Understanding Afghanistan
Posted by Grant Muioc on 09.12.2009
The Spook steps out of the shadows and joins 411mania. President Obama's next big problem is the War on Terror. Find out why Iraq is important, and Afghanistan is becoming a problem. It's time to understand Afghanistan. Click the button and join the debate.
I'll save introductions for a later post, but I am the guy who is known as "The Spook"- thanks Ashish for letting me on the team. We can get real political next time, for now let's talk about why we are at war. To all the commenters- Bring your worst.
I've been out of the military less then a year.
9/11 has come again and with it the memories of the events that changed the United States. Once again we have dipshits like Charlie Sheen who think that our own government had something to do with those events- like the same government that can't have a simple debate about healthcare somehow kept 9/11 a secret and they all agreed on it. I was in college when 9/11 happened, and I joined the military within a month to kick someone's ass. I never got the chance to go and fight the Taliban right away, instead another war kicked off while I was in training. A few months later I went to Iraq instead. It never clicked why- the reasons why we went made little sense at the time, but they do now.
When I was in Iraq in 2004 I understood why I was there: To stabilize the fledgling government. In 2005, it was to ensure a peaceful election. Then it was to train Iraqi military and police officers to take my job so that I don't ever have to come back; these are just some of the reasons why US warfighters are still in Iraq. These are objectives that can be reached, that have been reached- and that is why that war will be won.
I've only been to Afghanistan to wage war. There was no other objective at the time.
The problem with Afghanistan is that it is what Richard N. Haass called a "War of Necessity". The only reason why we went to that country was to kill people in retaliation for the attacks of 9/11. Iraq is different: It's a "War of Choice" (Haass). It has been planned, executed, and run like a long-term mission. It has not always been run to the best of the government or the military's ability, but it has been run with clear purpose. We went to establish a Democracy inside the Middle-East. Not for oil, not for profit, not for revenge, but to stabilize a region of the world that is home to those who hate us. The same reasons why we turned Japan, Germany, and Italy into Democracies, we did it for security. Democracies don't usually attack other Democracies. If anyone wants to argue that point then look throughout the history of warfare, it rarely happens.
For nearly eight years the war in Iraq has been prepped, and conditioned for that purpose. It has been built upon for decades earlier during the Gulf War by President George H. W. Bush in the early 90's, further by Clinton with the Desert Fox operation of the late 90's, and fully realized under the Presidency of George W. Bush. Since the latest invasion eight years ago, not a single day has been wasted towards realizing this goal.
From a strategic standpoint Iraq is the key to the entire Middle-East. We would have been fools not to invade when the opportunity presented itself. The oil alone makes the whole ordeal worth it, considering that oil will be the next thing the world fights over (outside of water, but that is another story). Iraq borders the Kingdom of Saud, longtime potential adversaries Iran and Syria, it is within striking distance of Yemen, Egypt and Palestine should the need arise. Iraq also shares a border with an important US/NATO ally, Turkey. It also borders allies Jordon, UAE, Qatar, and Kuwait.
The people are even more complicated, but I always liked Iraqis. Iraqis always stuck me as capitalist more than religious zealots. They understood how they fit in within the world. Iraq up until they decided to invade Kuwait was a modern country and in many ways they still are. Find me an Iraqi without a cell phone or internet connection and I'll give you fifty cents. Iraq has always been more about substance over religion, a perfect fit for any western takeover. Just simply pay all the sides to stay on the sidelines and focus on killing the insurgents- that's just what we did and it has won the war. The surge helped, but the real weapon of mass destruction is money. In ten years Americans will be thankful that Iraq was taken down and replaced with something more closely representing a 51st state located in the heart of Islamic lands. But all of this only happened because Iraq was a "War of Choice".
Afghanistan on the other hand is the complete opposite. It has never existed as anything other than a piece of land to be conquered or fought over. It has nothing of value outside of being a gateway into the Middle-East or Southern Asia. There is no real reason to be there. Hell, Afghans don't even know why they are there half the time.
