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 411mania » Politics » Blog Entry
Oklahoma HB 1595
Posted by Jason Douglas on 10.27.2009



To begin this article, I want to state clearly that I am writing specifically about Oklahoma House Bill 1595 and its implications, not the larger subject of abortion in general. I can't kid myself; some people will jump at any opportunity to sound off on abortion rights as a whole. I will just say one thing about that. Over several articles, I've communicated many ideas, some of which are highly debatable and stir strong emotions. Because my give and take with those making comments has been respectful and civilized, they have been receptive to my ideas, even when I couldn't persuade them. Whatever you have to say, check the personal attacks at the door, or you're just wasting keystrokes.

Oklahoma HB 1595 can be read in pdf format at http://www.sos.state.ok.us/documents/Legislation/52nd/2009/1R/HB/1595.pdf if you like. It's not that long at thirty pages, and is written in plain English, so it's at least worth skimming. It has been passed into law but its enactment is currently stalled by a legal challenge. The main points of the bill are stated as banning abortions which are "solely on account of the sex of the unborn child", and to set up information gathering on abortions. There are other implications but for the sake of keeping this shorter than a Harry Potter book I'm focusing on the main points. If anyone thinks I've glossed over something important in the bill I encourage you to expound in the comments section.

First, it should be noted that the federally-funded Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, or the CDC, in Atlanta already has collected state-by-state abortion data since 1969, which is available online. Oklahoma state Rep. Dan Sullivan, a Tulsa Republican and co-author of House Bill 1595, said that the law is intended "to find out why people are seeking abortions and see if there is something we can do as a state to have a positive impact." So while on the surface it appears this law advocates redundant information gathering, its sponsors assert that the more specific data they seek will presumably lead to legislation which could lower demand for abortions. Let's turn our focus to the information being sought via a form which the law would require be filled out and submitted for every abortion performed. This list of 37 questions must either be filled out by the woman or verbally asked and checked off by her doctor. The list does not require divulging the patient's name, but asks for info which put together could be used to identify women in rural areas through process of elimination. It could also potentially lead to women being misidentified by nosy neighbors as having gotten abortions. The age of the woman, marital status, years of education, number of previous pregnancies and their outcomes, etc. are all required to be given. Many of the questions are of a nature that a reasonable person could see as keeping with Rep. Sullivan's stated purpose. But then comes the very lengthy section for question 15: Reason given for abortion.

After the phrase "reason given for abortion" is a list of 35 possible options (plus "other" and "patient declined to give a reason" at the end), with a directive to check all that apply. Seems benign enough, right? The first problem is the wording. The abortion seeker is not referred to here as "the patient" or "the woman", but as "the mother". For question 15 alone, the word "mother" appears over 30 times. You would think a list this long would cover every possible reason a woman could give, but there's a glaring exception. While the themes of financial hardship, interference with education, and relationship status are covered in several different ways, and "mother is not ready for a, another child" is included, the choice "does not WANT a child" is conspicuously absent. Nearly 40 reasons, and the simple concept of a woman opting against motherhood isn't there. Any options that indicate a willing choice rather than health or practical considerations depict the woman as inept, such as "mother does not feel mature enough" and "emotional health of the mother is at risk". I think it's fair to say the structure and phrasing of this form are less than impartial. It is just a thinly veiled attempt to heap guilt and shame on a patient seeking a legal medical procedure.

Speaking of motives, as mentioned this law would ban abortions which are solely on account of the sex of the fetus. I find it curious that this hasn't been a bigger part of the story. Since when does the government have the power to disallow personal medical decisions based on motivation? There is growing concern over the notion of genetic manipulation and cloning being used one day to create "designer babies". Personally, I find it grotesque to picture a couple asking for a kid who will have blond hair, hazel eyes, high cheek bones, and stand 5'10", as if they're at the drive-thru ordering a meal. That issue, however, is not addressed by this law. This law prohibits an otherwise legal procedure if the given reason for seeking it is distasteful. If the woman checks gender AND any other reason, the abortion is allowed. Who empowered the Oklahoma Legislature to decide which reasons for legal conduct are acceptable and which are not? If I enrolled in medical school for the sole purpose of making a lot of money, could they ban me from receiving a license? How about someone getting plastic surgery out of sheer vanity? Aren't they effectively becoming a designer baby post birth? I don't think any of us wants to have to seek the approval of bureaucrats before we can get a face lift or hair plugs. It is not government's place to pass judgment on the personal morals of individuals, and to then use such judgment to selectively apply the law. Regardless of your stance on abortion, this precedent alone should be soundly rejected.

