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 411mania » Politics » Blog Entry
The Coming Show Trial of Khalid Sheikh Mohammed
Posted by Enrique on 11.18.2009





Last week, Attorney General Eric Holder made the controversial announcement that suspected 9/11 plotter Khalid Sheikh Mohammed would be prosecuted in U.S. criminal court for his alleged crimes against humanity. Conservative critics of President Barack Obama immediately fretted KSM may get off on a "technicality" and advocated military tribunals as a preferable method for adjudicating the accused terrorists. Trying to have it both ways, the Obama administration will in fact employ military commissions for various other Guantanamo detainees, including accused U.S.S. Cole bomber Abd al-Rahim al-Nashiri.

Well, that doesn't seem fair, does it? One clique of accused terrorists gets a civil trial and the other gets Nuremberg – that simply will not do. Former president Bush was properly criticized for holding accused terrorists without due process, and now Obama wants to fix the problem by instituting show trials? As they say on Fark, you're doing it wrong.

The story so far…


Spinal failure

Once and future presidential candidate Mike Huckabee was in Orlando recently to promote his new treacly, presumably self-serving Christmas book. While he was there, he stopped to give an interview to a local affiliate in which he opined on the political implications of Holder's KSM decision:

"Well, I think it's absurd, and I think the Obama administration will be as much on trail as Khalid Sheikh Mohammed," said Huckabee.

He says the terror suspects will use their trials as a platform to spout anti-American venom.

"And God help us if they get off on a technicality because of the way the evidence was gathered," said Huckabee. "I would tell you not only is the Obama administration finished, I think the Democratic Party is finished."
Beware the calamitous "technicality!" These blasted legal technicalities are just dreadful, especially when they threaten to unleash violent terrorists and probably sexual predators on us all, particularly our children. Won't someone think of the children? DAMN YOU, TECHNICALITIES!

Ahem. As you may be aware, the U.S. crime rate has been steadily declining for almost 20 years now. At the same time, America has the highest incarceration rate in the whole damn world. And as I wrote last week, the criminal justice system is significantly biased in favor of the state. It would appear any fear of technicalities preventing convictions is unfounded and just a bit silly.

On the other hand, Huckabee's reduction of Holder's decision to petty political calculus isn't without merit. Why else would Holder try some Gitmo detainees via military commissions and others in civilian court? At his press conference announcing his decision, Holder admitted the conviction of KSM and his collaborators in criminal court was a foregone conclusion:

"I've looked at the evidence. I've considered the problems that these cases present. And I am quite confident that we're going to be successful in the prosecution efforts," he told reporters.

"If I was concerned about the forum not leading to a positive result or if I had a concern – a different concern, you know, we would perhaps be in a different place," he continued. "But the reality is – and I want to be as assuring as I can – that based on all of my experience and based on all of the recommendations and the great work and the research that has been done, that I am quite confident that the outcomes in these cases will be successful ones."
When Holder says, "we would perhaps be in a different place" if he wasn't certain KSM would be convicted in criminal court, the implication is the proceedings against KSM and his colleagues will be show trials reminiscent of the worst totalitarian regimes. Presumably, Holder is relying on KSM's longstanding reputation as a braggart – he's proud to have participated in the 9/11 attacks and is expected to confess his culpability. Otherwise, KSM would be facing military commissions along with al-Nashiri.

Of course, KSM might be persuaded to change his mind and withhold a confession. If he were, he would have several worthwhile strategies at his disposal. Writing at Foxnews.com, conservative lawyer Ken Klukowski lists six arguments he'd make if he were KSM's attorney:

1. That his Fourth Amendment rights were violated by letters and conversations that the government intercepted without a search warrant.

2. That his Fifth Amendment rights against self-incrimination were violated if the government attempts to use statements made before he was read his Miranda rights or after he was waterboarded (since the Obama administration calls it torture).

3. That his Sixth Amendment rights were violated by not providing a speedy trial, that the Speedy Trial Act (a federal statute) has also been violated, and that he has been denied adequate legal counsel.

4. I would also say he cannot get a fair trial in New York and move for change of venue.

5. I would challenge the admissibility of any evidence that was unsecured even for an hour, challenge the authenticity of any offered evidence, insist on his Sixth Amendment right to confront every witness against him, including the capturing officers, interrogators, guards, transport personnel, and whoever else I can think of.

