The Politics of Other People’s Children
Posted by Enrique on 11.25.2009
Ray of sunshine...
Happy Thanksgiving, dear readers. With the holidays in mind, I didn't want to bore you with my usual libertarianish navel-gazing vociferation on some current event, nor did I want to bore you with The Tale of Ahmed al-Ulululu, Islamist Thanksgiving Turkey as I've done the past two Thanksgivings. It hasn't aged as well as I'd hoped (although longtime readers may still find it sort of amusing, so feel free to recapture the magic of the first time you read it here). So I thought we'd do something a little more lighthearted this week, because I'm always trying to think up new ways of boring you. No need to thank me.
As I often say, I'm not blessed with children. Several of my friends have kids, and while they're all charming in their own ways, I can't help but notice that parenthood changes people. In some cases, it turns them into complete idiots. For our story this week, let's examine the (mostly) unspoken conflict between parents and non-parents that festers just beneath the surface of modern social discourse.
The story so far…
I have a socially inappropriate admission to make: I have no sympathy for the trials and tribulations of parenthood. You couldn't sleep last night because your newborn was crying every hour? Don't come crying to me. You don't have free time anymore? Yeah, that sucks, sorry. You're constantly gripped with feelings of inadequacy and fear you're not a good parent? Get over it. You're worried that because your five-year-old son once put on his sister's clothes he's gay for life? Well, yeah, he's probably a queen. And it's your fault, dad. Your fault.
One pet peeve I have is when I see a news story about some raunchy act or utterance of foul language on television that expresses concern about its impact on America's children. The latest contribution to this genre involves a recent performance by erstwhile "American Idol" contestant Adam Lambert during ABC's broadcast of the American Music Awards. I'm not familiar with Lambert or the AMA awards, as my personal musical tastes are highly nuanced. According to the New York Post, Lambert's stage show is fairly risqué: "The 'American Idol' runner-up pelvic-thrusted his way through the four-minute, S&M-themed routine, taking time out from singing to grope a female dancer, kiss a male musician and, most shockingly, shove a male dancer's face into his crotch, in an act that simulated fellatio."
I can't say any of that shocks me. Anyone who has lived a significant portion of their life with widely available internet porn can't be bothered by a little simulated homosexual fellatio. As far as I'm concerned, oral sex is a one of life's rare joys. It's not possible for me to be offended by it, but apparently many people, particularly people with kids, can be very offended by it indeed. The headline at conservative web site Big Hollywood about the Lambert affair is headlined, "ABC's AMA Awards: Some ‘Simulated Fellatio' For the Kids." The opening sentence of the post is, "We're all for freedom of expression and all that, but the airwaves are public and parents have a right to know what they're sitting their children down to watch."
Oh, please. Those of us without children have heard/read some form of this complaint for bloody ages. I don't mean to be obvious, but it's almost always unjustified and just a bit silly. Parents made a choice to be fruitful and multiply, and part of that choice means their children will be exposed to dirty jokes, rude language, and simulated sex acts on television, not to mention the internet. Public service announcement for all parents: Everything on television is for adults. Even those kids channels on cable/satellite probably contain some subversive, innocence-compromising content. Nothing is safe. If you want to prevent your kids being exposed to trash on TV, don't let them watch television. Ever. If they just watch DVD's or play video games you've already approved of, you'll never have to worry about the wholesomeness of television programming again. Problem solved.
Same with the internet. As much as you might want to call up YouTube and let your offspring while away the hours watching Super Mario videos while you take a mental health break, the fact is within a few minutes he'll be looking at this:
Peach tart
And then you'll have to come up with a way to explain the obvious sexual content on the spot without accidentally letting your kindergartener in on The Big Secret, and no matter what you say you'll be wracked with guilt that you screwed it up somehow. The only way your child can safely surf the internet is with you watching over his/her shoulder the entire time. Having children means you can never have free time again. That's the path you chose.
One person who apparently can't deal with the path she chose is named Pamela Root. Last month, she was kicked off a Southwest Airlines flight because her two-year-old wouldn't shut up. Southwest ended up apologizing to Root, refunded the cost of the flight, and gave her a $300 travel voucher. But apparently, that wasn't enough:
Root says she was confident Adam's screams of "Go! Plane! Go!" and "I want Daddy!" would subside after the plane took off Monday in Amarillo, Texas.
The 38-year-old mom said she hoped to be compensated for the portable crib and diapers she had to buy for the extra night away from home.
As John Stossel says, give me a break. This bitch wants Southwest to pay for the diapers, too? What high-handed pig-ignorant tripe. Notice how she doesn't dispute Adam's screams were inappropriately loud? She just says she's confident he was going to stop, once the plane was in the air and no one would be able to do anything about it if he didn't. And she wants the airline to pay for the portable crib??? Entitled wench.
