Should We Stop Health Insurance Reform?
Posted by Scott Williams on 08.18.2009
Insurance Reform Without a Viable Public Option Is a Non-Starter
I'm going to keep this short. So I can try to make sure it gets through the static.
In my opinion, Americans are beginning to be set up, to be forced to buy health insurance, on an individual level (individual mandates), WITHOUT a viable public insurance option to fall back on. Or even enforceable employer mandates. Think about that for a minute. In order to declare some sort of victory, Democrats are willing to throw us to the wolves of the "for profit" health insurance industry, to force us to buy insurance, simply so they can have something to run on in 2010. A victory. For whom? Us? Or the heath insurance industry and Big Pharma?
What we may or may not get, is some sort of co-op solution. That nobody understands. And is unproven on a national scale. That may or may not fit the needs of those that do not have health insurance today (for whatever reason). Or guaranteed to be able to cover all that need coverage.
This can't happen. It's wrong. But it could be in our future. Unless we stand against it.
Here are the comments of Rep. Anthony Weiner (D-N.Y.) on CNBC, getting to the heart of the matter:
You all know how I feel about this issue. Its been huge for me. But, I can't stand by, and allow the health insurance lobby to reach out, and grab us all, for their own profit. That can't be what this turns into.
We have to have choice. And we have to have freedom. Otherwise, what was this all for? Simply so a super majority of one party can transfer our rights and our wealth to a "for profit" health insurance industry? Perpetrated by politicians that are bought and sold by that same industry like so much cattle at auction?
Reform with individual mandates, without a viable, strong public option, makes us less safe. Not more. And does nothing to control costs or ensure competition.
President Obama said in his last press conference, "This isn't about me. I HAVE great health care and insurance. It's about you."
I'm beginning to believe he really means that. It really is just like it sounds. We're on our own. And WE are the ones that have to drive this.
So, since this IS about us, if we have to end this reform effort, to protect ourselves, then I say, fine. That may be just what we need to do. We'll see.
Let me start by saying that I do respect y'alls passion and desire on the subject of health care reform. I agree that health care needs to be reformed - but I simply disagree with your underlying premise - and that is that healt care can ONLY be reformed by having a public option. Please let me explain why.
HIstrocially, in this country - prices have been driven down by competition, not by governemnt. Take a look at some other industries - such as the phone industry, the cell phone industry, the airlines industry - all of these are large example of price being driven down AFTER governemnt got out of the way of the industry and let competition do it's work.
The health care industry is no different. Right now, 60 percent of the health care industry is controlled by the government, as well as the general prices paid(Medicare, medicaid, etc) - and as much good as these programs do do, the damage they've done is that because these programs are run by the governemnt, controled by the govenment, and administered by the governemnt, the amount of buisnees for the private industry to both compete over and is smaller. With the government controlling prices to a great extent on their end, there are less people in the private industry pool - thereby causing the private industry to have to charge more to make a profit because there are less people to compete over.
Likewise, with government only willing to pay a certain amount to doctors, pharmacy's and the like, it means that if the people who run private health insurance want to make a profit and a living, and the governemnt is underpaying them, then they'll have to pass along the amount that they don't make to the consumer.
ON the other hand, if there was more competition in the market - more true competiton, then, just like in every other industry, prices would have to drop - companies would be competing for market share - and the only way they could compete would be to have lower prices and better advances (Medical, paperwork, etc).
This IS about us - it is about us choosing the right way to reform healthcare. A public option that is competes in a free market? I'd say yes - as long as I don't have to pay for it - as long as I don't have to subsidize it with my tax dollars.
One last thing - how can we have a public option that is truly competitve with its private option neighbors, if it is subsidized or run by tax dollars? That would give it a leg up on it's competition - and give it a way to survive long past its financial viablity. Don't believe me?
Check out Social Security, Medicare, medicaid, Fanny May, Freddie Mac - all public options that if they were truly competing in the private sector would have been dead a long time ago.
Posted By: Stephen (Guest) on August 18, 2009 at 11:15 AM
This bill SHALL NOT PASS!