Afghanistan borders Iran and Pakistan. Both countries are poised to be the next areas we are drawn into, both due to the threat of nuclear proliferation into the hands of people who would actually use them against us. Strategically, Afghanistan is important but there are too many problems. The primary problem is that Iran and Pakistan are not Afghanistan- and if we are not willing to go to those places, then Afghanistan is worthless as a staging area. The second problem is that Afghanistan is poorly conditioned to support any military operations. Logistically, Afghanistan is a nightmare, it has all the security problems of Iraq and none of the major roads, airports, seaports or logistics hubs to support a full campaign.
Tactically Afghanistan poses problems for any commander. Its terrain alone makes staging warfighters nearly impossible- especially armored units, which the US and NATO allies are heavily dependent on to win any major war. The mountains cause communications problems. The uneven terrain provides poor lines of sight for artillery fire or close air support. The problem is with Afghanistan in general. Iraq has always been easy tactically- it's pretty much flat and ideal for mass movements of armor supported by air and artillery, Afghanistan is the complete opposite.
And all of that exposition brings us to the real problem: The people of Afghanistan. A backwaters group of dirty fighters that have no concept of modern government- shit, they don't even realize they are in Afghanistan half the time. The problem that Obama faces is that he is trying to turn a "War of Necessity" into a "War of Choice". Before we send over another 13,000 warfighters it would be important to understand "why". We can continue to kill terrorists without the added help and with fewer casualties by keeping our stake low. There is no reason to build a country from the ground up- I don't think we could do it without sending a few hundred thousand warfighters. Not that any amount of US warfighters matters because there isn't a military to train in Afghanistan, there isn't a State Department or functioning government …nothing exists. Dammit, they don't even understand economics so our biggest, baddest weapon the almighty dollar is practically ineffective.
Afghanistan has always been the start of something much larger. It has never been called the War in Afghanistan; it was the start of the War on Terror. Winning in Afghanistan is not vital to winning that war. The only thing that matters is bombing terrorist training camps and denying them a place to sleep. In Iraq there existed major infrastructure, none of which exist in Afghanistan, and the only export that they have is opium. There is nothing to build on.
If President Obama really wants to make strides in Afghanistan then he should take the chains off the dogs and wage a war. He needs to have a clear goal and large pocket book. Destroy anything that looks opposing, and anything that can be rebuilt. The other option is do continue to do what everyone else in Afghanistan has done- nothing. Find targets, drop a bomb, and then call it a day. Our objectives for the War on Terror sit in other countries- Afghanistan was simply a bitch slap for those who attacked us, but hardly a knock-out blow. Countries like Yemen, Somalia, and Djibouti are growing as threats that nobody recognizes. Iran will have a nuclear bomb soon, and Russian support. The key to the entire Middle-East and the security interests of the United States lie in Iraq, not Afghanistan. At this point killing Osama Bin Laden, while pleasurable, would probably martyr him to his followers.
Obama would be well suited to think rationally about an irrational war. The choice he is currently pursing is not the wisest. History has shown us that the people in Afghanistan can't be convinced to be anything other than the people in Afghanistan. They don't want change. Obama must avoid escalation of commitment just because he thinks it's a good idea- many people within the military probably think otherwise. Most importantly the critics of the war in Iraq have failed to grasp its importance, while hanging tightly to unimportance of Afghanistan, this bias is based out of political hatred for all things Bush- and have no military merit.
9/11 should remind us that we were attacked. The War in Iraq should remind us we can win (despite political disagreements and controversy). Afghanistan that should remind us that winning a war includes more than the number of troops on the battlefield, there needs to be a reason to be there. President Obama needs to be reminded of what that reason is. Obama can't build a country without fighting a real war and I don't know if he wants to do that.
Thanks for reading, next time: Rep. Joe Wilson is he a dick or is he right about Obama?...it's time to let the conservatives loose on 411mania!
You have some very interesting perspectives, I'll give you that.
Firstly, why are we in Iraq? You (sort of) say regime change. I agree with you. I believe that citations of WMDs, claims (embarrassingly made at the UN by Colin Powell) that Al Qaeda were training in Iraq and the rest of the circus from 2003 were incorrect. A mix of lies, fear and incompetence from the US and UK.
You claim that the purpose was to bring stability to Iraq. If that was the case, it has failed. Saddam, for all his faults, made the country work. He hated fundamentalism. He hated terrorism. He made Iraq stable. Removing him allowed Al Qaeda in and created the current situation.
