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 411mania » Politics » Blog Entry
Us vs. Them: The Erosion of Civil Discourse
Posted by Jason Douglas on 09.23.2009



Greetings once again from the former Shockmaster (this is the last time I'll go out of my way to note that). I was having trouble settling on what to write about this week, so I sat back and waited for inspiration. We had a major story on ACORN advising people on ways to conduct criminal behavior without getting caught, which some immediately associated with Obama. There's no denying the number of unsavory characters he surrounds himself with. But making a firm connection and claiming one reflects the character of the other calls for too much speculation at this point. Then we have Jimmy Carter playing the race card over Joe Wilson's outburst. He offered no proof at all that race was a factor in Wilson's deplorable behavior. It's the sort of thing where if you're predisposed to believe it, then minor details like proof don't matter.

J. Alexander Mitchell wrote in his most recent post: "when you find yourself immediately rejecting a thought as wrong, make a concerted effort to understand why the person that says it makes the statement that s/he does". This is the perspective I used when writing about Republican obstruction, looking to get in their heads and see where they're coming from rather than being dismissive. In doing so I actually found my own take on things evolving simply by looking at the same issue from a different perspective.

Robert Zimmer shined a light on the values preaching still going on from the right. In particular was a claim that watching straight porn can turn you gay. That's when inspiration hit me for a topic. Senator Tom Coburn said "if you tell an 11-year-old boy about that, do you think he's going to want to go out and get a copy of Playboy? I'm pretty sure he'll lose interest. That's the last thing he wants." This is absurd on multiple levels. First of all, have you seen a copy of Playboy lately? My grandpa would barely consider that pornography. Second, was I a late bloomer? I was thirteen before I could have used such material for its intended purpose, so I have to wonder about Coburn's choice of age in his example. Third is the clear implication that being gay is "the last thing" he wants. While prejudices make being gay in America difficult, many of us have moved past seeing it as the worst thing a person could be.

Now comes my concerted effort to understand why Coburn made this statement. Scoring political points with like-minded people is fairly obvious, but that's secondary at most and pure cynicism won't lead us to any insight. Let's step back and look at the context of his remarks. I won't copy Zimmer's entire post, which you should read if you haven't, but the summit included numerous crackpot theories which even level headed conservatives reject. The underlying theme was that there are groups of people out there who are different from the audience, which is dangerous and threatens their way of life. Since the days of cavemen a core part of human teamwork has been the creation of some idea to rally around. To get people to work together toward a goal which one of them cannot achieve alone, there must be either a perceived mutual benefit or a mutual threat. This is the origin of the "us vs. them" mentality which has both benefited and plagued mankind for ages.

Mutual threats have been tangible and very real. From rival tribes to the Red Menace, convincing people to seek strength in numbers has been an easy task. It so happens that when there is a common enemy, it's much easier for a leader to get compliance from the group. As such, it serves a purpose to convince people there is always a threat. Military bogey men are hard to find and sustain, since if any one of them gets too scary we're strong enough to take them out. It's far more convenient to create an enemy which is intangible and cannot be defeated.

Numerous comments on Zimmer's post asked a variation of a reasonable question: Why do these fringe groups insist someone can't be born gay? It's because if they concede that point, they have to admit that God made gay people that way. That would mean having to accept them, since saying God messed up is not an option. They would lose a perceived enemy and with it a great rallying point. Gays are just one of many bogey men in our history. Slaves, freed slaves, illegal immigrants, atheists, religious fanatics, racists, reverse racists, the list goes on. Both sides do it because it's so effective. "See that group? They're the cause of your problems, so give me power and together we will conquer the enemy." It also provides cover for not fixing society's problems once the ambitious hate monger has attained status. "Everything would be sunshine and smiles by now if not for this group standing in the way. Just give me one more term and we'll beat them." Every form of bigotry originates from self serving nonsense meant to manipulate the masses.

If Jimmy Carter wanted to rake Joe Wilson over the coals, he had an easy and effective way to do it. Every time President Obama bows to a royal figure, shakes the wrong hand, or even admits certain dictators exist, the right claims he is making us look weak. So how strong did the U.S. look to the world when a Congressman called the President of the United States a liar during a national speech? If that level of disrespect is tolerated domestically, why should any other country take our top figure seriously? Jimmy Carter, instead of putting some thought into his response, went straight to the Democrat's rallying cry, which predictably has one side behind him and the other offended. But I'm betting most conservatives agree with my point here, meaning Wilson could have been universally rebuked without stirring the pot.

This brings me to my own challenge to 411 readers. Once you make the effort to see where someone you disagree with is coming from, ask yourself a question: Why were you so quick to attack and label this person? Are you viewing the issue objectively, or through a biased lens of your own? Conditioning people to give quick, trained responses to complex questions discourages independent thought, making us easier to influence. Stop arguing based on which historic figures you think would agree, or insisting that your personal interpretation of sacred documents is the correct one. Stick to making intellectual points that all reasonable people can accept. Yes, there are fringe lunatics who are immune to logic, but you don't care what they think. You're an intelligent adult who can state your ideas without name calling or parroting talking points. As I said in my debut, I like being shown a new way to look at things. I come away from such moments feeling a little bit wiser. Even if 90% of what a person says is gibberish, you'll still learn more from them than from the sound of your own loud, angry voice. We can only gain knowledge when we accept that we don't already have all the answers.


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Comments (67)

 
Hate to break this to you, but Republicans for years have been called, or assumed to be, in no particular order: racists, sexists, homophobes, poor hating, bigoted, mysoginist, et al. The debate has always started with a Republican first having to refute these persoanl attacks BEFORE he can even start arguing the merits of his position. So spare me this hand wringing over some congressman calling out "You Lie" to a President who actually was lying because he is trying to consolidate as much power as he can in the hands of the federal government under the guise of "health care reform".

The only thing this article is missing is an audio link to a guy playing the violin. It's 30 years too late. Conservatives are fighting back and NOW we're all so concerned about the poisionous discourse. Please.


Posted By: Da Man (Guest)  on September 23, 2009 at 11:22 AM

 
 
Didn't Joe work for Strom Thurmond at some point? If you cannot blame Joe for his associations, you cannot blame Obama for his associations.

Posted By: David (Guest)  on September 23, 2009 at 11:23 AM

 
 
"Why do these fringe groups insist someone can't be born gay? It's because if they concede that point, they have to admit that God made gay people that way"

The gay-gene theory is dead. The APA had to remove any reference to it in their last release and just 'imply' its possibility.

http://www.plumbbobblog.com/?p=4555

http://www.narth.com/docs/nothardwired.html

Are you going to call the head of the genome project a crazy Christian that wants to hurts the feeling of homosexuals?


Posted By: Mikel (Registered)  on September 23, 2009 at 11:35 AM

 
 
Da Man - Your first paragraph makes no sense. I don't see where the perception of Republicans allows a Republican to openly insult the station of Presidency in a formal forum. As Jason mentioned, we want our President respected throughout the world. Whether you agree with his tactics or not, President Obama has gone a long way towards making the United States Presidency a station for which hurling a shoe at the holder is considered inappropriate. Joe Wilson did his best to make sure that another shoe gets thrown at our leader, and that is NEVER appropriate.