Posted By: Rep. Gandalf (R - MiddleEarth) (Guest) on August 18, 2009 at 11:45 AM
I'll tell you first hand - based on what I'm seeing on the message boards and what I'm seeing on the streets, healthcare reform in this country is DEAD. D-E-A-D.
Not because it's socialism. Not because Obama is too weak to push through on a "mandate". It's us. We're too blame.
Instead of admitting that the country has a GLARING FUCKING PROBLEM staring us in the face and actually saying "hey, let's work TOGETHER to solve it", we're screaming and shouting and name calling and labelling everyone for everything.
It's happened. We've become our own worst enemies. We've allowed political labels to define us. We've allowed geographic boundaries to define us. We've allowed the kind of music we like to define us. We've allowed the channels we watch to define us. We've allowed what religion we DON'T like define us.
I am a human being with a family. I believe that EVERYONE, I don't care who the fuck you are - has a right to see a doctor whenever they want, for whatever reason they want. We're playing with PEOPLE. PEOPLE. This isn't about cost, or lobbyists or political gain or "success" or "failure" or any of that bullshit.
People SHOULD NOT - in the UNITED FUCKING STATES OF AMERICA, have to worry about whether or not they can afford to see a doctor or pay their mortgage. We should NOT have to worry about "waiting in line" or "death panels" or "crumbling the economy". We've simply become the ultimate pawns of something lurking that wants us to be eternal CYNICS.
Unfortunately, we should be able to trust each other and work towards the greater good, but we can't. We won't. And I doubt we ever will be.
I would like to meet every person that posts in the politics page. Spook, Mikel, David, John, Zimmer, J. Alexander Mitchell, Williams, Coby, Connolly, Dunn, etc and actually sit down and see if we can agree that we have a PROBLEM. That's a hypothetical - it won't happen, but it would be nice.
That is the first step. Either we have a problem with health care or we don't. If we can agree on THAT, maybe we can make some progress.
But we'll keep screaming at each other. For years me and my wife have been trying to conceive with no success. I have prayed to GOD for something - and now I wonder if I even want to raise a child in this environment where people just HATE each other for no reason than it is convenient to hate them. I'm in rural Ohio, "conservative" hotbed - and people I talk to wouldn't mind having "socialized" medicine; most of them just don't like WHO'S pushing it.
Which leads me to the question: If we're so distrustful of government, why do we allow it to exist? Why aren't we anarchists and allow each other to live on our own and of our own free will and govern ourselves?
Posted By: The 8th Samurai (Guest) on August 18, 2009 at 12:49 PM
Right on, Scott. But short of buying ourselves a few senators like the insurance companies, I'm not sure what we can do. Even if we could afford one or two, I'm not sure there are any left for sale.
Posted By: David (Guest) on August 18, 2009 at 12:54 PM
I wanna help - I want to do SOMETHING. I would like for everyone around here to be able to come to some sort of agreement that there is a problem that needs to be dealt with. Whether it's tort reform, or taking away wait times, creating a more solid educational foundation so we have more doctors, or incentives to keep them here, or wellness programs so we can go LESS or incentives for drugs that actually CURE ailments or going after insurance companies - something, anything; I DON'T CARE WHAT POLITICAL PARTY IT COMES FROM; I want something to be done.
What should we do? Should we all buy guns and kill each other? Should we look to overthrow our current administration? Should we seek out all the illegal immigrants and kick them out? Should we obliterate medicare and medicaid? Destroy social security? How many of us blogging are part of a city council? Or have run for any type of public office? How many of us go to city meetings and question and/or suggest solutions to issues of crime, poverty, education, health, security and financial responsibility? Seriously, how plugged in are we - not to what is being SAID to us through media, but to our own environment and surroundings? Do you know where your tax dollars are going? Do you keep up on ordanances in your neighborhood? Are you aware of funding cuts in your libraries and schools? What do you KNOW - and more importantly, what are you DOING ABOUT IT?
I'm getting off my soapbox, cause it's getting too high for my own good. But here's the final thing: The USA is "supposed" to be the greatest country in the world, right? What makes it so? Our military? They're getting slaughtered in Afghanistan and are running thin around the globe. Our economy? Tell that to the housing, import, and retail markets. Our education? Sweeden is smarter than we are. Our healthcare? I have OHIP - I can go to Canada TODAY and get fixed for ANYTHING and never have to pay for it. Our infastructure sucks. We lack a sense of history. We lack a sense of communal empathy. We used to be #1 in ALL of these things.
