Boy Scout Memories: Knots, Camping, and Taking Down Illegal Immigrants
Posted by J. Alexander Mitchell on 05.15.2009
"Be Prepared" has a Whole New Meaning...
The Boy Scouts have had a program in place for decades that assisted young scouts in learning about varying career fields through practical, hands-on experience. This program, Exploring involves actual training in a number of endeavors, including aviation, engineering, law, the arts, and law enforcement. The latter training area has been the subject of a New York Times article, "Scouts Train To Fight Terrorists, and More" . The following is an excerpt from this article:
Ten minutes into arrant mayhem in this town near the Mexican border, and the gunman, a disgruntled Iraq war veteran, has already taken out two people, one slumped in his desk, the other covered in blood on the floor.
The responding officers — eight teenage boys and girls, the youngest 14 — face tripwire, a thin cloud of poisonous gas and loud shots — BAM! BAM! — fired from behind a flimsy wall. They move quickly, pellet guns drawn and masks affixed.
"United States Border Patrol! Put your hands up!" screams one in a voice cracking with adolescent determination as the suspect is subdued."
In the year 2009, it would appear that "Be Prepared" has a whole new meaning.
This specific branch of the Explorer's program involves training exercises such as how to properly run down an illegal border crosser and how to deal with an "active shooter" scenario such as the Virginia Tech shooter. Programs like this are often sponsored by local police departments and other more expansive agencies such the Federal Bureau of Investigation. These agencies make no bones about the fact that they see it as a recruitment tool; one Border Patrol spokesperson is quoted in the article as saying "Our end goal is to create more agents".
Upon first viewing of this article, I salivated. The thought of such a crazy idea was perfect for a politics article. The titles flashed in my head like visions of sugar plums: "Boy Scouts Learn To Run Down The Border Jumpers!", "Knot Badge? Check! Fire Badge? Check! Shot A Terrorist Badge? Check!", and my favorite, "Be Prepared… To Eat Hot Lead!". However, with the exception of one guy quoted as thinking that a Middle Eastern terrorist would wear traditional Arab dress (has he been to an airport? That's a GUARANTEED way to get stopped and checked), this sounds like a pretty decent idea.
Yes, I know that I am a political blogger on 411. I'm supposed to bitch about something. That's how it works – news is reported, and then I slash it to pieces. In fact, as a just-a-touch-left-of-center-sixty-percent-of-the-time writer, I am supposed to find some fault in this seemingly right-wing youth fantasy. As I mentioned above, when I began writing, this appealed to me more and more, not unlike the Service America Act. Isn't it considered a good thing to get kids excited about future careers, particularly one that is as generally unappreciated as law enforcement?
Big thumbs up to the Explorer's Posts from me.
Quick Hits:
Speaking of the Service America Act, it passed. I was unaware of this, as I assumed I would find out about it from the mass screams from conservatives about the mandatory service required by this program. Of course, the fact that it isn't mandatory may explain the lack of screams.
President Obama will re-open military tribunals for Guantanemo Bay prisoners. In response to the problems with former President Bush's similar tribunals, he differentiated his by saying "We're talking about a justice system that had 500 people whose cases were overturned by DNA evidence. I seen a tape where five cops beat up a n---- and they said that they had a reasonable doubt. I got my doubts too! All right? How come they never found Biggie and Tupac's murderers, but they could arrest O.J. the next day. Nicole Simpson can't rap! I want Justice!" Scratch that – Dave Chapelle said that, and I am fairly certain that our President would NEVER echo those sentiments.
"The fact is, she either didn't do her job, or she did do her job and she's now afraid to tell the truth."
"She dishonors the Congress by her behavior…"
"Speaker Pelosi's the big loser..."
Really… there is no following up that sort of performance.
People Read Me! Woo-Hoo!
I am rather pleased with the number of comments that I have gotten, and I hope that what I write makes you, the reader, laugh (hopefully) or think (maybe). As well, I hope that we can actually create a dialogue of sorts between varying sides that don't necessarily agree. I am trying not to respond to each and every comment, so I think I will end with a response to one or two. Yes, I am stealing this from JP Prag.
"Some people feel threated by being around other types of people.
It's natural...the problem is that you dumb fucks are trying to regulate human nature to the point that it's making everyone crazy.
If I don't like being around gay people because it freaks me out than let me be freaked out- but forcing me to not be freaked out causes me to freak out more...and that's an example.
If some old man who grew up in the 40s and 50s does not like black people regulating that won't help anyone...
Just let people be who they want to be and tolerate it- let gays be gay, let blacks be blacks, let bigots be bigots...
The political correctness taddle tell bullshit is going to fucking get our country taken over."
I should, perhaps, clarify my position. In discussing the "tinge" (that feeling that occurs when one is experiencing covert racism), I did not mean to imply that I think something should be legally done about it. I was citing that this feeling gets in the way of becoming a conservative based on certain parts of functional conservativism in America. If someone hates me because I am Black, than that is fine.Call me the names from the mountaintops. It is not a problem until they ACT on it, be it refusing to hire a Black person even though that person is qualified for a position or spray-painting "N----R" across a Black person's home (which, for the record, does still occur in fairly recent times).
