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 411mania » Politics » Blog Entry
WWSD - What Would Schlafly Do?
Posted by J.D. Dunn on 10.11.2009



"For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and [from] the things which are written in this book.(Revelations 22:19)

That seems fairly straightforward, especially for the Bible.

Since it's Sunday, I thought it would be a good idea to look at the big religious issue burning up the blogosphere. Be prepared for some sacriliciousness.

For those of you who love Jesus but don't care for those pesky notions of charity, kindness and good will toward men, does Andy Schlafly have a proposal for you. Schlafly, if you didn't know, is the son of Phyllis Schlafly, mother of the Christian Conservative movement and noted anti-feminist. Andrew Schlafly founded Conservapedia, the right's answer to Wikipedia, which Schlafly thought was too liberally biased – perhaps because it's based on the marketplace of ideas… Wait for it. Wait for iiiiiiiiiit.

Schlafly's latest project is called "The Conservative Bible Project" which seeks to edit the Bible to give it a more conservative bent, the way God intended. The translations of the Bible that have existed for nearly 2000 years are too "touchy-feely" for Schlafly, which makes it all the more odd that he decided to translate the New Testament first because the Old Testament God seems far more up Schlafly's alley.

To aid his supporters in this little endeavor, Schlafly has proposed 10 Commandments uh, "guidelines" to keepin' it real:

1. Framework against Liberal Bias: Because as Jesus was being staked to the cross, we all know his final thoughts were, "A 39-percent upper marginal tax-rate instead of 36?!!! For My sake, that's socialism!" And though you'd think Jesus, of all people, would be in favor of giving people - especially pregnant women - access to healthcare, apparently he's not.

2. Not Emasculated: Schlafly and his followers are all about the penis, I guess, except in the crucial part of Genesis where, as conservatives so cleverly point out, it does not say "Adam and Steve." That. Is. Hilarious. By the way, it's apparent from his writings (and those of his mom) that Schlafly has some issues with women, mostly stemming from the teachings of Saint Paul. Did you know that women are to submit to their husbands as their church submits to Christ? I wouldn't be surprised if Andy Schlafly also ran a hotel on a deserted stretch of highway in Southern California. You know, just him and his invalid mother upstairs… lot of blondes disappearing near the swamp.

3. Not Dumbed Down: I'm tempted to ask how that doesn't make it "less conservative," but I'll fight my baser instincts and point out that Schlafly's complaint about the New International Bible being written at a 7th-grade level would be well-founded if people were also allowed to question why all the animals in the world lived within walking distance of Moses' house.

4. Utilize Powerful Conservative Terms: I hardly think that "fag" and "wetback" are appropriate substitutions. A cursory evaluation of Schlafly's "list of conservative terms" shows that he's adopted quite a few words for his movement that are in everyday use. A sane person probably wouldn't even consider them conservative in nature. "Bedrock," for example, is a conservative term that means "strong values" and is also the place where Schlafly thinks the real Fred Flintstone lived. Liberals, on the other hand, use words like "comrade," "fellow" and "worker," except for the Blue Dogs who only know words like "ball" and "good,"… and "rape."

5. Combat Harmful Addiction: I'll include Schlafly's own words here. "[C]ombating addiction by using modern terms for it, such as "gamble" rather than "cast lots"; using modern political terms, such as "register" rather than "enroll" for the census." How does using "register" rather than "enroll" for the census combat harmful addiction? And doesn't this conflict with Schlafly's Seventh Guideline (see below). What about derivatives trading? And if one really wanted to stress the importance of combating harmful addictions, wouldn't the reasonable course of action be to create disincentives (like surtaxes) for addictive substances like nicotine or alcohol? Doesn't that conflict with the Seventh Guideline as well?

6. Accept the Logic of Hell: Schlafly does not want people to downplay the "very real" existence of hell or the devil. I'm not so sure about using logic here, though. Sometimes a good "because I said so" works best. Using logic invites the "Problem of Hell" which states that a just God would not A) punish people for the sins of another (we are damned because of Adam's sin, according to evangelicals), B) punish people for an eternity when they could not possibly commit sins worthy of infinite punishment in a finite lifetime. So, by logic, either A) God is unjust, B) Hell is not eternal, or C) God, Hell or both don't even exist. Ample Biblical evidence exists for any of the three. Just ask Er. Of course, we know the devil exists, WE JUST CAN'T FIND HIS DAMNED BIRTH CERTIFICATE! ::storms off::

7. Express Free Market Parables; Wouldn't this mean that we have to get rid of the First Commandment? "Thou Shalt Have No Other Gods Before Me." That sounds like something that would come out of a Command Economy, not a free-market system. What if another god makes me a better offer? Shouldn't competition determine who the best god really is? It sounds suspiciously like single-payer to me. And what of tithing? Isn't that just collecting taxes for God? Granted, God is a flat-taxer, but still, they're taxes. Don't make me throw tea into the Dead Sea to protest this! Oh, and ancient Israel was an agrarian community with heavy emphasis on the "commune," so if you're looking for a pro-free-market book, this probably isn't it. Try the Torah.