We better do something...Now, starting TODAY to start to fix shit, or the day's gonna come where we're nothing more than a crater in the earth and no one is going to care, except for us. But we'll all be gone by then.
Help each other! Stop yelling! Stop blaming! Stop looking at the past! Stop passing the buck! Do something now!
Posted By: The 8th Samurai (Guest) on August 18, 2009 at 01:03 PM
nicely done Stephen
Posted By: Da Man (Guest) on August 18, 2009 at 01:05 PM
I choose to eat healthy, take vitamins and work out 6 days a week. I'm a relatively healthy individual. This is my choice. Therefore, my health care costs will likely be relatively small.
Why then, should I have to pay for a hospital stay for someone who CHOOSES to sit around all day eating Cheetos and watching Jerry Springer when that person has a heart attack?
I know that sometimes shit happens and we end up in accidents that are not our fault and we get stuck in the hospital, etc. etc. That is why we must, as individuals, be RESPONSIBLE for making arrangements for these types of things. Private, not government solutions.
Every government intervention into our freedoms takes something from someone to give to someone else. I would be arrested if I did the same.
Posted By: Masked Defender (Guest) on August 18, 2009 at 01:14 PM
The US Post Office is run by the government, yet it doesn't effect the privately run companies of UPS or Fedex much at all or their profit margin.
The idea I have heard that this public option will be bad for the private sector is just a scare tactic. If this was the case, companies like Fedex and UPS would be getting killed by the USPS yet this isn't happening and if anything it's the post office that is continually in trouble because of how competitive Fedex and UPS are.
Transfer some of this to the health care industry and we may actually have something useful.
Posted By: billy (Guest) on August 18, 2009 at 01:30 PM
as soon as you start a post with "y'all". you need to go away permanently, although i must admit to never having seen the word y'all in writing before, most likely because the people who say y'll are too stupid to know how to write and the few ones who do know how to write are at least smart enough to not actually write y'all because they know it will only show everybody else how ridiculously undeducated they are. seriously stephen next time you have a thought and feel the need to type y'all, let it go.
Posted By: southerners are morons (Guest) on August 18, 2009 at 01:33 PM
Universal single payer. No compromise. Obama to support a primary challenger against any Democrat who votes against it. If he's really willing to stake his Presidency on healthcare like he says, then do it and to hell with the consequences (a few Blue Dog dems lose their seats). History will judge the Dems as the party of reform and they get the credit for fixing Healthcare for decades, even if it hurts for one or two election cycles.
We manage to do it in rest of the Western world without the sky collapsing (I say this as a dual citizen who spent time in the US this year) so why can't the US simply adopt real universal healthcare policies?
Posted By: Guest#7866 (Guest) on August 18, 2009 at 01:59 PM
What am I doing to help the health care crisis?
The primary item is that I purchase health insurance to insure my family against the cost of health care. In order to do so, I work five days a week so that I may be able to pay for health insurance. I have never had a sense of entitlement to private goods and services.
The primary reason I do not support current health care proposals is that they rely on "savings" and greater "efficiency" for funding.
The US Postal service does not compete with Federal Express and UPS. That sort of bullshit argument of USPS versus private delivery may be a great "townhall talking point", but it doesn't fit reality. Back in the real world:
The only way the post office can stay in business is its government subsidy. The USPS lost $2.4 billion in the quarter ended in June and projects a net loss of $7 billion in fiscal 2009, outstanding debt of more than $10 billion and a cash shortfall of $1 billion. It was moved to intensive care -- the Government Accountability Office’s list of “high risk” cases.
Which brings me to my following point. Until either party can work in good-faith to acknowledge true costs and benefits of a policy change, I will not support proposal.
Until a proposal is developed that doesn't leave me with less money and less coverage than I currently have, I will not support reform.
Sure I would love to receive free goods and services, but that defies the human experience. There is no free lunch even when you are pinching the food off your neighbors plate.