As a nation of laws, there are certain principles we must adhere to. The accused have a right to legally defend themselves. If they can't afford legal counsel, it is provided by the state (quality notwithstanding). If that were not the case, for many the right would be an illusion. Along similar grounds, we have a reasonable expectation that behavior which has been established as lawful will not be undermined by the very people charged with maintaining the integrity of the system they purport to serve. Efforts to hinder a citizen's ability to act in accordance with the law, free of harassment, are not in keeping with our best legal principles. Imagine being wrongly accused of a crime, finally exonerated, then having the state build a ten foot electrified fence around your house on a flimsy excuse. Disingenuous efforts to chip away at laws or court rulings some people don't like are unacceptable. Oklahoma's law should be struck down, and those who oppose abortion should try persuading women to make a different choice, rather than exploiting the law to intimidate them.


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1st how would your nosey neighbors find out if you filled out this form arent all medical paperwork private. And i dont see how them banning abortion cause the child is boy and not a girl is in anyway comparable to hairplugs. No one is arguing about hairplugs in healthcare bills as far as i know. Not sure what your point is with this article in no way does it stop anyone from having an abortion (unless the woman is a man hater cause he didnt pullout and doesnt want to have any boys now)

Posted By: Guest#3148 (Guest)  on October 28, 2009 at 07:39 AM

 
 
1st how would your nosey neighbors find out if you filled out this form arent all medical paperwork private. And i dont see how them banning abortion cause the child is boy and not a girl is in anyway comparable to hairplugs. No one is arguing about hairplugs in healthcare bills as far as i know. Not sure what your point is with this article in no way does it stop anyone from having an abortion (unless the woman is a man hater cause he didnt pullout and doesnt want to have any boys now)

Posted By: Guest#3148 (Guest) on October 28, 2009 at 07:39 AM

Well, I think what was stated was that the form itself has a huge bias against the thought of simply not wanting a kid. The wording makes the most difficult decision I can think of even harder.

Finally, why would it NOT be legal to chose an abortion due to teh gender of the child. I disagree with it, but that doesn't mean it needs to be codified into law.


Posted By: J. Alexander Mitchell (Guest)  on October 28, 2009 at 12:07 PM

 
 
Ultimately, Jason seems to be making a slippery slope argument. If we can ban one, or certain motivations for abortion, what other motivations can we ban? And once we ban enough motivations, have we effectively banned abortions?

It seems, to me, though, that the point of this bill, and many bills like it, both past and to come, is the legal challenge. The current Supreme Court has been surprisingly tight lipped on the subject thus far, and I think many pro-life groups want to see what, if anything, The Court is willing to do to overturn (even if only partially) Roe v Wade.

It actually reminds me of hate-crimes laws. Isn't the conservative argument against hate crime laws that you should punish the action, regardless of the motive, that the motive doesn't make an action any better or worse? Of course, that puts me, a supporter of hate crimes legislation, in the uncomfortable position of having my convictions logically conflict. Except, of course, that hate crime legislation is aimed at illegal behavior, while this legislation is aimed at legal behavior.

That the intent of the law is certainly to attempt to make obtaining abortions more difficult seems irrelevant, because it does not seem that it can practically accomplish this. As such, it seems to be a waste of time, although it sure should make for some interesting discussion.


Posted By: black hole of charisma (Guest)  on October 28, 2009 at 02:03 PM

 
 
For a country that spends so much money on pre-natal care, doctor visits, and exercises on a fetus, isn't it odd that we'd so quickly dismiss the idea that the fetus is a child?