8. Exclude Later-Inserted Liberal Passages: Schlafly objects to the story of Jesus protecting the adultress by telling his followers, "He who is without sin, cast the first stone," (John 8:7). Schlafly thinks the moral of the story is too liberal and objects because he's found scholars who think the story was inserted after the Bible was written, and as we all know, you can't re-write the Bible for your own purpo… uh, moving on!

9. Credit Open-Mindedness of Disciples: Nothing says open-mindedness like conservatism. Schlafly even has a test to examine whether or not you're open-minded. It goes something like this:

Schlafly: Isn't it possible that Obama is actually Satan reincarnated on Earth and sent to bring about the destruction of the Earth through his evil socialist, baby-killing, pro-environment, anti-capitalist policies?
Normal Person: No. I don't think he is.
Schlafly: So you don't even allow for the possibility that Obama is Lucifer reborn? You can't conceive of a world where the president is the bringer of sin into the world?
Normal Person: No. I may not agree with him on some—
Schlafly: So are you so closed-minded to possibilities that you refuse to entertain even the chance – however remote – that the president is Beelzebub? Are you so arrogant in holding your own view so steadfastly that you exclude all other viewpoints as invalid?
Normal Person: Well… well, no.
Schlafly: So you admit there's a possibility that Obama is the anti-Christ! Thank you. Now you're open-minded.

Don't believe me? Here is the actual list.

10. Prefer Conciseness over Liberal Wordiness: Words, you see, are a nasty-but-necessary invention of the left. Conservatives were happy with symbols – eagles, flags, swastikas. So revisionists have to use as few words as possible. Does this conflict with 'dumbing down' the language since the way you arrive at that "7th-Grade Level" status is to divide the number of sentences by the number of syllables? Of course not. If it did conflict, it would be an example of 'doublethink,' another one of those conservative terms, which means 'holding two contradictory ideas.' It would be like trying to explain why an omniscient God who can see to the end of time would be surprised and angry that his creation disobeyed Him within a matter of days, or how God never changes His mind yet sent his only Son to save the world from His own wrath. The use of the modifier "very" in "very real existence of hell" back in #6 also does not conflict with the economy of words Schlafly touts here because it's not a choice between "real/not real." There are degrees of distance from reality, just as there are degrees of distance from Kevin Bacon movies, and because Satan is *very* real, we know that he is *very* close to reality (and, as it turns out, very close to Kevin Bacon because Satan was in The Witches of Eastwick as played by Jack Nicholson, and Jack Nicholson was in A Few Good Men with Kevin Bacon!)

To their credit, most Christian organizations, even those with an admitted conservative bent, have balked at the project. And why not? To them, the Bible already is a conservative treatise as written.

Re-writing the Bible is nothing new, though. It's been translated into over 400 languages, and with those translations must come some degree of revision. Thomas Jefferson excised many of the supernatural passages and just used the "Jeffersonian Bible" as a philosophy on life. Ah, those wacky deists. Of course, God probably "took away his part of out of the book of life" or perhaps gave him some sort of plague. Gender-neutralists got in on the re-writing act over a decade ago. Hell, one only needs look up the phrase "Markan Appendage" to know that people have been adding to or subtracting from the Bible since just after they were warned not to.

So what's the big deal? Well, this is the first time that the Bible has specifically been written to advance a political ideology – except, of course, the first time, heh heh. Sure, the Today's New International Version and the New Revised Standard Version were lauded by liberals and feminists for their gender-neutral language, but the original reason for those revisions wasn't to make a political point but to correct gender-specific language from the original translations that may or may not have been intended (Anyone who's taken a foreign language can tell you that gender creates a mess of problems when translated to and from English).

The bigger problem is what this does to Christianity. Schlafly is pushing to excise Christ's final lamentation "Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do" (Luke 23:34) because it was a late addendum, was cited by only one apostle, and (most importantly) is too forgiving. Schlafly's argument, which misses the point entirely, is that the executioners knew damned well what they were doing. And there we run into a fundamental problem with Schlafly's re-writes. Schlafly objects, saying that "for they know not what they do" implies that ignorance of the law is an excuse. I think most reasonable people, which Jesus was, would say it's a mitigating factor at least. If I pick up your IPod thinking it's mine, I've stolen it, but I wasn't aware of it. That's a far cry from rifling through your bag and snagging it. Likewise, Jesus' executioners thought he was a blasphemer, not the actual son of God. (Boy, were their faces red.) Therefore, Jesus' plea was more along the lines of, "Hey, Dad, you gotta admit, it does sound far-fetched. Don't take it out on them."

Does anyone else see a problem with erasing Christ's plea because it expresses a call for forgiveness? Like maybe, "What's the point in Christianity then?" For those who believe that Christ died on the cross for their sins as a gift to humanity, and that accepting that gift means acknowledging his sacrifice, then his final plea to God is essential. That's what fulfills the prophecy. He didn't just get killed by a bunch of thugs; he sacrificed himself on our behalf. Jesus was cool like that. Whether or not you believe that Christ literally said that is irrelevant. His *actions* were to give his own life in exchange for mercy on us, and if you erase the words based on the inconvenient premise that it implies liberal mercy, then you're changing the reason for him being on the cross.