I got this comment from Brad:
You feel a 'tinge'? Fuck you. You live in the most equal society ever devised by man and you bitch because some paranoid women hold their purses closer to them when you're around? You know when I got my 'tinge'? When I graduated high school with a .35 higher GPA than the highest graduating black student, and she got a full-ride scholarship to Baylor and I got nothing. Not a single grant. I got the same 'tinge' when I got on a scholarship search database and put in 'straight white male' and got NOTHING on that search criteria that went to white males only. But when I put in 'female', 'homosexual', or 'African American', the specialized scholarships flowed in by the pages. I also get the 'tinge' when I get called racist because I won't give a customer her pizza for free after she lies to me about how long she's been waiting (happens about a dozen times a week, with about 7 regular customers that my boos refuses to cancel service to, because, you guessed it, he doesn't want to be called a racist. It's also nice to not get tipped by the black customers who tip the black drivers. A really pleasant experience.
First off, I am sorry that not getting into Baylor has forced you to become a pizza delivery guy. I would highly recommend a community college of some sort for higher education. Even better, you could get a spiffy new Pell Grant with a higher amount courtesy of President Obama, rather than whine about a lack of specialized scholarships for White males.
It is always dangerous to apply the situations of the individual to the situations of a group. For example, Blacks in the United States make less money (approximately 77%) than whites do for the same job with the same education. That is the situation of the group. However, if you are White and reading this, you probably make less money than Oprah Winfrey. That is the situation of the individual. I'm sorry your individual scenario occurred, but that does not take away from the plight of the group. Or, to rephrase, I will see your $5000 or so a year you may be losing in tips as a White pizza delivery driver and raise you the $10,000 that a Black degreed professional gets underpaid… multiplied by the thousands of underpaid Black degreed professionals.
Allow me to be more direct and less snarky – this is not a contest of pain. This is not a question of who has taken the most abuse. If it were, I think lifetime abuse award goes to the trials and tribulations of the Jewish community (though is we only look at a 500 year or so block, I think the Middle Passage / slavery trade / slavery in the US combo is a contender). The fact that one person has been wronged does not mean it is okay to wrong a different person.
"The fact that one person has been wronged does not mean it is okay to wrong a different person."
So your next column is going to be an apology to the citizens of Iraq, right?
Posted By: GaryML (Guest) on May 15, 2009 at 05:32 PM
"Even better, you could get a spiffy new Pell Grant with a higher amount courtesy of [the American Taxpayer], rather than whine about a lack of specialized scholarships for White males."
I fixed that for you. Unless Obama is financing those grants out of his book proceeds, then it's not "courtesy" anything on his part.
Oh, and I'm sure Brad couldn't possibly be delivering pizzas to suplement the lack of scholarship money he was offered. Because all white folks are rich as shit and never face economic hardship. Ever.
Btw, is "covert racism" like "covert Marxism"? Let's convene a House Racist Activities Comittee to ferret out all these closet racists!
Oh, on a side note, are you going to source this stat...
"For example, Blacks in the United States make less money (approximately 77%) than whites do for the same job with the same education."
...or is it like all those jobs Obama is "saving" using vodoo employment calculus?
Posted By: lol (Guest) on May 15, 2009 at 06:56 PM
Not to sound pro the "bad guys" in history. But I feel a dictatorship is the only way to go. Just no boncentration bamps (monty python reference there).
Posted By: AG Awesome (Guest) on May 15, 2009 at 11:04 PM
Man I like that "this is not a pain competition" lots. In the enormous list of things that count as "useless dialogue, which nevertheless is considered valid by most" is this idea that if A) everyone is suffering some, it doesn't matter that somebody is specifically suffering and B) that one must be silent about one's troubles so long as someone can prove that someone else has had it worse.
If someone came up to me with a sad story, I would feel sympathy for them, I would listen to them, I would attempt to help them. This would be too regardless of whether I had suffered worse, or less. Because we are all trying to help each other in this life which is hard enough on its own.
Black people get the short stick in America. Not the only short stick. It's also true that in attempting to correct this, some deserving white folks don't get uquivalent opportunity. Both of these things can be true, and are at the same time.
I am a Jew. Sixty five years ago,younger than most of your grandparents, a nation tried to destroy my people. This does not make me less sympathetic when a friend of mine has a frustrating day because the copier was broken.
Posted By: Andrew Tobolowsky (Registered) on May 16, 2009 at 01:54 AM
J. Alexander Mitchell,
I guess your arm is tired for effectively b****-slapping those two critics. Eitherway, I bet those people live in an all white community, and they never witnessed racism first hand.
When I was in high school, my friends would be degraded by their "superior" white classmates. I would think to myself, how can people be this ignorant? When a people express blatant disregard for intelligent thought, they should be euthanized on the spot. We need to clean up the gene pool!
--Some people, like Brad and The Spook, are prime examples of suitable sacrifices. /sarcasm
Honestly, I have to TRY to be as closed-minded as them. It takes a lot to pretend to be that ignorant. I actually felt my IQ drop a few points. That actually explains why The Spook sometimes needs to saturate his posts with profanity....