Posted By: J. Alexander Mitchell (Guest)  on September 23, 2009 at 11:44 AM

 
 
You cant have civil discourse in an uncivilized world. as long as one side feels like they can shout down the other side who needs facts? Any time you watch fox news or any of these talking head programs you see the same thing over and over. One side of the conversation will say something like "fire is hot because it burns you when you touch it, and before they can spit it out you have the otherside screaming something about "fire is cold because you suck". It simply does not matter if both sides are right in their own way because the endless game of point/counterpoint sung to the tune of dueling banjo's[with both sides yelling their points at the top of their lungs while trying to shut the other person up]. I dont mean to get off on a rant here, but if the argument is the same and the rebuttal is always you disagree so you must be an idiot, then whats the point? Its the same discussion that has been going on for years, one side has the power. the other side wants the power and will fight ,scratch,and kill to get the power. then a few years later its the same on the other side with one side always feeling like the other is the enemy. I disagree with obama, but i dont think he is the enemy. I was so angry at W. towards the end of his term that i could scream. but he wasnt the enemy either. at the end of the day we are all americans[for the most part] and when we succeed we all win. when we fail....you know the rest.

Posted By: jeff albertson (Guest)  on September 23, 2009 at 11:56 AM

 
 
Good article, Jason. I've personally come to the conclusion that I was looking through biased eyes, and have been trying to correct that. I'm a pro-Obama supporter, but I've been expanding my views lately to try and see things from a clear perspective.

I've noticed a definite trend, reading many comments from the past month, where certain people are going to bash anything and everything Obama does/doesn't do, while on the other side, individuals do the same with Republicans.

I'd like to issue a challenge to both the pro-Obama and anti-Obama faithful. If you hate Obama, take some time to objectively consider what he has done right. If you are an Obama fan, sit down and look at the mistakes that he has made.

Obama's not perfect. He is also not the devil. It's time to look at things more clearly.


Posted By: Arcturo (Guest)  on September 23, 2009 at 11:57 AM

 
 
It's because nobody wants to think. Nobody wants to actually have to use their brains anymore. By believing that for instance, Gays choose to be Gay they don't have to consider anything else. By believing that Republicans are simply obstructionist, they don't have to think any further. As Yoda said "Only a Sith thinks of things in black and white" ...and the majority of people today are too stressed out, too enamored of their boogeymen, too wanting to blame someone else for problems that they will fight to the death to remain in the dark. If you make people think then they have to accept the idea that they might be wrong. And when people feel their backs are up against the wall they need to feel that they are right. Right 100% of the time otherwise they cannot function in their world anymore. This applies to all sides of every topic of argument. I say argument, not dialogue, not discussion, and certainly not discoure, political or otherwise. It is too scary for the majority of people to actually have to think of themselves... and a skill we are losing as a country faster than ever.

Posted By: The Weesel (Guest)  on September 23, 2009 at 12:07 PM

 
 
J,

Then conversely, if the tone of the disagreement with Bush had been more civil, than maybe he wouldn't had a show thrown at him? Further, if the civil discourse toward our President has been so damaging, then why are international relations so great now, as you claim?


Posted By: Da Man (Guest)  on September 23, 2009 at 12:16 PM

 
 
Once you make the effort to see where someone you disagree with is coming from, ask yourself a question: Why were you so quick to attack and label this person? Are you viewing the issue objectively, or through a biased lens of your own?

NO!!!!!!!!!!! Why, because i can, and your be fair and resonable nonsense died back in the 60's. Now, if you really want to make progress in this debate, pick a side and start screaming, blogging, picking fights, trolling, and doing whatever you can annoy the other side. That's the state of politics today, and it's not changing anytime soon.


Posted By: Photo op (Guest)  on September 23, 2009 at 12:19 PM

 
 
And to rub it in, here is an article about Dr Spitzer (who lead the APA's move to remove homosexuality from its list of defects) saying that not only is reorientation therapy legitimate, it is the right of a homosexual to seek it out.

http://www.narth.com/docs/evidencefound.html

Is he also a crazy Christian who hates homosexuals?


Posted By: Mikel (Registered)  on September 23, 2009 at 12:20 PM

 
 
Mikel what the man said was "indicating that sexual orientation is genetically influenced but not hardwired by DNA, and that whatever genes are involved represent predispositions, not predeterminations."

Notice the word Predisposition which means according to Wiki - "A genetic predisposition is a genetic effect which influences the phenotype of an organism but which can be modified by the environmental conditions"

So technically speaking they ARE born different that those who are born WITHOUT the predisposition. Technically speaking, that I don't think is refutable, and he says as much in his comments.


Posted By: saywhat (Guest)  on September 23, 2009 at 12:27 PM

 
 
"a President who actually was lying because he is trying to consolidate as much power as he can in the hands of the federal government..."

You know, the left was shaking in its boots for the same reason during the Bush/Cheney years. So get off it.


Posted By: MydniteSon (Guest)  on September 23, 2009 at 12:27 PM

 
 
saywhat (Guest) - just like they have found alcoholics and drug addicts are genetically predisposed to exhibit addictive behaviors.

What it doesn't mean is that they are born that way and there is nothing anyone can ever do for them and to try is to hurt their feelings - that would effectively destroy the work of AA and NA.

Same goes for the homosexual.


Posted By: Mikel (Guest)  on September 23, 2009 at 12:57 PM

 
 
Da Man: The tone of the discourse at that time WAS civil, from a comparative standpoint. You did not, to my memory, see the sustained vitriol that appears in the town hall meetings, and NOONE cam CLOSE to interrupting George. W. while he was speaking. Yes, he was booed by Congress... during a pause for applause. NOBODY came CLOSE to doing what Joe Wilson did.

Obama has gone out of his way to repair a lot of our standing with other countries. The current status of the US (Which, while not good, does not appear to be "universally hated") is a function of Obama trying to get us away from "universally hated", in my opinion.


Posted By: J. Alexander Mitchell (Guest)  on September 23, 2009 at 01:06 PM

 
 
No chance in hell civil discourse can happen in the current political climate, where willingness to compromise is seen as a sign of weakness.

As an independent, I can see the exact same traits on both sides. Those on the left call conservatives racists, Nazis, or ignorant while those on the right call liberals communists, weak, and naive.

Those on both sides that attempt to compromise on either side are bashed by the larger party base. The Blue Dog Democrats are referred to as traitors by liberals while the centrist Republicans are referred to as RINOs by conservatives.

Furthermore, both sides appear incapable of not dwelling on the past. Liberals claim that since they had to put up with Bush (who was democratically elected) they can do whatever they want. Conservatives claim that since they have to put up with Obama (who was also democratically elected) they can yell and scream at the top of their lungs just like the liberals did. Liberals cried about Bush and conservatives cry about Obama, two sides of the same coin.

Let's face it, ideology has become so passionate that neither side is willing to give the other ANYTHING without a lot of outside pressure. If a Democrat comes up with a universally wonderful idea, some Republicans will bash it simply because a Democrat came up with it. Likewise, if a Republican comes up with a wonderful idea, some Democrats will bash it because of a Republican came up with it.

In modern-day America, it's become about WHO is right rather than WHAT is right. Even then there are arguments, as radicals on either side won't be happy unless their ideology dominates everything, which isn't a realistic possibility.