If "forgiveness" and "mercy" are liberal traits, then one has to acknowledge that the Bible has some liberal traits as well as conservative ones. Either that, or one has to jettison the major tenet of Christianity itself – that Christ died for our sins and our path to salvation is through Him.

The real dividing line between the liberal and conservative views of the Bible, as I see it, is whether or not you believe Christ's philosophy or identity are most important. That's why the real antithesis of Schlafly's Conservative Online Bible is not the TNIV — which Schalfly seems to hate with a passion heretofore only reserved for vagina — but the Jeffersonian Bible, a tome that focuses solely on the moral teachings of Christ while excluding the miracles.

To me, the greatest conversation on the need and use for religion took place not in the halls of Congress, nor a convention hall, nor even a house of worship. It took place on a Hollywood soundstage between Spencer Tracy and Frederic March as they sat in rocking chairs playing friendly rivals "Henry Drummond" and "Matthew Harrison Brady" (stand-ins for real-life Scopes counterparts Clarence Darrow and William Jennings Bryan) in Inherit the Wind. It's the one scene in the film where Brady isn't portrayed as a cartoon character – although that aspect certainly makes the film more entertaining.

In the scene, both men have just come from a town prayer meeting in which the Reverend Brown (Claude Akins) has just damned his daughter to hell for defending her evolutionist boyfriend. Brady approaches noted-agnostic Drummond as he's sitting on the porch and asks him why Drummond has moved so far away from him (Drummond had campaigned for Brady for president). Drummond smiles: All motion is relative. Maybe it is you who have moved away by standing still.

Brady, undeterred, challenges Drummond by asking, "These are simple people, Henry, poor people. They work hard and they need to believe in something, something beautiful. They're seeking something more perfect than what they have. Why do you want to take it away from them?"

To me, this is the positivity of religion in a nutshell. I'm a rationalist and a pragmatist, but I think there is a kind of Beauty in having something that is "unknowable," something beyond material understanding. But I also understand that there are men like Schlafly who would cynically twist honest belief into political capital.

Drummond sums this up nicely when he responds, "All shine and no substance. All glitter and glamour; you say you're giving the people hope? I say you're *stealing* their hope. As long as the prerequisite for that shining paradise is ignorance, bigotry, and hate, I say to hell with it!"


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Comments (48)

 
From a Christian-

GREAT article, J.D. I love your writing.

I must say that, if a person is willing and able to get past the notion that ignorance, bigotry and hate have no place in Christianity whatsoever, real talk can happen between people about stuff like this.

People that promote ignorance, bigotry and hate have no place in a religion based on love, forgiveness, grace and selflessness.


Posted By: BDL (Guest)  on October 11, 2009 at 02:34 PM

 
 
I heard about this on Bill Maher. It's rather sad.

Posted By: The Great Capt. Smooth (Guest)  on October 11, 2009 at 03:22 PM

 
 
Don't forget Gal 1:8 "If man or angel teaches a gospel other than the Gospel taught to them, their only reward is that of eternal damnation"

It does not specify liberal nor conservative.


Posted By: Mikel (Guest)  on October 11, 2009 at 04:00 PM

 
 
Get DOWN with your concise but articulate self, Dunn!

Posted By: KanyonKreist (Guest)  on October 11, 2009 at 04:10 PM

 
 
i heard about this on rachel maddows show an my friends who are christian whos dad is a pastor is PISSED at this hes like where not supposed to be political where a belife system damn it

i wonder if ill ever not be amazed at the insanity of the right like you know after you see a wrestling bumb they have to go bigger next time i wonder if they wont ever fail to not go bigger


Posted By: MaZZacare (Guest)  on October 11, 2009 at 04:52 PM

 
 
The Conservative Bible Project: for people who thought the bible just wasn't fictional enough.

Posted By: Joe Kerr (Guest)  on October 11, 2009 at 08:55 PM

 
 
I am an imperfect Christian

Besides the arguments about the validity of the scriptures, and the idea that the Bible WASN'T written with a particular political view in mind -

This guy Schlafy is WHACKED.

Forgiveness and Mercy are Liberal traits?

I guess we should just convieniently forget that Jesus died on a cross so our sins could be forgiven...

If you believe the Bible...

As a side comment - Jesus was an anti-establishment kind of God-Man - he pissed ALOT of people off.


Posted By: Stephen (Guest)  on October 11, 2009 at 09:20 PM

 
 
Sheesh, you'd think people who based their lives on a work of fiction would have more respect for it

Posted By: Q:? (Guest)  on October 11, 2009 at 09:45 PM

 
 
I'm agnostic, and this sickens even me.

Perversion of the story of Jesus (the only thing I like about Christianity is the story of one man's compassion, acceptance, and forgiveness for everyone around him) just disturbs me.

The one message, the most important one in the bible... that so many Christians seem to forget... and this man wants to destroy it.

Go figure.


Posted By: luna (Guest)  on October 11, 2009 at 09:50 PM

 
 
Schlafly, and people like him, don't need to be picked on; their lunatic and laughable ideas hurt them enough already!

