Was President Obama Lying About Healthcare
Posted by Grant Muioc on 09.18.2009
Was Joe Wilson telling the truth? Join the debate!
Let's get political.
Representative Joe Wilson accused President Obama of lying about illegals being denied healthcare. Was he correct that the President was lying?
President Obama stated last week during his healthcare speech, "There are also those who claim that our reform efforts would insure illegal immigrants. This, too, is false. The reforms, the reforms I'm proposing would not apply to those who are here illegally."
Words mean something. These matter because President Obama just went on the record against a 20 year old existing policy that already provides free emergency healthcare to everyone, including illegal immigrants (illegals, here after). Obama has no intention of killing this bill according to any of the healthcare plans already in Congress.
The Emergency Medical Treatment and Active Labor Act (EMTALA) was signed in 1986, under a Democrat controlled House, a Republican controlled Senate and by President Ronald Reagan. The bill stated that anyone who shows up at a hospital must be treated, regardless of citizenship. If the hospital finds out that the person is an illegal they still can't deny care. Why would a Republican Senate and a Republican President sign off on this bill?
Another bill was introduced a few years before to slow the tide of illegal immigration, a bill called the "The Immigration Reform and Control Act." The bill sat in Congress for a few years before passing in 1986.
The Immigration Reform and Control Act (IRCA)was designed to keep the flow of illegals down so any burden on the US economy they might be causing would slow, if not stop. Naturally, the bill was opposed by civil rights groups. The plan was compromised and it allowed roughly three million illegals already in the US to gain amnesty. This amnesty created a larger cost burden because these people never had to pay income taxes if they declined citizenship, but they were free to stay in the states enjoying all the same privileges.
These two bills, EMTALA and IMRCA, should have offset each another, but instead they simply compounded the issue of taxpayer burden. Instead of free healthcare regardless of citizenship and limiting the amount of illegals in the country, the two bills became free healthcare and amnesty if an illegal could get into the country before the deadline. Future amnesty bills completely degraded the IRCA, making it pointless within a few years.
EMTALA has never really changed. It is arguably the cause of most of the problems with healthcare today. It is estimated that roughly 55% of emergency room visits never actually get paid for, causing the hospital to eat the costs and pass them to you. One newspaper cited "The most comprehensive study on the subject found that 24 counties in four states bordering Mexico wracked up $190 million in unpaid emergency medical bills caring for illegals in the year 2000. The study, commissioned by the U.S.-Mexico Border Counties Coalition, found that California spent $79 million of that; Texas, $74 million; Arizona, $31 million; and New Mexico, $6 million…American hospitals lose $1.45 billion a year" (http://www.tucsonweekly.com/tucson/catastrophe-in-care/Content?oid=1080476). This figure does not count the total illegal population in every state, or poor Americans not paying hospital bills. The problem with welfare like EMTALA is once it's on the books it never goes away, no matter how costly or ineffective it might be. America this is your healthcare crisis. This cost is passed to consumers and it drives up the cost of treatment.
The next problem is with the amnesty bills themselves. IRMC ultimately never mattered because the government just kept offering more amnesty. President Bill Clinton signed four amnesty bills that allowed millions more to stay, including ones specifically for Hispanics, Nicaraguans, and Haitians. He then signed "The Late Amnesty Bill" allowing another 400,000 illegals to stay just before leaving office. President George W. Bush also allowed millions of illegals to remain in the country, and in fact illegal immigration rose to record levels under his watch. Under EMTALA all these people are entitled to healthcare by law, without paying a cent. With a new amnesty bill every few years, illegals flood to the states and simply wait to be amnestied. Our hospitals suffer and Americans pay. The Worst of all, these amnesty bills never required illegals to become citizens or pay back taxes.
How does any of this make Obama a liar? Actually it doesn't, not yet. However, none of the current healthcare bills being pushed through congress have added a mechanism to turn off EMTALA. There have been pushes by Republicans to add restrictions to healthcare, notably showing a valid US ID before any care is provided. These attempts have been stopped by the Democrats. Obama is either lying about illegals not being covered, or some new healthcare bill being written that will kill EMTALA.
Hospitals do need to make a profit to stay in business. If EMTALA remains then a serious question arises of complete government takeover of healthcare. Hospitals will have to rely on government bailouts to remain open. Maybe this is Obama's plan?