6. I would raise objections of circumstantial evidence, hearsay, the witnesses ' integrity, and every other conceivable objection to the evidence and every procedural step.
I think most of us would agree the Fourth, Fifth, and Sixth Amendments aren't technicalities. Given that we know KSM was waterboarded, it seems obvious his constitutional rights were violated. Why Holder would extend those constitutional rights to accused war criminals who aren't U.S. citizens in the first place is baffling. Given the fact KSM has exhibited signs of mental instability, we don't even know if his confessions are genuine. He may well be exaggerating his role in 9/11 out of a perverse sense of megalomania or a desire to be revered as a martyr. Holder seems pretty damn sure of himself, but I bet Bill Belichick was pretty damn sure he could convert that fourth-and-two against the Colts. I have very little faith when a government official pursues a bizarre policy and then says, "trust me."

I'm not in favor of detaining suspected terrorists at Guantanamo indefinitely without due process, regardless of whether or not they're citizens. Based on his campaign rhetoric, and his original pledge to close Gitmo, President Obama seemed to agree with that position. However, using different venues to conduct trials of separate groups of accused terrorists based on how likely a conviction is makes a farce of due process. In what appears to be a recurring theme, Obama has taken a bad Bush policy and somehow made it even worse. Talk about change you can't believe.

Based on all available evidence, the 9/11 attacks were orchestrated by a foreign organization as an act of war. They are analogous to Pearl Harbor, not Oklahoma City. As such, military tribunals would be a perfectly appropriate venue for rendering judgment on the alleged perpetrators. The Democrat-controlled Congress reformed the Bush-era Military Commissions Act, and Obama signed it just three weeks ago. There are serious concerns about the fairness of military tribunals, and those should be continuously debated. But that doesn't change the fact 9/11 was a war crime, and should be treated as such under a martial, not civil, system of justice.

And incidentally, could someone please tell Obama part of due process is not proclaiming someone will be put to death before the trial has even begun? It's enough to make you wish we had a more qualified, less amateurish chief executive.


C'mon, like she'd be any worse


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Comments (43)

 
this will be a disaster. how do you put someone on a civilian trial when he was captured by military? Soldiers are not concerned with collecting evidence, chain of custody, miranda right, etc. Nor should they be. The administration has already publically stated that no matter the outcome, KSM will not be set free. So what happens is he is found not guilty, or does get the case thrown out on a technicality?

A military tribunal is the best way and the safest alternative to protect american lives during the trial. all the necessary security measures are already in place and there is no real need to move them to new york.

this whole thing will quickly devolve into american and bush bashing.


Posted By: dan (Guest)  on November 18, 2009 at 08:31 PM

 
 
Senator Linsey Graham tourched Holder today about this subject. The attorney general is a idiot and all this is about is smearing the Bush administration.

Posted By: Guest#5196 (Guest)  on November 18, 2009 at 08:56 PM

 
 
Guess we can't be too suprised that the guy who writes weekly columns crying about the erosion of civil liberties would cry about KSM given civil liberties.

BTW, if you're going to say that 9/11 was a war crime, then admit that OKC was a war crime. Remind me, oh bright one, did McVeigh blow that building up because of the decor, OR was it because he was making a statement against what he saw was a tyrannical government under the influence of the Turner Diaries?


Posted By: Loverboy (Guest)  on November 18, 2009 at 09:15 PM

 
 
Yes Sarah fucking Palin would be so much better.

Get the fuck out.


Posted By: Guest#1629 (Guest)  on November 18, 2009 at 09:32 PM

 
 
Oh, the way my sentence reads it looks like the government was under the influence of the Turner Diaries. Didn't mean that.

Posted By: Loverboy (Guest)  on November 18, 2009 at 10:05 PM

 
 
BTW, if you're going to say that 9/11 was a war crime, then admit that OKC was a war crime

Posted By: Loverboy (Guest) on November 18, 2009 at 09:15 PM

Okay, OKC was a war crime - perpetrated by a member of a world-wide terrorist organization with a total of 1 member. Said member being an American citizen captured on American soil. Yeah dude, same thing. Partisan idiot!


Posted By: Guest#8633 (Guest)  on November 18, 2009 at 11:01 PM

 
 
BTW, if you're going to say that 9/11 was a war crime, then admit that OKC was a war crime.

Posted By: Loverboy (Guest) on November 18, 2009 at 09:15 PM

John Stallone aside, it isn't a "war" when one of the sides involved consists of a single person.