Posted By: David (Guest) on May 16, 2009 at 07:57 AM
Ditto what lol said about the supposed pay discrepancy. That's like how they always say women make 80 cents on the dollar, ignoring that women work fewer hours and tend not to seek advancement as much as men. If a black man's job is in Detroit, somewhere in the Deep South, etc., of course he won't make as much as an equivalent worker in NY or California. J Alexander, you make it sound like if I walked into an office and a white man and a black man had the same title with the same resume and experience, the black man's salary would be lower. There is no evidence that's true. As for bigotry in general, I don't care what's in some moron's head as long as it stays there.
Scholarships that dance around saying "white men need not apply" are racist. Going out of your way to exclude people is never positive. The notion that white people had certain advantages in the past, so now black individuals should be handed advantages today is wrong. At its heart affirmative action is saying history makes it less likely black kids will start life well off, and that should be corrected. I disagree because EVERYONE deserves the same opportunities. Good public schools for all as well as access to scholarships and student loans (that's LOANS, not handouts) provide a level playing field. Beyond that it's up to your parents to give you an advantage. If you are in a single parent home, have ten siblings, neither parent finished high school, whatever, that's not for government to correct. You are entitled to an opportunity at success, how you use it is up to you.
As for the "tinge", being lilly white hasn't exempted me from subtle yet obvious racism. I feel no need to elaborate, just know that no one group has that market cornered, and Andrew made an excellent point about comparing sob stories.
Posted By: Shockmaster (Guest) on May 16, 2009 at 11:51 AM
You're right David, I curse so that your IQ could drop...
I can call you a dumbfuck and you actually turn into a dumbfuck.
I love your point of "bitch slapping critics" or "euthanizing" people who don't treat you nice in school...
But you call me "close minded"- when the my entire post that Mitchell is cherry picking from is ranting about the need for tolerance over political correctness.
You are a dumbshit David.
If you want to know why I sprinkle curse words into my posts all you have to do is ask Pee Wee.
The answer is real simple, I like to curse- and it makes me laugh to call people torpedo tits, dicknose and fuckstick.
I don't do it to be mature about anything- I do it because its immature and nothing that is ever discussed on a 411mania comments board will ever be written into state law or US policy.
So go back and suck your thumb David, and explain to all of us how wanting to euthanize kids who picked on you is not close minded...
Or listening to people who disagree with your thoughts will make you even more stupid than you already are.
Fucking arrogant dumb mother fucker- how do you not see the very thing you are bitching about in your own writing?
And you're right I've never witnessed racisim- not once, ever. Because I'm white. And just because I'm white I've never seen racisim- until you made that clearly racist remark.
Way to look stupid Pee Wee.
Posted By: The Spook (Guest) on May 16, 2009 at 12:01 PM
What Brad was explaining isn't just some isolated incident. It happens all the time, every single day here in America. You wanna talk about racism? How about the black community in Chicago now boycotting any business that isn't run by and specifically serving blacks?!
It's amazing how these minority groups always cry out for equality, and then when they get it, they become the very thing that they were fighting against: racists!
I have met more black racists in the past few years than I have ever known white.
I posted a blog this past week about what's happening in Chicago. They're taking 5 steps backward instead of moving forward.
I'm Irish. My ancestors came to America and were treated like absolute SHIT! But ya know what? I don't consider myself Irish-American.. I am American.. pure and simple. When the rest of the racial and philosophical groups/communities start to realize that they aren't "African-American", "Latin American", "European-American", Asian-American", etc.. that they are simply Americans.. That's when we'll see racism on ALL levels diminish.
Posted By: Spyke (Guest) on May 16, 2009 at 03:23 PM
Mitchell, the fact that some of the commenters actually think that you somehow 'got one over' on me with your weakass response shows the sort of idiocy I've started to expect out of my fellow Americans...
No, I don't deliver pizza to make up for the fact that I didn't get into Baylor. I deliver pizza full-time because not only can I not get grants, but can't even get federal student loans to cover my tuition. And the best part is, I'll still be graduating with honors while other people sit around snivelling about not getting ample opportunity.
And, you're right. It's not a pain contest. So why don't you shut up already?
Oh, and while we're on the topic of whining, here's a thought: Stop bitching about the wage gap for christ's sake. The ridiculously high unemployment rate among African Americans is factored into those figures when they're mass-produced, so of course it's going to be skewed in your argument's favor. There is research going on right now that is disproving the wage gap among African Americans and women, and the validity of those claims are being reinforced by the stonewalling they're getting from the media and the massive outcry against them by, you guessed it, women and African Americans.
And as far as never living in a racist community, try this. I lived in Saint Louis half of my life (and in the 90's it was a crime-filled hellhole, and I lived in an extraordinarilly crime-heavy area that was 80% black), then moved to southeast Texas (where Quanell X has recently protested). So good job making an assumption that has no merit whatsoever. I am quite possibly the least racist person that I know, and I got to watch plenty of my black friends in grade school come to class with their faces broken after bumping into the all-white Bloods whose territory I lived in. But you're right, I probably don't know what I'm talking about.