Posted By: Robert (Guest)  on September 23, 2009 at 01:35 PM

 
 
Like the article - it's a shame that not many party leaders on either side of the aisle, as well as the on-screen media commentators that support them, ask these kinds of questions.

As to the born-gay or not-born-gay sub-thread that has popped up in this article, I have a good friend of mine that I've known since middle school (about twelve years) that recently came out of the closet, a guy who'd been involved in several heterosexual relationships since I've known him. When I asked him why he felt this way all of a sudden, he told me that he had ALWAYS felt that way, since he was old enough to have those kinds of attractions; he couldn't stay in a heterosexual relationship because of it, though he really wanted to.

That doesn't sound like "choosing" the homosexual lifestyle to me.

Does he represent every person out there that has homosexual inclinations? Perhaps, perhaps not. The exact APA quote that was the focal point of the blog referenced earlier:

"There is no consensus among scientists about the exact reasons that an individual develops a heterosexual, bisexual, gay or lesbian orientation. Although much research has examined the possible genetic, hormonal, developmental, social, and cultural influences on sexual orientation, no findings have emerged that permit scientists to conclude that sexual orientation is determined by any particular factor or factors. Many think that nature and nurture both play complex roles...."

http://www.apa.org/topics/sorientation.pdf

This all comes from one section of the APA source. It's one paragraph, and, perhaps to serve the blog's audience, one small fragment out of an entire paragraph has been omitted at the end, and I feel it's a critical one. If you go past the cut-off, it finishes: "...most people experience little or no sense of choice about their sexual orientation."

Not to harp too long, but people who pass blanket judgments about this issue - especially when some of their evidence is tailored to fit their viewpoint - get me fired up. Have you met every gay person in the world? Do you know for a fact that they 'chose' this lifestyle? Why are you so worried about a homosexual person's lifestyle?

"Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother's eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? How can you say to your brother, 'Let me take the speck out of your eye,' when all the time there is a plank in your own eye?"

Maybe that goes along with those questions posed in the article, as well.


Posted By: Scott (Guest)  on September 23, 2009 at 02:05 PM

 
 
"Obama's not perfect. He is also not the devil."

Nearly 1/3 of NJ Republicans might disagree with that.

http://washingtonindependent.com/59514/poll-one-in-three-new-jersey-co
nservatives-think-obama-might-be-the-anti-christ

Re: Mikel
http://www.narth.com/docs/evidencefound.html

Notice that he uses self-reporting surveys about *behavior.* Obviously, anyone can change their behavior, even to something that's unnatural to them.

And just because something is not wholly genetic, that does not mean that it's not congenital.


Posted By: J.D. Dunn (Registered)  on September 23, 2009 at 02:41 PM

 
 
"racists, sexists, homophobes, poor hating, bigoted, mysoginist, et al. . The debate has always started with a Republican first having to refute these persoanl attacks BEFORE he can even start arguing the merits of his position."

Most of those are aspects that the base seems to be proud of.


Posted By: J.D. Dunn (Registered)  on September 23, 2009 at 02:55 PM

 
 
Jason a good article. I do not agree with Jimmy Carter and his statement of being about race. But I believe that the actions that were preformed were very rude. Even if you do not like a person you do not have to disrespect them.
Now getting to Tom,everything that this man said out his mouth makes ones preceptions of Republicans even worst. What was the reason behind him saying this statement. I personally believe the whole conference was a waste and that he was lying when he said his friend said these things, so he would not feel dumb.
To each is own, but I am a firm believe that Republicans do NOT think before they act at all when it comes to certain things. Not saying that totally agree with everything the Democratics do. But one thing I do like is considering the country we live in Democratics believe people can make their own decisions which I appreciate. Instead of hearing or reading nonsense about of should not watch porn because that would make them gay. I believe Tom watches PORN, and has a problem and figures this is away to deal with a habit that has distroyed him.


Posted By: pmoore (Guest)  on September 23, 2009 at 03:05 PM

 
 
Da Man: Were I to step out wearing a Pittsburgh Steelers jersey, hat, shorts, watch, foam hand, and waving a terrible towel, one might just think I'm a Steelers fan. It would be a reasonable assumption, no? Republican politicians are a very homogenous group that just happens to consistently support policies that benefit those who look like them and enjoy their level of affluence, and scream that helping anyone else will mean the fall of civilization. I've stated numerous times that I don't believe all conservatives are this way. But when you keep electing those who do their best to embrace every stereotype you listed, how can you get mad at those who point it out? I've screamed for eight solid months that Obama's actions do not keep with his campaign promises, and that he's failing to represent my beliefs about the direction the country should take. Do you do that, or are those with (R) after their name always right to you?

Mikel: "Once you make the effort to see where someone you disagree with is coming from, ask yourself a question: Why were you so quick to attack and label this person?" Be honest, did you even attempt to figure out why anyone would choose to be gay if that's what you think? Did you ask yourself why you are so determined to believe it? Or did you just rush to prove what you already believe is right, missing the entire point of the article?


Posted By: Jason Douglas (Guest)  on September 23, 2009 at 03:15 PM

 
 
Mikel, I think your WAY off base with how you are reading into this. People with a predisposition or addictive personality like you say for alchohol and drugs abuse is FAR different than homosexuality.

In the former...being an addict can lead to physical ailments (liver disease), death (OD), and can lead to the death of others (drunk driving) among other things such as not being able to hold a job, etc., etc. There is a benefit to the person if you try and help them with this behavior that they would otherwise as JD put it be unnatural.

Doing the same to someone who is homosexual is a completely different scenario - they would not be harming themselves or others in any way and the only reason you would tell them it is wrong is because you as the outside observer have a hang up with it and are trying to impose you lifestyle on them.

I am not going to get into the argument about it perhaps being congenital or not because I really would have no idea about that and nothing to add that would be valid or true regarding that aspect of it.

But as I said before to say they aren't born different than those who are not predisposed is just wrong and I think missing the point.

BTW - really enjoyed the article but I don't see and more civility coming down the pike unless there is another attack (nobody wants that) and even then there would probably be finger pointing by the talking heads about who caused it.


Posted By: saywhat (Guest)  on September 23, 2009 at 03:27 PM

 
 
Mikel,

Get off what? The truth? If the left was allowed to yell about their concerns over a perceived power grab by the feds, why can't the right? Oh, right because after the left dumbed down debate in this country for 30 years NOW it's time to all get along and smile politely while big government is dropped on our heads. Dude, tell me WHY it's not a huge power grab rather than telling me to get off it.

JD, I don't know who you know in your life. There a d-bags on both sides of the political spectrum, but I reject the notion that the base embraces those characterizations of itself. Maybe what you've heard is a sarcastic rendition of the whole "well,if being against big government makes me a homophobe, then I guess that's what I am" type of defiance. But there's no way conservatives in general embrace that.

Good job proving my point though. I had to spend a paragraph trying to defend my side from baseless characterizations.


Posted By: Da Man (Guest)  on September 23, 2009 at 03:35 PM

 
 
Good read, but incivility has been a guiding principle of American politics since the establishment of our government.

