Things We Wish Weren't True But Are
Posted by Andrew Tobolowsky on 04.09.2009
A new variety column.
I like this. I think about it a lot. These are just the kind of things that I think most of us make a business of pretending just aren't true. But of course they are. We'll start out with something easy, like:
Animals have feelings
Well of course they do. And not just the domesticated ones. Elephants get sad every time they pass an elephant graveyard. ELEPHANTS HAVE GRAVE YARDS.
There are pictures all over Youtube of squirrels fighting dogs who threaten their kids. That's not just trying to protect their DNA treasure.
It doesn't make me feel worse about eating them, frankly. But if that IS your excuse, I suggest getting a new one.
Now a little harder...
In a two party system where only one of them gets to make most of the decisions for four years in a row, you will find yourself unreasonable about things you would otherwise find reasonable.
Let's be honest folks. What do wishing the government were smaller and hating gay marriage have in common? Absolutely nothing. In fact, if you actually WERE for a government that intervened less, one would expect you wouldn't want it interfering in the private lives even of homosexuals. Likewise, what do wanting a bigger government and supporting abortion have to do with each other? Again, nothing. And again, if you wanted government to take care of people you could make the argument that supporting abortion decreases the burden on the state.
Don't think I don't get it. I mean, hey, it was five minutes after I believe the second debate before the GOP had that ad up about how Obama kept agreeing with John McCain, as if that were a bad thing. And as dumb as that particular ad was, they had a really good point.
The electoral college is one thing but, popularly, it's been a while since anyone won by a large amount. Candidates can't afford to lose any of their voting bloc and that means avoiding identification with the other candidate on pretty much any of the issues. You can't have voters saying "what's the difference" and you also can't have voters saying "he never mentioned the issues that matter to me."
(Please don't post to say that I'm picking on Republicans because I mentioned that this ad happened, and was stupid. If ever history becomes my fault, you'll all be in a lot more trouble than you currently are.
Also, if I have a second request please don't come on here to post things like "WHY DIDN'T YOU MENTION BIDEN SAYING SOMETHING STUPID TODAY INSTEAD OF THIS ARTICLE". Accusations of bias do not equal cogent points. I am politely asking you to have a problem with what I say and not whatever minor Democrat screw up I didn't mention. I don't think that's too much to ask.)
Come on Democrats. Even if you don't agree, you can't see why some people would consider abortion the murder of an innocent? I sure as hell can, and I'm pro-choice.
Come on Republicans. You can't see why someone might think a ban on gay marriage is discriminatory and therefore not subject to judicial review or vote?
Come on.
Biblical religion is dying, mostly because of its sins, second, because it is not a current document.
I very well understand the fear embodied by this concern. The idea is that god fearing people are good people and that without the Bible as a foundation, our nation is bound to lose itself in immorality.
This is actually, I believe, a legitimate concern. The political laws of this country were never meant to enforce morality, they were meant to protect citizens. Legally, the law cares that you killed a person not because it's wrong but because you infringed on that person's rights—and that such a precedent could have an awful effect on the community. This is why there are no laws against, for example, adultery.
And yet our community has always been able to recognize adultery as a sin in many places—and this is not to say that you have to believe in the Bible at ALL to realize adultery is a sin, because you don't—because there existed a code of morality in addition to the legal code that was at least generally recognized.
I would argue, as someone getting a PhD in Biblical studies, that there never was a time when the Bible was used as the perfect moral law people suppose it to be, which is a statement vehemently opposed by many people who have no idea what they're talking about. But that doesn't really matter. The actual Bible has been well served by the people who haven't read it and tell you what it's about anyway. It's become a much nicer document than it ever was. And people who have no idea about the history of Ancient Israel have made it into a much nicer place than it ever was.
But the fact of the matter is that the Bible does say many nice things about living in the world, and I don't care if you're an atheist or Hindu or whatever, that's still true. In two difference places, for example, it tells Israelite citizens to leave the corners of their fields and vineyards standing when harvest time comes for the poor and alien. That's nice. And there's not a single law in the United States legal code that's like that.
But another fact of the matter is that by and large the Bible is doomed not only because of what it is but because of those who espouse it. If you insist on it being a perfect, complete, document, you basically kill it.
For two reasons
1) If you force yourself not to separate the good from the bad you end up with an extremely xenophobic, bloodthirsty text not at all appropriate to the other parts about being good and helping people. This is because of a natural part of Biblical evolution which those who hold it to be perfect and complete can't acknowledge but is nevertheless true. The Old Testament, called the Hebrew Bible by people who don't want to be condescending, is a document with political, historical, AND religious purpose. There is, therefore a lot of politics in there. You really don't want to extract moral laws from political maneuverings. Imagine doing that from the recent presidential campaign.
