Tea Parties II: Civil Discourse
Posted by Andrew Tobolowsky on 04.18.2009
Who's really on what side?
I did some thinking while watching these tea party things and I realized I am not being fair—I've divided the world between Conservatives and Liberals.
The fact of the matter is, despite a true media blitz from Fox News—who often called in the FNC Tea Parties—there really weren't that many people there. And I really doubt that even twenty percent of America believes something so dumb as the things being shouted by those people.
Doesn't need to be dealt with in some long, drawn out post. Just some things that need to be said.
If your voices aren't being heard in Washington, there are two potential reasons for it. The first is, yes, that the person in charge is a high-handed autocrat. The second possibility is that you LOST AN ELECTION. Your views were VOTED DOWN. They are not being run roughshod over, they are IN THE MINORITY.
Since that is extremely obviously what happened, as it is what happens with exact regularity every four to eight years, it is hard to imagine what twisted psyche would read into this fascism. Yes, the government doesn't agree with you. Because the majority doesn't agree with you.
Hard as it may be to believe, you can have lots of people who believe something and still not have MORE people than exist on the other side of things. This happens, sometimes, in a process known as democracy. You are under no obligation to take these things with grace. The difference between fascism and this is that Obama was legally elected and invested with these powers to do these things that have since have been passed through congress.
There is a difference between you not liking something and it being evil and despotic. There's no point in arguing about this, because there's no good argument to make for the other side. The majority voted for this, wants this, and that's how America works. Sorry.
But I think that I need to apologize for calling THAT conservatism, because it's not. Conservatives want smaller government, and a more congenial environment for businesses. As shown by the numbers who showed up at these tea parties, these whack jobs are basically on their own.
So I wanted to take a minute to applaud some Republicans who, in recent weeks, have done or said things I really respect.
Kudos, for example, to Bernard Goldberg, a frequent guest on Hannity's show who quite literally wrote the book on Republicans disgusted with liberal love for Obama—"A slobbering love affair. Hannity was criticizing Obama for the sniper-pirate incident, which is the sort of behavior that makes his show so difficult to watch—when
Goldberg pointed out that no one wins when one side finds some way to criticize EVERYTHING the other side does. That being petty, is, in fact counter productive.
I really respect this. If I had my druthers over the sort of things my arguing pardners would say, it would be something very close to: "I don't like his economic policies, I don't like his tax policies… but I'm not going to be like the left was with George Bush and criticize everything he does."
Other favorite quotes, for those who don't want to read the whole article:
"He gets -- if you want to use the word, "credit," I'll use that word. He was the commander-in-chief, it happened on his watch, that's the way it goes in the real world of politics. If something bad happened here, and thank God it didn't, but if something bad happened here, I'll guarantee you, I'll tell you who would be leading the crusade against him, you, and you may have been right, if something bad happened, you may have said this is because he's seen as soft and they took advantage of him. You might have been right. But it didn't. Look, Sean, the good guy is alive and well."
"You remember when liberals wouldn't give George Bush credit for anything? If he came up with a cure for cancer, they wouldn't have given him credit for that, and, I'm sorry Sean, I see that on the right now. it's like -- I don't want to put Barack Obama on Mount Rushmore for simply being the commander-in-chief, but we have to stop going out of our way to find fault with every single thing he does."
Let the record show that Andrew Tobolowsky has no problem being disagreed with, with integrity.
Kudos to Bobby Jindal, who earlier made news for saying he didn't see why it isn't okay to say that he wants Obama to fail—a stance I wholeheartedly agree with. If you don't like what Obama's doing, you want him to fail. Makes complete sense to me.
This time, he's coming out with a superbly balanced message . A) He thinks it's great that Obama is repairing relations with foreign countries, but wishes he drew some harder lines in the sand—Jindal wants more substance and backbone in Obama's foreign policy, and for us to put some of the onus of reform on our allies, rather than taking it all ourselves. B) Jindal pointed out that it's foolish to cast aspersions on the president's patriotism or suggest that he is not going to do his best to keep us safe, but that doesn't mean he needs to be agreed with on how to do that.
And kudos even to Mitt Romney who—although he gave new meaning to the term flip-flopper during his campaign—was also willing to admit that ""I also think its important for us to nod to the president when he's right," and personally applauded the president for standing up to the auto industry--even as he criticized the mandate the president acts with.