I highly doubt that the Civil War was preceded by "civil discourse" on the slavery issue, nor was McCarthyism given to rational debates, nor did the populace assert its dignity in weighing the pros and cons of the suffragette movement, the civil rights push or the Vietnam War.

We have a long and proud lineage of bombast, bullshit and bullying, which has ALWAYS superseded the role of reason in our political debates. Our only sense of unity and purpose seems to come when there's some ephemeral foreign threat stirring on the horizon: clear and decisive action in the face of the British, or the Spanish, or the Mexicans, or the "Yankees/Southerners," or the phony Spanish, or the Axis, or communism, or terrorism, or faux-"socialism."

Lacking this threat, we struggle to project its import onto the "other side," regardless of who they might be or what they represent. It's a trend that knows no partisanship, or geographical boundary, or common fuckin' sense.


Posted By: Meirsch. (Guest)  on September 23, 2009 at 03:38 PM

 
 
JD,

You are wrong about behavior. Behavior is almost universally tied to genetics. A person does not have contol over behavior anymore than they do their emotions.

Moods and emotions are genetic- and behavior is the act of being in/showing those moods and emotions.

Naturally people have "personalites", Type A, B, Narcissitic, Machivalian, etc. (Excuse spelling, I being lazy).

Socrates himself asks a question: can a leopard change his spots? Of course not.

People can't change their behavior. They can act like they changed and keep up the act for long time, and that might be effective- but the person is still the same person and given the opportunity to revert back to form they will.

Look at criminal cases of "reformed" thiefs, murders, kid touchers, etc. They revert back to their normal behavior if given opportunity and means- thats the reason law enforcement keeps tabs on them after they are "reformed".

In reality- all of this fighting about politics is about different people with different values, the vocal ones acting on behavior- and the vice versa for the silent ones.

You calling "most" conservatives being proud of being called "racists, sexists, homophobes, poor hating, bigoted, mysoginist, et al." shows your behavior towards them.

And I bet you can't change, even if you tried- because the moment that myself or someone else slams liberals, you will revert to form.

And so would I.

Take a couple of classes in Anthropology, Organizational Behavior, or Criminology and you would understand that.

And, because I have to slam Obama, is the reason why I can't stand him- he has always been a crook and car salesman, and being elected President does not change that...

Get it?

Do you JD? Or do I need to break it down some more?


Posted By: Grant Muioc (Guest)  on September 23, 2009 at 03:44 PM

 
 
Gay, not gay... what does it matter? It's a genetic predisposition. I never felt as if I had any choice in my sexuality and I'm sure most straight people never did either. The majority of people are straight guys here... do you REALLY think you could bring yourselves to give another guy a blowjob without making yourselves sick?

EITHER WAY YOU ANSWER doesn't matter. Mikel's posted evidence supports that homosexuality (and thusly heterosexuality) is a genetic predisposition. So if you answer "yes" you admit that you... like dick. Startling. If you answer "no" you admit you had no choice in your own sexuality. Guess what? Neither did I. These scientists say it's a combination of genetics, environment, and other factors -- I know I didn't have any control over my own environment as a kid. Did you? Really? Did you?

Come on.


Posted By: luna (Guest)  on September 23, 2009 at 03:51 PM

 
 
Are we as civilized human beings incapable of escaping the high school mentality? The one that says, “oh, so and so did this to me when I was 12 years old and I can NEVER FORGIVE THEM FOR THAT! So I will hold a grudge against them until the day I die, even if that person is wholly capable of being a nice person and the possibillity that we can get along if we met face to face.”

The first thing YOU need to do is consider the angle YOU’RE coming from. Example:

“The debate has always started with a Republican first having to refute these persoanl attacks BEFORE he can even start arguing the merits of his position.”

Is someone saying something negative about Nixon considered a personal attack against YOU? Are you related to him? Or Regan? Bush 41 or 43? Or Lincoln, for that matter? What are you first: A “Republican”, or an American? The answer to that question may be the crux of your mindset.

“Hate to break this to you, but Republicans for years have been called, or assumed to be, in no particular order: racists, sexists, homophobes, poor hating, bigoted, mysoginist, et al.”

So have “Democrats”. Ever heard of the “Southern Strategy”? The “Dixiecrats”? In fact, the ones being called those things have been aligned (justly AND unjustly) with people from either political side…From people who have feel that their mindset is wrong. That has nothing to do with politics – that has everything to do with civil rights. I don’t think people forget that a “Republican” abolished slavery. (Even though a “Democrat” signed the civil rights act.) Again, are you an American or a “Republican”? Have YOU been called racist, sexist, homophobic, poor hating, bigoted, mysoginst, et al personally – to your face or over the phone? By whom? When you look back at the scenario (if you were), who said it? What context was it under? Was it because you are a “Republican”, or was it more directed towards any type of action or words you surrounded yourself under that could have been interpreted (or misinterpreted) as any of these things? I’m under the impression that you don’t appreciate the whole “guilt by association” thing, right? That’s what this is about? Were you upset when “Republicans” used this strategy against the President last year in bringing up Wright, Saul Alinksy, Muslims, etc?


Posted By: The 8th Samurai (Registered)  on September 23, 2009 at 04:27 PM

 
 
“So spare me this hand wringing over some congressman calling out "You Lie" to a President who actually was lying because he is trying to consolidate as much power as he can…”

I guess I’m trying to figure out a few things from this statement:

1) I would like to know who is still wringing their hands over Joe Wilson. I didn’t know people still did that.

2) The *absolute* statement of “lying” is misleading, since just as easily as you can say someone is doing so, someone can refute your claim by simply saying, “no he’s not”. Can you prove that Obama’s “lie” is a cover-up of a consolidation of power under the hands of the federal government? Do you have this proof in the form of a transcript, microfilm, audio or videotape? I mean, other than the fact that as a citizen with no authority – it would be terribly illegal to spy on the federal government, if you have this information, I would think it would be best to forward to the proper authorities so they can properly remove Obama from the Presidency. I mean, that’s what you’re saying, right? You’re 100% certain of this conspiracy? I think you need to tell someone and tell them NOW. It can’t be that difficult with the technology we have (if we can catch the President calling someone a “jackass” –ahem- “off the record”, we should be able to find him saying ANYTHING.) If you don’t have cold hard evidence, a transcript, audio or video of the parties you need to incriminate doing the things you claim to incriminate them, then…I dunno…Is it safe to say that you have just a theory, or an opinion, and you can’t really make the true claim that…Anybody is lying about anything. Of course, I suppose you may want to keep this vital information to yourself because you’re afraid that it will get covered up and that would show that the ENTIRE system is corrupt, “Democrat” and “Republican”…Because the total consolidation of power through the federal government probably wouldn’t fly without 1) a coup, which is near impossible in this day and age or 2) a vote of your house and senate representatives – which consists of again…BOTH “Republican” and “Democrat”. Heads can explode at your leisure.

Of course, we can’t ignore the hilarious fact that the person you’re accusing of lying to consolidate political power is someone who doesn’t share the same political ideology as you, so you’re automatically inclined – and in your mind, probably justified – in saying whatever you can to show that you’re on the side of “the good guys”; but then again, because of your past statements and the context of your statements about the wrongs being heaped upon “Republicans”, you’ve lumped yourself with a SIDE – and labled yourself. Are you American, or a “Republican”?