2) Whether you believe God wrote the thing or not, either He wrote it for a much less scientific and cosmopolitan world than the one we live in or else it was simply written by someone with much less scientific knowledge and cultural awareness than we all have. Either way, attempting to use this book as if it were perfect in its cultural and scientific knowledge is neither a smart thing to do, nor a welcoming one.
And also quit adding stuff like "God hates gays", because it's pretty poorly attested. You'd have a much better shot at "God hates women".
The message I'd like to get across, if I'm allowed, is that religion itself still has a chance. Those religious figures who have recognized the limitations of the Bible and updated their own personal opinions, and those who have used it as a tool to reach out, forgive, and teach where the modern world is considerably more cruel are winning converts every day. This is because they are not out of date, and have moved with the times.
There is still room in the 21st century for a teaching of love, respect, consideration to supplement the things that you're simply not ALLOWED to do—allowed doesn't teach behavior.
But if you're wasting your speaking space on gayness and not using condoms, you are pretty much wasting any hope for your religion. That's not what it's there for. An old message WILL die a natural death unless it embraces the new world.
In short: The Bible has some good stuff in it and--because it is a book that was composed over centuries for a variety of political, cultural, and ,yes, religious purposes, some bad stuff. You are losing out, I would estimate, on 90% of people who are willing to go with the good stuff by refusing to let go of the bad stuff even though the damn thing is nearly 3000 years old.
I'm not saying religion is dying, because I don't think it is. There are no amount of attacks on the Bible or on what religious people have done which can be used to mean "God doesn't exist". All of those complaints boil down to "you're doing it wrong", and often they're right. But that actually isn't proof of anything either way.
And, second---the most Christian people seem to apply the whole Bible the least. They get very serious about things like homosexuality, which is barely mentioned, and ignore about 500 of the other laws. I would take a minute to decide just how much of what you're doing is really just you, huh? Not a bad book. Really, not. Unless you refuse to use your (also?) God-given sense and humanity to pick and choose, rather than bigotry.
And lastly, may I just say yes, it would be super great if there WAS a magic book which told everyone just how to live their lives and knew how to deal with everything. This would make life a thousand times easier. But there is not, and life is scary. Quit being pussies.
The demographic voting blocs in this country are probably not what you would wish they were.
Republicans first so I can end on an anti-democratic note and seem fairer.
People think I write about Sarah Palin so often because I'm afraid of her. Which isn't so, because I'd be more than happy if she ran for president because it would save the DNC a lot of money and effort.
But it's actually usually out of an honest confusion.
Look, I can completely understand someone thinking that Sarah Palin was the best choice for the next President of the United States. Of course I do. That doesn't make you a bad person, in fact in some ways it may make you a good person. I disagree with her fundamentally on basically every issue but a lot of people support her because she seems to be standing up for decency---and who am I to argue against someone wanting more decency?
So, yes, I can completely understand someone thinking she was the best choice.
What I can't understand is someone thinking she has a realistic shot. Because she just doesn't, and I'm not saying that to be a dick. Not enough people want fundamentalist Christian values. Not enough people want someone who doesn't articulate policies or views on the world but sells only herself as a human being and a vague message of getting back to the basics.
It wouldn't make any more sense if I were convinced Ross Perot were going to win in the nineties even if, and I wasn't really old enough, even if I thought he was the best candidate. You can like her. You can think she's the best candidate You can love her. But think she can win?
The numbers aren't there. I think we can all admit that the section of the population Sarah Palin appeals to may be tight-knit and vocal but is still smaller than even the Republican party as a whole, right? And since the Republican party lost both the last presidential and the last two senatorial elections, how exactly does that add up to a victory.
Right? I mean, people basically have to realize that they can be convinced of the right of a certain mode of thought and STILL recognize reality, don't they? Can the republicans win in 2012? Absolutely they can. If the economy hasn't turned around, could be no problem. But that still doesn't make Palin, who ONLY appeals to hardcore christian conservatives a viable candidate. I am not (right now, anyway) insulting her, or her beliefs. I'm saying most people don't share them.
On the Democratic side of things, I'd really like to point out that Democrats have a huge problem no one is talking about. The strength of the Democratic party is largely in minorities. But minorities, largely, have Republican cultural values. It was a powerful combination of African-Americans and Mormons that put a stop to gay marriage in California. And if that combination looks absurd to you it's because we're supposed to think it is. In this case, their social values aligned exactly.