Seriously, is there anyone out there who did not read this and just A) shake their heads, or B) laugh outright?


Posted By: Crow21 (Guest)  on October 12, 2009 at 12:17 AM

 
 
"Perversion of the story of Jesus (the only thing I like about Christianity is the story of one man's compassion, acceptance, and forgiveness for everyone around him) just disturbs me."

What should disturb you more is how your ignoring the other half of Christ's message: repenting from your sins, accepting him as your only Lord and Savior, and avoiding His final judgment....

Anything less than that is the same as nothing as all


Posted By: Mikel (Guest)  on October 12, 2009 at 12:32 AM

 
 
Schlafly, and people like him, don't need to be picked on; their lunatic and laughable ideas hurt them enough already!

Seriously, is there anyone out there who did not read this and just A) shake their heads, or B) laugh outright?

Posted By: Crow21 (Guest) on October 12, 2009 at 12:17 AM

I would think you need to ask Rachael Maddow and JD Dunn that question bro. I would have never heard of him or his crazy message unless left wingers did not try to capitalize on it to paint the right wing as phychos, like that moron.


Posted By: John Galbraith (Guest)  on October 12, 2009 at 12:57 AM

 
 
"Perversion of the story of Jesus (the only thing I like about Christianity is the story of one man's compassion, acceptance, and forgiveness for everyone around him) just disturbs me."

What should disturb you more is how your ignoring the other half of Christ's message: repenting from your sins, accepting him as your only Lord and Savior, and avoiding His final judgment....

Anything less than that is the same as nothing as all"

Yes, completely his ignore the entire point of his post. This is why, as an agnostic, I have a problem with many religions. There's no discussion or debate. If you raise a valid point, it gets ignored in favor of the same old proselytizing. Did you ever consider the fact that you might actually win me over if you engaged in a civil debate instead of tossing off the talking points we all already have heard before? Some of us have open minds. Engage that instead of the weak sermon.


Posted By: Guest#9639 (Guest)  on October 12, 2009 at 01:39 AM

 
 
Reach out and touch faith kids.

Agnostic, or the worship of knowledge, is just as much as a "crutch" as the Christians use allegedly. You are flawed, therefore your intelligence is flawed, therefore you are flawed. To stand back and critique something that most people never read, but listen to what others say about it is the most dangerous kind of ignorance. To say the Bible is a work of fiction is of equal scientific quality as anyones ability to shoot holes in the THEORY of evolution. You don't want to believe then fine, your choice. But do not pepper message boards with comments about "this is why you are agnostic" etc etc, when the real reason is that you cannot wrap your heads around the concept of unconditional love as it has never been shown to you in your entire life. Read the Bible, seek counsel on it, understand what it is for what it can do for your life. It is not a book of rules and regulations, but a way of living that can free you from the burden of carrying the wrongs that you have done and will do. This guy, to edit the Bible, will have to answer it for one day. It is wrong. His quest to make this happen comes from a place of anger and vengence and self righteousness and should be condemend by Christian and non believer alike. But just as Sean Hannity challenged Micheal Moore to socialize his personal wealth, I challenge you agnostics to read the Bible cover to cover and talk to a christian that you respect about it. In fact there is a Bible that specificially caters to agnostics and christians that have a hard time rationalizing thier faith. It's called the Apologetics Study Bible and comes with notes from prominent theologians. I hope that you will take the time agnostics, to really read and study the Bible before making sweeping indictments of people that have found it to be enlightining and make their quality of life better.

Inherit the Wind. Thats good. I inherited Forgiveness.

Thats better. You can too. It takes about 3 minutes, is painless, and afterwards you will feel better than any drug, or drink, or man, or woman, or theory, or arrogance could ever make you feel.

Only the Truth can set you free.


Posted By: Guest (Guest)  on October 12, 2009 at 05:03 AM

 
 
When I found out about this, the quote you put at the beginning was the FIRST thing that came to my mind!

Posted By: Jamal (Guest)  on October 12, 2009 at 09:34 AM

 
 
As i have said before"there are idiots in every walk of life" This guy and his conservative bible are not a representation of all Christians, and most definatley nota representation of conservatives. As both a Christian and a conservative this offends me deeply.
As I was reading your "thought provoking little hate piece"It occured to me that you obviously have a disdain for any opinion that isnt yours. Now who's kidding who here. This piece you wrote was 1/2 an attack on the conservative bible[I agree] and 1/2 on Christians in general[I do not agree]. I am not amused and you really should check your ego at the door....CHAMP


Posted By: Buck Williams (Guest)  on October 12, 2009 at 09:41 AM

 
 
"Schlafly, and people like him, don't need to be picked on; their lunatic and laughable ideas hurt them enough already"

Bachmann, Michelle
Beck, Glenn.

Two names whose lunatic ideas have only fed their reputations.

"I would think you need to ask Rachael Maddow and JD Dunn that question bro. I would have never heard of him or his crazy message unless left wingers did not try to capitalize on it to paint the right wing as phychos, like that moron."