Shortly after that incident, some Psychology Today writer named James C. Kaufman blogged about this Root affair in a post titled "Why does our society hate children?" Say what? What woe-is-me-victim-card-playing planet is this dude living on where the inhabitants assume society owes anyone's children the benefit of doubt? Kaufman is apparently perplexed by a society that doesn't treat underage airline travelers with squishy deference. He frets, "People eye a parent boarding a plane with a child with instant suspicion," and says he wouldn't mind paying extra for a child-friendly airline "where reasonably behaved kids can fly without fear of glares from miserable old ladies, put-off hipsters, and misanthropic businessmen." He's got the vapors because people are looking askance at him and his nasty progeny. Heaven forbid.
There is a notion, reflected in numerous blog comments about the incident, that other passengers should "just deal" and "give a kid a break." This notion is wrong. Parents like Root and others who selfishly force the rest of us to pay the cost of their choices in life aren't just bothering us; they're stealing from us. Most people don't see it this way, because what they're stealing isn't a thing we can grab on to, like a wallet. They're stealing our attention, our time and our peace of mind. […]
Granted, there sometimes are extenuating circumstances, reasons parents and their little hell-raiser simply must take a plane. Well, actually, there are two: dire family emergency (Granny's actually dying, not just dying to see the little tyke) and the need for a lifesaving operation for the wee screamer. In all other cases, if there's any chance a child is still in the feral stage, pop Granny on a flight or gas up the old minivan. It really does come down to this: Your right to bring your screaming child on a plane ends where the rest of our ears begin.
In closing, I hope my dear readers with children will appreciate the fact I was just blowing off a little steam this week. Please don't interpret the above as an indication of society's hatred of children. It was all just a bit of fun. We return to our usual methods of boring you next week. Enjoy your holiday!
The thing is with the internet you have to go search for it. Your column doesn't popup with a commercial have way through for girl gone wild. On TV however stuff just pops up without ya knowing.
Posted By: the internet is not TV (Guest) on November 25, 2009 at 09:05 PM
same goes for kids in movie theatres
Posted By: Guest#6116 (Guest) on November 25, 2009 at 09:24 PM
I agree with your sentiment.
I have one kid myself, who still screams the place down when he doesn't get his way, and that's pushing 3 years old.
When it comes to parenting, all you can do is the best you can, and minimise annoying everyone else in the process.
Posted By: djkeyserv140 (Guest) on November 25, 2009 at 10:24 PM
The fetus killers will rejoice.
Posted By: Guest#5775 (Guest) on November 25, 2009 at 11:01 PM
the ppl pissed off at the adam lambert thing are a bunch of retarded homophobes imo . IT wasnt a big deal omg he kissed someone teehee . He also groped a girl yet you dont here that you hear omg he kissed a guy now my son is gay omg
the plane thing SO true fuck i had a plane ride to CHina a little while ago and man there was a annoying lil kid and the mom was like umm what am i supposed to do
Posted By: MaZZacare (Guest) on November 25, 2009 at 11:39 PM
You know what really calms a kid down? A couple good smacks right in the chops. Sure the first smack might bring about a wail, but the second will tone it down to a whimper.
Posted By: ChildBeater (Guest) on November 26, 2009 at 01:46 AM
Yeah, let's all complain about how annoying kids are, because we weren't like that when we were young!
Posted By: benjaminbutton (Guest) on November 26, 2009 at 06:31 AM
Great stuff Enrique, I agree all the way.
Posted By: z (Guest) on November 26, 2009 at 07:12 AM
Oddly enough I was just on an airplane last Friday with a 5 year old and a 6 year old in front of me. They refused to stay quiet even when their parents fought with them making a huge scene.
One of them insisted on the playing with the reclining feature on her seat, knocking my laptop of my tray table once (thank god for tiny seats so it just landed in my lap) and then later actually grabbed my screen as she reached behind her seat to "yank it back up"
When I confronted the parents the response "They are only children!" yeah well that may be true but it's your job to keep them well behaved in public.
Posted By: DeimosMasque (Guest) on November 26, 2009 at 08:11 AM
You gotta love the people who think that just because their kid is the center of their world, that they should be the center of everyone's world.
Posted By: Josh (Guest) on November 26, 2009 at 10:58 AM
I think what you are ignoring in your analysis is the concept of ratings for televised content. If the AMAs are rated in a way that says there is nothing risque, then something is risque, there is a problem. That means /I/ wasn't able to make an informed decision.
Let's contrast: I don't think we should pull Heroes off of the air because it shows someone's throat being telekinetically split. The show is rated as having violence, so I can make the call on whether I want my kid to possibly see a super-speed decapitation.
However... if you lie to me... it's a problem.
Posted By: J. Alexander Mitchell (Guest) on November 26, 2009 at 11:11 AM
Yeah, let's all complain about how annoying kids are, because we weren't like that when we were young!
Posted By: benjaminbutton (Guest)
I never, ever acted like that, and neither did my sisters. Our parents took an active role in raising us, with good behavior always expected. If we were bad, we got taken straight home.