PS. I love how you completely avoided the fact that minorities have boatloads of specialized scholarship money when whites have none, and instead labled it as bitching. The same way that white Americans labled the black community's pleas against lynching as whining in the early 20th century. Irony is bliss
Posted By: Brad (Guest) on May 16, 2009 at 06:11 PM
And furthermore, the ONLY time that I start bitching about what I've seen as far as inequality goes is when one of you jackasses parades false statistics and sob stories about how bad a certain group has it. I wouldn't be as well off as I am now without shutting up and getting to work.
'For example, Blacks in the United States make less money (approximately 77%) than whites do for the same job with the same education. That is the situation of the group. However, if you are White and reading this, you probably make less money than Oprah Winfrey. That is the situation of the individual. I'm sorry your individual scenario occurred, but that does not take away from the plight of the group. Or, to rephrase, I will see your $5000 or so a year you may be losing in tips as a White pizza delivery driver and raise you the $10,000 that a Black degreed professional gets underpaid… multiplied by the thousands of underpaid Black degreed professionals'
That is such a false statement that I'm not going to deface it, because it's such a self-serving lie that it isn't worth my time to do source work. If you actually think that's true, you really need to go do some real research. Crock of shit journalism.
And of course everyone has it bad in some way, the only difference between the black, hispanic, asian, and white communities is that the other groups manage to spin all of their problems on the whites. Feel free to show ANY evidence of that not being the case.
And David, your comment reflects your obvious lack of intellect. If I'm 'closed-minded' because I can't stand people to parade around false information as fact, then I'll take that title to the bank. However, if that makes you closed-minded, then anyone who isn't is a complete idiot. I'm not going to make a bunch of internet tough guy statements about my actual character, so feel free to stand by your assumptions. I do know this: Anyone who feels the need to put in their two cents in a political discussion while saying absolutely nothing of any relevance with regard to the topic at hand is a moron.
In other news, since I've very covertly called a racist here today, I'm officially changing my title to The Man. I guess The Spook and I are going to be a hell of a bigot tag team to you schmucks.
While we've already got the racist banner flying, here's an idea: If you are black and whining about how the black community as a whole doesn't make as much money per capita as the white community, why don't you look at any economics text book and explain to me why black unemployment has been labled as a formular constant since the creation of the welfare system. Hell, it's a major factor in predicting cyclical recessionary inflation. Riddle me that. I'll be waiting
Posted By: Brad (Guest) on May 16, 2009 at 06:51 PM
This line of commentary isn't helpful.
Allow me to start. I am going to apologize for using the word "whining" in reference to Brad's situation. That term implies judgement.
We don't have to agree to exchange ideas and thoughts. This is degenerating from an exchange of ideas and thoughts into name calling and defensiveness.
It's not going to particularly help.
Posted By: J. Alexander Mitchell (Registered) on May 16, 2009 at 09:27 PM
Come on liberals... just sum it up like you ALWAYS sum it up "Republicans are Racist"
Posted By: gwpbrian (Guest) on May 16, 2009 at 09:34 PM
Actually, Spook...I'm above you because I do not need to resort to petty attacks. But, I have to thank you. Good job for trying to push the United States back into the Dark Ages....
*slow clap*
Please, I hope you do not reproduce, the gene pool doesn't need anymore of your pollution....
Posted By: David (Guest) on May 16, 2009 at 11:55 PM
The Spook,
You mentioned people that picked on me? I guess you never heard of Ender Wiggin...The two people that tried to pick on me the same way (sans murdering them). That is why I had two fights at the start of my Freshman year in High School, and no one messed with me the rest of my Freshman, Sophomore, Junior, and Senior years...You have to realize that High School can have that prison mentality, and you just need to educate people that you do not play around.
Posted By: David (Guest) on May 17, 2009 at 06:03 AM
As I don't want to be "that Black writer", I'm going to try to summarize a bunch of thoughts on things here instead of a separate column.
First off, please remember that discussion of race is a sensitive thing that causes people to react immediately. One has to actively factor this in so that we can have a real dialogue about the difficulties in America, rather than yelling about who is hurt the most. Andrew was echoing what I mentioned in my column.
Secondly, let me say the parts that I believe those I am debating with are waiting to hear. I believe minorities in this nation, particularly post-60s, are not utilizing all of the possibilities available. It has become far too easy to assume one will be held down, rather than maximizing what is available. I hope that having an example of maximizing one's possibilities, such as President Obama, will change this within the various sub-cultures.
As well, it is extraodinarily important to note that there are very blurred lines between race and class in this discussion. It is easy to blur these: Rich people in America tend to be White, and minorities tend to be economically disadvantaged. Structures are in place in this country so that it is easier to obtain money and power if you already have money and power. That does not mean that one cannot; I was born in projects in New Orleans and graduated from college on purely academic means. It is my belief in this American dream that makes me bring up this discussion. The question is how to being about equity into the equation.
Now, let's get to the fun part - if you are White in America you have probably benefited from institutionalized racism. Hit up the Wikipedia entry for institutionalized racism; it is a decent-enough explanation that I don't want to repeat here. Let me be clear about one thing: THE INDIVIDUAL PERSON THAT BENEFITS FROM INSTITUTIONALIZED RACISM HAS (PROBABLY) NOT DONE ANYTHING WRONG. They have (usually) worked hard and reaped the benefits of their work. This does not mean they did not benefit from institutionalized racism, however.