So I ask...what entitlement or other government service would those who cannot afford health insurance give up in exchange for coverage?
Posted By: AdmChesterMynuts (Guest) on August 18, 2009 at 03:54 PM
Just blame Bush, right? I mean, that's what's going to happen for the next 4 years whenever everything Obama does backfires.
Posted By: Guest#8447 (Guest) on August 18, 2009 at 04:25 PM
Obama isn't backing away from a public option. He's very much fighting to keep it. What he said was that it was only part of the solution. Trust me, they're going to keep a public option in.
Posted By: Jake G (Guest) on August 18, 2009 at 04:45 PM
Let's see here...
Obama has already tripled the national debt since he took office. NOW, he wants the government to run and pay for insurance for all.
As if this needs to be said, but we sure as hell better stop this madman from taxing us back to the dark ages.
Posted By: El Sexorcisto (Guest) on August 18, 2009 at 05:50 PM
When will people learn that politics and the world of entertainment are the same...they're fake. You're marks. When the government wants to do something they will. You have no say nor do you have any right to speak out under the patriot act. Give it up please and thank you very much.
Posted By: TayZonfey (Guest) on August 18, 2009 at 05:55 PM
Rest assured the White House and many democratic members of congress still support a public option as one of the best ways to go about this reform. If you need proof this is from earlier today:
http://www.cnn.com/2009/POLITICS/08/17/health.care/
It is consistent with a statement signed by the president from a little over a month ago. That can be found here:
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB124692407982802911.html
Now while the president still supports a public option he is still willing to consider other plans along with it. It is these plans such as the co op plan presented by some members of congress that would be another, separate option.
Posted By: Ben Jamin' (Guest) on August 18, 2009 at 07:45 PM
The title of this says it all. They've gone from calling it Health Care Reform, to Health Insurance Reform. Everyone (yes everyone) agrees that health care needs to be reformed. But if someone can simply explain why the bill that has been put forth is actual health care reform, then by all means, I will consider supporting it. I would love to hear the argument. This is NOT reform. It's more of the same. But the democrats think because Obama supports it, that it must be gold. Well that is pure crap, and any fair minded person would agree that one man is not all knowing.
Posted By: gwpbrian (Guest) on August 18, 2009 at 11:29 PM
First off, it IS about Obama. He's an egomaniac, and he doesn't give a rat's ass about the citizens he governs, and demonizes anyone who disagrees with him. He's a Saul Alinsky, Jeremiah Wright, Frank Marshall Davis,and Bill Ayers disciple. He hates this country and all it stands for, and all that has made it great. That said, I have this to say:
There's no doubt health care needs reforming. It would have happened already, and naturally, if the government hadn't been monkeying with it as much as they have. The market will take care of things, if the government will get out of the way. Osama's only been president for less than a year, so that part, at least, is not his fault. But Obama, being a socialist, refuses to let the market work, and believes government can do better, despite ALL evidence to the contrary. He's a fool. Not so much a fool, as he wants the American experiment in freedom and responsibility to fail. He's weak, and has never done anything of note on his own, so he believes no one else can, either. The thing is, the American people realize this. Nobody trusts this "post-racial" (racist) huckster. That's why it won't pass. Everyone agrees something needs to be done, but nobody can agree on what that is. And most agree doing noting is better that what our Fool-In-Chief is trying to do.
Posted By: Common Sense (Guest) on August 19, 2009 at 02:28 AM
plus if i hear one more libearl pundit say we have 50 million unisured, it's bs, 12 to 20 million are illeagl immigrants, another 25 million are people who choose to be uninsured, becuase there young, and feel there invincible, now i would count those who lost a job, meaning they lost there insurance, so in relaity there is about 12 to 15 million.
The reason it can't be rammed through, because if he did it with no republican help, republicans could say, this man was supposed to be about hope and change, but instead is the same ole same ole, and won't even let the other side have a say.
Plus the us spends about over 7,000 per person on health care, which is more than any other nation.
plus if u wanted to drive down health insurance costs, how about passing tort reform, but as long as there's dems in charge, it will never happen, becuase many of them are laywers
Posted By: coby preimesberger (Guest) on August 19, 2009 at 02:28 AM
I'm very much in favor of health care reform, though personally I'd favor the British model that no politician here dares to even consider.