Posted By: Guest#8174 (Guest)  on November 19, 2009 at 01:24 AM

 
 
"Okay, OKC was a war crime - perpetrated by a member of a world-wide terrorist organization with a total of 1 member. Said member being an American citizen captured on American soil. Yeah dude, same thing. Partisan idiot!"

Partisan idiot, hmm? Yeah, I guess us Constitution lovers are blinded our partisan leanings.

No. 1 - McVeigh was assisted by Terry Nichols and Michael Fortier and his wife.

No. 2 - Numbers don't matter. It doesn't matter if someone belongs to an organization of 10,000 or 10; McVeigh committed a crime against America. It was a terrorist attack. His citizenship does not matter, either.

No. 3 - Do you know the name "Mahmud Abouhalima"? He was captured in Egypt and brought to the U.S. where he was tried in a court. Also, at last check, Zacarias Moussaoui was not an American citizen. Why were these dangerous criminals given lawyers(!) and trials in front of grand juries? And why was there no fuss back then?

I bet I know. There's a Democrat as president, so naturally the rightwing must poop their pants in fear and pretend that this is thing with KSM is unprecedented. Heck even Rudy Guiliani was backslapping the crazy Constitution thing, but that was before he could score political points.


Posted By: Loverboy (Guest)  on November 19, 2009 at 01:32 AM

 
 
Becuase it is unprecendented, and holder basically got pwned by graham when he asked, "Tell me when was the last time a enemy comabantant was tried in civilan court", the answer is it never happened, and holder he could've tried these guys in miltary tribunals, becuase uh, hello, the pentagon was also attacked on 9/11, a miltitary target, which is why, on the same day holder announced that ksm and 4 othere would be tried in civilan court, the alleged perpeatrtators of the USS Cole attack, were guess what, going to be tried in miltary tribunals, the reason, is because the cole was a miltary target, and oh by the way yes we have got convictions of terrorists, but most of them weren't for the origanl charges, and remember mossaui tied up the courts for 4 years before getting convicted, and oh yeah lynn stewart, who represented the first wtc attacker, she too was convicted of conspiring against the us govt, when she was passing notes, and she faces jail time. Look these trials will just want ksm wants, and also the taxpayer is going to pay through the nose, as fedreal marshalls in new york say they need at least 75 million to make sure the facilties are safe, and who says ksm won't be like mossaoui and represent himself

Posted By: Coby Preimesberger (Guest)  on November 19, 2009 at 02:17 AM

 
 
Loverboy,

The right did raise quite a fuss about Moussaoui, who's trial turned out to be a nightmare, and the 1993 WTC bombing trials resulted in bin Laden getting a lot of information about our intelligence operations he wouldn't have otherwise gotten.

Bottom line is that the Military Commission system is legal and KSM wanted to plead guilty before Obama ordered his trial stopped.

Without Holder and Obama interfering, he'd already be burning in hell. Now we are giving him a great big public platform and access to classified info.


Posted By: Chris Connolly (Guest)  on November 19, 2009 at 02:21 AM

 
 
They are not classified as prisoners of war. The Bush administration didn't want to give them the rights that a POW would have under the Geneva Convention. No, these guys were classified as "Enemy Combatants", a term arbitrarily made up to completely exclude them from Constitutional and Geneva Convention protection. This trial is the only option that the current administration has in dealing with them. They can't just execute them, they can't let them go, and they can't keep them in prison any longer.

Obama got handed a giant bag of shit on this one, which is pretty much standard about now. It's pretty convenient that we get to blame him when shit goes south now, too, which has also become standard.


Posted By: Mike (Guest)  on November 19, 2009 at 02:40 AM

 
 
If Obama would of said that he would bring the 9/11 terrorist back to NEW YORK CITY to trial him.... he would of lost the election. Big time. So disrespectful to everyone that died on 9/11. This is nothing more than a political war against the Bush policy and the victims are every American citizen that realizes this a beyond ridiculous and insulting. The rest are still victims but too stupid to realize it.

If Obama was up for reelection tomorrow... he would fail. I hope he fails. I hope Barrack Hussan Obama, MmMm Mmm Mmm, FAILS.