Iraq right now is where Afghanistan was in the late 80s. Unstable, because of our actions. And failure to create a workable, locally-supported infrastructure will cause resentment in the populace - resentment that easily (and justifiably) causes anti American sentiment.
Because the US messed up and did not have a coherent plan when they interfered.
The invasion of Iraq (the war was over in April 2003, remember) is unrelated to the WTC attacks and conflating the two shows confused thinking on your part.
"Since the latest invasion eight years ago, not a single day has been wasted towards realizing this goal."
WHAT GOAL?!
"9/11 should remind us that we were attacked. The War in Iraq should remind us we can win"
WIN WHAT?!
I'd like to think that you wrote this to be deliberately provocative, a la most of your comments, but I feel that further argument would be like trying to talk to someone who is convinced that gnomes are stealing his underpants.
Posted By: Luke (Guest) on September 12, 2009 at 08:36 PM
I'm glad someone said the truth about Afghan. I've been there, it's shitty! However, one of my superiors has told me that by the time I got there (roughly two years ago) things have improved since he first got there. However, I do feel that while winning Afghan in possible, the Durand line is a hellhole, though winning there could be seen as the ultimate victory if that area were to become slightly stabilize. I do wish Obama well on this and hope he listens to his generals and not his political advisers.
Posted By: S. Guy (Guest) on September 12, 2009 at 09:02 PM
Article Prognosis: Mediocre, try harder next time
Posted By: Doctor Commentor (Guest) on September 12, 2009 at 09:28 PM
I hope you continue a conservative approach that is based in logic and reasoning, which seems to be the precedent you are trying to establish here.
Posted By: Matt Lajeskie (Guest) on September 12, 2009 at 10:43 PM
Even if we waged a full-scale war on Afghanistan like you suggest, there's really no evidence to prove we'd win even then. Afghanistan has been fighting off invading armies pretty much since forever. They even were able to turn away a superpower in the Soviet Union when they were still something to be scared of. Granted, we were supplying them with weapons and training but that's part of the problem -- Afghanistan has always had someone willing to help them fight whatever entity is invading. With the Russians it was us, and with us it's pretty much any fundamentalist kook with a grudge.
The other thing that gets overlooked is that our War on Terror and our War on Drugs are starting to converge into one big, glaring nightmare. An unintended consequence of our attacks on Colombian cartels and the Taliban is that in many areas of Afghanistan opium production has become the main source of income and/or has seen an influx of drug traffickers. As of March '08, it was the largest worldwide producer of opium. Thankfully those numbers have started to drop but it's still up there. So basically in destabilizing an already unstable country (and killing off the Colombian competition), we helped create an even larger drug trade there. Which in turns floods our streets with the byproducts of the opium. Kind of sad when you think about it.
Posted By: Guest#6436 (Guest) on September 12, 2009 at 11:49 PM
"it's time to let the conservatives loose on 411mania!"
You're not a conservative. You're a far right extremist screamer. One of those people who walk around with "Obama is a Nazi" posters.
Posted By: Q:? (Guest) on September 13, 2009 at 01:05 AM
The fact that The Spook has a column should tell you louder than anything that 411 Politics is nothing more than an amateur operation.
Your perspective is so distorted I could market this column as a kaleidoscope and make millions. We'd call it Spook-o-Vision.
Posted By: EPIC CAT (Guest) on September 13, 2009 at 02:44 AM
Congrats Spook. It was a very interesting article.
Makes me wish I had finished mine as well.
Posted By: DeimosMasque (Guest) on September 13, 2009 at 02:48 AM
Hey Luke....ask an Iraqi citizen tortured, harrassed, raped, and killed under Saddam if he "hated" terrorism.
Posted By: no option (Guest) on September 13, 2009 at 11:10 AM
EPIC CAT
Commentary is always an excursion of the amatuer. No one is an expert, or "qualified" to do it. You may have more depth of knowledge on one topic or another, but ultimately it's just talking about stuff, it's not building a bridge.
Even if there were some smell-test for commentary "The Spook" would at least pass this one considering he was a soldier participating in these wars.
Agree or Disagree, but you and guys like Q? don't have to be such bitches about it.