Obama has used the number "45 million" as the number of uninsured people in the US who lack healthcare plans. However, during his speech Obama used the number "30 million." The difference, 15 million, is roughly equal to the estimated illegal population to be in the United States.
Some questions that I have:
1) Does this reduced number of people to be covered by Obama's healthcare reform translate to a bill costing 600 billion instead of 900 billion? (Roughly a third less money for a third less covered?)
2) What does this mean for Obama's own amnesty bill he promised to have built before the end of the year?
3) Does this mean the end of EMTALA, and would the Democrats really have the balls to kill their Hispanic base that depends on this bill for healthcare?
Healthcare reform does not matter until EMTALA is removed. A Public Option might work if you keep the illegals from sucking the money out of the overall system. Then Obama will need to kill future amnesty bills that fail to require full citizenship because someone needs to pay for healthcare. That means making people pay taxes for living in the United States, especially if they want cheap healthcare alternatives.
Joe Wilson is a dick; the President deserves respect within certain forums. Respect the rank, if not the man at the very least. Joe Wilson has already apologized to the President and that should be the end of that matter, but not of the problem with illegals taking advantage of the healthcare system.
UPDATE: Rep. Joe Wilson was admonished by Congress for his actions, marking the first time that has ever happen in our nation's history. He was also called a racist by nearly every Democrat in Congress, fucking Jimmy Carter, MSNBC's Keith Olbermann, Chris Matthews and Ron Reagan. I understand why they would admonish him, but why call him a racist?
Obama and the Democrats added a provision that would force people to have valid US ID's before healthcare could be offered. While this motion sounds great, and it is, it has already met resistance from the Congressional Hispanic Caucus. The Hispanic Caucus includes 19 Democrats and one Independent. They have said they would not sign off or support any healthcare bill that has an ID provision in it. Democrats depend on Hispanic votes in certain states. They cater to illegals by passing legislation so valid ID's are not required to vote, 26 states have this law. The Hispanic Caucus is attempting to do the same for healthcare reform.
Joe Wilson was right about Obama lying when he said it, because the ID proposition was not agreed on until early this week, after Obama's speech on healthcare. Joe Wilson still got admonished for telling the truth and called a racist. He should sue.
Somebody please tell me what the hell the Democrats want? Do they want healthcare reform that helps tax payers or not? Now the question is if any of you liberals can defend this behavior without blaming Bush, Conservatives, Republicans, Tea baggers, rich people or law enforcement?
Hospitals need to make a profit? I'm sorry, but if it was up to me Doctors should be payed as little as possible. They have a duty to heal the sick and it should not matter if they have money. Doctors are too greedy when it comes to money because each and everyone of them gets in the health industry because it pays well. We need to change that so that doctors are not payed as well. That will drop healthcare prices down more than denying people cover just because they're not here "legally". NOBODY BUT THE NATIVE AMERICANS ARE LEGAL! THESE PEOPLE HAVE EVERY RIGHT TO BE HERE.
Posted By: Dan (Guest) on September 18, 2009 at 06:05 PM
Interesting stuff - that article you cited raises another issue though. If you cut off the ability for illegals to get care, you could end up with potential outbreaks of disease, especially in those areas with high concentrations of illegal immigrants (Texas, Arizona, New Mexico, etc.). While the current system is not the most cost effective strategy by a long shot, it could lead to far worse things than inflated costs.
It all comes back to border control when you think about it. You can't really stop the flood until you shore up the dam.
Posted By: Scott (Guest) on September 18, 2009 at 06:19 PM
Ah, gotta love racists who don't understand why they're called racists. I'm sure Joe Wilson's past history (such as working for Strom Thurmond) and being from the South have had zero effect on the level of respect he shows for people of a different color.
Obama didn't lie, and you admit as much yourself (although as always there's the "prove a negative" out - "it's not in there but it could be!"). Joe Wilson did something that hasn't been seen in Congress in centuries - harass a sitting president. Yet you want us to believe that Obama is wrong and Joe Wilson is right? Get over yourself, and let us know what YOUR plan is for health care since I have yet to hear one from the conservative commentators on this site (oh except for the mythical tort reform, which is bogus on its face).
Posted By: correction (Guest) on September 18, 2009 at 06:40 PM
If doctors are paid as little as possible, no one would go into the field. Don't get me wrong, I assume most doctors enjoy helping people but who would go through the YEARS of education (not to mention cost involved) if they were not compensated well. I'll take the highest paid SOB out there to work on me because it probably means he is good. If you want that C- student removing your brain tumor more power to you Dan.