Posted By: y2j420 (Guest)  on October 28, 2009 at 05:00 PM

 
 
black hole of charisma:

I think it's fair to call this a slippery slope argument. The effectiveness of this particular law doesn't alarm me nearly as much as the precedent it aims to set. If abortion can be banned for one reason, the other 34 on the list will follow.

I actually agree with conservatives on hate crime laws. In a free society we don't punish people's thoughts, no matter how ignorant we think they are. My logic is consistent, which curiously allows me to stand on opposite ends of the political spectrum on different issues without being hypocritical. It comes down to not wanting the Thought Police to be established in any form.


Posted By: Jason Douglas (Registered)  on October 28, 2009 at 05:13 PM

 
 
Guest#3148,

The freedom of information act would give someone the legal basis to look at these documents. In case you forgot, the bill is designed to gather information on abortion habits for the government. Therefor, the forms are government documents and may be requisitioned through the FIA.

And yes it does stop women who hate boys (or girls for that matter) from getting an abortion. And yes, that is a violation of the woman's right to privacy. Her reasons for getting an abortion should be no one's business but her own and her doctors'.


Posted By: Jlevysan (Guest)  on October 28, 2009 at 05:43 PM

 
 
If you read the link it will tell you that the information would be FREELY AVAILABLE on the internet. No FOIA requests are needed and not in a general "X% of women" way but in a "Click here for a list of all the recent abortion questionairs" that will list location and dates and all of those other questions that will make it easy to narrow down or at least vaugely suspect someone.

Posted By: Gnome (Guest)  on October 28, 2009 at 09:43 PM

 
 
It comes down to not wanting the Thought Police to be established in any form.

Posted By: Jason Douglas (Registered) on October 28, 2009 at 05:13 PM

Don't get me wrong, although I personally support hate crimes legislation, I find this to be a perfectly reasonable and largely persuasive argument.

I think it's fair to call this a slippery slope argument.

And the reason I brought that up was because of the poster who felt this article was pointless. While slippery slope is often used as a way to dismiss an argument, in this case, I believe the intent, actually is to start small and see how large they can get it to snow ball. That this bill, i believe, is intended to be fairly insignificant in and of itself, I can see how this is strategic on the part of the pro-life movement and am concerned about it in that regard.


Posted By: black hole of charisma (Guest)  on October 28, 2009 at 11:52 PM

 
 
And the reason I brought that up was because of the poster who felt this article was pointless. While slippery slope is often used as a way to dismiss an argument, in this case, I believe the intent, actually is to start small and see how large they can get it to snow ball. That this bill, i believe, is intended to be fairly insignificant in and of itself, I can see how this is strategic on the part of the pro-life movement and am concerned about it in that regard.

Posted By: black hole of charisma (Guest) on October 28, 2009 at 11:52 PM

I agree. I think the point of this bill is not to outlaw abortion outright, but the pro-life writers of it want to create a law that will seem harmless and technically legal. They want to set a groundwork to build on for years to come, adding brick by brick. If they were to outlaw abortion outright in Oklahoma, the Supreme Court would be forced to strike it down, but this takes a different approach.

I'm offended that the government thinks they can decide what is and is not a valid reason for abortion. If this sticks, next year they can add another one or two off the list, and the year after that, and the year after that, until there are no legally valid reasons.

I am lukewarmly pro-choice, and I can see the other side of the argument, but isn't Roe vs. Wade pretty much established law at this point? It's been on the books for 46 years, two generations of Americans. Overturning it would reverse almost half a century of American law and restart the entire abortion debate (including protests, rallies, and maybe even riots) exponentially over what we have now.

Oklahoma state legislators are just trying to fire up the base to win re-election, since OK is the reddest of red states. They went 66% McCain last year, more than any other state, including Alaska, a staunch Republican state with a governor on the ticket.


Posted By: General Sandoval (Guest)  on October 29, 2009 at 01:46 AM

 
 
For a country that spends so much money on pre-natal care, doctor visits, and exercises on a fetus, isn't it odd that we'd so quickly dismiss the idea that the fetus is a child?

Posted By: y2j420

Women who choose motherhood want to be sure their baby will be born healthy. I don't think that desire clashes in any way with those who choose against motherhood.