Posted By: The 8th Samurai (Registered)  on September 23, 2009 at 04:27 PM

 
 
“…lying because he is trying to consolidate as much power as he can…” in the hands of the federal government under the guise of "health care reform".”

And really - why use, of all things…Health care to consolidate power? Wouldn’t it be easier to do what all other dictators do – which is lump particular scapegoats as enemies to justify wartime actions? I mean, we have Iran, North Korea, Afghanistan, Pakistan, Cuba, China…Hell, use Canada to convince the public that President Obama must become EMPEROR OBAMA. I would consider using health care to accomplish such a feat is akin to a political blunder, or at the very least – idiotic in nature. Unless you believe Obama is a super-secret Muslim cell sent by the Illuminati and hand-picked by the Masons while in Indonesia at six years old to bring about total chaos to America while revealing himself to be the son of Satan and bring about seven years of darkness to the world before the Rapture and return of Jesus Christ, all to gain revenge against the anglosaxon European male for the slavery of Africans 300 years ago…

I don’t think you’re crazy. I mean, if you believed even 5% of what I just spewed, don’t you think Obama would have consolidated his power the day he was sworn in office and that would be the end of that? I believe that’s the *smart* thing to do and he can’t be that stupid, since he’s been able to play both puppet and puppetmaster so perfectly and has the Illuminati, the Masons, his father - the Dark Lord of Hell (and Rock) and 300 years worth of the unfulfilled evil voodoo of dead evil zombie slaves who did evil things like try to have a sense of dignity while being whipped at his disposal…

…Forgive me, I’ve uncharacteristically lumped you with the crazies that spit this out all the time. Of course, the majority of those have stated that they come from the more “Conservative” mold of thinking, which you have already labelled yourself as…That’s guilt by association and you should not be subject to that. I hope you understand what some one the other “side” felt when they were considered “unamerican” for disagreeing with Bush and the whole “WMD/Iraq” thing, even if they didn’t think that 9/11 was an “inside job”.


Posted By: The 8th Samurai (Registered)  on September 23, 2009 at 04:27 PM

 
 
“It's 30 years too late.”

Have you ever thought about telling someone or have actually told someone to get over slavery? Or over terrible things that happened to African-Americans during the Civil Rights movement? I mean, that was a little over 30 years ago as well (not slavery – I know slavery was abolished LONG before either one of us were born.) Are you therefore justifying their anger over the terrible…more terrible things said and DONE to them than being called little names that most civilized human beings can shrug off because it isn’t used under the pretension of negative historical context? I mean, they can say “it’s 30 years too late and decide to just hate you because of the color of your skin, right? Of course, you may now insinuate that I’m calling you racist…No, I don’t know you – but I will call out “do as I say and not as I do” when I see it. And really, in the context and history of this country (from both sides of the fence) would you be rather called racist, homophobic or a commie-jew hating-socialist marxist heathen fag-loving liberal unamerican n*gger(lover)? I’d probably be okay with being called a racist, actually. That word in its current historical context isn’t as piercing.

(Of course, I haven’t heard the above words in the exact combination used, but I’ve heard them individually, and with some combinations. You’d be surprised to find what Rural Ohio thinks of certain people – and how STRONGLY they think about them. Of course, they are “Republican” AND “Democrat”. Sheesh.)


Posted By: The 8th Samurai (Registered)  on September 23, 2009 at 04:28 PM

 
 
“Conservatives are fighting back and NOW we're all so concerned about the poisionous discourse.”

Fighting back against what? Who are you fighting? Are you throwing fists? Are you in a war zone? Have we fallen into civil war and I’m unaware of it? I just took a very peaceful drive into work…I didn’t see anyone fighting me – or finding the need to fight back against someoene because I saw a “McCain/Palin” bumper sticker on the pack of their car. So…Unless you’re being personally attacked, I don’t understand this little concern of yours. Again, you’ve willfully made a conscious effort to label yourself with a group. Are you “Conservative” or American – or are you of the mindset that “Conservatives ARE American”, which can easily be debunked by the showing of any birth certificate of any citizen that recently voted Democrat in the past election. Unless you think all that voted Democrat were mysteriously born in Kenya, too (and I don’t think you think that.)

“Please.”

Indeed. When we ALL realize that the country, and not party affiliation – is the most important thing, then maybe the name-calling, the finger-pointing, the attacks of character based on past actions, decisions, rulings and words from an entire generation ago on others who had nothing to do with anything 20, 30, 40 – 100 years previous, the “rah rah rah I’m elephant/donkey – my side is great, your side SUCKS” and “win-at-all-costs-just-to-see-the-other-side-lose-and-if-we-don’t-we’l
l-bitch-about-it-every-chance-we-get-until-the-new-election-cycle-star
ts-again-so-we-can-win-at-all-costs-just-to-see-the-other-side-lose…” will end.

But I’m sure you’re capable of walking in someone else’s shoes and showing empathy. I mean, that’s what you’re asking for, right? To understand where YOU’RE coming from? Or is empathy for the other “side” already dead and you’re ready to just fight an enemy that doesn’t exist?

As long as you breathe, you can live, act and vote independent.


Posted By: The 8th Samurai (Registered)  on September 23, 2009 at 04:28 PM

 
 
Instead of asking how a person knows they're gay, why not instead ask how a person knows they're straight? If a gay man can emerge from straight parents, and a straight man can emerge from gay parents, I don't believe sexuality is a learned behavior. How do we decide who we want to sleep with?

Posted By: Guest#7618 (Guest)  on September 23, 2009 at 04:56 PM

 
 
Robert: I believe the very existence of party bases is part of the problem. The roughly 40% on each side of last year's election who were decided effectively had no voice, while the remaining 20% were catered to. It shouldn't work that way. It's when Washington can count on voter support regardless of its actions that we lose control of our country. This is why I appeal to people to stop identifying themselves with entire parties or even individual candidates, and instead evaluate ideas. When Bush pitched a prescription drug benefit for Medicare, where were the people who now scream about costs? It was their guy's idea, so it was great. Obama supports many of Bush's policies, which make perfect sense to lefties now that it's Obama. Those of us who see this have a responsibility to keep pointing it out, whether or not the masses will listen.

Posted By: Jason Douglas (Registered)  on September 23, 2009 at 05:05 PM

 
 
(I am truly standing on my chair in my office, clapping and yelling "bravo, bravo", after ready all of the post(s) that The 8th Samurai made.

The 8th Samurai, I am begging you.. PLEASE submit to write an article about current events. I place you, along with J. Alexander, and Ashish, as one of the best writers giving their opinions here. Again, thank you very, very much.


Posted By: Independent4Obama (Guest)  on September 23, 2009 at 05:06 PM

 
 
Didn't Aaron Burr shoot Alexander Hamilton over politics? At least nobody has been beaten to within an inch of their life in the chamber like that poor Charles Sumner dude. We could all be more civil I guess.

Posted By: AdmChesterMynutz (Guest)  on September 23, 2009 at 05:11 PM

 
 
Wow, the 8th Samurai might be the most pretentious, letter of the law commenter I've ever seen.

“Conservatives are fighting back and NOW we're all so concerned about the poisionous discourse.”

Fighting back against what? Who are you fighting? Are you throwing fists? Are you in a war zone?"