Posted By: Guest#4707 (Guest) on September 18, 2009 at 07:31 PM
He said it would not insure illegal aliens. That is not a lie. They would not be eligible for the new insurance plans.
Emergency care is not the same thing as health insurance. Related, yes. Same, no. They are currently working on an overhaul of the health insurance industry. That is different than the law that requires hospitals to treat the people who come into an emergency room.
Basically, we are talking about the reform of one of the largest contributors to the high cost of healthcare with this bill. This will not be the last bill on the subject of healthcare, because there is a whole lot more to fix.
So as part of you article, you also mentioned all the others who default on their emergency room bills. Those people would now have insurance, remember. That is a gain to the hospital. And frankly hospitals "losing" under $2 billion dollars is hardly the largest contributor to high health costs. That is less than 1/10 of a percent of what this nation spends on healthcare. I said "losing" because they didn't lose out on that money, it is budgeted in to their rates and has been for years.
Perhaps another area to look at is how the non-profit status of many hospitals is played out with surpluses being plowed back into new facilities which then prompts increases in rates because the hospital now offers new services that are often not needed in the market (i.e. another hospital has this lab in the same city). The University of Nebraska Medical Center, more or less a neighbor of mine, has built or is in the process of building 7 new major buildings in the three years I have lived here. This is only on the campus i live next to, not counting their brand new campuses in the western part of the city. Instead of building new facilities, when adequate ones exist, why don't they simply lower the cost of care?
Immigration is a problem, but it is likely one that will not be addressed in a meaningful way until there is no incentive to leave where you are from. Healthcare is a minor incentive, but so are vast differences in standards of living. As long as the American dream outshines the Mexican dream, the Haitian dream or the FILLINTHEBLANK dream, we will see people coming here to try and get their piece. That is part of the cost of having high standards of living, high availability of leisure activities and being able to be to dissent freely.
Posted By: Matt in Omaha (Guest) on September 18, 2009 at 07:32 PM
Everyone here knows I'm a big Libbie at heart. I've got no love for Bush, his cadre of overlords, or what the Republican Party has sadly become today.
And Joe Wilson is absolutely a stupid ass for shouting out "You Lie!" in the midst of a presidential speech.
But how "you lie" gets translated to racism by Jimmy Carter (I haven't seen/heard other Dems say it, so I won't comment on that) is beyond me.
I know there is still a lot of racism in this country; I know a lot of white people don't like to admit it exists.
And of course, there are the total morons and delusional people who claim that calling him "Barack Hussein Obama" isn't racist; or that insinuating he's a Muslim terrorist isn't racist; or sending pictures of the White House with watermelons all over the lawn isn't racist either.
But enough about the Republicans...
Ok, ok, I kid, I kid...
Clearly, there are, and have been things, both done to and said to, Obama that are indubitably motivated and prompted by a deep-seeded racism.
But "you lie" is not one of these.
Joe Wilson has apologized (I'm personally not sure it's genuine, but so what?). He's been reprimanded by the Congress. His opponent raised like $700,000 nearly overnight due to his insane outburst. And his "you lie" moment will be youtubed by millions and utilized to its maximum use by his opponent in the next election
Joe Wilson, as stupid as he might be, has suffered enough. There's no need to jump on him any more, especially with idiocy like a charge of racism.
Move along, people. Nothing (left) to see.
Posted By: Crow21 (Guest) on September 18, 2009 at 08:28 PM
I would like Grant to define what constitutes an illegal immigrant. I think it's such a basic thing that, much like "our taxes are too high!" people don't really understand the issue. What makes someone an illegal alien, and would they be denied health care, health care insurance, or emergency health care? Because all 3 of those things are different too.
I have a sneaking suspicion that a lot of folks think it means "no brown people should be in our hospitals."
Posted By: correction (Guest) on September 18, 2009 at 08:28 PM
Buddy, I don't get what you want. You criticize Obama on a technicality that illegal immigrants can ALREADY get emergency care (and they should, no one should get turned away from a hospital in a legitimate emergency whether they have a green card or not) but then you criticize the Democrats because the Hispanic caucus (which amounts to 20 people out of hundreds of Democrats in Congress) oppose it. The Hispanic caucus doesn't speak for the Democratic party any more than conservative Christians speak for the Republicans.