I won't say anything to trigger a "When does life begin?" debate because like many who support choice, I consider it moot. I don't want government forcing women to be incubators any more than I want them coming for one of my kidneys in the name of preserving someone else's life. As I maintain on all issues, another person's rights end where mine begin. So even if we take as fact that a fetus is a person, to me it still wouldn't justify banning abortion.

It's when someone chooses to bring a child into the world that they have to take responsibility for them. I consider the "choosing to have sex equals choosing motherhood" argument pure misogyny, so that doesn't hold up.

To refine my statement that those who oppose abortion should convince women to make another choice, what they really should do is become very active in favor of birth control to prevent the issue from coming up. But often that conflicts with their religious views, which are their true motivation. I have no issue with religious people as long as they keep it to themselves, so I'll leave that subject alone.


Posted By: Jason Douglas (Registered)  on October 29, 2009 at 09:59 AM

 
 
"1st how would your nosey neighbors find out if you filled out this form arent all medical paperwork private. And i dont see how them banning abortion cause the child is boy and not a girl is in anyway comparable to hairplugs. No one is arguing about hairplugs in healthcare bills as far as i know. Not sure what your point is with this article in no way does it stop anyone from having an abortion (unless the woman is a man hater cause he didnt pullout and doesnt want to have any boys now)"

As I understand it the data from complete application forms will be published on the internet and freely available. This pretty well gives the game away about the sponsors' intentions, since if the objective was truely to gather statistical information then the data would only be available in aggregated / anonymous form.

Given the range of questions being asked, there is very good chance that in a small community it will be easy to guess who the form relates to.

I think it is also relevant that the bill's sponsors have supported several other bills in the past designed to make it as difficult as possible for women to have an abortion. That is entirely their right, but it is something that needs to be considered when discussing the true aim of the bill and the motives of its sponsors.


Posted By: bemused brit (Guest)  on October 29, 2009 at 01:42 PM

 
 
so i went and read the questions the closest thing to ID you would be the "What county was abortion performed?" now in small towns like a few thousand people they most likely dont have places to get this done, so you gotta drive the next county over or where ever. Anyways i see what they're trying to do by putting these forms online. Can't say i agree with that part of it. Could careless if they ask questions though.

Posted By: Guest#9761 (Guest)  on October 29, 2009 at 07:23 PM

 
 
"As I maintain on all issues, another person's rights end where mine begin. So even if we take as fact that a fetus is a person, to me it still wouldn't justify banning abortion."

Bad choice of words. That comment alone means a person can "abort" their 2 week old baby if in that person's best interests since the baby's rights end where yours begins.


Posted By: Shawn S Lealos (Registered)  on October 30, 2009 at 12:09 AM

 
 
"As I maintain on all issues, another person's rights end where mine begin. So even if we take as fact that a fetus is a person, to me it still wouldn't justify banning abortion."

Bad choice of words. That comment alone means a person can "abort" their 2 week old baby if in that person's best interests since the baby's rights end where yours begins.

Posted By: Shawn S Lealos

"It's when someone chooses to bring a child into the world that they have to take responsibility for them."

My very next sentence was sort of an important one. We don't let people renege on contracts if it suits them. We preserve free will to enter a contract or not, but as a civilization we hold people to their commitments once they make them. Once your name is on the birth certificate as a parent, you assume certain legal obligations. You have waived your right to only provide for yourself, but no one has forced you to do so.


Posted By: Jason Douglas (Registered)  on October 30, 2009 at 12:10 PM

 
 
For the most part I agree with the article written. I totally understand the hairplugg,plastic surgery comparison.

At the end of the day it is a person decision. How does it look for me to let a group of individuals make a decision for me that have never met me or might not ever in life.

I believe abortion are wrong but that does not mean I can take away the right for a person to freely make a decision about their own life. One thing I hate about our country is that we are quick to throw around how we are the land of the free blah blah and we have people that live here that have a problem with everything another person does. If you do not agree with another persons action with THEIR life then dont. Because everything you are doing someone else doesnt agree with.

They are not taking up precious time and money to ban people from having all these surgeries that they become addicted to. Are they no!


Posted By: pmoore (Guest)  on November 02, 2009 at 06:05 PM

 
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