You go to print with the news you have, not the news you wish you had. Had no one reported on this, I'm sure the cry would have been, "Why is the mainstream media ignoring conservatives?!"

The Schlaflys are pretty big names in the Republican party, probably akin to the Cuomos in the Democratic party. You'll also note that I did say that most Christian conservative organizations think this is a bad idea, so this is hardly an indictment of all right-wingers.


Posted By: J.D. Dunn (Registered)  on October 12, 2009 at 09:44 AM

 
 
"Reach out and touch faith."

I've been trying, but all it got me was a restraining order and angry letters from Tim McGraw.


Posted By: J.D. Dunn (Registered)  on October 12, 2009 at 11:50 AM

 
 
How many Schlafleys have run for elected office?

How many Cuomos have held elected office?


Posted By: AdmChesterMynutz (Guest)  on October 12, 2009 at 11:55 AM

 
 
"This guy and his conservative bible are not a representation of all Christians, and most definatley nota representation of conservatives."

Objection overruled. He doesn't represent all Christians, but he does represent the current conservative climate, which revolves around rewriting the message if it doesn't suit your purpose. This happens with Fox News and its taking clips out of context. It happens with science as we've seen with the answersingenesis and climate-change crowd. And now it's happening with the Bible. This is just a logical extension of the "re-writing the evidence to agree with the ideology" phenomenon.

"This piece you wrote was 1/2 an attack on the conservative bible[I agree] and 1/2 on Christians in general[I do not agree]. I am not amused and you really should check your ego at the door....CHAMP".

Boy, will you feel silly. God actually dictated the entire column to me. Could the line about Kevin Bacon really come from someone who was not divinely inspired...BUCK?


Posted By: J.D. Dunn (Registered)  on October 12, 2009 at 12:16 PM

 
 
Agnostic, or the worship of knowledge, is just as much as a "crutch" as the Christians use allegedly.


I think you need to brush up on your definition. An agnostic could be a Christian OR an Athiest.

I fail to see how saying "well, I dont know if there is a God, and I dont believe you CAN know such a thing" is a crutch.

A crutch would be more like a work of fiction which guides your attitudes and actions, providing misguided answers to life's questions.


Posted By: Guest#9927 (Guest)  on October 12, 2009 at 12:19 PM

 
 
"Agnostic, or the worship of knowledge, is just as much as a "crutch" as the Christians use allegedly. You are flawed, therefore your intelligence is flawed, therefore you are flawed."

I don't worship knowledge, or anything else. To do so would be pointless. Knowledge changes -- the longer humans are around the more we know that what we know is very little.

I call myself agnostic as a mere formality, "atheist" is a more proper assessment. Do I know if there is a god? No. But the answer to me is entirely irrelevant. I won't live my life in the confines of someone else's defined morality. If someone came up to me and asked if believed Spiderman existed, I'd say no. "How can you be sure?" It's a ludicrous question -- he's a fictional character. The same could be said of "How can you be sure God doesn't exist?" Oh, well I suppose there's a very remote possibility in God. That doesn't mean I have to believe it.

But that isn't to say I think religions have nothing to offer. Jesus had a message of PEACE and ACCEPTANCE.

Yet MOST modern day Christians are so hung-up on the various other parts of the bible that they seem to forget that they're supposed to be accepting our differences and helping one another.

And that includes those of other religions or non-religions. That includes gay and bisexual people. That includes transgenders or the genderqueer. Christianity was supposed to be a message of love, not a message of hate. It's a sad state to see the these supposedly wonderful people of this supposedly wonderful religion trying to USE their religion to force people into THEIR comfort zone. I doubt that was Jesus' message. "Love thy neighbor unless thy neighbor is different."


Posted By: luna (Guest)  on October 12, 2009 at 12:24 PM

 
 
THIS liberal eggheld with BS in PoliSci gives your article an 'A'!

Posted By: Guest#5233 (Guest)  on October 12, 2009 at 12:36 PM

 
 
Ya know, Dunn, you shouldn't write about things you don't have the first clue about. Reading your summations on the validity, meaning and context of the Bible is a joke. You should stick to writing about things like wrestling and Lindsay's crotch, cause you DON'T have any IDEA about the Bible and the religion it defines.

Posted By: El Sexorcisto (Guest)  on October 12, 2009 at 01:37 PM

 
 
"Ya know, Dunn, you shouldn't write about things you don't have the first clue about. Reading your summations on the validity, meaning and context of the Bible is a joke. You should stick to writing about things like wrestling and Lindsay's crotch, cause you DON'T have any IDEA about the Bible and the religion it defines."

Given that it defines more than one religion, that's a definite possibility.

You're just proving my point, though.


Posted By: J.D. Dunn (Registered)  on October 12, 2009 at 02:29 PM

 
 
"This guy and his conservative bible are not a representation of all Christians, and most definatley nota representation of conservatives."

Objection overruled. He doesn't represent all Christians, but he does represent the current conservative climate, which revolves around rewriting the message if it doesn't suit your purpose. This happens with Fox News and its taking clips out of context. It happens with science as we've seen with the answersingenesis and climate-change crowd. And now it's happening with the Bible. This is just a logical extension of the "re-writing the evidence to agree with the ideology" phenomenon.