Really? No one is allowed to speak figuratively? Or when you implied that the commenter had chosen a side, did you see him do it? Did you hear him say it?

I'm all for raising good points, but wasting all that space for petty semantic and pedantic battles is ludicrous.


Posted By: Guest#3532 (Guest)  on September 23, 2009 at 05:18 PM

 
 
Dude 8th Samurai. Pace yourself brother.

Posted By: stronelis (Guest)  on September 23, 2009 at 05:21 PM

 
 
8th samurai,

Was I just filibustered? Are you a senator? Phew, man, I don't have time right now to read all you've written but I do appreciate you engaging me on my comments. Good stuff.


Posted By: Da Man (Guest)  on September 23, 2009 at 05:54 PM

 
 
Thanks guest #3532. Not for agreeing or disagreeing but raising that point. But, then again, he is a samurai so I would expect him to spend an inordinate amount of time on the fighting aspect of my comments.

Still love ya samurai. Doing battle on these boards is fun.


Posted By: Da Man (Guest)  on September 23, 2009 at 05:57 PM

 
 
good article, while i don't completely agree with everything you say in it, it was very well written...and anything that gets people talking rationally without name-calling on the forum, i think, is a good thing. good job.

Posted By: hartfan (Guest)  on September 23, 2009 at 06:12 PM

 
 
Jason,

By saying that Republicans only help those who look like them is another example of identifying people by their skin color and laying the groundwork that Republicans are racist somehow. Sure, you didn't say the word racist but it's implied from your sentence.

What about all the great black Republicans like JC Watts, Alan Keyes, Clarence Thomas, Condoleeza Rice, Thomas Sowell, Shelby Steele, etc.? Oh that's right, they are marginalized as uncle toms and betrayers of their race because they believe in individual rights rather than group rights. Take a look at the Clarence Thomas Supreme Court confirmation hearings and tell me Democrats were engaging in civil discourse. You won't be able to do so. But Dems were not labled as racists, because Clarence Thomas was a race traitor for daring to believe in the founding principles. So he was allowed to be abused without race playing a part. Are you willing to say that the Democrats abuse of a black Supreme Court nominee didn't embolden the bigots perpetuating apartheid in South Africa during that time?

The conservative stance is one grounded on preserving the rights of the individual, not dictating "fair" outcomes. When you try to do that, nobody wins except the people who get to define what "fair" is (i.e. politicians and their cronies).


Posted By: Da Man (Guest)  on September 23, 2009 at 06:21 PM

 
 
Jason, as much as I agree with your comments about the elimination of political power-bases, I don't believe the American public will EVER reach a point where we're emotionally, morally or spiritually ready for it.

We live to polarize, and without simple, iconic symbols to fall into lockstep behind, we're practically lost. The reason why Christianity is synonymous with the "corn-fried Red State rube" stereotype isn't due to something inherent in Christ's teachings; it's due to a fundamental, atavistic need to position religious belief AGAINST something, in order to feel like you're engaged by it.

In this case, that can be anything: Obama the Muslim, Communist Russia, "Gay Liberal Hollywood," urban intellectuals, godless minorities, and who knows WHAT the fuck else.


Posted By: Meirsch (Guest)  on September 23, 2009 at 07:09 PM

 
 
Good article, Jason. I've personally come to the conclusion that I was looking through biased eyes, and have been trying to correct that. I'm a pro-Obama supporter, but I've been expanding my views lately to try and see things from a clear perspective.

I've noticed a definite trend, reading many comments from the past month, where certain people are going to bash anything and everything Obama does/doesn't do, while on the other side, individuals do the same with Republicans.

I'd like to issue a challenge to both the pro-Obama and anti-Obama faithful. If you hate Obama, take some time to objectively consider what he has done right. If you are an Obama fan, sit down and look at the mistakes that he has made.

Obama's not perfect. He is also not the devil. It's time to look at things more clearly.

Posted By: Arcturo (Guest) on September 23, 2009 at 11:57 AM

well said sir well said


Posted By: da juice (Guest)  on September 23, 2009 at 09:09 PM

 
 
"because they believe in individual rights rather than group rights"

They believe in individual rights like the women's right to choose, the right to use marijuana medicinally/recreationally, the right to marry if you're not straight, the right to health care for every individual, the right NOT to believe in god? And last I checked, companies and religions are GROUPS not individuals...


Posted By: Joe Kerr (Guest)  on September 23, 2009 at 09:57 PM

 
 
"Why were you so quick to attack and label this person?"

Trying to reach an understanding with people who seek nothing else but to place you under their heel is pointless.


Posted By: Q:? (Guest)  on September 23, 2009 at 10:23 PM

 
 
Before all this eroding of political discourse ... we forget all there was ... was apathy, and government spent spent spent.

Posted By: hmmm (Guest)  on September 24, 2009 at 01:25 AM

 
 
Da Man:

I said:

"But when you keep electing those who do their best to embrace every stereotype you listed, how can you get mad at those who point it out?"

Clarence Thomas, Condoleeza Rice, Thomas Sowell, and Shelby Steele were not elected, so they don't refute my claim at all. Alan Keyes? From Wikipedia:

"On August 8, 2004 – with 86 days to go before the general election – the Illinois Republican Party drafted Alan Keyes to run against Democratic Illinois Senate member and future President of The United States Barack Obama for the U.S. Senate, after the Republican nominee, Jack Ryan, withdrew due to a sex scandal." Keyes had never lived in Illinois. Shall I guess why they chose him to run against Obama? No, because piling on factual evidence is far more effective.

Regarding JC Watts, from Wikipedia:

"Watts was elected House Republican Conference Chair in 1998, replacing John Boehner, after a vote of 121–93. Watts assumed the position in 1999 and was the first black Republican elected to a leadership post."

It also states:

"Republicans argued Watts complained about the party message and the cancellation of an artillery system in his district by the Bush administration, which Watts denied."

He "retired" in 2003, at the ripe old age of 45, so even he isn't a current example. The fact that the Republican party saw its first black member in a leadership post just shy of the millenium doesn't exactly support you here either.

The Republican party currently has 40 seats in the Senate and 177 in the House. That's 217 total elected officials. So how many are black? ZERO. But you already knew that, didn't you? You must have since Watts was the most recent one.

Thanks for getting me to research this deeper. Rather than trust what my eyes saw during Obama's health care speech, I now have concrete proof that on the right side of the aisle, Congress is indeed a club for rich, old white people. What gets me is that you know this irrefutable fact but simply deny it because it's unflattering. If your argument was that this club still happens to support policies you agree with, I could respect that. But outright denial of fact has no place in civil discourse.

There can only be two reasons that 0/217 GOP Congressmen are black. One is that black people just don't identify themselves as Republicans, but your examples and others show that's not true. The other is that Republicans don't elect black people to national office, a theory supported by a mountain of factual evidence. I don't imply that Republicans are racists. The facts scream it.

Yes, I'm willing to say treating Clarence Thomas like a prince wouldn't have affected apartheid. Only Americans believe they're the world's moral compass.