So I don't know what you're mad about. You just stated that they added an ID provision but are critical because illegals could get coverage? And why is a health care debate turning into an immigration debate?
I've got bad news. We can't do anything about immigrants. It's just not realistically feasible to remove 15 million people already hiding from the federal government, at least not without BILLIONS in increased spending, and even then we could probably get a fraction at best. It's not possible to plug our porous borders without BILLIONS in increased spending. But a health care bill that will genuinely save millions of lives isn't worth the money? If we put in ten percent of what we spend every year on defense we could easily fund it, but stockpiling $30 million smart bombs that will in all likelihood will be obsolete before they're used is more of a priority.
I know the health care plan isn't perfect, but it's SOMETHING. If this dies, it will be another decade or more before we see legislation with a chance of passing. Meanwhile, those that oppose it aren't taking any real offense against the meat of the plan, but are pursuing a strategy of death by a thousand cuts. We should be talking at length about different systems, public options, funding and how to pay for it, which are all legitimate debates, but I hear much much more about death panels and illegal immigrants.
I work with a woman whose husband is dying of cancer because their insurance company dropped them once care became too expensive. In all likelihood, unless they get some kind of assistance from the hospital, he will probably die. Meanwhile, Mr. Muioc here would lampoon an entire bill that could save millions of lives like this over the life of our country so that stitches for an illegal immigrant won't come out of his pocket.
If it's not perfect, then LET'S FIX IT! But don't shoot down an entire life-saving referendum because you don't like a couple of the details. I want to hear the Republicans offer realistic solutions instead of nitpicking to try and kill it. Our health care system in this country is broken, and it is NEVER going to fix itself on it's own. Ever. Anybody who says otherwise is fooling themselves.
Posted By: General Sandoval (Guest) on September 18, 2009 at 09:17 PM
Gen Sandoval, I would too. I would LOVE to see the majority party have republicans in on the discussion. They simply won't do that. And we agree, healthcare needs an overhaul. However, that doesn't mean that the House Bill, or the Baucus bill is the answer. And exactly WHAT IS Obama's plan. Once again, in his speech last week, and I'm sure this Sunday, he will once again do what he is very good at, and that is point out the problems with our current system. Well thats great, but most people agree with and can point out those same problems. What we need are real solutions, and so far, he hasn't been able to come up with any that have satisfied the american people. He keeps saying, "his bill", well which "bill" is he endorsing? The house bill? The Baucus Bill? Which one?
Anyone can look at any issue and point out problems. It's no different than looking at your favorite football team, and noticing that the Quarterback can't stop throwing interceptions, and you say "we need a new one." FANTASTIC. Oh but wait, your back up QB is just as bad and a lot of scouts and coaches say even worse. You're still back to square 1.
Posted By: gwpbrian (Guest) on September 18, 2009 at 11:14 PM
Considering the considerable investment in education that doctors make, I think the average docter in underpaid. A decade of education and hundreds of thousands in tuition and resident training? Look at Medicare reinbursment rates before criticizing someone who has put that much of their life into their profession.
Posted By: Str8Edge (Guest) on September 19, 2009 at 12:23 AM
First off, General Sandoval, I'm not your "buddy", guy.
Second, anyone who refuses to think that healthcare insurance reform, EMTALA, illegals soaking the system and the cost of healthcare in general are not interconnected is retarded.
That's like saying the housing market, the credit market, and the banks are not connected- or do we really need to repeat that mistake?
And I'm still waiting for a Democrat to explain why we need healthcare reform that costs a trillion dollars that still does not address the problems killing the health system we already have.
So bang on Republicans for not having a plan, but don't expect me to praise Democrats for having a really shitty one.
That would like saying the best way to get to the moon is to jump off a fucking cliff, because I can't tell you a better way.
It may look like your getting closer, but in reality your jumping into a situation that you can't control.
That's what these Democratic plans offer, empty promises and big price tags...and if I was wrong then there would not be a debate, and your defense would not be "What is your plan to respond to my really shitty one".
The only reason why Dems are pushing this shit now- without a viable plan- is because they have control of the Congress. And those 20 Hispanic Caucus guys matter because that shitty party can't even agree on how shitty their plan is for healthcare...Dems need every vote- they matter.
So my vote is the same as always- don't do a fucking thing until we have something that works.