How does one combat institutionalized racism so that success in America is independent of race? You must implement structures to counter it. This is not fair. However, it is equitable.
Here is an example of the CONCEPT (not a realistic scenario, but something that illustrates the point). Let's say that White males get 72% of available general scholarships, and the rest are equally distributed among females, blacks, hispanics, and asians. Let's also say that 48% of all scholarships are minority specific scholarship, equally distributed. These numbers were chosen for easy math. Your average Asian is getting 16% of all scholarships (12% of minority plus 3.64% of general) the White male gets 37%.
Posted By: J. Alexander Mitchell (Registered) on May 17, 2009 at 09:08 AM
The White males in question may have done ZERO to hold anyone down, which would make these numbers fair. However, they are not equitable. Again... this is NOT realistic, but merely used to illustrate the concept. There is a difference between what is fair and what is equitable.
There is no good solution that balances what is fair and what is equitable. One of my favorite analogies for affirmative action is the following: A bunch of people are running a race. One guy is tied to the starting line. About halfway through the race the officials realize that this sucks, so they let the guy go. However, he's already started well behind everyone else, so they give the guy a bike so that he can catch up. Maybe he wins, and maybe he doesn't, but no one will be happy in the end. The guys that ran normally are mad that someone got a bike, and get really mad if that guy wins. The guy that got the bike is still pissed about being tied to the starting line, and never really knows whether or not he would have won if everyone ran normally. Nobody is really happy. However... is there a better solution?
A friend of mine - lifelong conservative White Republican - had a conversation about a similar subject recently. To paraphrase his statement, with each passing year from the "I Have A Dream" speech, Blacks in America get less mileage from issues of race. I responded by asking whether or not he was saying that four hundred years of effects are expected to be countered in about two generations. He said yes. I looked at him like he'd grown a third eye. He responded that he never said it was right; he just said that it was true.
What are your thoughts?
Posted By: J. Alexander Mitchell (Registered) on May 17, 2009 at 09:26 AM
Mr. Mitchell, you're still trying to use numbers to justify discrimination. You can't just use the term "equitable" to tell someone doors are closed to them because they're the wrong color at the wrong moment in history. The very concept of segregating people into racial or ethnic groups for distributing resources is wrong. It only encourages the notion that there are separate groups in America engaged in a constant tug of war, rather than all of us being united as Americans as Spyke pointed out.
We can debate the arguments on affirmative action all day long. What cannot be debated is that as long as it exists there will be strong feelings of racial resentment preventing us from getting where we need to go as a nation: putting race behind us. As long as one side is conditioned to feel it's owed something, while the other feels it's being punished for the sins of the father, there will still be sides.
I never received my good old boys care pack that gives me benefits from "institutionalized racism". I have never gotten a job, promotion, or any other benefit because I was white. My middle class parents paid my way through a state university. Never in my life has being white granted me special access to anything. I bought my own home with the money I worked for, and no big inheritance awaits me when my parents kick off.
Mr. Mitchell, your assertion is that financial SUCCESS should be equally distributed based on race. My assertion is that financial OPPORTUNITY should be equally distributed, and it is. If the gap between economic classes leads those born into privilege to fare better and propagates a cycle where individual success is based on pedigree rather than abilities and hard work, then narrow the gap between classes. If minorities are disproportionately poor this approach will help them. Your determination to base it on skin color is part of the problem with mending race relations.
Posted By: Shockmaster (Guest) on May 17, 2009 at 11:23 AM
Brad,
I live by the airport in St. Louis County. Let me say to all of you that if Brad lived in grew-up in North St. Louis, made it out alive and then actually made something of himself, he should get a Medal of Valor, Purple Heart and hazardous duty pay. You sir are one determined SOB and I tip my cap to you.
I am on the board of a foundation that provides two scholarship per year (eight in total) to graduates of the Ritenour School District in St. Louis County (Asian 2.6%, Hispanic 9.5%, Black 36.6%, White 50.9%). We actually have trouble getting applicants from any race. Every year I am stunned that nobody submits an application for free money.
If you want to explain your circumstances through race, you will see racism everywhere because we are all different along so many dimensions that you can always find a racist hook upon which to hang your hat.
BTW my lady is a fully desegregated human and damn is she hot.
Posted By: AdmChesterMynutz (Guest) on May 17, 2009 at 12:00 PM
Mitchell, you are not owed anything based on how much pigmnet is in your skin.Really,stop.Your the boy who cried wolf, everyone is tuning you out.Its tired.
By the way, you are not helping the future generations of african americans by teaching them everything is white peoples fault and people owe them something.Try self reliance and hard work.Quit with the crutch crap.It really makes you look like a whiner.
Posted By: John (Guest) on May 17, 2009 at 03:11 PM
Shockmaster - First off, let me reiterate that what I am saying is far from fair. I never said it was. As well, let me reiterate that I never said that the average person that benefits from institutionalized racism has done anything wrong. I don't believe they have, and that is what makes the situation so difficult.
For example, you cited that your middle class parents paid your ay through a state community college. That means that you were gifted with the tools required to open the doors for you. I do NOT want to personalize this, so let's back away and pretend your experience is the norm. On average, a minority family will have less income, and as such it would be more difficult to send their kids to a state school. Therefore, you will have, due to something that has zero to do with you, a competitive advantage. It stops being simply about how hard you work.
