gods.
My point remains that people who are falling all over themselves to declare themselves Atheists, yet want to leave the door open to the possibility of a God or gods, are just charlatans trying to glom onto the alleged intellectual superiority of true Atheists. Richard Dawkins may be a snide prick, but at least he has conviction.
Furthermore, what real difference does it make that you think Christianity is bunk? That doesn't make you any more Atheist than Hindu.
But I'll throw you a bone: Since you seem to be allergic to describing yourself as Agnostic, perhaps you'd find the term Irreligious more appropriate.
Posted By: lol (Guest) on March 31, 2009 at 11:38 PM
To Justin:
"Well, I hate to break it to you, but you're agnostic. It's simple semantics, really. Monotheism is a belief in one god, Polytheism is a belief in many gods, and Atheism is the absence of belief in any gods.
My point remains that people who are falling all over themselves to declare themselves Atheists, yet want to leave the door open to the possibility of a God or gods, are just charlatans trying to glom onto the alleged intellectual superiority of true Atheists. Richard Dawkins may be a snide prick, but at least he has conviction.
Furthermore, what real difference does it make that you think Christianity is bunk? That doesn't make you any more Atheist than Hindu.
But I'll throw you a bone: Since you seem to be allergic to describing yourself as Agnostic, perhaps you'd find the term Irreligious more appropriate.
Posted By: lol (Guest) on March 31, 2009 at 11:38 PM"
I used to define myself as agnostic actually. I prefer the term atheist. If you want to call me an agnostic thats fine. I don't worship/pray to/ believe in any particular diety but the universe is big and one may exist somewhere.
I'm an atheist as opposed to a Hindu because I don't believe in the Hindu trinity either. I professed a particular disbelief in Christianity because I have evidence against it. (The various places where the bible contradicts known facts). I mentioned Christianity because it was the most relevant to this culture and this conversation. I also don't believe in Judaism, Islam, Norse Mythology, Greek mythology, Hindu, Zoroastrianism, and any other religion I've so far heard of.
So why do I have to either be 100% convinced that there is no higher power out there or 100% convinced that there is one? I don't have enough information to speculate as to whether or not there is some sort of higher power out there. Time and space are vast and complex and I'm not ashamed to admit that I don't have a full grasp on the nature of reality. You can call it hedging if you want but I call it accepting the limitations of my knowledge.
Posted By: Justin (Guest) on April 01, 2009 at 12:20 AM
hmmm... ok let me say this if Atheism is on the Rise then why are places like lets say hamilton,alabama where the Ramp is, are in a state what church folk or jesusfreaks
(as im proud to be called ) call revival, or differnt places like in Austrial are having huge church Growth not with just older people but with young people within a church Called HIllsong United! And what about these Gatherings Called Battle Cry with Ron Luce ? hmm tell me why are kids who didn't belive ar now flocking to God if he's quto "not real " Then why are also people starting to say that the Third Greatest Reival in The World is taking place hmm..
O by the way I'll pray for you And When One man rises to power rules the plants and begin to act like a modern dayJesus who will be the devil. hmm.. do some Research and look in to it.
God bless
Posted By: Kendall Jones (Guest) on April 01, 2009 at 10:48 AM
I apologize for offending you Luna, I hope you understand that using homosexuality as a "negative stereotype" was simply a metaphor for being a Christian today.
I feel the same way about my religion- we are attacked for simply existing and living within our culture...as if it was a negative burden on the world.
If that point was not clearly made, I do apologize, and hopefully you will see that homosexuals and people of faith all face attack and distrust in this world.
We live in a time when people confuse tolerance with political correctness- when they are complete opposites.
An attack against a major religion is the same as an attack against sexual preference.
Tolerance is the only answer- but when someone like Anarchist condemns everyone to suit himself is the same one who will condemn a person for their sexual preference.
Posted By: The Spook (Guest) on March 31, 2009 at 05:20 PM
Actually I'm seeing a trend in this country away from Christianity and the general idea that it's okay to bash people for being Christian -- while it's still considered taboo to bash someone for being Jewish or Muslim or Wiccan, etc. Just like it's suddenly okay to blame white people for all the problems of the world -- whether that's true or not (and it isn't) doesn't make racism or blind hatred against these people okay. White, Black, Christian, Atheist, Male, Female, Gay, Straight -- we're all human, we all deserve a fair shot at the world. None of this "your parents had a shot at running things, now it's our time" garbage... just straight equality across the board.