"This piece you wrote was 1/2 an attack on the conservative bible[I agree] and 1/2 on Christians in general[I do not agree]. I am not amused and you really should check your ego at the door....CHAMP".

Boy, will you feel silly. God actually dictated the entire column to me. Could the line about Kevin Bacon really come from someone who was not divinely inspired...BUCK?"

Sorry, you lose major points by calling Fox News conservative. Religiously conservative, maybe. Conservative as compared to the Democratic Party, yes. But not conservative politically or fiscally, as had as they'd like to try.

The Republican Party isn't conservative on anything other than a few social issues. Please stop using these blanket statements just because the pundits use them. It's insulting and it delegitimizes your argument.


Posted By: The Man (Guest)  on October 12, 2009 at 02:57 PM

 
 
"Sorry, you lose major points by calling Fox News conservative. Religiously conservative, maybe. Conservative as compared to the Democratic Party, yes. But not conservative politically or fiscally, as had as they'd like to try."

I forgot Sean Hannity had recently rejected conservative ideology and become a liberal commentator. Oh...wait...that didn't happen at all.


Posted By: DSJ (Guest)  on October 12, 2009 at 03:55 PM

 
 
So you're telling me why I'm an agnostic? Sorry, no. I was schooled in the Bible for 12 years. I understand the concept of unconditional love, but as Dunn pointed out in his article, there are flaws like The Problem of Hell which cause concern for me. More and more I'm coming to believe there might be a guiding force behind everything but arrogance, likes yours, is part of what turns me off to organized religion. There is no absolute truth. I'm limited by my mind but that's all I have to go on. My heart doesn't make judgments nor does my conscience because these are both notions we've created to explain the portions of the brain that makes those decisions. I can only go with what makes sense to me. God makes sense to you, but I'm not there yet. And the more you speak to me in condescending tones as you do, the longer it takes someone like me to reach that point because you can't separate God from the people that follow Him. They're the ones that preach His word. They're the ones we associate with Him. They're ultimately His face in this world. Which, again, is why I stress the point of civil debate. Telling someone why they believe something without knowing them personally isn't civil; it's arrogant. Your message betrays your cause because you turn off as many as you might receive.

But in the end, agnosticism isn't about the worship of knowledge. It's about the absence of knowledge.


Posted By: Guest#7694 (Guest)  on October 12, 2009 at 04:07 PM

 
 
"Sorry, you lose major points by calling Fox News conservative. Religiously conservative, maybe. Conservative as compared to the Democratic Party, yes. But not conservative politically or fiscally, as had as they'd like to try.

The Republican Party isn't conservative on anything other than a few social issues. Please stop using these blanket statements just because the pundits use them. It's insulting and it delegitimizes your argument."

Huh?


Posted By: J.D. Dunn (Registered)  on October 12, 2009 at 04:25 PM

 
 
The Schlaflys are pretty big names in the Republican party, probably akin to the Cuomos in the Democratic party. You'll also note that I did say that most Christian conservative organizations think this is a bad idea, so this is hardly an indictment of all right-wingers.

Posted By: J.D. Dunn (Registered) on October 12, 2009 at 09:44 AM

Really? Have they ever ran for public office, have they ever held a cabinet position? Do they have a show on CNN, MSNBC, or Fox?

Now, Van Jones on the other hand.............


Posted By: John Galbraith (Guest)  on October 12, 2009 at 04:42 PM

 
 
"Ya know, Dunn, you shouldn't write about things you don't have the first clue about. Reading your summations on the validity, meaning and context of the Bible is a joke. You should stick to writing about things like wrestling and Lindsay's crotch, cause you DON'T have any IDEA about the Bible and the religion it defines."

Given that it defines more than one religion, that's a definite possibility.

You're just proving my point, though.

Posted By: J.D. Dunn (Registered) on October 12, 2009 at 02:29 PM
____________________________________

No, JD, you just proved my point that you don't really know what you're talking about, thank you.

When people speak about the Bible, they are speaking about the Christian Bible. Yes, the Tanakh, is the Old Testament from the same Bible and is the book of Judaism. But people don't refer to that as The Bible. It is referred to as The Tanakh, Torah or The Hebrew Bible.

So I was correct, you are another weasel spouting off with big words that you don't know the meaning of and trying to appear educated in the process. Don't lecture us on shit you don't even understand little man.