It's wrong to treat each other like that no matter what "side" you're on. Hell, even taking up this banner of "sides" with these dumb labels like lib and con is stupid to me. If I believe that anyone should be able to marry and do whatever the hell they want in their house with as many others as they want, but believe if they decide to come into my house uninvited to do it that I get to shoot them--am I a lib or a con?
Posted By: no option (Guest) on September 13, 2009 at 11:22 AM
Why is it that if you see something amiss as in the 9-11 disaster you are right away considered s 'dips+*t, as loony and dopey.
I for one think for myself and do my own investigation into the facts.
I'm not a 'Sheeple' who does and goes anywhere 'some' are led and think nothing about it. There is more I could say but this should suffice.
Posted By: ARITHMANCYBOB (Guest) on September 13, 2009 at 11:51 AM
So we would do somethig, not you are I, but as our government as a whole to help cause a disaster in order to get support to go to war for such as a good position over there for future wars and conflicts.
'The loss of a few thousand for the good of millions.'
You know, like at 'Pearl Harbor!
Posted By: ARITHMANCYBOB (Guest) on September 13, 2009 at 11:57 AM
If you are going to "attempt" to write an article, you should actually put some factual information.
Answer me this, why did we go to Iraq? Hmmm...? The way you wrote the article, 9/11 was just an excuse to help lower our population by a few soldiers, right? Iraq had nothign to do with 9/11. 9/11 was an excuse...end of story.
Why Afghanistan? Well, that was the area that held the person responsible for September 11th, but your conservative president was too much of a coward to end the war quickly. He wanted to use 9/11 as an excuse to send troops over there to die....
Posted By: David (Guest) on September 13, 2009 at 02:02 PM
That was possibly the most retarded piece of writing I have seen in ages. And the comments are stupid as well. What happened to this blog? I don't remember it being so bad. It really has gone downhill since Ashish stopped writing. Bottom line is the US invaded the sovereign nation of Iraq, then occupied it (a la the Third Reich, the Soviet Empire, etc.) I didn't know that there was EVER a valid reason (except genocide or an act of war) for invading another country. The US will not be satisfied until they destabilize every country in the region they feel necessary in order to dominate the oil system. I'm surprised that nobody finds that repulsive. Don't you people have any moral thought processes at all? For a country that imagines itself to be followers of Jesus, the lack of the simplest bit of moral foundation boggles the mind.
1.5 trillion dollars allocated for butchering Muslims and not a cent for universal health care. If that's "What Jesus Would Do", then I prefer secular humanism. I'm sooo sick of America. I really do wish I could move to Europe like people are quick to advise, but its next to impossible. Though, hopefully by this time next week, I'll be will have started my next job offer in Saudi Arabia. The Gulf is actually pretty nice, but quite frankly anything is better than this.
Posted By: About to throw up (Guest) on September 13, 2009 at 04:28 PM
If you are going to "attempt" to write an article, you should actually put some factual information.
Answer me this, why did we go to Iraq? Hmmm...? The way you wrote the article, 9/11 was just an excuse to help lower our population by a few soldiers, right? Iraq had nothign to do with 9/11. 9/11 was an excuse...end of story.
Why Afghanistan? Well, that was the area that held the person responsible for September 11th, but your conservative president was too much of a coward to end the war quickly. He wanted to use 9/11 as an excuse to send troops over there to die....
Posted By: David (Guest) on September 13, 2009 at 02:02 PM
Yay! More David yay! David, the most galactically stupid cuntatatious twatdripping suckheaded fuckhole of all time yay! We missed you at the home, David! Do you know how hard it is to get a retard to clean all the toilets here? We so miss you. You did a good job, and you were cheap, too...Playdoh to keep you entertained, and paste to eat. Please come back, David...this attempt at rational discussion isn't really suitable for one of your limited mental capacity. It took us five years to train you to not pick your nose and try to type. Come back to clean toilets, where it's safe and warm for you. I have your favorite paste! Borden's just like you used to love.
Posted By: Christ, David Sucks! (Guest) on September 13, 2009 at 04:33 PM
David,
Show me where I said that 9/11 and Iraq are directly related?
You're missing the point of the article: The War is Iraq was won (it is won) because it was treated like an ongoing mission to build a democracy, had ideal terrain for military operations, and Iraqis willing to embrace freedom (even if it took about six years). Iraqis beat Al Queada of Iraq, with a little help from us.