Posted By: Rehab (Guest)  on November 19, 2009 at 03:08 AM

 
 
In the end the waste of time will only cost millions of dollars in security for a state of New York already in the red and give rival news organizations weeks of headlines. This is a show and one not needed. Once again Obama runs America the way he thinks the rest of the world wants to see it instead of the way America does. Oh well on the bright side this whole debacle of leadership might be over in alittle over 3 years. Fingers crossed

Posted By: Guest (Guest)  on November 19, 2009 at 04:06 AM

 
 
Who cares about the crooked legal system of this country? Just hang the bastard and be done with it.

Posted By: AG Awesome (Guest)  on November 19, 2009 at 06:26 AM

 
 
Asked if he understood why some people were offended by trying the men in U.S. courts, he replied: "I don't think it will be offensive at all when he's convicted and when the death penalty is applied to him."

He then backtracked, saying, "What I said was people will not be offended if that's outcome. I'm not prejudging" them.

I have to agree with Enrique on all counts here. While Republican "security concerns" are nothing but more fear mongering, choosing legal avenues case by case, based on the likelihood of conviction makes a mockery of the entire legal process and actually makes us look even worse.

Remember the two journalists North Korea convicted of "grave crimes" and what a sham it was to the rest of the world. Our system will be viewed the same way. Can he appeal and stall his sentence for a decade once convicted? This spectacle will showcase how dysfunctional our system is. If from day one they would have used military tribunals without all the secrecy, we would still have a shred of credibility. But that would have meant no torture, so it was off the table. This is the problem with selective barbarism. You can't waterboard confessions, hold people indefinitely without counsel until the deck is stacked against them, then claim to be about due process during a trial that only takes place because conviction is assured.

Dan makes a great point about about why military detainees shouldn't be tried in civilian courts. And again, had the Geneva Conventions been followed at Gitmo, nobody would have a problem with military tribunals right now. To that extent the farce before us today is the fault of the current AND previous administrations.

"In what appears to be a recurring theme, Obama has taken a bad Bush policy and somehow made it even worse. Talk about change you can't believe."

Too true, and it's why I get annoyed at the "give Obama more time" crowd.


Posted By: Jason Douglas (Registered)  on November 19, 2009 at 10:23 AM

 
 
Although I don't particuarly like him, and didn't vote for him I am always fair with Obama and his decisions. This however is the worst decision ever made by a sitting American President. There is no upside to be had, only tremendous downside. We all need to hope for the best case scenario of speedy trial, conviction and execution. Also we all must be prepared though for the very real possibility of worst case scenarios which are numerous and catastrophic. This ridiculous decision could very well lead to another attack on our soil. God forbid he gets off, in which case this country will burn.
I pray this doesn't turn into another OJ like fiasco. "If the turban doesn't fit, then you must aquit". That was only half joking, we all know that's there's lots of slimy, bottom-feeding, win at all costs, uber leftists lawyers out there drooling at the chance to represent ol' sheiky. Hope for the best, brace for the worst.

Btw- Citenship not withstanding, all the other men mentioned by other commenters were NOT captured on the battlefield by the military. With that said by definition none of them could be tried by military tribunals. The reverse has also always held true, until now. The administration just set a very dangerous, and very dimwitted precedent.


Posted By: gbh1978 (Guest)  on November 19, 2009 at 11:10 AM

 
 
1 million terrorists later and clowns still bring up McVeigh!!! WOW

Posted By: dan man (Guest)  on November 19, 2009 at 11:24 AM

 
 
One more thing, Sheiky and his Sheikettes already agreed to plead guilty and accept the death penalty before a military tribunal. That is before Obama and Holder yanked the rug out. Just thought I'd add that to the simmering pot of stew cooking here.

Posted By: gbh1978 (Guest)  on November 19, 2009 at 11:42 AM

 
 
"Becuase it is unprecendented, and holder basically got pwned by graham when he asked, "Tell me when was the last time a enemy comabantant was tried in civilan court"

I guess Moussaoui was not an enemy combatant tried in court. Which brings us to Chris Connolly, who still can't get anything right:

"The right did raise quite a fuss about Moussaoui, who's trial turned out to be a nightmare, and the 1993 WTC bombing trials resulted in bin Laden getting a lot of information about our intelligence operations he wouldn't have otherwise gotten."

The right did not make a fuss about the Moussaoui. Also, try providing some evidence of your last claim.


Posted By: Loverboy (Guest)  on November 19, 2009 at 11:49 AM

 
 
"Holder seems pretty damn sure of himself, but I bet Bill Belichick was pretty damn sure he could convert that fourth-and-two against the Colts. "

You sir, get the win. :)

BTW - isn't a-Nashiri considered a different situation as he attacked a military "base", nit a civilian center?