Posted By: Jason Douglas (Guest)  on September 24, 2009 at 11:11 AM

 
 
Guest 3532: It's funny how a word like "pretentious" can be used as some sort of a personal attack. What if, like me, someone sees that word as a compliment? For decades, western civilization has embraced and encouraged a mainstream "dumbing down" of people. So, I would rather be called "pretentious" and have the stigma of being overanalytical, overly thoughtful and being "letter of the law" specific than be someone who just acts and reacts irrationally and based on emotion and post the first thing in my head.

I mean, wouldn't it be nice if we had more "pretentious" and "letter of the law" people in politics? People who actually READ EVERY WORD of a bill they're handed. I'd like it.

People can speak figuratively, but under the correct context, figurative speech shouldn't be necessary. Thing is, there might not be an issue with what I say but in *how* I say it. My issue with Da Man was in the specific words he said.

When you have a point-by-point rebuttal of the words I SAID, then you may be so inclined to tackle my *snicker* pretentiousness.

I was thinking this discussion was about trying to understand people, and it seems as if the intent of the article flew over your head, since you were so compelled to discuss a poster, and not the words of the poster. I triggered a nerve. Good. I hope I trigger more nerves in the future. Maybe then we can figure out ways to converse among each other without resorting to name-calling and assumptions of character.

Da Man, I love you too. I've been told by many that I'm a good drinking buddy. See, 3532? It is possible to be CIVIL with people, even if you don't agree with them and realize at the end of the day they're just another fellow human being. That is a Samurai code, y'know (well, at least mine.)


Posted By: The 8th Samurai (Registered)  on September 24, 2009 at 12:14 PM

 
 
Given that the Republicans owned Congress for a decade (until '06), they've had the power to gerrymander Congressional districts to allow their candidates to be more effective. This could be one of the reasons why you don't see many (if any) black Republicans. I'm not saying the Democrats don't do the same thing, because they do, but it's a reason why you don't see a heavy minority presence for Republicans. They're able to spread out minority votes over a number of districts instead of in one, which might ensure the failure of a minority Republican. Conversely, Dems are also responsible of doing the opposite.

Posted By: Guest#7150 (Guest)  on September 24, 2009 at 01:33 PM

 
 
No, you're more of a racist (relatively speaking) for being so obsessed with the fact that all of the GOP representatives are white. Who cares? Is ideology dictated by race? Were any of those white Republicans members of the KKK like Robert Byrd was? What specific Republican policy is racist? What percentage of black representatives do Republicans need to have for them to not be considered racist by you? Is being elected in a Democratically gerrymandered district really a sign of progress? Have you ever read Thomas Sowell or Shelby Steele?

When black people stop being told they are victims by people like you then maybe more of them will become conservatives. Until then, they will be continually misled and used by statists as the standardized victim to make the case for even more government intervention in their lives, government intervention that 40 years later has left them worse off then they would have been if the Great Society and LBJ had never laid hands on them in the first place.


Posted By: Da Man (Guest)  on September 24, 2009 at 02:06 PM

 
 
The 8th Samurai, I am begging you.. PLEASE submit to write an article about current events. I place you, along with J. Alexander, and Ashish, as one of the best writers giving their opinions here. Again, thank you very, very much.

Posted By: Independent4Obama

I second that. There's a style to Samurai's writing that appeals to logic. No ranting, just a clear explanation of where he's coming from and how he got there. I would be a regular reader for sure.


Posted By: Jason Douglas (Registered)  on September 24, 2009 at 02:10 PM

 
 
@Grant - I'm not sure we have the same definition of behavior.

Also, I didn't say the majority. I said "the base," meaning the most reliable, least-flexible segment of the party.

@Grant & Da Man - They may not enjoy those words to describe themselves, but they have historically embraced those philosophies.


Posted By: J.D. Dunn (Registered)  on September 24, 2009 at 02:29 PM

 
 
8th Samurai:

While you may choose to believe so, the point of this topic was not, in fact, lost upon me. However, I decided to instead comment upon the comments I was seeing, namely your running in circles arguments about whether or not someone was ACTUALLY "fighting" for something with physical actions.

I feel that your technique is another reason that Civil Discourse has eroded. Sure, you're polite, you don't rant, etc. etc. But at the same time, you pick at the most unimportant aspect of someone's argument (is it REALLY important if someone is in a physical fight, or if they are merely alluding to the struggle they are in for something?), which is something we see quite frequently. It's the same as commenters who cry foul on someone's argument because of a typo or grammatical error. If you KNOW what the person's intent is, then why not just move forward with the argument, instead of stagnating with irrelevant points.

As to being proud of your "pretentiousness," well congratulations. I wish I could be proud of claiming to have, or demanding a position of distinction or merit, especially when unjustified.


Posted By: Guest 3532 (Guest)  on September 24, 2009 at 03:51 PM

 
 
3532,

Sam's original critique was nearly 1,800 words. Yet your focus was on the fighting portion of roughly 100 words. Your response to his response attempts to demean him for picking out unimportant aspects of someone's argument.

Care to address any of the remaining 1,700 words of the original rant?


Posted By: you're doing it wrong (Guest)  on September 24, 2009 at 04:25 PM

 
 
Da Man:

Since you've now resorted to name calling, and abandoned a point you felt was worth defending until you were proven wrong, you have no power of persuasion. See how that works? You were the first to post a comment and cried for your party being picked on.

"Hate to break this to you, but Republicans for years have been called, or assumed to be, in no particular order: racists, sexists, homophobes, poor hating, bigoted, mysoginist, et al."

YOU griped about being called racist without anyone on this post even implying it, because YOU are obsessed with that subject. Since you put the idea of unjust criticism out there, I tested your theory. It turns out that black people have ZERO representation in your party. But rather than ask your party why that is, you went straight to your talking points. Then you just started flailing away randomly. This is what's wrong with politics today. You would rather scream than admit you're wrong and grow from it.


Posted By: Jason Douglas (Registered)  on September 24, 2009 at 04:42 PM

 
 
It is difficult to have a civil discourse these days because we actively set that up to fail. Media feeds on conflict. People agreeing does not make good copy. People feed on drama. We crave it. Life is often times boring and we seek out diversion. So media seeks to give us what we want: Conflict. Politians want to be seen and heard. If they want to be in the media, they need to be inflammatory. Then people see them, and agree or disagree. The media gets ratings, and said official is re-elected.

We have a society that is based on conflict. We have a government that bases elections on what people were against, rather than what they accomplished.

Until we as a people decide that we won't support that kind of behavior, we are stuck with it. People have the power to turn off CNN, to turn off Fox, but we never do, because we have been sold on the idea that what politics really is is a sports team. It's so fun to come onto these boards and get into arguments about whether you are right or not. So fun to debate teams. How many times are we ever discussing policy here? Very rarely. But we are discussing who wrong who in the political system first.

The elected leaders are just doing what works, and currently that means fighting. We would all be better off if we would demand to know what our representatives did, rather than what they stopped other people from doing.


Posted By: xjuggernaughtx (Guest)  on September 24, 2009 at 04:48 PM

 
 
You're doing it wrong-

I didn't know I had to respond to him talking about himself. Also, I was merely focusing on that one part because he had chosen to ignore it in my first post, instead focusing on how proud he is to be pretentious.

Big ups for counting the words, too. That's impressive!