Afghanistan has always been a four phase operation- none of those phases include standing up a new government.
The point being made is that if Obama wants to treat Afghanistan like Iraq, then he needs to understand that the terrain and the people in Afghanistan will not cooperate like the Iraqis.
I don't think you read the article.
Or I was not clear.
From a military perspective Iraq and Afghanistan are part of the same conflict...and Iraq (although not directly responisble in any way for the events of 9/11) never upheld the terms of their own surrender- and too bad for them they live on ideal terrain for conducting the War on Terror. They got rolled.
Everything that I pointed out was a "Fact"- but you are probably not someone who can argue facts, because you are blinded by bias.
And I seriously doubt that you understand military operations, 2nd and 3rd order effects, or even basic political science...
I never said Iraq caused 9/11, I said that Iraq is the key to the entire Middle-East, and that Afghanistan from a strategic standpoint is not really that important- at least not important enough to country build.
I hope this clears somethings up for people who may be confused- but I think that those who are confused never actually read the entire article, so that's on you.
Posted By: Grant Muioc (Registered) on September 13, 2009 at 04:42 PM
"Hey Luke....ask an Iraqi citizen tortured, harrassed, raped, and killed under Saddam if he "hated" terrorism.
Posted By: no option (Guest) on September 13, 2009 at 11:10 AM"
Ask Cheney, Rumsfeld and the Bush the same question.
And if you wish to argue semantics, although there is no widely accepted definition of terrorism, most attempts specify that the perpetrator is a member of a non-state group - any act Saddam committed while in power, within the borders of his own country - would not therefore be terrorism.
And your comment does not address the statement that Saddam was an enemy of alQaeda, which was my main point.
Posted By: Luke (Guest) on September 13, 2009 at 06:50 PM
Excellent beginning. There is no way the list of reasons you gave for going to Iraq would fly in Congress, but they make a helluvalot more sense than any of the reasons that we were actually given.
Am I interpreting correctly that you would advocate pulling out of (or at least greatly reducing operations in) Afghanistan?
Posted By: J. Alexander Mitchell (Guest) on September 13, 2009 at 09:55 PM
c'mon Luke...are you seriously suggesting that Bush et.al had rape chambers set up where they forced innocent civilians to watch their loved ones 'enjoyed' and tortured at the hands of Saddamists. I won't argue nor deny the terribl collateral damage of war, but to suggest that our unfortunate bystander casualties is of the same ilk as his victims is playing with extreme shades of gray. If you truly believe Bush to be as vile and detestible and approaching the horrors of Saddam's tyranny then so be it, but I don't think they compare, especially on intent. What bothers me is all the places people call for us to go police and drive out tyranny but it has to be the 'approved' campaign. Mr. Clooney's campaign for African intervention, but isn't that what we just did in Iraq, but since Bush did it and Hollywood didn't ask for it, then it was horrible. I'd rather we not go anywhere and let people hate us for being isolationist and not sacrifice ours for ungrateful bastards.
But if you are fine with the enemy of my enemy is my friend style of policy, then look at a history book and see where that policy has failed multiple times...perhaps pretty much every time.
Posted By: no option (Guest) on September 13, 2009 at 10:37 PM
Thanks J Alex Mitch,
I think you get the point- I'm not worried about the justification of either wars, just their executions for this "article".
I would rather that we don't escalate Afghanistan with the hopes of building a Democracy- it will cost ten times as much as Iraq, in both lives and money.
It is possible, but I doubt that Obama has the balls to see it through. Bush held firm with Iraq, it cost the republcians everything, but in the end it was the right thing to do from a strategic point of view.
Thanks for the compliment- this was my first one, the next few will be more down to earth and accessible to a larger group of people. I made one Charlie Sheen reference and I've had three emails from people trying to tell me 9/11 was conducted by Bush... I should have just said that Muslim Hijackers caused 9/11, I would have a million comments about how stupid I am or how shitty the article was.
Posted By: Grant Muioc (Registered) on September 13, 2009 at 10:42 PM
no option -
No, of course I'm not suggesting that. You know I'm not.
I was however suggesting that Bush, Cheney and Rumsfeld condoned torture and harassment of their enemies.
And at no point was I referring to the unfortunate innocents caught in the crossfires.