Opportunity for success is a function of resources. Resources, from a racial standpoint, aren't equally distributed.
This conversation has helped me think a lot about the best methods to deal with the problem (and that is what it comes down to - dealing with a problem). More specifically, as soon as one frames things in a racial context, defensiveness arises to the point where we can't work together. What I hear right now are a bunch of people mad because one person in the race was given a bike and they think it is unfair. I think a big difficulty here is the utter and total lack of acknowledgement that the race was unfair to begin with. As I mentioned to my friend - how can one expect 400 years of systematic oppression to be be erased in two generations? It is simply unrealistic.
Again, though - I think the real difficulty here is getting rid of the barriers. This conversation is very helful to me, because it is making me rethink some of the strategies. The source of 90% of the racial disparities is not due to overt racism, IMO, but the institutionalized stuff. However, 90% of the institutionalized racism is really economic barriers (again... rich people tend to be white, and minorities tend to be poor, so it becomes easy to confuse the two). As we flatten the playing field economicially, I believe we will see a lot of the racial disparities go away. This is where I believe President Obama is smart - he's actively avoiding any racial issues (see the lawsuit by the Black farmers that he previously supported) and is instead looking at ways to annihilate barriers to entry period (such as increasing the pell grant amounts).
BTW - how do you know that you've never gotten a job because you are white? I know of situations where recruiters would not pick someone for an interview (in a corporate setting) based on the names of the person. You are speaking VERY confidently...
Posted By: J. Alexander Mitchell (Guest) on May 18, 2009 at 08:52 AM
John said:
"By the way, you are not helping the future generations of african americans by teaching them everything is white peoples fault and people owe them something.Try self reliance and hard work.Quit with the crutch crap.It really makes you look like a whiner."
JAM said: "I believe minorities in this nation, particularly post-60s, are not utilizing all of the possibilities available. It has become far too easy to assume one will be held down, rather than maximizing what is available. I hope that having an example of maximizing one's possibilities, such as President Obama, will change this within the various sub-cultures."
Ummm... okay. Well, thanks for responding!
Posted By: J. Alexander Mitchell (Guest) on May 18, 2009 at 08:54 AM
"On average, a minority family will have less income, and as such it would be more difficult to send their kids to a state school. Therefore, you will have, due to something that has zero to do with you, a competitive advantage. It stops being simply about how hard you work."
But that simply isn't true! I went to the University of Illinois at Chicago. While not a community college it's cheap by college tuition standards. There were MANY minority students there, attending the same classes to earn the same degree as me so they could compete for the same jobs. When that is the case, the size of the house we each grew up in is moot.
"how can one expect 400 years of systematic oppression to be be erased in two generations? It is simply unrealistic."
See, when your mind works that way, it's about "getting even" for things done to people who weren't you, by people who weren't me. And when in some way, however indirect, you want restitution for something I didn't do, I can only throw my hands up and give up. The discussion breaks down and nothing changes.
"(again... rich people tend to be white, and minorities tend to be poor, so it becomes easy to confuse the two)."
Just use the word "reparations" already. That's what you're getting at. We elected a black President, which by itself doesn't prove anything. If half of that top 1% of the wealthiest Americans were black, that also wouldn't prove anything. It will NEVER be enough. As long as an intangible idea like "institutionalized racism" exists as a way to ignore the current level playing field, some will exploit it to demand entitlements while others expect everyone to play by the same rules.
"BTW - how do you know that you've never gotten a job because you are white?"
Well, my first job was at Target, where white people made up maybe 15% of the work force. So unless I was a token hire it seems doubtful. My second and current job is in an office where the work force looks like a U.N. conference. The manager who interviewed me was black, so that also seems to make it unlikely. I've gotten promoted by making myself so valuable even outsiders comment the place would fall apart without me.
This is not about getting defensive. It's me saying that the reality I live in is completely different than what you describe. I am surrounded by examples of minorities who had the exact same opportunities as me and took advantage to become successful. At Target, many of my coworkers were there part time while attending college. The competitive advantage for whites you speak of simply doesn't exist in 21st century America.
Posted By: Shockmaster (Guest) on May 18, 2009 at 12:36 PM
Shockmaster said "But that simply isn't true! I went to the University of Illinois at Chicago. While not a community college it's cheap by college tuition standards. There were MANY minority students there, attending the same classes to earn the same degree as me so they could compete for the same jobs. When that is the case, the size of the house we each grew up in is moot."
Ummm... the fact that they were there does not mean that there was not a potential competitive advantage in play. I never said it was IMPOSSIBLE... just harder.
I saw Chris Rock's "Kill The Messenger" last night and he had a great joke that illustrates my point. He said "There are four Black people in my neighborhood (a rich, exclusive area in New Jersey): Me, Mary J. Blige, Jay-Z, and Eddie Murphy. Now me... I'm a good comedian. Mary J. Blige - one of the best R&B singers ever! Jay-Z - one of the best rappers in the world! Eddie Murphy - one of the best comedians in history! You know what my neighbor does? He's a DENTIST. And he's not even the best dentist in the world - he's just a regular old dentist! Black people have to FLY to get the sort of things White folks can just WALK to..."