Posted By: El Sexorcisto (Guest)  on October 12, 2009 at 05:47 PM

 
 
looks like i smacked the monkey hard enough to get the organ grinders attention. Its obvious to me that you gave the world this lovely piece of hate because you were just chomping at the bit to slam the Christian right. Do you feel better? does it bruise your ego to know that you have changed no minds? All you have really done is attack a way of life that you dont understand. But if it makes you feel better, this is the best article about God and politics that i have ever read on a wrestling web site. Why dont you do us all a favor Moses, stick to the wrestling,and porno movies and leave matters of faith to those that have values. this man Schlayfly no more speaks for me than Al Sharpton speaks for you. and lets agree to disagree

Posted By: Buck Williams (Guest)  on October 12, 2009 at 07:25 PM

 
 
Do not confuse arrogance with confidence. For what is faith except confidence in sights unseen? Agnostic is a derivitive of the greek word "gnosis" which means higher knowledge or "to serve" knowledge. That is the original definition. If that definition does not define what you believe, perhaps you should not characterize yourself as agnostic. It is difficult to convey emotion through the written word, but I assure you my tone is not flippant or righteous. It is very interesting however, that you assume that my tone is that. It is an assumption made, because you most likely have been burned and upset by talking heads that have told you that you are going to roast for all eternity, or that having sex is bad, or smoking pot is a sin, or you will be sharing dinner with Hitler and Milosivec if you drink that Bud Light. This is simply not the case, which is why in my post, I encouraged you to read more and do more self education regarding the Bible than make a sweeping indictment of a specific nomenclature. I think liberalism is going to be the eventual downfall of humanity in general. However I have a lot of friends who are liberals, and thier heart is in the right place and they believe what they think is right. I do not hate them. I somewhat understand what conclusions they draw. It's because we have a free exchange of ideas and dialouge however that we are able to understand each other rather than have a blind hatred or misunderstanding of thier belief system. Most agnostics and atheists never even bother to pick up a Bible they just feel sad and angry someone talked down to them and see lunatics on television shooting off and twisting words and logic to fit thier agenda. Kind of like a Micheal Moore film. The challenge stands. Read the Bible, understand it, TRULY understand it, and you will have a different perspective on it then what you have listened to others tell you.

Did Tim McGraw cover Personal Jesus? I do not listen to country.


Posted By: Guest (Guest)  on October 12, 2009 at 07:33 PM

 
 
El Sexorcisto,

Grrr...I strongly dislike "Christians" like you. You do not understand anything about the Bible. Which is comprised as two different books, moron, OLD and NEW. Point of fact, I've argued how Christ redefined the meaning of the Old Testament with his sermons.

God in the Old Testament was a short tempered S.O.B. that was angry and vengeful all the time. Jesus Christ talked about peace being the only way. Idiots, like you, support your hate with things that come from the Old Testament.

If you are a Christian, you follow the New Testament. You don't see a rabbi talking about the meaning of the New Testament, do you? If really support Christ, the New Testament is your only book for salvation. If you support your arguments with the Old Testament, then you Jewish. It is that simple...


Posted By: David (Guest)  on October 12, 2009 at 07:47 PM

 
 
I know the root of the word agnostic. But simply because something meant one thing at one point in time does not mean it always maintains the same meaning. The swastika was a symbol of peace to the Hindu religion at one point in time but gained an entirely different meaning when it was adopted by a very different group.

Words and symbols take on new meanings as time progresses. While at one point agnosticism may have been created by those devoted to knowledge, today if you ask most people what agnostic means they'll reiterate my original point: they don't have enough information to decide. While knowledge is still part of the equation, here it is an absence of knowledge. I'm not pleading ignorance; I'm saying I need to search out and educate myself before I feel comfortable making a decision. That's not serving knowledge. It's using what limited tools I have to grasp what many would call an abstract concept.

And while I understand that you may perceive what you posted as confidence, as I pointed out before, when you force your own belief structure and meanings onto to someone else to tell them why they believe something then that is arrogance. You don't know my life experience nor do you have any inkling as to who I am so you could have no way of understanding why I define myself as an agnostic at this point in time. To assume you do is an arrogant assumption. I don't hate you for it. I'd saddened that you can't see it as that, or at least understand why I see it that way.


Posted By: Guest#5736 (Guest)  on October 12, 2009 at 08:43 PM

 
 
I never forced anything on anyone. I just gave a reference point to a useful tool that may help you make that decision. In the end the decision is yours, how is that forcing anything on anyone?

Posted By: Guest (Guest)  on October 13, 2009 at 01:27 AM

 
 
The Schlaflys are pretty big names in the Republican party, probably akin to the Cuomos in the Democratic party. You'll also note that I did say that most Christian conservative organizations think this is a bad idea, so this is hardly an indictment of all right-wingers.

Posted By: J.D. Dunn (Registered) on October 12, 2009 at 09:44 AM

Really? Have they ever ran for public office, have they ever held a cabinet position? Do they have a show on CNN, MSNBC, or Fox?

Andy Schladly tried to run for the Republican Party in 1992, but finished last in his primary. So no office, but he tried.

Phyllis Schlafly is a famous anti-feminist and founder of the Eagle Forum. She is prominent.


Posted By: Simon (Guest)  on October 13, 2009 at 08:30 AM

 
 
"When people speak about the Bible, they are speaking about the Christian Bible. "Yes, the Tanakh, is the Old Testament *from the same Bible and is the book of Judaism.* But people don't refer to that as The Bible. It is referred to as The Tanakh, Torah or The Hebrew Bible."

It doesn't matter what people call it. You just admitted several religions use it. That's all I said. To call it a "Christian" Bible doesn't narrow it down much either - Mainline and Conservative Protestants, Catholics, Jehovah's Witnesses. They are wildly divergent and use the same book.