We're going to be charitable here and suggest that Michael Steele's tenancy of the RNC chair is the first faltering step in the RNC's realization of the potential to take those minority votes away and capitalize on them. I've had fun with Michael Steele because he's so, so bad at it but awareness of the possibility is the first step towards exploiting it. And there is zero reason that with intelligent application Republicans can't be
successful in appealing to these conservative voting blocs that have heretofore voted liberal.
Posted By: Rick (Guest) on April 08, 2009 at 10:46 AM
God hates women!
But seriously, though, very salient column. I am, in fact, a Republican (although I'm more of a libertarian than anything), and I absolutely HATED the choice of Sarah Palin as McCain's running mate. She's ignorant in a lot of very important issues, and I mean totally, blatantly, unapologetically IGNORANT, and I feel like a lot of her biggest selling point, her sincerity, was actually quite insincere. Once I got over the initial "Wow, she's attractive...for a politician" and actually listened to some of her speeches and witnessed one of the VP debates, I realized that McCain had no possible hope of winning the election, and it was largely due to Palin. I honestly feel like McCain's best chance would've been with Bobby Jindal, but that's neither here nor there.
But yeah, just wanted to throw that out there, before you get inundated by all the kooks.
Posted By: Wyatt Beougher (Registered) on April 08, 2009 at 11:41 AM
Koran religion seems to be flourishing! Maybe 'Biblical religion' (whatever that is that you are referring to) could take a leaf out of its book!
Posted By: Leomunds Tiny Nut (Guest) on April 09, 2009 at 05:48 AM
"Not enough people want someone who doesn't articulate policies or views on the world but sells only herself as a human being and a vague message of getting back to the basics."---sounds like you were describing Obama---ZING!!---yeah....i feel much better now.
Posted By: anti-messiah (Guest) on April 09, 2009 at 09:16 AM
Andrew Tobo...
This is a GREAT article you put together. It was very thoughtful, and didn't attack just the GOP. If I never followed your postings, I would have not known that you were a Democrat, and thought you were an Independent. Good job.
Posted By: IndependentForJustice (Guest) on April 09, 2009 at 10:24 AM
Sorry, but, if anyone is ignorant here, it's you, Andrew. You have no idea what you're talking about when it comes to, well, really anything that you have written.
So, the Bible isn't a "current document" as you say.. Neither is the Constitution! Are you saying we should get rid of that too?
IGNORANCE
Posted By: Spyke (Guest) on April 09, 2009 at 11:10 AM
Just to chime in...
What I feel is the problem with my fellow Christians is this: We’ve concentrated SO HARD on the *purpose* of Christianity (to spread the Gospel of Jesus Christ throughout the world) that we forgot the method.
The method is simple: Live your life as He would live it. I’ve been to so many retreats and revivals and conferences, all spouting off the new “selling point” of the past 10 or so years, “WWJD?”, and it’s come to the point that non-believers see it as just that, a “selling point”.
I am not a salesman. I do not want to sell anything. The love one feels when he has a relationship with Jesus is not something that can be bought, taught, thrown, forced on or beaten into. It is a CHOICE. One chooses to have Jesus in their hearts, and I think this is where we have failed as humans following the Life of Jesus. We continue to focus on THE APOCALYPSE, the gloom and doom, the terrible things in this world. But, isn’t that what those outside of the church call “preaching to the choir”. As a Christian I *know* there are problems. But as a Christian, I *know* there is something out there that will make the problems go away. It is displaying the love I have for Jesus by showing it to my fellow man. That is the method. I don’t need to go door-to-door or on talk shows and spout off how this law is decaying moral values or this policy is destroying Christianity.
CHRISTIANITY IS NOT BEING DESTROYED. The human involvement in it is. The teachings of Jesus Christ has not changed. Love your neighbour as you love yourself. I am the truth, the way and the life. Whosoever believes in me will not perish but have everlasting life. These have not changed. The METHOD to show off that promise has.
My fellow Christians are approaching the “spreading of the Gospel” from a DEFENSIVE position. “we are in terrible times”, “oh woe is us, the government is going down a path of sin”, “the problem is not enough people are finding the path to righteousness” – bullocks. These are NOT problems. A true believer understands that these are events that will come to pass, and will find a way to Heaven IN SPITE of this. We need to get back to the root of the whole “What Would Jesus Do?” mantra that we preach. What would Jesus do? He would help his fellow man. He would feed, clothe and shelter those less fortunate. He would display his love and passion for life. He would do all these things WITHOUT predjudice. It is through our DEEDS and GOOD WORKS, not our WORDS that will enable non-beleivers to CHOOSE Jesus. Heaven isn’t going to have people who don’t want to be there, right? I LOVE my relationship with Him. I need for people to see that. People only see hate and anger when you spout off about abortion and gay rights, guns and Muslims.