Otherwise we'll end up in a situation all too similar to what happened just before Nazis came to power in Germany, blaming certain groups of people and coming up with "solutions" for those groups of people. And we all know going in THAT direction can be a very dangerous road to take.
Posted By: luna (Guest) on April 01, 2009 at 11:50 AM
"if god created everything, then what created god?
Posted By: bullshit (Guest) on March 29, 2009 at 04:16 PM"
That is quite possibly the stupidest and most easily refutable argument against the existence of God that there is.
Where did the universe come from? The big bang? Okay... so what exactly exploded to make this bang of which you speak, what was there before? Oh, a very very densely packed mass of stuff that constitutes all the matter in the universe, right. And where did THAT come from? It was always there you say? Well, as Einstein (and others) have shown, matter is energy and energy is matter. Thought is energy. If matter and energy have always existed, then why not thought? Use some rational thought instead of merely posing asinine questions and you will see that an eternal sentient being is not that farfetched.
Posted By: Ben S (Guest) on April 01, 2009 at 12:05 PM
"hmmm... ok let me say this if Atheism is on the Rise then why are places like lets say hamilton,alabama where the Ramp is, are in a state what church folk or jesusfreaks
(as im proud to be called ) call revival, or differnt places like in Austrial are having huge church Growth not with just older people but with young people within a church Called HIllsong United! And what about these Gatherings Called Battle Cry with Ron Luce ? hmm tell me why are kids who didn't belive ar now flocking to God if he's quto "not real " Then why are also people starting to say that the Third Greatest Reival in The World is taking place hmm..
O by the way I'll pray for you And When One man rises to power rules the plants and begin to act like a modern dayJesus who will be the devil. hmm.. do some Research and look in to it.
God bless
Posted By: Kendall Jones (Guest) on April 01, 2009 at 10:48 AM"
Please please please, as one Christian to another, next time, spell check before you make us look any worse.
Posted By: Ben S (Guest) on April 01, 2009 at 12:27 PM
Justin -
Since you obviously are again missing my point, we'll try one more time:
"So why do I have to either be 100% convinced that there is no higher power out there or 100% convinced that there is one?"
You don't.
Unless you want to call yourself an Atheist. Personally, I can't understand why you "prefer" being called an Atheist, because by your own protestations you clearly do not prefer to believe what an atheist believes, or more specifically, lacks belief in.
"You can call it hedging if you want but I call it accepting the limitations of my knowledge."
Quite franky, I'd prefer to just call it agnostic. It's a bit exasperating to make a semantic argument and then have someone come back blathering about their personal philosophy, which is relevant to the argument ONLY insofar as it either FITS the definition of an Atheist, or it DOES NOT. In your case, you have asserted that you do not know whether there is a higher power, but you have not ruled out the possibility of it. That would be in line with agnostic thinking. Atheistic thinking would dictate that there is nothing to be particularly unsure about. Atheism is the belief that deities do not exist. I don't know how to be more clear on the subject.
Posted By: lol (Guest) on April 01, 2009 at 02:15 PM
Its always funny to read some posts of people who obviously don't know how to read. They look at your post, read two words and think they have read the whole thing. Just awesome.
For the millionth time, evolution is a fact. Human evolution is only a theory. There is NOT 1 shread of evidence for human evolution. Human evolution is based off the idea that since other species (i.e animals and plants) evole, that we must evolve. It is NOT a fact that we evolve like its a fact most other species evolve. So until they actually have some proof of HUMAN EVOLUTION, then anyone who believes in it an claims to be an athiest is a pot calling the kettle black. Cause belief in human evolution has no factual base and its a belief without facts to back it up.
Now lets see how many people will post that I don't believe in evolution at all. I am sure its going to happen.
Posted By: Havok (Guest) on April 01, 2009 at 02:58 PM
Havok.
If you are looking for 100%, you're right, you won't find that for human evolution. What you will find is tons and tons of circumstancial evidence. Here's a great jumping off point.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_evolution
There is plenty of links there to follow the research back. If you've studied up on this previously and have found evidence that this is incorrect or skewed, please post up some links. I'm a big believer in evolution because I haven't found a better way to explain why were are here and what we are. I have really religious friends that always tell me that they have evidence against evolution, but they never pony up. I've done a bunch of research on my own, but most of the site/arguments that I've found are generally based on an incorrect understanding of science. Do you have any good sites I could visit?