I had a fun and interesting conversation with a White co-worker during lunch as I was going to type this that really hit home on what's going on here. She cited that her generation (she's about ten years younger than I) feel like they've already done their best to make things as equal as possible. Hence, when there is complaints about the inequities, they want to throw their hands up and give up. I responded that I don't think they should have to give minorities 10% of their paycheck or anything (though I do need the money), but that the frustration comes from the refusal to acknowledge that things are not yet equal. Things are a LOT better - I had it considerably better than my parents did, and all signs are pointing to my son having a lot easier time than I did. However, to say that there are still NO lingering effects in a society that has statistically provable racial gaps in terms of economic power and for which access and opportunity for success is a function of economic power is insulting. She then gave examples of how she has cited it, to which I referred her to this line of comments, where there is seemingly a need to NOT admit that there were discrepancies.
Of course, she then added "But we have a Black President now, so what more can I want?" Yes, my friends do know how to exacerbate the stress on my already tenuous string of sanity I have left.
As I said above, I firmly believe that minorities need to take better advantage of what is available, and that things will get better as we remove economic barriers. But to say that it's all even now... that's naive.
Posted By: J. Alexander Mitchell (Registered) on May 18, 2009 at 02:21 PM
BTW - I believe I've said that affirmative action is an idea that ends up just pissing everyone off. In addition, I'm not advocating reparations at all. For one, how in the heck do you decide how much? To whom? I am (according to my family) between 1/8 and 1/16th Native American - do I get 7/8ths to 15/16ths of an amount? And where is the money coming from? It just doesn't work as an idea.
The best solution I've seen - and I said this earlier - is to address general economic disparities and wait for everything else to shake itself out. At this stage, I am simply shocked that there seems to be an utter and total lack of acknowledgement that there are still discrepancies.
Posted By: J. Alexander Mitchell (Guest) on May 18, 2009 at 02:28 PM
Y'know what the problem with that bicycle analogy you're so fond of is, J.A.M.? A race has a finish line. A defined finish line.
So what is the finish line? When will we know we have reached equity? Furthermore, how will we know whether social engineering or simply social evolution is responsible for the creation of that equity?
Also, if you are going to continually harp on statistics, wage gaps, and economic data, please source them.
Posted By: lol (Guest) on May 18, 2009 at 04:51 PM
"I don't think they should have to give minorities 10% of their paycheck or anything (though I do need the money), but that the frustration comes from the refusal to acknowledge that things are not yet equal."
"The best solution I've seen - and I said this earlier - is to address general economic disparities and wait for everything else to shake itself out. At this stage, I am simply shocked that there seems to be an utter and total lack of acknowledgement that there are still discrepancies."
It's funny how close we are to agreeing. If a kid with rich parents coasts through high school and barely passes, his parents will make a "donation" and he still gets an Ivy League education he didn't earn. Odds are he's white. That's wrong.
I was born in 1976 so to me the horrors of the civil rights movement are like World War II. It's a part of history
and feels like it was ages ago because from my point of view it was before I existed and can only be imagined. It also seems surreal because in my 32 years on this earth I have witnessed no signs of it.
There was an episode of South Park where some wanted the town flag changed because it depicted four white men lynching a black man (with stick figures). The boys didn't get why it mattered, which infuriated Chef. He later learned they didn't see the problem because they never saw the races, just five people. That more or less sums up many of my generation. You tap us on the shoulder, inform us that race is an issue in 2009, and other than awareness that some people are racists, it's news to us.
And even if it IS an issue, more racism isn't the solution. Your suggestion to address general economic disparities and wait for everything else to shake itself out is one I agree with. No color, just everyone getting a chance to succeed.
Posted By: Shockmaster (Guest) on May 18, 2009 at 05:21 PM
Shockmaster said: "I was born in 1976 so to me the horrors of the civil rights movement are like World War II. It's a part of history
and feels like it was ages ago because from my point of view it was before I existed and can only be imagined. It also seems surreal because in my 32 years on this earth I have witnessed no signs of it."
And therein lies the difference in our viewpoints. I was born in 1973. I'm only three years older than you, yet I've experienced FAR more racism than you have.
I think one of the difficulties is that some are saying "This doesn't exist anymore", while others are saying "I've experienced it! Yes it does!"
The truth is, as always, probably somewhere in between. Once you have experienced a certain level of racism you will begin to see it more often. On the other hand, the fact that someone doesn't see any racism doesn't mean it isn't there.
Posted By: J. Alexander Mitchell (Registered) on May 19, 2009 at 08:50 AM
"Once you have experienced a certain level of racism you will begin to see it more often. On the other hand, the fact that someone doesn't see any racism doesn't mean it isn't there."
Very true. And the fact that the majority of our generation (among whites, at least) don't experience much racism is a huge part of why, unlike their parents, they see no need to engage in it. Generations shortly after slavery and Jim Crow laws perceived blacks the way many today see illegal immigrants: outsiders trying to take what's theirs. That made it easy to indoctrinate irrational hatred. Not to be morbid, but if everyone over the age of 40 died tomorrow I think we would have at least 90% fewer racists. It's a concept that has been exposed as arbitrary, stupid, and is being phased out of American culture.