Posted By: Believer (Guest) on April 09, 2009 at 11:59 AM
...Ooops, I ranted too much!!!
These are things that don’t matter in Heaven with Him. People will see light and love if you show light and love.
I want to leave my Christian brothers and sisters with a few thoughts. When you close your eyes, how do you see your Savior? Do you see Him with an AK-47, killing Muslims? Do you see Him beating on or screaming at a homosexual? Do you see Him burning down an abortion clinic, even going as far as incinerating a victim of rape or incest? Do you see Him making speeches about how we don’t spend enough on the military and weapons of death, and spend too much money on helping to clothe, feed and give health care to those who need it?
We don’t need to give the perception that we are doomed to failure because not enough people have “converted”. I’m not sure Jesus wants “converts” – I would think He would want to be in a relationship with those who REALLY want to be in one with Him, and not from fear of what may happen if they’re NOT. So, maybe we need to start acting not like we’re “the best religion and all others are going to hell” – just act like we are good people that have something in our hearts that completes us as human beings. Because whether or not the world goes to hell in a handbasket, *I* know “no weapon formed against me shall prosper”. Remember that one?
Of course, I could be wrong, and Jesus could be a fag-and-towelhead-hating, selfish-with-his-posessions, blue-eyed caucasian American bent on domination and submission to His will no matter what the consequence. In which case, I will apologize for wasting my life believing in Him.
Posted By: Believer pt 2 (Guest) on April 09, 2009 at 12:00 PM
Political Christianity is an exercise in incapability. God blessed us with free will and an ability to choose whether we believe in Him.
As a Christian, I cannot force anyone else to follow His example - I can only live my life in His honor for others to see.
But,
that in no way means that I have to accept the bad choices of others as normal.
That's the job of liberals/democrats: to force everyone to accept their point of view as the only one correct.
Posted By: Mikel (too lazy to log in) (Guest) on April 09, 2009 at 12:54 PM
There ya go, believer. That kind of religion shouldn't, and I think isn't, dying.
Thanks for the nice comments folks. We'll see if positive reinforcement reforms me ;)...
Posted By: Andrew Tobolowsky (Registered) on April 09, 2009 at 01:39 PM
Yes, Spyke. That sentence certain invalidates Andrew's entire article. Good job with that analysis.
Oh, and Leomunds Tiny Nut is the most hilarious name I've seen in a while.
Posted By: xjuggernaughtx (Guest) on April 09, 2009 at 06:44 PM
Sorry, but, if anyone is ignorant here, it's you, Andrew. You have no idea what you're talking about when it comes to, well, really anything that you have written.
So, the Bible isn't a "current document" as you say.. Neither is the Constitution! Are you saying we should get rid of that too?
IGNORANCE
Posted By: Spyke (Guest) on April 09, 2009 at 11:10 AM
Ignorance?
Isn't the Constitution a living document that we Americans have 'amended' several times?
Should we have not changed the Consitution by formally abolishing slavery and allowing women to vote?
Don't be stupid.
Posted By: Heyyo (Guest) on April 09, 2009 at 09:10 PM
Sorry, but, if anyone is ignorant here, it's you, Andrew. You have no idea what you're talking about when it comes to, well, really anything that you have written.
So, the Bible isn't a "current document" as you say.. Neither is the Constitution! Are you saying we should get rid of that too?
IGNORANCE
Posted By: Spyke (Guest) on April 09, 2009 at 11:10 AM
Lets talk about what it means to be "current". The most recent parts of the constitution were written around 1800 or so years ago. The oldest parts were around 5000 years ago.
By contrast the earliest parts of the constitution were written around 200 years ago and the most recent parts were added within the last 20 years. So the constitution is a much more current document.
Posted By: Justin (Guest) on April 09, 2009 at 11:44 PM
"But that still doesn't make Palin, who ONLY appeals to hardcore christian conservatives a viable candidate."
I'm not a hardcore Christian conservative and I find Palin to be an appealing candidate.
Are there issues on which I disagree with her? Sure. Did it turn out that she ultimately needed to be a bit more seasoned than she was when she was called up from the bench? I'd say so. Quite frankly,I'd probably be a little worried if I found any politician that I agreed with 100% of the time who could seamlessly navigate their way to the White House with little actualy governmental experience. Sadly, I am deeply outnumbered in that regard.