I'm hardly doctrinaire about that model, however, and would be happy to see something more moderate passing. Like any sensible person I'd like a carefully considered and reasoned bill passed, not just a political butt-saver. And like Scott, I'm concerned that what's currently being struggled with is morphing into butt-saver and not reasoned reform.
I *am* disturbed by the misinformation out there. No current bill even approaches being "socialized medicine", for example. Socialized medicine is what they have in Britain, where the government employs the doctors. Nobody is proposing that. There isn't even a "socialized insurance" option in any bill, where the government nationalizes the insurance companies (so-called "single payer") but not any doctors or hospitals. Government involvement as a minority player in an industry has never been part of any textbook definition of "socialism." Which is why even the VA hospital system isn't appropriately referred to as "socialist" - it isn't the government taking over health care, its the government competing in the marketplace.
Worse, beyond the "socialist" hyperbole there is just plain misinformation out there. People oppose the plan because they think it pays for health care for illegal aliens, because they think it contains funding for abortion, because they think it includes "death panels." All of these are just right wing lies. I expect them to be repeated in response to this.
What's frustrating is that there *are* real points for debate rather than these lies. Would rationing be worse under the proposed reform than it currently is under the insurance companies? Can we afford whatever extra cost the proposed reform would have? (Conversely, can we afford the costs of not reforming the system?) etc.
The problem is that those questions are *tough*. I don't think anyone really knows the answer to them, so both sides return to form - the bleeding heart need to help people at any cost and the conservative distrust of government intervention.
Posted By: Pat Shepard (Guest) on August 19, 2009 at 10:12 AM
Don't you ever get the feeling that opponents to fixing the system are nothing more then lemmings? I can imagine them having green hair They try as hard as they can to walk their happy asses off a cliff.
How can any intelligent person claim that the system does not need to be fixed? How much time has the insurance companies received to fix their problem? Are they doing anything to fix it?
Unfortunately, we have our lemmings that want nothing but everything to stay the same. Come hell or high water, these people actually think the world never changes. If it wasn't for the intelligent founders of the country that got tired of the status quo, we would still be colonies of England. This is no different...
We have the current system supporters (the loyalists) and the people that want reform (the revolutionaries). Ask yourself this question, are you a loyalist or a revolutionary?
Posted By: David (Guest) on August 19, 2009 at 11:08 AM
Man some of you people are retarded. You're already paying taxes that go to the unemployed and those who work the system, single mothers, lazy women in affirmative action programs (i.e., you must pay me because I decide to get pregnant every year and take vacations) and yes, the illegal immigrants. You will never get a fair return on taxes, because people that actually work as employees and pay taxes pay far more than they take. So why so much in the way of complaints for getting something that would help more people on an equal footing?
Also, being healthy doesn't mean anything. I'm in my late 20s and I'm healthy, but I know my body will break down and there are things I probably should see a doctor for. If I had the health insurance, I probably would, otherwise the best I can do is call in favors if things get too bad.
There is just so much ridiculous government waste, I don't understand why people are so adamant about something that might actually help. The US health care system is an absolute joke, it's far too expensive and greed driven. No other country pays its doctors what we do, and has such ridiculous insurance policies determining medical care. A totally free market simply does not work, that's why we have the SEC and Sarbanes-Oxley and other acts designed to control the market. That's also why we give corporations limited liability, precisely because we don't want a free market and want to insulate and control how things function. It's like nobody wants to admit that limited liability is pure government imposed interference.
The most expensive health care is probably babies and women, since men generally don't either have the time or will to get health care. Women are usually healthier overall, but pregnancy and birth are expensive. Especially with what the setup some of these hospitals have, with big screen HDTVs that put most bars to shame, huge rooms for waiting and for the mothers. Then these hospitals demand government subsidies. That's just how things work, that's why things are so expensive and why it's all so stupid.