You proved my point that there is nothing but bile and hatred in your heart.

"Don't lecture us on shit you don't even understand little man."

Spoken like a true Christian. What a pious man you are.

"looks like i smacked the monkey hard enough to get the organ grinders attention. Its obvious to me that you gave the world this lovely piece of hate because you were just chomping at the bit to slam the Christian right. Do you feel better? does it bruise your ego to know that you have changed no minds? All you have really done is attack a way of life that you dont understand. But if it makes you feel better, this is the best article about God and politics that i have ever read on a wrestling web site. Why dont you do us all a favor Moses, stick to the wrestling,and porno movies and leave matters of faith to those that have values. this man Schlayfly no more speaks for me than Al Sharpton speaks for you. and lets agree to disagree"

More thinly veiled smugness without examples, which is why you deserve ridicule.

"You're only allowed to talk to me if you agree with me!"

Schlafly may not speak for you, but you evince the same mindset.


Posted By: J.D. Dunn (Registered)  on October 13, 2009 at 11:03 AM

 
 
Looks like i struck a nerve. i have never used the "lets agree to disagree" statement as fuel for a pointless argument. you are wrong on all counts and you are ticked off because this isnt going your way. The Schlafly's are as prominent in the Republican Party as you are in the democrartic one. You should eplore the history of both the rebulican party and the history of christianity before you do your best impersination of a learned individual. Every point that you have made has more holes in it than and 3 ton block of swiss cheese. Sorry , but you are wrong.

Posted By: Buck Williams (Guest)  on October 13, 2009 at 01:00 PM

 
 
Nice article, as always Dunn. I've dabbled in just about all the different religions out there at one time or another... I consider myself an agnostic in the true sense, questioning both material and spiritual assumptions.

I have no love for religious zealots of any stripe, but that doesn't equate to intolerance of religion. The Bible does need some trimming: mostly around the beginning and end.

Drop Genesis, drop Leviticus, drop everything with Paul and drop Revelations and you're looking at a way more tolerant, intelligent piece of work. Better yet, drop everything but Ecclesiastes, Job & the four gospels and you're really cooking something better.


Posted By: Madcap Unlimited (Guest)  on October 13, 2009 at 03:28 PM

 
 
Metternich must be spinning like a goddamned top.

Posted By: squiggle (Guest)  on October 13, 2009 at 04:04 PM

 
 
Remember, Al Gore's book was found in the Unabomber's cabin when they arrested him. I've never heard of Phyllis Schafely and I'm a proud conservative. She sounds like an idiot though, but that doesn't validate Rachel Maddow's views any more because of it.

Posted By: Da Man (Guest)  on October 14, 2009 at 11:12 AM

 
 
"Spoken like a true Christian. What a pious man you are." - JD Dunn

Coming from a heathen, that means absolutely nothing to me. I am very comfortable in my faith and my personal relationship with Jesus.


Posted By: El Sexorcisto (Guest)  on October 14, 2009 at 01:38 PM

 
 
Excellent article JD - although you are clearly overestimating the power of the Schafly's on the Republican Party.

The thing is that this isn't even close it the worst of Andy Schafly - can I recommend that you, and everyone reading, check's out Rational Wiki's What's Going On At Conservapedia for a rolling update on the idiocy and a large part of the rest of the site for the history of the crazy shennanigans of Andy and the whole CP crew.

http://rationalwiki.com/wiki/Conservapedia:What_is_going_on_at_CP%3F

http://rationalwiki.com/wiki/Andrew_Schlafly

http://rationalwiki.com/wiki/Category:Conservapedia


Posted By: Chapman Baxter (Guest)  on October 14, 2009 at 06:00 PM

 
 
"The Schlafly's are as prominent in the Republican Party as you are in the democrartic one."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phyllis_Schlafly

Why do you guys always resort to lies? What is it about you? I'm curious. I'm not attacking. It's like it's pathological.


Posted By: J.D. Dunn (Registered)  on October 17, 2009 at 04:17 PM

 
 
"I am very comfortable in my faith and my personal relationship with Jesus."

As your internet handle no doubt indicates. Quite frankly, you come off more as a pharisee - boisterously pious in public yet inwardly weak of conscience.


Posted By: J.D. Dunn (Registered)  on October 17, 2009 at 04:31 PM

 
 
If it isnt an attack, why did you start off by calling him a liar? Just sayin

Posted By: Jeff Albertson (Guest)  on October 18, 2009 at 12:40 PM

 
 
Hand Banana reference FTW.

Plus, people who actually look at the Bible as anything other than interesting fairy tales simply cannot be trusted to act sensibly in any number of situations, so why bother trying to appeal to them? It's not PC, but they are simply TOO FUCKING STUPID to be given credibility.

The Bible is an interesting read, no doubt. Parts of it are very useful. But other parts are not. It's just a book, an entirely human, flawed, book. Like the Qur'an. Or like Great Expectations. Like any collection of words written or printed on paper. If you're going to accept something into your life, accept THAT.


Posted By: Frank (Guest)  on November 14, 2009 at 06:19 PM

 
STAY CURRENT

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