Posted By: Guest 3532 (Guest)  on September 24, 2009 at 06:03 PM

 
 
All these comments, and still nobody has pointed out that Tom Coburn didn't actually say this, his aide did. Oh - wait - I did under another name, but you refuse to post it.

Posted By: interesting (Guest)  on September 24, 2009 at 07:30 PM

 
 
All these comments, and still nobody has pointed out that Tom Coburn didn't actually say this, his aide did. Oh - wait - I did under another name, but you refuse to post it.

Posted By: interesting

Yeah, I blundered there. I don't really know much about Tom Coburn, and when I went back to Zimmer's post to get the name I took the wrong one. It was Michael Schwartz who said it. The teaser for the article was even "GOP staffer warns of the risks of pornography at this weekend’s Values Voter Summit." D'oh! Fortunately my article was about the message and not skewering the messenger. Of course it seems unlikely that Coburn's chief of staff gave a prepared speech that Coburn himself would disagree with, but that's unconfirmed.


Posted By: Jason Douglas (Guest)  on September 25, 2009 at 09:59 AM

 
 
Jason Douglas (ShockMaster):

Very good post, man. I enjoyed reading the post and also your comments, and reply to other readers on the site. I also appreciate your candor and willing NOT to get into an argument of words, but instead, to back it up with facts and logic without being insulting. Big ups to you, man. Looking forward to your 4th (or 5th?) article.


Posted By: Independent4Obama (Guest)  on September 25, 2009 at 11:37 AM

 
 
Wow Jason. Declaring yourself the winner of an argument defending identity on a primarily pro-Marxist website. You must be proud of yourself. Pretty lame, dude.

Again,why do Republicans or Democrats need to represent the black constituency per se? What is the platform of the black agenda? Aren't we all Americans? The argument is those for big gpovernment vs. those for smaller government,not black vs. white, but that's how you frame it by saying Republicans don't represent one black voter. You are correct,they don't. They represent those who wish to see government have less of an influence over their lives than it already has. It has nothing to do with skin color. They choose not to herd black people into the "victim" category and say big government will make it all better, when we've seen for the last 40 years that it has not.


Posted By: Da Man (Guest)  on September 25, 2009 at 01:28 PM

 
 
"They choose not to herd black people into the "victim" category and say big government will make it all better, when we've seen for the last 40 years that it has not."

By what metric?


Posted By: J.D. Dunn (Registered)  on September 25, 2009 at 02:36 PM

 
 
Da Man:

I still have yet to use the word victim. You keep calling that notion up in your own mind. And if you re-read my last comment, I never used the word "win" or any variation of "I'm right" either. As stated, you advanced a theory, which I debunked with ten minutes of fact checking based on your own examples. That's how I approach a subject. I look at facts, then form an opinion. When you jump the gun with a preconceived idea and work backwards to support it, you never see anything that conflicts with your initial belief. It's impossible to learn anything new that way.

As for the "black agenda", I just consider it the human agenda. Those born into privilege don't have to work nearly as hard as those born into poverty to attain the same life. As I said in a previous article, while ANYONE can succeed, it's economically impossible for EVERYONE to succeed, making the "pull yourself up by the bootstraps" argument a largely false one. There's only so much prosperity to go around, and it shouldn't disproportionately go to the descendants of those already on top.

Over the course of three articles, I have consistently stated that the working poor should benefit from their contributions to society, and get a realistic chance for advancement. In response you said "When black people stop being told they are victims by people like you..." Think about that. When I say "poor", you think "black". Somewhere in your mind the two are equated. A lot of people equate the two, because there's great overlap.

I had a lengthy exchange with J. Alexander Mitchell a while back where I trumpeted helping the poor, which incidentally would disproportionately help African Americans, rather than making it directly about race. To me it's about our best and brightest maximizing their potential for society's benefit. They can't do that on $7 an hour with no benefits.

We have seen the Republican way and who ends up on top. Would you trust George W. Bush or Sarah Palin to prepare your income tax returns? Bush tried to put Harriet Miers on the Supreme Court with no experience as a judge, and saw no problem with it. Loyalty to him and the system trumped competence in his eyes. That was fine with Republicans, who later screamed "no executive experience" about Obama. It's all symptomatic of an establishment which has been locked in place for generations. Bush made government bigger, as did Reagan, but big government only seems to be frowned on when it helps the many a little rather than the few a lot.

I want the establishment to be torn down, brick by brick. Not because of liberal guilt or my own circumstances, but because it's detrimental to the nation as a whole.


Posted By: Jason Douglas (Guest)  on September 25, 2009 at 03:58 PM

 
 
*newsflash*

Politicians exploit EVERYONE.

Don't believe me? Look at any poll on any channel and see how they split the poll into other little polls based on age, gender, region, religion, ect, and then see how the politicians react to it.

If there was an inkling that Mitt Romney could gain some in-roads with African-Americans, you don't think he wouldn't be in South Detroit and makes sure that African-American's are clearly in the background for the cameras cheering wildly?

You think if Jesse Jackson Jr ran for the senate and polls showed that white women wanted to "know more" about him, that he wouldn't suddenly be talking about breast cancer and OBGYN's who want to "share their love" with female patients?

Once again, ALL politicians are GUILTY. If you think ANY that has attained some form of higher office in the past 50 years are innocent, unblemished or are actually, passionately concerned about YOUR personal welfare in some way are, frankly...Fucking naive.

If you have to focus on race as an issue for any issue, that says more about you and your issues. Cut and dry, that is it.


Posted By: The 8th Samurai (Registered)  on September 25, 2009 at 09:12 PM

 
 
"Wow Jason. Declaring yourself the winner of an argument defending identity on a primarily pro-Marxist website. You must be proud of yourself. Pretty lame, dude."

Shit, he's on to the Internet's secret socialist agenda. Quick, comrades, we must blend in!

Dirty commies! No taxes ever for anything under any circumstances no matter what! Ronald Reagan! The free market! Liberal hypocrisy! Gooble Gobble! We don't accept you! Not one of us! Not one of us!


Posted By: Guest#9247 (Guest)  on September 26, 2009 at 03:42 AM

 
 
Wow, for a guy named Shockmaster, Jason Douglas is doing pretty well in the politics section. I like how you patiently tried to deal with Da Man, using facts and logic without losing your temper. Would a conservative do the same for a liberal? From what I've seen on these boards, I think not.

Posted By: Finn (Guest)  on September 26, 2009 at 09:31 PM

 
 
The 8th Samurai:

Mitt Romney did ask "Who let the dogs out?" so he has made an effort to reach out to African Americans, LOL.

To everyone else:

Thanks for the comments, the overwhelming majority of which have been thoughtful, even ones where I disagreed. I wasn't sure how an unemotional, non-provocative column would work out, and it does me good to know there's a place for meaningful debate. It has actually been more cathartic than the sometimes explosive rants I've made in comments past.


Posted By: Jason Douglas (Registered)  on September 27, 2009 at 05:48 PM

 
 
HAHAHA! Oh man, I completely forgot about that "Who let the dogs out" charade! Or maybe blocked it out from my subconsciousness.

Good times, Mitt. Good times. Hope to see him in 2012.


Posted By: The 8th Samurai (Registered)  on September 27, 2009 at 06:48 PM

 
STAY CURRENT




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