Posted By: Guest#6391 (Guest) on August 19, 2009 at 11:11 AM
" how about passing tort reform, but as long as there's dems in charge, it will never happen, becuase many of them are laywers "
I'm in favor of tort reform on principle, but it would account for less than 0.5-percent of the money spent on healthcare.
Posted By: J.D. Dunn (Registered) on August 19, 2009 at 11:30 AM
I'm in favor of tort reform on principle, but it would account for less than 0.5-percent of the money spent on healthcare.
Posted By: J.D. Dunn (Registered) on August 19, 2009 at 11:30 AM
In absolute dollars, you're right. But on principle, you're wrong. What was actually paid out matches the figure you posted, but a large portion of any doctor's or medical facility's expenditure is malpractice insurance. In addition, the fear of lawsuits causes doctors to over-test, over-prescribe, and over-admit, because if they lose just once, it could be staggering. The fear of lawsuits causing the above problems is a primary cause of healthcare costing what it does in this country. I'm not disagreeing with you that absolute money spent accounts for a small percentage of health costs, but the legal environment being what it is creates a climate of fear that snowballs into skyrocketing costs from other factors.
Posted By: Concentrate on the solution (Guest) on August 19, 2009 at 12:25 PM
"The US Postal service does not compete with Federal Express and UPS. That sort of bullshit argument of USPS versus private delivery may be a great "townhall talking point", but it doesn't fit reality. Back in the real world:"
Actually it does, they all provide the exact same service and this is just an example to prove that these private insurance companies have nothing to worry about...but yet they are the ones really fighting this.
As it is, as someone else pointed out, people are paying taxes for programs like medicare, welfare and other social interest programs run by the government.
The question of how to pay for all this? Well do you think that the War in Iraq and Afghanistan is going to go on forever? At some point it will end, and while it may not happen short term and this health care program may take a loss....long term that savings can easily be put into program.
These are the same people who argued that the bailout was failure and THAT was making us socialist...meanwhile Warren Buffet today said the country was on the road to recovery BECAUSE of the bailout.
All this Fear Mongering is doing is preventing this country from moving forward for an unrealistic 1950's idea many people still have for this country which is flat out outdated.
Posted By: billy (Guest) on August 19, 2009 at 12:35 PM
"As it is, as someone else pointed out, people are paying taxes for programs like medicare, welfare and other social interest programs run by the government."
Sure, so what's one more poorly-run and/or bankrupt government program? Just go ahead and tack Health Care right on to my taxes.
While you're at it, might as well let the government run the grocery stores too... hey people have a RIGHT to food. There's no reason why those GREEDY farmers should make a profit.
Posted By: Masked Defender (Guest) on August 19, 2009 at 01:33 PM
Masked Defender (Guest),
I bet you have no problem paying taxes when that money is used to bomb brown people.....
Posted By: David (Guest) on August 19, 2009 at 02:49 PM
"In absolute dollars, you're right. But on principle, you're wrong. What was actually paid out matches the figure you posted, but a large portion of any doctor's or medical facility's expenditure is malpractice insurance. In addition, the fear of lawsuits causes doctors to over-test, over-prescribe, and over-admit, because if they lose just once, it could be staggering. The fear of lawsuits causing the above problems is a primary cause of healthcare costing what it does in this country. I'm not disagreeing with you that absolute money spent accounts for a small percentage of health costs, but the legal environment being what it is creates a climate of fear that snowballs into skyrocketing costs from other factors."
I think the benefits are questionable. Again, we should do it just because it's the right thing to do, but I don't know that we can expect a huge impact.
http://www.factcheck.org/article133.html
Posted By: J.D. Dunn (Registered) on August 19, 2009 at 03:27 PM
FedEx/UPS do not complete with USPS for first class mail delivery because USPS is a statutory monopoly.
Article I, Section 8, Clause 7 of the U.S. Constitution affirms the ability of the government to “establish Post Offices.” And various laws give the USPS a “statutory monopoly” on non-urgent First Class Mail and the exclusive right to put mail in private mailboxes.
USPS does not guarantee delivery, has monopoly power and would not exist without monopoly power.
Posted By: AdmChesterMynuts (Guest) on August 19, 2009 at 03:47 PM
Obama says there is "no silver bullet" for health care reform. So why are they insisting that the Public Option MUST be a part of reform? It's almost like they think it's a silver bullet...or they just want see universal single payer healthcare and they think this is the slow way to do it.