And I've already listed about ten ways to make healthcare cheaper, and I'm not repeating myself to someone who simply says that Republicans have not offered a better plan- because that's not true.
The media is not giving them any attention- just like that Acorn fiasco- and what's the fucking point, they are going to destroy the Dems next year in the elections and then roll out their own healthcare plan...why give the Dems the credit now? It's not like any of their stupid plans are going to pass.
Got it- buddy?
Or do I need to be clearer with my position? Friend.
Posted By: Grant Muioc (Guest) on September 19, 2009 at 12:31 AM
We ceast to be a country if we cannot control our border! Does Africa ring a bell???
Posted By: emenot (Guest) on September 19, 2009 at 06:57 AM
I believe the reason why no one - Democrat or Republican - has mentioned changing EMTALA in any way is that it is not designed to provide treatment irregardless of citizenship. It is designed to provide treatment irregardless of INSURANCE STATUS. To force identification in an emergency situation just to stem the tide of illegal immigrants using health care facilities will (and I'm sure this is actually literal in this case) throw the baby out with the bath water.
Let's say I get mugged and injured. I somehow end up in the ER, with no identification and unconscious. By removing EMTALA, the hospital will have me sit outside and die.
I think our country is a bit better than that.
Posted By: J. Alexander Mitchell (Registered) on September 19, 2009 at 09:31 AM
"And of course, there are the total morons and delusional people who claim that calling him "Barack Hussein Obama" isn't racist"
Now maybe I'm just a silly Canadian with no knowledge of American race issues, but how is calling a man by his name racist? Wikipedia, his birth certificate and anything else with his full name on it are all racist? Hussein IS his middle name, isn't it?
lol wow... can't even use a man's name without being called racist... and I thought we were politically correct here in the Frozen North!
Posted By: canuck (Guest) on September 19, 2009 at 10:43 AM
Maybe its just me, but isn't the key word "ILLEGAL". Maybe if they were legal residence, then it would be another story, but the fact is they're breaking the law. ILLEGAL is ILLEGAL no matter which way you cut it.
When doesn't a president lie? Politicians are all liars and will always be liars. Duh.
Posted By: Legal Man (Guest) on September 19, 2009 at 12:26 PM
Grant, no disrespect to you, but if you really believe that Obama lied and the Republicans are going to retake Congress next year, you are either delusional or just plain not smart. The Republicans have no real alternatives or plan to Obama's ideas. Their budget fiasco proved that. They are being led by idiots and loons like Limbaugh and Beck. The people that should be leading the party are keeping quiet so as not to incur the wrath of those indiviuals. And their so-called leader, Michael Steele, is a horrible politician without Bob Ehrlich behind him. Joe Wilson has been proven not only to have lied with "You lie!", he has also proven to be a hypocrite, as he voted to insure illegal immigrants back in 2003 or 2005 (forgive me, I don't have the bill right in front of me). So, he "flip-flopped", ala John Kerry.
Get real man! The GOP is a lost cause. They aren't voting on principle, they're voting just to say no to the guy in charge. That's not doing what's best for the country, that's doing what's best to cover your own ass.
They are on the verge of becoming a morden-day Whig Party: irrelevant. As far as their plan, I'd love to see something from them. But they have nothing, and they know it. Otherwise, they'd have put something out by now.
Posted By: CMatt666 (Guest) on September 19, 2009 at 01:13 PM
"throw the baby out with the bath water."
WHICH IS JUST WHAT OBAMA WANTS!
Ahem.
"Now the question is if any of you liberals can defend this behavior without blaming Bush, Conservatives, Republicans, Tea baggers, rich people or law enforcement?"
That's a silly gauntlet. That would be like saying, "I DARE a conservative to defend the Iraq war without mention Saddam, rape rooms, WMD, Al-Qaeda, 9/11 or Iran." You're asking people to exclude relevant facts that you find inconvenient.
I don't get how anyone can say Joe Wilson was telling the truth when A) the bill specifically says no coverage for illegals, regardless of the enforcement mechanism, and B) the emergency room issues & insurance issues are completely separate *thanks to* EMTALA, not because of it, and C) the emergency room argument is moot thanks to a compensation bill that Wilson supported.
Posted By: J.D. Dunn (Registered) on September 19, 2009 at 02:59 PM
Okay I totally dug the South Park reference until you called me retarded for something I didn't say.