And, again, alQaeda was not in Iraq until the US and UK removed Saddam.
Regime change - for moral and humanitarian reasons - would probably be far more popular with the public than the stated reasons for the Iraq invasion (to protect ourselves and stop terrorism).
People in Iraq and Afghanistan aren't ungrateful for the removal of their respective Govt.s They're ungrateful because - for the general public - day-to-day overly-strict capricious fascism has been replaced by total chaos. We took them out of a frying pan and dropped them straight into the fire.
Once again, I supported the removal of Saddam Hussein - but the failure to adequately plan a structure to replace him was criminal.
Posted By: Luke (Guest) on September 14, 2009 at 12:35 AM
ok everyone seems to forget, yes powell got embarressed at the un, but gee where were these people when kerry said, if saddam got nuclear weapons and were unfettered he would be a threat, a thought that was echoed by hillary clinton, and dems made stronger cases for saddam and wmd's, then bush ever did, oh yeah that's right because there liberal they were just brainwashed by the intelligence they were getting, that oh by the way, the russians,pakastani's british and many other intellgince agencies said saddam had wmd's and gee oh by the way in the 1990's he did use mustard gas on his own people
Posted By: coby preiemsberger (Guest) on September 14, 2009 at 02:07 AM
"Regime change - for moral and humanitarian reasons - would probably be far more popular with the public than the stated reasons for the Iraq invasion (to protect ourselves and stop terrorism)."
The problem I (and many others) have had with the argument of regime change is this -- how do we justify it? Yes, Saddam was a terrible person, but we've supported dictators/organizations as bad as Saddam (Pinochet, Contras, etc). If we posit the idea of regime change then what we're really saying is that if we don't like the way you run a country we'll launch a full-scale invasion and overthrow your government. That's a scary thought.
The other problem then comes in how we choose to apply this rule. If we're objecting to Saddam over humanitarian reasons, then what of someone like Robert Mugabe and Zimbabwe? Do we intervene in Iran's insanely contested elections since their own police forces have killed protesting civilians, and the government is in the process of jailing opposition leaders? How do we respond to Sri Lanka's continued attacks on its Tamil population? Are we going to attack China because we disagree with its suppression of free speech and jailing of independently-minded journalists? Which humanitarian causes do we stand up for, or do we stand up for all of them?
Regime change sounds nice as an argument but it creates a conflict too great for the United States to handle on its own. The fact that the justification for Iraq was switched from WMDs to regime change was a very cynical move to begin with, but to try and say that it was the better argument to use from the beginning is just downright sad. A better argument for a bad idea still ends up being a flawed argument.
Posted By: Guest#1564 (Guest) on September 14, 2009 at 05:49 AM
I've never really agreed at all with Spook, but I've respected the way he defends his arguments. Thanks for posting and please write more, its always more fun to have the spectrum covered then just being onesided.
Posted By: Gnome (Guest) on September 14, 2009 at 02:18 PM
After reading a few paragraphs I did a search on the word "Soviet." Not mentioning the Soviet Union when talking about Afghanistan is like not mentioning Japan when talking about World War 2. What role did we play in the war between the Soviets and the Taliban? How did things end for the Soviets, and what should we have learned from that war? What relationship did Osama bin Laden have with the leadership of Afghanistan during that war?
While this column is more coherent than most of The Spook's rants, it still jumps all over the place (as others noted, why talk so much about Iraq?) and is more about hyperbole than actually trying to debate Obama's plan compared to what Bush was doing and what we should have learned from Afghanistan's past conflicts.
Posted By: correction (Guest) on September 14, 2009 at 10:03 PM
Grant, this was a great article. You hit everything right on the head with Afghanistan, Iraq & 9/11.
For someone who served in military, I want to thank you for everything you & all men and women in uniform do for America. Thank you for protecting us & keeping our country safe; letting us live our lives.
For all the anti-American bashers, conspirators...
THEY CAN SUCK IT
Posted By: Tom (Guest) on September 15, 2009 at 05:16 PM
Didn't I read that you are a teacher? God help us all.
Posted By: Dillrock (Guest) on September 15, 2009 at 10:11 PM
Nope never been a teacher- you're think of shockmaster...
Posted By: Grant Muioc (Guest) on September 16, 2009 at 12:23 PM