Because the truth of the matter is this kind of behavior is better for everyone. It should be this way for the
sake of the country ESPECIALLY if you don't like what Obama's doing--critiques are most useful and most likely to have effect when they are not adulterated by seeming to come from a need to criticize.
In other words, if you have the personal discipline to want to be taken seriously rather than allow yourself the pleasure of spewing whatever bile you can think of to spew, it behooves YOU to behave as these three men have done this week. Respect where it is due, acknowledgement of good works—these position your critiques to be heard by more than the circle jerk which started the tea parties.
We can all learn from these three men. Neither side has a monopoly on good sense and good plans. Only those who can admit that need apply to be heard.
I STILL don't see how the president failing thing could be such a large stupid issue. It could be solved SO EASILY!
If a President has policies that if they don't work, the country will fail, YOU WANT THE COUNTRY TO FAIL FOR POLITICAL GAIN. That is at least how the Rush Limbaughs of the world sound. If they don't want to sound that way they need to REWORD their discontent, and say they want him to fail at his political agendas. Instead of them just being stubborn and not even wanting to concede a rewording, why not rephrase and better get your own point across? It's things like this that infuriate me about BOTH sides. Because the democrats mostly know what they actually mean, but hate the rhetoric. So they address the thing the republicans DON'T mean, because they're stubborn. I love Obama, and I'm glad he's staying out of it, but congress is an epic failure.
Posted By: James (Registered) (Guest) on April 18, 2009 at 12:28 AM
"Hard as it may be to believe, you can have lots of people who believe something and still not have MORE people than exist on the other side of things. This happens, sometimes, in a process known as democracy. "
tell that to the pro-gay marriage movement in California. They lost the election to have a constitutional amendment saying marriage is between a man a woman, but they continue to fight it in court. And the prop, 8 I believe, is not in it's working anti-gay. It never says that gay people can't get married. I just says that only a man and a woman can be married. The same rights everyone has. That is equality. Like it or not. I personally hate it when people who live in America constantly bad mouth it. If you hate america so much, get out! I don't know the origin of the following quote, and it may be slightly off, but I truely believe it, "I may disagree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it"
Posted By: dan (Guest) on April 18, 2009 at 01:20 AM
I got no problems paying taxes. It's more about how it's being spent. And taxes effect everyone not just republicans so i wouldn't be surprised if there were also some democrats there.
and i didn't read your column because it doesnt matter what anyone says everyone will end up arguing like always and we'll still be where we are now with the same opinions ready to argue some more.
Posted By: Guest#0964 (Guest) on April 18, 2009 at 02:10 AM
I think you confuse America wanting change with conservatism being "voted down". I believe in a lot of the things conservatism stands for because I believe in personal rights, and responsibilities. But, after eight years of George Bush policies I too understood the nation was ready for a change in course. The pendulum of public opinion swing back and forth between conservative and liberal (which is a good thing because this ensures we never go too far either way). Oh... and by the way.... if wanting what the "majority" wanted was how this country was run, gay marriage would be a dead issue in many of the states it's being contested in. The majority of people vote it down, yet somehow the other side finds a way to get what they want still. Before you start calling me a hate filled Republican I have my own views on marriage vs. civil unions that would allow the whole issue to be resolved so please don't get off track with responses to that statement.... it was only made to show that the majority opinion doesn't always win.
The whole idea of the tea parties is not the 1950's "Red Scare" against socialism that detractors make it out to be. People are just tired of how much the government is in our pocketbooks, either directly or indirectly. Social Security taxes, Medicare, Federal Tax, State Tax, County Tax, City Tax, Property Tax, Sales Tax, Inheritance Tax, and Capital Gains Tax are all taxes I have paid in the past year. Now the government is looking for additional revenue because of the bad economy (not belt tightening like a normal household has to do) and is going to either raise taxes or find an alternate source (such as energy taxes in the form of carbon credits or something of that nature) that will only be passed onto the consumer in the form of higher prices. This is the problem I personally have with how the government is operating. It never tries to be more efficient, just bigger, more bloated, and slower to act.
The tea parties were successful where I live. They had 500+ people show up in towns of 1000 all over my state. If you want to discount what these people were trying to do... go ahead. The opposing viewpoint is only going to grow as people get tired of a government that wants more and more. Socialism is not necessarily where we are headed, but people don't like what they see and they want us to steer away from getting anywhere near it.
Posted By: Obrie007 (Guest) on April 18, 2009 at 06:24 AM
The people who are protesting would protest President Obama no matter what he did. He was criticized for not taking action in the Coast of Somalia situation. Then after he takes action the assertion is made that he got away with taking action because of the color of this skin. The corporations don’t like the new tax code and they’re using this personal resentment towards President Obama to preserve their profits.