Anyway, I never said that illegal immigrants and health care weren't interconnected. Nor anything close. I was commenting on your ability to take something as complicated as health care reform and condemn it for one small detail. I was saying there are much more important things we should be talking about right now. I wrote six freaking paragraphs and you're harping on one thing I never said and another that was a passing comment.
You are absolutely right in saying that just because a plan exists we don't have to follow it even if there isn't an alternative. However, to equate a national health care plan to jumping off a cliff is a terrible metaphor. WE'RE ALREADY FALLING OFF THE CLIFF. Right now we're trying to figure out how to not splatter on impact, and your suggestion is to keep falling and try nothing.
Congratulations on missing literally EVERYTHING I was saying. All I was saying in calling out the Republicans for not having anything to add to the conversation was expressing that I WISH they did. I'm an ardent independent, and I think this whole system works best when both sides compromise to work something out. SO BRING SOMETHING TO THE TABLE! Please! Instead the right just criticizes the details and refuses to negotiate. How does that solve anything? By using this strategy no problem that faces this country will ever get solved.
You and your ilk are trying desperately to scare people into thinking that this plan will literally destroy the country and ten years from now we'll all be living in refrigerator boxes and eating out of the trash. You very much have a point that the plan is too expensive, and THAT IS WHAT WE NEED TO BE TALKING ABOUT. Try to fix the plan, please. If you are going to admit there is a problem with health care in the country, which you do, and then condemn the only plan on the table and strive for it's demise, which you do, THEN YOU BETTER HAVE A BETTER IDEA, which you don't. Your logic, in this respect, is flawed.
Doing nothing is no longer a viable long-term solution for this country. Please suggest an alternative or try to fix what you disagree with on the current plan. Don't just shoot it down because you're told to by the talking heads. You challenged us to defend health care without mentioning Bush, tea baggers, etc., now I ask you to tell us what your alternative is. You allude to a Republican plan that will magically unveil after they are back in vogue, but to make a nation in desperate need wait just so Democrats can't claim credit for it is selfish and egotistical. We should all be working together so solve problems, but people like Grant here just want to point fingers.
Posted By: General Sandoval (Guest) on September 19, 2009 at 07:30 PM
Why dont we let the illegals into the hospital and while we are giving them care we call the deportation agency?
Works great cause the ones that show up at hospitals for help get deported, and the ones that dont will inevitably die of their ailments.
We all win.
Posted By: AG Awesome (Guest) on September 20, 2009 at 09:03 AM
Anybody else remember a time when NOBODY could call the president a liar or say he was lying? Try real hard - it was about 9 months ago. If you did dare say George Bush lied, you hated America and wanted the terrorists to win. Now if you call the president a liar, you're the real American. Funny how those things switched around when the letter behind the president's name changed from (R) to (D).
My favorite part of this column tho: saying Joe Wilson should SUE. Let me guess, Grant: is TORT REFORM one of your platforms for healthcare reform? Conservatives should just call themselves Hypocrites and embrace it.
Posted By: correction (Guest) on September 20, 2009 at 05:44 PM
Correction,
I get it- you are a liberal, no need to keep rubbing it in.
And yeah, Tort Reform would help out, since you asked- because without it none of Obama's little healthcare tax anything that earns income plans won't work either.
Posted By: Grant Muioc (Guest) on September 21, 2009 at 01:24 AM
Are there two Grants posting? Because the one in comments sounds like the old Spook and nothing like the guy who wrote the editorial. I mean "tax anything that earns income" plan? That's just a flat out lie. YOU LIE! Uh oh - maybe you'll sue me now.
Posted By: correction (Guest) on September 21, 2009 at 03:28 PM
Let's say I get mugged and injured. I somehow end up in the ER, with no identification and unconscious. By removing EMTALA, the hospital will have me sit outside and die.
I think our country is a bit better than that.
Posted By: J. Alexander Mitchell (Registered) on September 19, 2009 at 09:31 AM
Oh, it definitely is better than that J. Of course, our President voted essentially to do just what you described to babies born alive after botched abortion attempts when he voted against the Born Alive Protection Act three times while a member of the Illinois state senate, but shit, he probably didn't mean it (everyone knows you have to do something four times for it to mean anything) so I trust him to lead the moral argument for health care for everybody.
Posted By: Da Man (Guest) on September 22, 2009 at 02:20 PM
STAY CURRENT