Posted By: J. Alexander Mitchell (Registered)  on November 19, 2009 at 11:56 AM

 
 
The reason they are classified as enemy combatants rather than POW's is because they are different than soldiers in a regular war, the Geneva Convention does not apply. Geneva only applies to soldiers in clearly identified uniforms that are identified with a hostile power. All of these men hid behind civilian populations and never doaned a uniform, as well they used terrorist tactics aimed specifically against civilian and diplomatic targets against a nation that was not in open combat with their home nations at the time.

Big difference, thus enemy combatant rather than soldier.


Posted By: peepshow26 (Guest)  on November 19, 2009 at 12:25 PM

 
 
"This is a show and one not needed. Once again Obama runs America the way he thinks the rest of the world wants to see it instead of the way America does."

Yeah, why do we need the Constitution anyway? That's what I loved about George Bush. He didn't have time for the Constitution.


Posted By: Loverboy (Guest)  on November 19, 2009 at 12:54 PM

 
 
Although I don't particuarly like him, and didn't vote for him I am always fair with Obama and his decisions. This however is the worst decision ever made by a sitting American President.

Posted By: gbh1978 (Guest) on November 19, 2009 at 11:10 AM

You are either ignorant of history over the past 100 years, or you are lying in your claim to be fair of Obama's decisions.

How is this worse than The Bay of Pigs? Iran-Contra? Watergate? Woodrow Wilson's hand in the Treaty of Versailes?

Why dont you try actually studying some history instead of just reguritating what you heard this morning on FOX News like an arm-chair political analyst?


Posted By: Guest#4510 (Guest)  on November 19, 2009 at 02:24 PM

 
 
If Obama would of said that he would bring the 9/11 terrorist back to NEW YORK CITY to trial him.... he would of lost the election. Big time. So disrespectful to everyone that died on 9/11. This is nothing more than a political war against the Bush policy and the victims are every American citizen that realizes this a beyond ridiculous and insulting. The rest are still victims but too stupid to realize it.

If Obama was up for reelection tomorrow... he would fail. I hope he fails. I hope Barrack Hussan Obama, MmMm Mmm Mmm, FAILS.

Posted By: Rehab (Guest) on November 19, 2009 at 03:08 AM

I love how you appoint me as an unaware victim of being insulted by the stupidity of the man's decision WITHOUT explaining WHY it is disrespectful. I find it FITTING that the man be tried in the city where he perpetrated the act.

Furthermore, you have NOTHING to support your BASELESS assumption that Obama announcing such a decision would have cost him the election. No studies, no surveys, just baseless talking points of the sort bandied about on 'Fox n Friends'.


Posted By: Guest#7311 (Guest)  on November 19, 2009 at 02:30 PM

 
 
which one is the guy who in his arrest looked like Ron Jeremy?

Posted By: Bryan Jones (Guest)  on November 19, 2009 at 04:01 PM

 
 
Its calleed an opinion brain surgeon, and I don't watch Fox News. All of the examples you listed do not even begin to approach this one in terms of blithering ididocy. Once you stop sucking your thumb you might learn the difference between memorizing events and understanding the implications of those events. There is absolutely no logical basis for this decision nor is there any possible upside to it. So why don't you put down your transformers, take off your Obama tshirt and spend a little time in the real world.

Posted By: gbh1978 (Guest)  on November 19, 2009 at 04:33 PM

 
 
The reason they are classified as enemy combatants rather than POW's is because they are different than soldiers in a regular war, the Geneva Convention does not apply. Geneva only applies to soldiers in clearly identified uniforms that are identified with a hostile power. All of these men hid behind civilian populations and never doaned a uniform, as well they used terrorist tactics aimed specifically against civilian and diplomatic targets against a nation that was not in open combat with their home nations at the time.

Big difference, thus enemy combatant rather than soldier.

Posted By: peepshow26 (Guest) on November 19, 2009 at 12:25 PM

Bush era semantics have been wholly rejected by the rest of the civilized world. As I wrote, your line of reasoning sounds no different to the international community than the ramblings of Mahmoud Ahmadinejad or Kim Jong-il. No one has reason to trust a nation that makes up a new status for detainees and holds them in legal limbo. Such behavior depicts us as a danger to the rest of the world, which yields the obvious result: more troops and bombs are needed to protect us from the ramifications of our own failed policies.