Posted By: Guest#5479 (Guest) on April 18, 2009 at 07:26 AM
You really are a moron! Democrats, Republicans, Libertarians, and Constitutionalists were present at the tea parties! And because FOX was the only news agency there, you want to put it down! I bet if CNN or MSNBC did something similar, you'd be all for it!
You're a pathetically brainwashed liberal who can't see the wool being pulled over your eyes!
We need to end and audit the Federal Reserve, end the IRS, end the income tax, reign in spending, return the stolen TRILLIONS from the Fed to the people, and shrink the government down!
Watch this and educate yourself:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eAaQNACwaLw
Oh, and just because people are in a minority, it doesn't make them not matter! Look at the American Revolution! George Washington LOST almost every battle against the British, but he endured and eventually WON the WAR! You need to study history!
Obama and his people are sounding more and more like Mussolini, Hitler, Stalin, Lenin, etc.!
Unfortunately, most of our schools only teach propaganda.. And most students fail history class! Now we are repeating the mistakes of the past.
Posted By: Spyke (Guest) on April 18, 2009 at 08:56 AM
"Not many people there"
Over 700 Tea Parties in the USA, over 40 in California alone. Yeah, not too many. From what I've read there have been anywhere from 200 to 17,000 people at each tea party. If these rallies were about anything else such as anti-war protests or what have you, I gurantee the media would have been all over it, covering it constantly like they did the "Million Man March"
Something to think about
Posted By: hmmm (Guest) on April 18, 2009 at 09:45 AM
"And I really doubt that even twenty percent of America believes something so dumb as the things being shouted by those people."
"The second possibility is that you LOST AN ELECTION. Your views were VOTED DOWN. They are not being run roughshod over, they are IN THE MINORITY."
Andrew the nest time you argue about gay marriage I will quote you on this. You have done this before- its a civil rights violation for gays, who are a minority, to be prevented from getting married- even after an election...you considered it a civil rights violation.
But when conservatives, who make up half this country, voice their opinion about how taxes are being spent by the federal government they should simply accept that they lost and say nothing?
Why didn’t you tell that to gays after they lost Prop 8 and started trying to riot and protest?
And I'm using this gay marriage thing as an example of your hypocrisy- I don't give a shit if gays marry or not.
"The difference between fascism and this is that Obama was legally elected and invested with these powers to do these things that have since have been passed through congress."
This is my problem with people like you and Obama being legally elected- Obama works for the people, his contract with us is the Bill of Rights and the Constitution of the United State-
Obama, and his congress, have already made a mockery of that contract...they have attacked 1st and 2nd amendments with bogus reports on "conservative extremist" being a broad base of people who believe in single issue topics- such as pro-life, gun control, and military service...they have made false statistics to reintroduce the Brady Bill to go after our right to bare arms.
After tax money went into the hands of bailout bank executives- Obama and congress tried to get the money back by taxing 90% of that income- ignoring the 4th amendment that says that the federal government can't garnish unfair sums money without legal reason from a citizen not convicted of a crime...then they still tried without the right to due process until someone pointed out the problem.
Obama has not followed up on any campaign promise- have you not noticed how he signs a bill to huge fanfare one day- GITMO or Stem Cell funding- only to find out that the contents of the bill are complete bullshit days, or weeks later?
He's playing you. If Obama ran on a platform of "change" and he has not changed anything- why are you defending him?
He's a Chicago politician with a brilliant speech writer and the media who wanted to cover the first black president in his pocket...
The tea parties are played down by the news agencies that support Obama...they would rather cover the story about Obama's dog- which he also lied about. It’s not a rescue.
Posted By: The Spook (Guest) on April 18, 2009 at 09:49 AM
"It never says that gay people can't get married. It just says that only a man and a woman can be married. The same rights everyone has. That is equality"
This is the dumbest thing I have ever read. Ever.
Posted By: Ed (Guest) on April 18, 2009 at 10:55 AM
Taxes aren't the issue. They are a part of the problem. The problem being a runaway government that is getting way too large and too controlling of its citizens. Yes, we are living in the utopia of socialism.
Luckily it will get voted out in 2010 and 2012.
Posted By: Michael (Guest) on April 18, 2009 at 11:07 AM
Spyke, simmer the fuck down already. Grownups are trying to talk.