This plan is deeply unpopular, but the notion of reform is not. Obama capaigned on bringing legislators together in a meaningful bipartisan way, but all I see is him trying to cram through his wishlist. That's not change I can believe in.
Posted By: HopeyChangey (Guest) on August 19, 2009 at 04:15 PM
Still waiting for the Davids of the world to explain to me how this bill is indeed true Health Care Reform. Instead we get this guy talking about bombing brown people. I'm so shocked. STILL waiting. You always come in talking about how conservatives can't change. Well what are we changing to? Fair question. Come on David, you're one of the intelligent progressives, sell the bill for me.
Posted By: gwpbrian (Guest) on August 20, 2009 at 12:55 AM
David,
First of all, this is a discussion about Health Care. If you want to start a discussion about the War on Terror, we can do that in a separate venue.
And secondly, I find it interesting that you've assumed things about me without even knowing who I am. Maybe I'm a "brown person" myself?
But I understand, it's a typical tactic, you have no argument against my point, so you either attack me personally or change the subject.
Maybe next time, kid.
Posted By: Masked Defender (Guest) on August 20, 2009 at 07:55 AM
Let me ask this... would you change your babies' dirty diaper... with another dirty diaper? That's exactly what the house bill is. A dirty diaper to replace the dirty diaper that we are using. Everyone knows it needs changing. And that's why Obama is losing on this debate. Because he's trying to replace a dirty diaper with another dirty diaper.
Posted By: gwpbrian (Guest) on August 20, 2009 at 10:45 AM
Selfish fucking democrats I say!! If somebody said to you pay slightly more taxes to help millions of human beings live a better quality of life every year I would definately cough up the extra cash. All this whining about I live a healthy life therefore I should not have to pay taxes for people who choose to live in a different way to me is bull. I dont like walking around national parks but I am happy in paying my taxes to help preserve these. You win some you loose some.
Not trying to say we need to live in a Eutopian society where everybody should get hand outs, but helping others makes sense doesnt it!?
Posted By: ianh (Guest) on August 20, 2009 at 03:17 PM
Posted By: Mikel (Guest) on August 20, 2009 at 05:18 PM
@ianh,
I'm not against helping others. I'm against being FORCED to help others. And I still didn't hear a good argument about why my money should be forcibly taken from me to help someone who chooses to destroy their own life, and doesn't take responsibility for their own well being.
I'm certainly not saying we should do nothing. But ripping the best health care system in the world out from the roots and starting over is probably not the best way to approach this thing. How about we REMOVE government instead of adding more?
Posted By: Masked Defender (Guest) on August 21, 2009 at 08:07 AM
The public option has to be included in reform since private insurers have blacklisted and rescinded many of the public resulting in their inability to obtain insurance in the private market. Also, any with pre-existing condtions, small employers and other individuals who cannot afford insurance or would be discriminated against by way of overpriced premiums, denials of coverage and waiting periods have little choice but to do without insurance or pay the high premiums on substandard policies. I know this for fact. The public option will only affect a very small percentage of people since those already in employer based plans on medium to large employers are not eligible to enroll. Neither is government employees who also fall under that category. Those currently covered in Medicare are not eligible. Those low income persons on Medicaid are not eligible. So that leaves the rest of us who do not have access to affordable insurance. Since we are not in the private system to start with and private insurance refuses to accomdate low income, small employers, etc, then there is no other recourse. It is not like the President has not pleaded with private insurance to present plans that are comparable to these people and employers that are closer to those offered large employers. Nor is it not like insurance has dirty dealings that the Commerce committee is investigating now that have denied coverage for enrolled persons and rescinded coverages not due to fraud but cherry picking and it is not like they have not had time to do what is needed to include these uninsured persons, they just flat out refuse. If the public option is active, then private insurance will have the kick in the butt needed to compete for that market. As I said, thye don't want to cover these people now, so the competitive point is moot!
Posted By: Bonnieblue (Guest) on September 11, 2009 at 03:16 PM
STAY CURRENT