Posted By: Jason Douglas (Registered)  on November 19, 2009 at 05:03 PM

 
 
Before I start, dude I didn't insult you, so why the attack mode?

Moussaoui's trial was roundly criticized for being turned into a circus and was one of the reasons the military commissions were put into effect.

As for the 1993 WTC bombing trials, go read anything Andy McCarthy over at National Review Online has written on the subject. He was one of the lead prosecutors on those cases and yesterday on the NRO blog tore Holder's testimony to pieces. He's written before about how information given to the defendants was later found in 2005 in an AQ safehouse. That's not a claim, that is a fact.

So how about you do some damn research on your own before you try to be a keyboard badass?


Posted By: Chris Connolly (Guest)  on November 19, 2009 at 05:34 PM

 
 
Soldiers are not concerned with collecting evidence, chain of custody, miranda right, etc. Nor should they be.
--
I agree, soldiers should shoot first, ask questions later just like they've been trained to do by their monkey leaders for centuries now. /rolls eyes/


Posted By: 16s (Guest)  on November 19, 2009 at 05:56 PM

 
 
KSM committed a crime. calling it an act of war confers upon his actions a legitimacy that they do not deserve. Why is it insulting to bring the 9/11 conspirators to New York? The crime was committed in New York, shouldn't the people of New York be allowed to dispense justice? KSM is just a dirty scum sucking criminal, and should be tried as such.

Posted By: black hole of charisma (Guest)  on November 19, 2009 at 06:14 PM

 
 
"So how about you do some damn research on your own before you try to be a keyboard badass? "

The burden of proof does not fall on me to provide examples of why the '93 WTC bombing led to 9/11. You claimed it; you back it up.


Posted By: Loverboy (Guest)  on November 19, 2009 at 09:47 PM

 
 
First off, KSM is a terrorist, not a criminal. He and his organization declared war on us, and should be subjected to the laws of war.

Jason, the term "unlawful combatant" has been around since the Civil War. Just because it hasn't been in the Geneva Convention doesn't mean that Bush made it up on the fly.

If we want to get really historical in a legal sense, then we should treat them like pirates used to get treated. Back then, since they were considered as people who willfully operated outside of any legal boundsand with complete disregard for any societal norms, they just killed them when they found them.


Posted By: Chris Connolly (Guest)  on November 19, 2009 at 10:05 PM

 
 
I never claimed that the '93 WTC bombing trials led to 9/11, even though they were both AQ attacks. All I said was that because of the way discovery works in civilian courts, the defendants were able to funnel information to the AQ leadership, like who the US was keeping an eye on. The info gleaned from those trials didn't lead to 9/11, but it sure as hell didn't make it easier to stop AQ.

But if you want to go there, Bin Laden said that our pullout of Somalia and non-military treatment of the '93 bombing made him a lot bolder with his planning, leading to things like the Cole bombing and 9/11.

If anything, ignoring that war was declared on us for 8 years led to 9/11. And I'll put that on both sides of the aisle, since Clinton treated terrorism as a criminal matter and the GOP largely went along with it.


Posted By: Chris Connolly (Guest)  on November 19, 2009 at 10:42 PM

 
 
@blackhole and anyone else sensible
I'm from NJ just outside NYC. I was on the Jersey Turnpike on 9/11. I watched the towers attacked from my car window. I persoally know both some who lost loved ones as well as others who searched the rubble and dealt with the aftermath. Seeing it in person in itself is a life altering experience.

The emotions of that morning do not need to be revisited. Myself and the great majority of people closet to ground zero are displeased with the decision. Every poll I've seen in the local and NYC media speaks for my truth.

This trial only stands to stir up terrible memories and possibly create a new nightmare for the area. KSM should not be put front and center, the spectacle created could realisticly inspire a new attack. Add that to the outrageous security costs and disruption of every day life, you can see why this trial is so unpopular and insulting.

As far as who should dispense the justice, that is not the issue. The issue is that justice is served period. KSM already agreed to plead guilty at a tribunal and face the death penalty. Deciding to forgoe that in favor of a pointless show trial only opens the door for possible injustice.

I can keep going, pointing out things such as miranda issues, other potential loopholes, giving terror a soapbox, and other possible problems such as the chance of evidence suppression. I feel the point has been made though. If some don't agree with these views that's fine, but I don't see the need the need to denigrate or minimize those who don't agree. I and many others don't see any logical, legal or moral reason for this decision and that viewpoint should be respected.