You piss off liberals because you're an annoying idiot. You piss off conservatives for the same reason plus you're making them look bad.
Posted By: Zingy (Guest) on April 18, 2009 at 01:35 PM
Just a thought: The Spook comes off as far more intelligent than Spyke. Regarding this article, I think we should all step back and let others have their views. Disagreement creates better ideas, so intelligent debate should be incouraged, not name calling.
Posted By: Zachary (Guest) on April 18, 2009 at 04:26 PM
The Spook IS more intelligent than Spyke.
On gay marriage, it's a faulty comparison because it is a denial of natural human rights. Denial of equality. If it were something like slavery, just because it was voted for or against wouldn't mean the government actually had a right to take away someone's right not to be enslaved. They could pass a law, but it would still be against---well--the declaration of independence.
I recognize that I am not the right person to tell the Republican party it has lost its way. I don't have credibility for that because I'm a liberal on most issues.
There is nothing wrong with being a republican or republicanism. It's a good philosophy. As I clearly said above.
It is perfectly okay to not want more taxes, or to resent government growing larger. That makes perfect sense.
However, the number of people claiming the government is FASCIST is not a point worth respect, consideration, or intelligent discussion. And that's something I think 80% of people would agree with me on.
So what I wanted to do with this column was kind of take that kind of talk OFF the Republican tab, so they don't have to pay for it. It's actually, I think, good for the Republican party,that someone tries to make that distinction. I never forget, and I know the rest of you don't, that I might be wrong--just one man's opinion..
Posted By: Andrew Tobolowsky (Registered) on April 18, 2009 at 06:21 PM
**The second possibility is that you LOST AN ELECTION. Your views were VOTED DOWN. They are not being run roughshod over, they are IN THE MINORITY.**
But the views of the Tea Party participants WEREN'T voted down. How many times did then-Senator Obama promise a balanced budget? How many times did he criticize President Bush for running a deficit?
In the third debate, Obama said, "what I've done throughout this campaign is to propose a net spending cut.... What I want to emphasize ... is that I have been a strong proponent of pay-as-you-go. Every dollar that I've proposed, I've proposed an additional cut so that it matches." I was never a fan of how he proposed to match these dollars (even assuming that his tax-the-employers scheme would bring in the revenue he thought it would), but to say that the views of those who don't want massive deficits were "voted down" just doesn't stand up to scrutiny.
[Video of his promise during the debate is available at http://volokh.com/posts/1235664195.shtml]
Posted By: Stephen Feher (Guest) on April 18, 2009 at 06:40 PM
Conservatives really need to shut the fuck up - you had your chance and in 8 years you did enough damage to set us back 30 years. You ruined our reputation and had a bigger hand than the Dems in ruining our country. You had your chance and failed miserably - The Bush Dynasty is over and the last chance at saving the empire has begun. If Obama fails we fail, period. He is the last and only hope we have and if you don't like him that's too bad because he got 9 million more votes than the other guy. So yea conservatives you fucked up and now you need to shut the fuck up.
Posted By: Libertarian (Guest) on April 18, 2009 at 07:39 PM
All hail Jeb Bush in 2012, putting change back on the agenda.
Posted By: Guest#7878 (Guest) on April 18, 2009 at 09:42 PM
Oh super, the awesome Libertarians. What in the hell have you guys EVER fucking done? Here's your chance to shine..don't fumble the ball.
Posted By: SteveC (Guest) on April 18, 2009 at 09:56 PM
Within the walls of this political discussion, I always try to remain respectful...and I will continue that now.
I think that it IS wise to show respect to Obama and what he has done well and wise. However, disagreeing with his policies, which look nothing like his campaign promises AND look exactly like his campaign promises (promising fiscal responsibility AND raising taxes on those above %250,000, knowing full well he could never deliver fiscal responsiblity that he promsied within the programs he promised that way, for example) is neither wishing America to fail or him to fail. I hope Obama is right. I hope that Obama can change our country's fiscal and ecconomic crisis doing what he is doing. However, it has always been our duty and right as Americans to understand as many of our government's policies, agree or disagree with them, and then rally to get someone else elected if we so choose.
This idea that disagreeing with our President, or even wishing him to fail, equates with wishing our country to fail is hogwash.
As a side comment, I think the juxtaposition that is happening over our political horizon is simply fascinating, if not a bit nauseating. Some of the major misteps that Obama has made would have caused a MAJOR uproar if it were President Bush. He would have been seriously ridiculed for his alleged stupidity and brashness, but Obama gets the benefit of seven or eight doubts And instead of giving him the benefit of the doubt, there are many who are criticizing him left and right, without any thought to how democratic they might sound.