Posted By: xjuggernaughtx (Guest) on April 01, 2009 at 03:51 PM
Havok. See fossil records.
Lol. I'm really not sure why you care so much about the semantics argument but here goes.
If I were speaking to a group of people who used the pure straight dictionary definition of both words I'd probably go with agnostic. You're right that does more accurately describe my beliefs.
However colloquial use of the terms is different. When I tell people I'm agnostic they think that I'm unsure whether "God" (as in Christian god) exists or not. I'm sure he does not. Thats why I choose to go with atheist.
Posted By: Justin (Guest) on April 01, 2009 at 03:54 PM
However colloquial use of the terms is different. When I tell people I'm agnostic they think that I'm unsure whether "God" (as in Christian god) exists or not. I'm sure he does not. Thats why I choose to go with atheist.
Posted By: Justin (Guest) on April 01, 2009 at 03:54 PM
I find that humorous because I used to do the same thing. Now I use the proper term. I'm agnostic because I'm agnostic. Yes, I'm 100% certain that Jesus is a mythical being on par with Hercules, Horus, and Thor -- but I'm not entirely certain that there isn't some sort of greater intelligence, or that God isn't simply nature, some sort of pantheism, or whatever else that I and everyone else haven't thought of. I'm agnostic, and I'm not defining myself through the beliefs of Christians, and if they ask me I clarify myself. Simple as that.
It may be easier to say "Yeah, I'm an atheist" to someone who is Christian and squash any hope they may have of converting you, but I'm not going to define myself around Christianity or a generalized perception of what they may view agnosticism as. I am what I am, you are what you are.
Actually, if I'm in a particularly jaunty mood and somebody asks my religion I do say "I'm a heathen!" It usually gets a better reaction than "I'm an atheist" or "I'm agnostic", which I find rather humorous in and of itself.
Posted By: luna (Guest) on April 01, 2009 at 05:53 PM
Justin -
Well, the semantic argument matters to me because words have meaning and those meanings form the contextual and referential basis of human communication. An apple is not a pear, cauliflower is not broccoli, a wasp is not a bee, etc.
I thank Luna for sharing a personal perspective on this, as it dovetails nicely with what I was getting at.
Posted By: lol (Guest) on April 01, 2009 at 08:19 PM
An apple is not necessarily an apple. "Apple" is a sound image that society arbitrarily has decided signifies the idea of the fruit we know and love. But lets say society decided tomorrow that apples should be called oranges and oranges should be called apples. Then I went up to a fruit stand and asked for an apple. I would get an orange pulpy tangy fruit and would be unhappy. The point is that if I want to convey the message I want I have to use the terms in the way the people I'm speaking to understand them. Language is not absolute. A rose by any other name would smell as sweet just the same.
And also I'm not the only one who shares this view on the word atheist. http://atheism.about.com/od/definitionofatheism/a/whatisatheism.htm There are plenty of others who share the same idea.
Posted By: Justin (Guest) on April 01, 2009 at 11:04 PM
Why is atheism on the rise? Simple; the political dominance of the secular humanist and it's subsequent indoctrination of every child that goes through the public education system. How can someone believe in a God they know nothing about? And the church has been making a bad situation worse by mutilating the message of the pure gospel beyond recognition. But a time will come when all will know God/Elohim/Yahweh, whether or not they've opted for fire insurance.
Posted By: answer (Guest) on April 02, 2009 at 05:24 PM
Political dominance of the secular humanist? Ummmm... did you miss the last 8 years of America or something?
Posted By: Justin (Guest) on April 02, 2009 at 08:39 PM
"I feel the same way about my religion- we are attacked for simply existing and living within our culture...as if it was a negative burden on the world."
It is exactly that. Religion has contributed more negatively to the world than any other human-made concept I can think of off the top of my head. It stunts progress, encourages ignorance and prides itself in stupidity and irrationality. We as a species would be so much farther along and significantly (though not completely) more peaceful if a majority of us didn't cling to nonsense beliefs that have no relevance in a world where we can actually explain why rain happens.
Posted By: Shane O Mac (Guest) on April 06, 2009 at 10:19 AM
if you think that atheism is because people are smarter
then why not join the smart people?
Posted By: nina (Guest) on April 06, 2009 at 07:30 PM
That 16% is non-religious people. Not atheists. Atheist still stand at around 1% and 3% worldwide.
Posted By: Brandon Johns (Guest) on May 23, 2009 at 03:40 AM
STAY CURRENT