Posted By: gbh1978 (Guest)  on November 19, 2009 at 11:08 PM

 
 
All of the examples you listed do not even begin to approach this one in terms of blithering ididocy. Once you stop sucking your thumb you might learn the difference between memorizing events and understanding the implications of those events.

Posted By: gbh1978 (Guest) on November 19, 2009 at 04:33 PM

Implications? Lets see..

1) President Wilson failing to help reach a compromise on the Treaty of Versais led directly to the conditions which caused WWII, which caused the Cold War, which caused..

2) President Kennedy's decision to approve the Bay of Pigs invasion led directly to the Cuban Missle Crisis, which almost led to the destruction of humanity.

3) Nixon's involvement in Watergate led to his impeachment, which in turn eroded American support in Vietnam and allowed the slaughter of millions in Cambodia.

Are those serious implications? Evidentially not when compared to the threat of giving a terrorist a soapbox, and the increased cost of security.

But hey, you keep bringing those 'transformers' and 'Obama' insults, I'll keep bringing historical facts.


Posted By: CMS (Guest)  on November 20, 2009 at 02:34 AM

 
 
Firstly I'm not the one who started with the insults, I simply responded in kind. Secondly I'll give credit where its due, you provided good examples and explanations. While histories hindsight can certainly make the claim that those decisions were bad ones, they still need to be placed in context.
Wilsons decision certainly set in motion a chain of awful events without question. That decision was made perhaps hastily to end the greatest war the world had ever seen. Also the future implications of that were much less easily predictable than that of Obamas.
The Bay of Pigs fiasco in many ways was a lose/lose situation. At the time the thought of Russian Nuclear Missies a stones throw from our shores was a situation that needed to be remedied. Has hindsight shown the Bay of Pigs to be a bad decision? That case can certainly be made but at least there was some logical basis for it. Any shred of of a logical reason cannot be found in Obamas decision.
As for Watergate, that was more an abuse of power as opposed to a policy decision. You are correct in saying that it led to an erosion of confidence but that that ball was put in motion long before. Watergate was more the very large straw that broke the camels back. Much like Nixon, Obama has put his ego and personal agenda ahead of all else. Common sense, consequences, and the will of the people be damned.
The reason I called this the worst decision ever made by a president are simple. There is no good that can come of it, only bad. It was made in defiance of the will of the people. The writing of potential calamity is clearly written on the future wall, no crystal ball needed. Perhaps more than anything though is the fact that there is no logical or practical reason for it, so in turn there is no reason to assume the risk and consequences that are too come.


Posted By: gbh1978 (Guest)  on November 20, 2009 at 12:27 PM

 
 
The reason I called this the worst decision ever made by a president are simple. There is no good that can come of it, only bad. It was made in defiance of the will of the people. The writing of potential calamity is clearly written on the future wall, no crystal ball needed.

Posted By: gbh1978 (Guest) on November 20, 2009 at 12:27 PM

Thank you for clarifying your criteria. I'm sure you'll be shocked to learn that I dont agree with it.

I focus my assessment of this subject on the results, not the difficulty of clairvoyance or the potential for good or bad, just the results.

IF KSM gets off on a technicality, then we can start assessing where the decision would rank. IF terrorists attack NYC and release a tape explicity stating "we attacked America not because of your religion or your imperialism, but because your president chose a civil trial over a military tribunal", THEN I'll agree with you. Until then..

1) If KSM is found guilty as charged and executed, is that not a good thing?

2) How do potential threats, which are yet to materialize, outweigh the very real ramifications I listed previously?

2a) In the case of the threat of terrorist attack, in their own minds, our enemies have plenty of reasons to attack America, and perhaps NYC. If the trial were held in Kalamazoo, and terrorists attacked NYC, would that be the president's fault?

3) The US had no reason to believe nuclear arms were in Cuba in the lead up to the Bay of Pigs. Castro was receiving only monetary assistance from the Soviet Union prior to the invasion.

5) Why wouldn't Clinton's failure to obtain Bin Laden when the Saudis offered him up outweigh this decision?

6) Not to mention Carter/Regan's involvement if Afghanistan, followed up by abandoning Afghanistan?