When Kanye West infamously said "George Bush doesn't care about black people" I immediately said back to my TV, "No, George Bush doesn't care about POOR people". Many Republican commenters here get upset that they are assumed to be racists. While I have no doubt many are, I suspect just as many only seem that way because they ideologically oppose policies that help the poor, who in fact are disproportionately black. The result is that stances against financial opportunities for the poor take on the appearance of "institutionalized racism". And when life experience with racists has left you predisposed to see racism, it leads you to see racial injustice where I simply see economic class warfare.
We can agree that those with money and power shouldn't be allowed to use it to hold status and pass on their position to their children, whether or not they have earned it. Society benefits when those with God given qualities like intelligence, talent and work ethic rise to the top. Many such people begin life poor, and come in all colors. It is in everyone's interest that they have the chance to realize their potential and in doing so make the world a better place. The only ones who stand to lose are those clinging to power. And pushing them aside is something we ALL can agree needs to happen. But when your message is packaged as being about race in itself, many who would support you stop and say "Wait, what?"
To put it another way, if racism ceased to exist, class warfare would STILL exist, and the black experience would still be largely one of poverty if only due to inertia. That's why the battle lines today should be drawn between the "haves" and the "have nots".
Posted By: Shockmaster (Guest) on May 19, 2009 at 03:55 PM
This sort of exchange is why I asked to write at 411.
And ego. Can't forget ego.
Posted By: J. Alexander Mitchell (Registered) on May 20, 2009 at 08:36 AM
Heh heh. This is certainly the most I've ever commented on one subject. Thanks for an enlightening intellectual exchange (that's for your ego!). It's what makes the often vulgar and confrontational comments section worthwhile.
Posted By: Shockmaster (Guest) on May 21, 2009 at 10:47 AM
Ironically I went to University of Illinois-Chicago also. Born 1975. UIC is probably the most ethnically diverse campus in the world...something like 20% Asian, 30% Latino, 20% Black, 20% White, and everything in-between.
J. Alexander Mitchell,
I'd like to hear your perspective on white-on-white racism. Something that I've noticed is that there has been no discussion about "trailor trash" or "white trash". This portion of the American population makes up the highest numbers of poor, unemployed, or underemployed individuals. These individuals are descriminated against and laughed at because of where they live, how they talk, and their otherwise "non-mainstream" ways of life. While poor blacks are concentrated in the cities in ghettos and housing projects for what appears to be convenient for the media and politicians who exploit both of the aforementioned for their own gain, the vast tens of millions of poor whites in trailor parks are brushed aside and largely forgotten. It is in these communities that crystal methamphetamine use has police overrun to the point that most of the time a repeat offender will just get their drugs seized and let go due to lack of resources.
I remember that when I was a boy my mother drove me through a trailor park and said something to the effect of, "This is what your life will be like if you don't work hard in school and in the jobs you have. You are white and you are a male. Nobody will be there to catch you if you fall."
I'll never forget the images or the context of my mother's words. Indeed I busted my ass and went from a net worth of $0 to $1,000,000 from the age of 25-28, working 20 hours per day on average. Indeed nothing was given to me as my single mother and I (father died when I was 12) put myself and my sister through college without any hope of financial aid.
To this day, however, I still hold negative images of poor whites. The way they lived, the way they acted in public, and the way they are portrayed in TV and in movies has only reinforced my perception of them. Granted, I've watched gays, women, and minorities (black especially) be treated as "sacred cows" when we were placed in situations where we were all supposed to be equal. White men were sort of in that "grey area" where it was ok to knock us around, but the real whipping boy was the white guy with the southern drawl. Navy OCS was the best example of this in the few years I was a military officer (since I had no other direction at the time). Again, I credit my position to my own blood, sweat, and tears. I believe that if anyone wants something bad enough, they can achieve almost anything.
But don't forget about poor "white trash" America. Not only do they get screwed by the system, but by other whites as well.
Posted By: Roundtheworld (Guest) on May 23, 2009 at 04:22 AM
I forgot to add the the above:
For my part I found it necessary to have that kind of pressure imposed on me by society. My family never really pressured me...they just pointed out what I was up against if I wanted the best that life had to offer.
I honestly believe that without knowing that I faced "reverse racism" as many call it, I wouldn't have the desire or strength to achieve like I did when it really counted.
A black friend of mine said it well once to the effect that "Affirmative Action does black people a disservice. Instead of making us work harder, it makes us lazy since we are taught to believe that the world owes us something."
As I said above, the pressure of knowing that I was like Eminem when he said, "you only get one shot, do not miss your chance", made me afraid to fail...that failure was not an option.
I personally believe that the new American "belief" that there is or should be a safety net for everyone is exactly what lulled the USA into the false sense of security that is now nearing the point of no return.
I'm not saying that I have a solution to racial or ethnic equality that will make everyone happy because I do not. What I can say from my own experience is that if we are taught to depend on anyone or anything but ourselves, we are setting ourselves up for a huge let-down later in life (like now for many Americans) who trusted the system.
Posted By: Roundtheworld (Guest) on May 23, 2009 at 04:38 AM
STAY CURRENT