But, Andrew, I think the real reason you obsess about Palin is that you buy into the characature of her that emerged in the popular media and that has been beaten to death by the left-o-sphere. I don't doubt that you would still disagree with her on most, if not all, issues, but I do not even recognize this braindead-hardcore-fundy-fanatic-in-glasses-and-heels that you always seem to be referring to.
To me, it's indicative of a growing trend I've seen from left-of-center voices. It seems like the bar for what gets labeled "hardcore Christian conservative" or "fundamentalist wacko" has fallen really, really low. In my observations (and I do stress "MY") it now seems that if your faith causes you to hold a belief that a liberal disagrees with, you are labeled a religious extremist. To me, this cheapens and demeans what should rightly be a pejorative term.
There are real, dangerous religious extremists in the world, lumping Palin in that crowd strikes me as vindictive and narrow-minded. Whether we are talking about deranged Muslim suicide bombers or the detestable "God-Hates-Fags" crowd, is it really fair or even logical to be painting Palin and other "Christians-of-Inconvenient-Conviction" with the same brush?
When it comes to Palin, I think liberals are guilty of the same jaundiced eye that they ridicule hyperbolic Obama detractors for.
Posted By: lol (Guest) on April 09, 2009 at 11:53 PM
To Believer- I can certainly respect your viewpoint and perhaps if more Christians I wouldn't have a problem with Christianity in general. And there is a lot of "love thy neighbor" type things in the bible. However there is also (mainly in the old testament) a ton of very awful and hateful things. Slavery, selling your daughter as a sex slave, killing all non-believers, blatant sexism, murdering your son if it is god's will etc. The point I believe Andrew was trying to make is that if you take the Bible as the literal word of god then have to take the good with the bad inflexibly and you wind up often with the bad outweighing the good. If the bible were taken as more metaphorical advice on how to live life there would be a greater ability to focus on the positive aspects of the religion. Unfortunately the fundamentalist Christians are the most vocal faction of christianity at the moment which is going to turn a lot of people off. Of course whether this is good, bad, or neutral is up for debate.
Posted By: Justin (Guest) on April 09, 2009 at 11:59 PM
Really? This article went from a political debate to religion and ethics?
I really have no fight with the article. It is written from one man's point of view and, as rarely as it happens politically, I can agree with some things and disagree on others. Politics aren't black and white anymore. There are shades of gray in everything that is political.
But back to my man reason for comment.
I find it difficult to read the comments and not interject a couple of points.
WWJD was based on the belief that living like Jesus would get you to Heaven to partake in everlasting life. When in fact, the only way to recieve everlasting life to beleieve that Jesus Christ died to save you from your sins and shortcomings. "For by GRACE are ye svaed through FAITH. Not of yourselves, it is the Gift of God. Not of works, lest any man should boast."
The BIBLE is the same as it was 3000 years ago. There have not been any changes. To say that it is not a current document is lidicrous because you are denying that nothing has changed in the hsitory of the world. You say adultery is a sin and we know it. That's right. Has that changed?
The problem that came out in the last election was that Sarah Palin is a Christian in the sense of Born-Again. Too often Christianity is lumped into anyone that believes in a "man named Jesus" which also includes Catholicism and other sects that have done nothing to inspire their fellow man to follow Christ.
Posted By: really? (Guest) on April 10, 2009 at 12:06 AM
Believer: You are the kind of Christian I love being around. The kind that doesn't judge -- the kind unlike my family. ;)
I'm agnostic, but I have a lot of Christian friends -- they're usually shocked when I tell them my lack of religion/religious affiliation. I have a lot of Christian values (hey, I was raised Christian, so it only makes sense, right?) but I also disagree with huge portions of biblical text.
But when you get down to it, LOVE is the real message of the bible, and it saddens me to see it used as a weapon of hatred... because that's exactly what people do with it. I may not believe in Jesus, Christianity or the bible as a whole, but I do recognize that there are good messages in there. It's disturbing how many people focus on the negative aspects of hatred and apocalypse, and it does scare people away from Christianity.