Final thought...for those of who who believe we shoudl support the president no matter what, why didn't you support President Bush no matter what?
It's true - there are a lot of shoes fitting on other feet right now.
Posted By: Stephen (Guest) on April 19, 2009 at 05:23 AM
When The Spook pisses off people, you put down Spook.. When I piss people off, you put me down.. Basically, whenever you act like an idiot and someone calls you on it, you call us "neo-cons", "racists", and "idiots".
And I guarantee you this: When this country becomes a fascist nation, I will only have four words for you... "I told you so."
Posted By: Spyke (Guest) on April 19, 2009 at 09:35 AM
"Taxes aren't the issue. They are a part of the problem. The problem being a runaway government that is getting way too large and too controlling of its citizens. Yes, we are living in the utopia of socialism.
Luckily it will get voted out in 2010 and 2012.
Posted By: Michael (Guest) on April 18, 2009 at 11:07 AM"
I would argue against that Michael, unless of course you are going to vote a third party in. The damage was started by and pushed by both parties. They differ over individual points, but both seem hell bent on making sure their way is the only way, and damn the rights or laws that came before. The fact that it is only speeding up is an indictment against the two party system, not an endorsement of either party.
Posted By: null2099 (Guest) on April 19, 2009 at 10:12 AM
Hey Spyke, You have to realise people like Andrew only cares about protests when its gay people or code pink.
Andrew only cares about election results when his candidate or cause wins.Otherwise, its off to the courts.
People like Andrew will look down on you if you cross the mighty liberal messiah.It does not matter what argument you make,he will say people like Sarah Palin are "the worst person in the world" but Obama is "awesome"
Finally, why get bent out of shape by a guy who views hundreds of thousands of people legally protesting policies they disagree with as a "circle jerk" Something Andrew probably is a expert at.
Posted By: John (Guest) on April 19, 2009 at 10:05 PM
"And I guarantee you this: When this country becomes a fascist nation, I will only have four words for you... "I told you so.""
Great, see ya then!
Posted By: Scotty H (Guest) on April 19, 2009 at 10:31 PM
I don't have a problem with the tea parties. I'm disappointed that Fox chose to co-opt them to some extent. It amuses me that people think Fox stuck their nose into the Tea Party because they are the "right wing network". Fox pounced on the Tea Party phenomenon because it was good for business. And while I think the cheerleading went too far, I don't really think it's much worse than the open-mocking and spinning of the events other NEWS organizations engaged in.
"In other words, if you have the personal discipline to want to be taken seriously rather than allow yourself the pleasure of spewing whatever bile you can think of to spew, it behooves YOU to behave as these three men have done this week. Respect where it is due, acknowledgement of good works—these position your critiques to be heard by more than the circle jerk which started the tea parties."
The left spent the last 8 years training everyone else how to be a squeaky wheel. "Obama = Fascist" is no better than "Bush = Hitler", but it reminds me of that old anti-drug add:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y-Elr5K2Vuo
"Father: Who taught you how to do this stuff?
Son: You, alright? I learned it by watching you!"
Also, "circle jerk", Andrew? Really? What does that add to YOUR critique?
Posted By: lol (Guest) on April 19, 2009 at 11:11 PM
I thought it was a great weakness in the election, and I'm guess it's going to bite Obama in the ass in the short term. I was very irritated that he ran on this balanced budget and pay as you go platfrom, when it was very obvious that we were in deep financial trouble and that it wasn't going to be possible without significant tax increases and service decreases.
I mean, after 8 years of Bush's disasterous financial free for all, how was Obama going to waltz in and take care of it? Even when the full threat of financial meltdown was happening, Obama still talked about balanced budgets and fiscal discipline. And now he's spending more than probably any president ever.
I don't think this is a bad idea, mind you. The economy does need to get moving again, but it looks bad when you've promised to do just the opposite. It wasn't like he was blindsided by the economic downturn. He knew it was coming.
I really wish he had said during the election that he wouldn't try to do all the things that he originally said. That he would just focus on a few really important things, and pick up the rest once America was back on it's feet again. Instead, he pretended that he was still going to be able to handle everything.
This opened the door for the conservative wing.
Posted By: xjuggernaughtx (Guest) on April 20, 2009 at 04:09 PM
STAY CURRENT