Posted By: CMS (Guest)  on November 20, 2009 at 02:31 PM

 
 
Ill give you the Clinton decision not to grab Bin Laden when we had the chance, that atomic turd ranks right up there. I can list tons of examples too, like Bush's lack of response post Katrina, anything from the Pierce, Johnson and Grant administrations, Carters handling of the Iranian hostage crisis and countless others.

The fact remains though that there is absolutely no practical, logical, legal, or moral reasoning to support this decision. Also in many of less stellar moves made by our chief executives the outcomes of those decisions was not so predictable and there was some sort of basis for them. This decision does not pass any sort of litmus test. There is no basis for it, no logical reason, no positive outcome that could not have been had through easier means, with easily predictable and numerous negative results.

You want to focus on the outcome, rather than the process. By that logic any decision ever made is good one until proven otherwise. Ill focus on the process, by which negative results can be prevented BEFORE they happen. If boneheaded choices aren't made in the first place the negative results become a moot point.

BTW- You're too bright too equate NYC to Kalamazoo. NYC has tremendous strategic and symbolic value as a target for terror. When you add that to this ridiculous trial, the possibility of attack is very real. I'm sure Kalamazoo is lovely, but NYC is NYC. There is zero comparison between the two when it comes to potential terror strikes.


Posted By: gbh1978 (Guest)  on November 20, 2009 at 04:25 PM

 
 
A simple analogy if I may... There's 2 hills equal in steepness and peril. One hill is littered with broken glass, banana peels and landmines, the other pristine. Which one are you gonna ride your bike down?

Now you may very well be able to ride down the hill with extra obstructions unscathed and break your neck on the pristine one. But which one is a better choice at the time? You can't judge this decision based on results that haven't happened yet, it must be judged by the process and logic by which the choice was made. Obama just began the ride down the wrong damned hill.


Posted By: gbh1978 (Guest)  on November 20, 2009 at 04:54 PM

 
 
My problem with the decision to have a civilian trial in NYC is not the fact that its a civilian trial, but the fact that its held in NYC.

No one with a right mind could actually think that KSM will get a fair trial in New York, or anywhere in the United States.


Posted By: Jlevysan (Guest)  on November 20, 2009 at 06:12 PM

 
 
This trial is going to be far from fair. Even if he gets acquitted, there is no way he's getting released. It's all a show...

Posted By: Chris Connolly (Guest)  on November 20, 2009 at 08:54 PM

 
 
"@blackhole and anyone else sensible
I'm from NJ just outside NYC. I was on the Jersey Turnpike on 9/11. I watched the towers attacked from my car window. I persoally know both some who lost loved ones as well as others who searched the rubble and dealt with the aftermath. Seeing it in person in itself is a life altering experience."

I, too, am from Jersey. My father worked at the WTC. I was in college at the time, going absolutely batshit crazy because I couldn't get a hold of anyone on the phone to find out if he was ok. He was OK, but a high school friend of mine's father was not so lucky.

Thing is, we could have a pissing contest over who was more personally affected by 9/11, or we could remember a few things. Terrorists ARE just criminals. They tend to commit particularly horrible crimes, but they are criminals nonetheless. I don't care if they're right or left wing nutjobs who blow up gov't buildings or if they're Islamic crazies who think they're getting 72 virgins. Their motives make absolutely no difference to me.

Also, New Yorkers are the toughest people in the world (except of course for Jerseyans). Are you seriously telling me that New Yorkers are gonna let somebody else accuse, convict and punish this guy. Like I said in my first post, the crime was committed against the people of New York and they have the RIGHT to dispense justice. Painful memories? How about every time I'm coming in on the Ferry from Jersey City and the WTC ain't there no more? Are you telling me that this piece of shit can drudge up any more memories than that?

And I'll tell you exactly what KSM'll say with his "platform." Great Satan-blahbitty blahbitty blah-who gives a shit? Nothing we haven't heard before, and quite frankly, it'll make it all the more satisfying when they ultimately stick the needle in his arm.


Posted By: black hole of charisma (Guest)  on November 21, 2009 at 12:21 AM

 
 
And I'll tell you exactly what KSM'll say with his "platform." Great Satan-blahbitty blahbitty blah-who gives a shit? Nothing we haven't heard before, and quite frankly, it'll make it all the more satisfying when they ultimately stick the needle in his arm.

Posted By: black hole of charisma (Guest) on November 21, 2009 at 12:21 AM

Pretty much sums up my feelings.


Posted By: Guest#8487 (Guest)  on November 21, 2009 at 10:24 AM

 
STAY CURRENT




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