Not me... I'm fairly objective about everything. I just can't bring myself to believe in it. I don't want to start a debate on it. xD
Posted By: luna (Guest) on April 10, 2009 at 12:21 AM
"The BIBLE is the same as it was 3000 years ago. There have not been any changes. To say that it is not a current document is lidicrous because you are denying that nothing has changed in the hsitory of the world. You say adultery is a sin and we know it. That's right. Has that changed? "
Posted By: really? (Guest) on April 10, 2009 at 12:06 AM
Ummmm... what? I could be misinterpreting you because that sentence is very confusing... but I think you are trying to say that the world is fundamentally the same as it was 3000 years ago. (Where is this 3000 figure coming from anyway? I'm pretty sure the old testament is older than that and the new younger.) Many things have changed since then. For instance we no longer think slavery is ok as it is in the Bible. We're probably also not going to stone people to death if they are disrespectful to their parents. We probably don't think anymore that all non christians are evil. (Don’t associate with non-Christians. Don’t receive them into your house or even exchange greeting with them. 2 John 1:10 Whoever denies “that Jesus is the Christ” is a liar and an anti-Christ. 1 John 2:22) We probably don't think its ok to kill those who defy priests and fortune tellers. ( Anyone arrogant enough to reject the verdict of the judge or of the priest who represents the LORD your God must be put to death. Such evil must be purged from Israel. (Deuteronomy 17:12 NLT) A man or a woman who acts as a medium or fortuneteller shall be put to death by stoning; they have no one but themselves to blame for their death. (Leviticus 20:27 NAB)) Or homosexuals for that matter. (See Leviticus. This one is common enough I don't have to quote it.) We're also ok nowadays with lending money with interest.
Yes some things are the same. Adultery is still bad but not a reason for the death penalty anymore. (If a man commits adultery with another man's wife, both the man and the woman must be put to death. (Leviticus 20:10 NLT))
So yeah. I think its fair to say that the Bible is not an accurate reflection of societies views as a whole.
Posted By: Justin (Guest) on April 10, 2009 at 01:32 AM
"There are real, dangerous religious extremists in the world, lumping Palin in that crowd strikes me as vindictive and narrow-minded. Whether we are talking about deranged Muslim suicide bombers or the detestable "God-Hates-Fags" crowd, is it really fair or even logical to be painting Palin and other "Christians-of-Inconvenient-Conviction" with the same brush?"
Palin is associated with a priest who made himself famous "hunting witches" in Africa. As a pagan, I would tend to view that as extreme.
Posted By: null2099 (Guest) on April 10, 2009 at 06:34 AM
Justin, I think the flaw in your argument is that you take certain things from the OLD Testiment and lump it in with current Christianity.
The whole “Wrath-of-God” Sodom and Gomorrah Noah’s Flood thing died when Jesus died and was resurrected from the grave. Now, it’s not about so much following the law (it is still important), but the main thing is BELIEF in Jesus.
You choose not to believe in him. That’s fine. I don’t have anything to add. God gave us all free-will. See, I’m not going to try and convince you that I’m right and you’re wrong. That is playing into the stereotype that has haunted us Christians for DECADES. I don’t want to “convert” you, Justin. I can’t -make- you want to get into a relationship with Him. Just as you can’t –make- me leave Him. All I can do is hope and pray that my example as a good Christian, by being a good and decent human being – is good enough to convince YOU to want to explore a relationship with Him. That is all I got. I don’t have the Power of God, so I don’t try to act like I can use it. If you don’t choose to be in a relationship with Him, I still love you like my brother.
I understand you need to lump the entire Bible as a wholistic singular text with one singular message, and that message is used to spread hate and fear, which you disagree with. Let me let you in on a little secret: I disagree with that sentament, too. We’re not so different. I’ve gotten to the point where I’m tired of having to defend my faith, but at the same time, it’s understandable as to why because there are “false prophets” out there. There ARE those who claim to believe in Jesus and turn around and do and say things He would not approve of. There ARE those of us who use the Good News of Christ’s ressurection for fear and hate and ignorance and self-gain. And they make it harder for me to want to associate with THEM.
But at the end of the day, I realize that my relationship in the afterlife is not with man. It’s not what I am striving for. My relationship should ultimately end up with the Father. The Great Physician. The Wonderful Counselor. The Good Shepherd. I am not perfect, I don’t claim to be, I don’t allude to be. I try. Man, I try. But I still sin. Everyday. It’s a journey of perseverence, fellowship and love. So I try not to concentrate on the sins of man, because it is those same sins that bring us down. I look up to the Heavens. That’s where my eyes should be fixed on. That’s where my Christian brothers and sisters eyes should be. Unfortunately, most eyes I’ve noticed lately, has been on their posessions, their wallets and their lust for power.
That’s how I feel about it.
Posted By: Believer (Guest) on April 10, 2009 at 12:00 PM
"Sorry, but, if anyone is ignorant here, it's you, Andrew. You have no idea what you're talking about when it comes to, well, really anything that you have written.
So, the Bible isn't a "current document" as you say.. Neither is the Constitution! Are you saying we should get rid of that too?
IGNORANCE
Posted By: Spyke (Guest) on April 09, 2009 at 11:10 AM"
Umm, did you read ANYTHING he actually wrote, or did you just pick out the things by which you wanted to be offended?
I am a Christian, but I still see the difference that makes the constitution a more current document than the Bible.
The US constitution has built into it the opportunity to review, update, and amend its own laws, thereby keeping it more up-to-date with the times.
There is no amendment clause in the Bible. God will not be putting the commandments up for judicial review any time soon.
Posted By: Ben S (Guest) on April 10, 2009 at 12:27 PM
NO biblical religion isn't dying it's doing just fine.
It's Islamic Fear mongering that's making people think otherwise.
Posted By: The Rev (Guest) on April 10, 2009 at 12:38 PM
Justin (Guest) - you and others that don't bother to research Christianity but regurgitate the bullshit you've heard before should read the New Testament.
It says in Galatians that Christ came to fulfill the purpose of the Old Testament (which He did) and free us of having to live by the 602 rules set out in it (which he has).
Under Christ, we live by two laws - love God with all our hearts and to love our neighbors as God loved us. The rest of the commandments will come naturally if our faiths are true.
Posted By: Mikel (Guest) on April 10, 2009 at 01:16 PM
I gave up Christianity and have never been happier. The Bible is pure evil. I'll be spending my Easter Sunday having good sex.
Posted By: Trent (Guest) on April 10, 2009 at 02:20 PM
"I gave up Christianity and have never been happier. The Bible is pure evil. I'll be spending my Easter Sunday having good sex."
I'd be willing to bet you've never read it and I doubt you were a Christian.
Posted By: SteveC (Guest) on April 10, 2009 at 07:31 PM
Trent (Guest) - I gave up atheism for a life in Christ and I have never been happier. I'll spend my Easter praying for you.
Posted By: Mikel (Guest) on April 10, 2009 at 09:24 PM
It's not a topic on religion until Mikel comes in spewing misinformed hateful bullshit.
Mikel, you say the liberals are the ones that want to force everyone to accept their point of view as the only correct one? You're an idiot. You're proving why Christianity is on the downturn, because of people like you. People that do their best to enforce your religion on the rest of us by fucking with the law, and then when you get slapped upside the head and told "you can worship as you choose, but you can not try to force it upon others," you start screaming that your rights are being violated. No, they're not. You're being stopped from violating MY rights.
As for your claims that the coming of Christ meant that we didn't have to live under the Old Testament anymore - more bullshit. Christians love to run to the old Testament to start pulling out reasons why we should hate gay people, why women should be slaves to their husbands, etc. Either follow the book or don't follow it - picking and choosing what parts to follow makes you a laughing stock... not that you needed any more help down that road.
Posted By: Scott B (Guest) on April 10, 2009 at 10:24 PM
The Politics section of 411mania has become a haven for those who are woefully ignorant of religions in general and Christianity in particular. The non-religious here are no different from the narrow-minded fundamentalists who they supposedly oppose. And they don't even realize it.
Posted By: Karl (Guest) on April 10, 2009 at 11:37 PM
I bet Trent has more fun this Easter than Mikel.
Just saying.
Posted By: Jake G (Guest) on April 11, 2009 at 04:38 AM
Not that I want to pick a fight, Karl, but just because you believe strongly in Christianity (if that is what you do) and some of us don't doesn't make us "woefully ignorant of religions in general". I'm not. I have any number of scholarly accreditations to prove it, but this is not a pissing contest. Come, make vatic statements, leave---suit yourself. But if you want to back up something like that, it'll do the rest of us better than a good ol' "pronounce and run".
Posted By: Andytobo (Guest) on April 11, 2009 at 10:28 AM
Trent (Guest) - I gave up atheism for a life in Christ and I have never been happier. I'll spend my Easter praying for you.
Posted By: Mikel (Guest) on April 10, 2009 at 09:24 PM
Please stop preaching.
Spend that time getting laid.
Isn't Easter is based on a fertility festival (rabbits/eggs). So go and have a fuck.
Posted By: Lame (Guest) on April 11, 2009 at 05:20 PM
Whatever happened to separation of church and state?
The real problem with the beliefs of the Palins and Bushes and other practicing Christians in government is the fact that they wield their religious views in the arena of politics when our very Constitution says not to. It's one thing to be guided by the principles of one's beliefs, and totally another when it becomes a platform or is the reason for policy decisions as it so often is now. That is what the average person is rejecting, not devout Christians, but their desire to shape laws in this country and around the world based on Christian values when not every person shares those same ideals.
I don't care what Sarah Palin believes, but her platform is undeniably built more on that than any actual political views, and that is a serious problem whether you are Christian or not. It's far more important that the people we appoint to serve our interests, especially at the highest level, are well educated rather than whether or not they go to church every Sunday. At the end of the day, when you push that button on election day, that stuff isn't supposed to matter.
Posted By: Guest#3438 (Guest) on April 11, 2009 at 05:48 PM
Lame (Guest) - your name sums up the worthiness of your comment
Posted By: Mikel (Registered) on April 11, 2009 at 11:20 PM
The pathetic comments directed at me represent the fundamental motivation of atheists.
It has nothing to do with separation of church and state - it's just another childish excuse to attack the beliefs of those who do not blindly pander to the liberal/atheist mentality.
It's so pathetic, its laughable. Do you really feel so weak and minuscule in your own lives that you are driven to this? Are your trying to show how tough you are to your 13 yr old girlfriend?
Does the bully pick on you at school - sending you home to cry in your batman pillow?
Does your wife have your nuts in a bowl and make you feel like the little men you act like?
I have never felt more pity for such a group as I have at this point of time.
Posted By: Mikel (Registered) on April 11, 2009 at 11:35 PM
Lame (Guest) - your name sums up the worthiness of your comment
Posted By: Mikel (Registered) on April 11, 2009 at 11:20 PM
He does have a point though.
The world would be much better if people had more good sex.
Posted By: Heyyo (Guest) on April 11, 2009 at 11:42 PM
The explanation that the Old Testament's crazy laws don't apply any more because of the death of Christ doesn't really fly. I've never been to any church that didn't reference lessons and teaching from the Old Testament liberally. I mean, the friggin' Ten Commandments are in the Old Testament, and I've NEVER heard a church say that these don't really apply any more. So this is what makes people outside of Christianity angry. Are you using the Old Testement or not? If it's just historical, and mostly for Jews, then quit referencing it all the time. I'm all for the view that the New Testament is the way to go. As an Atheist, I find Christ's message a lot more palatable than the blood and guts, wrathful god Jehovah in the Old Testament, but every time I run into an issue where I disagree with religious people, it seems like the Old Testament is where they are getting their arguments from.
Posted By: xjuggernaughtx (Guest) on April 12, 2009 at 12:16 AM
I was happy when Sarah Palin was introduced as John Mccain's running mate because her background wasn't in DC. The possibility of having a VP who wasn't in the House or Senate prior to their election seemed like a good thing to me. The other three candidates were all standing Senators. If the nation had flip-flopped on what kind of change it wanted and gone with Mccain I would be curious to know if the same type of pork barrel projects and insider moves would have been allowed in the stimulus. Now, because Mccain would be calling the shots there is a good chance things would have ended up the same in this area... but I'm still curious. As Palin has been in the public limelight more and more I am finding myself doubting her ability to adequately do the job. Things will have to drastically change by 2012 for me to vote for her.
Posted By: Obrie007 (Guest) on April 12, 2009 at 09:54 AM
So many comments about the Bible but how many of those making the comments have actually read it?
To understand the Bible you have to read it all as it's a progression of humanity and "our" relationship with the eternal God.
Understand that Jesus came to FULFILL THE REQUIREMENTS OF THE LAW is different than saying he did away with the Law.
The Law will Judges us but believe in Jesus Christ and his righteousness is what grace is all about.
It all flows together, however where the problems come is when someone sees something in the Bible and either blows it up and makes a whole movement based on it (Snake handlers) or when some see things in it that convicts them and decide it's "garbage".
We can't have it both ways people. We have to accept we are created beings designed with free will to have a relationship with the one who created us. We are not the masters of the universe who do what we want with no consequences.
I do appreciate Believer however, that is the kind of Christianity I aspire too but sometimes fall short of.
However I am promised that his mercy is new every morning.
Posted By: Guest#8036 (Guest) on April 13, 2009 at 06:37 AM
*sigh*
Our flawed human circuitry enables us to continue to seperate ourselves from proper fellowship by labelling each other. Until we understand that, we will ALWAYS be short of the glory of God.
Jesus is neither liberal or conservative. He doesn’t hate Muslims. He doesn’t hate homosexuals. He doesn’t hate ANYONE. He is not wrapped up in or favors the American flag. He doesn’t need to cater to anyone. And we are to be LIKE HIM. And we’re not. We really, truly are not. And it saddens me to no end that we hate each other so much.
Done. Period. End of discussion.
Posted By: JESUS Walks... (Guest) on April 13, 2009 at 12:03 PM