Add public transportation to the list of places people need to control their children. Once I was on the bus and a woman sat down with her son, around four years old. He began shouting incessantly for no reason at all, and she didn't say a word. Her complete ignorance, combined with having about 40 minutes left on my ride, was too much. I shouted at him to be quiet, and the mother went full Jerry Springer guest. She went as far as to stand up and threaten me, which was especially crazy because she was barely over 5 feet tall. She even turned to her kid and told him to yell as loud as he wants. Knowing someone like that has bred just makes me shudder. The kid was startled enough to keep quiet, and I stared a hole through the mother until she got scared and sat down. The driver did nothing of course, as he sat not ten feet away. Why aren't such people given the boot?
Parents who feel entitled to burden those around them with their lack of responsibility raise children who will do the same. Looking back, I wish I had shouted at her to do her job as a parent, rather than the child whose only crime was to have a bad mother.
Posted By: Jason Douglas (Guest) on November 26, 2009 at 01:09 PM
never, ever acted like that, and neither did my sisters. Our parents took an active role in raising us, with good behavior always expected. If we were bad, we got taken straight home.
Add public transportation to the list of places people need to control their children. Once I was on the bus and a woman sat down with her son, around four years old. He began shouting incessantly for no reason at all, and she didn't say a word. Her complete ignorance, combined with having about 40 minutes left on my ride, was too much. I shouted at him to be quiet, and the mother went full Jerry Springer guest. She went as far as to stand up and threaten me, which was especially crazy because she was barely over 5 feet tall. She even turned to her kid and told him to yell as loud as he wants. Knowing someone like that has bred just makes me shudder. The kid was startled enough to keep quiet, and I stared a hole through the mother until she got scared and sat down. The driver did nothing of course, as he sat not ten feet away. Why aren't such people given the boot?
Parents who feel entitled to burden those around them with their lack of responsibility raise children who will do the same. Looking back, I wish I had shouted at her to do her job as a parent, rather than the child whose only crime was to have a bad mother.
Posted By: Jason Douglas (Guest) on November 26, 2009 at 01:09 PM
Well put, parents today want to be their kids best friend. You can instill dicipline without kicking their ass. You just have to have some spine. Parents that do not take care of their childrens bad behavior or make excuses for little Sally are shitty parents.
Posted By: John (Guest) on November 26, 2009 at 03:23 PM
I recently attended a live Star Wars concert at the Izod Center here in NJ (yeah, I'm a Star Wars geek, so sue me :)).
My buddy and I had seats up in the nosebleeds, it was my birthday, and nothing could be better.
Until I sat down.
The child sitting behind me, started, as soon as the lights went out (if you're familiar with the show, it's presented with a movie screen backdrop and a live orchestra) to kick the back of my seat, only stopping to put her foot on my shoulder several times. Leaning forward allieviated that nuisance, but the seat-kicking continued, stopping only during the 20-minute intermission (when the lights came on). She was with her brother and grandparents. I did what I could, by turning around and looking at the toddler, trying to get her to stop (I'm a pretty big guy and I would imagine that would intimidate a small child). When that failed, I turned to look at the grandfather, seated to her immediate right.
As soon as I turned around to look at him, this imbecile would quickly turn in the other direction, pretending to have to tend to the brother. Finally, after some people to my right left, I was able to move seats.
The fact remains that I shouldn't have had to change seats. I paid for the seats in front of the little seat-kicker, and those were the seats I wanted.
The other thing that pissed me off to no end was that the grandfather did not seem to want to address the issue at all, making it seem like he was condoning it. I know he knew what was happening, he just chose to ignore it. Like my friend said, how hard would it have been for him to just quietly put his hand on the kid's leg to get her to stop?
And I'm not even going to get started on seeing the kid throw a temper tantrum at the souvenir stand and the parents give in to him in the hopes that he'd just shut up.
Posted By: Knighthawk (Guest) on November 26, 2009 at 05:11 PM
"Looking back, I wish I had shouted at her to do her job as a parent, rather than the child whose only crime was to have a bad mother."
I DARE you to do that. You'll wind up getting you ass kicked or shot. I bet that would just make your day...
Posted By: Guest#0660 (Guest) on November 26, 2009 at 10:09 PM
kids will be kids. The problem here is that the useless parents don't think about other people.
Posted By: someguy (Guest) on November 26, 2009 at 11:26 PM
Posted By: Jason Douglas (Guest) on November 26, 2009 at 01:09 PM
Amazing you can remember every moment as a kid.
Posted By: Knighthawk (Guest) on November 26, 2009 at 05:11 PM
All it takes is a moment to say something you have a voice in this world.
You all are adults act like it. Sound like little kids bitching about their parents on the internet.
Posted By: Guest#3262 (Guest) on November 27, 2009 at 12:16 AM
As soon as I turned around to look at him, this imbecile would quickly turn in the other direction, pretending to have to tend to the brother.
The other thing that pissed me off to no end was that the grandfather did not seem to want to address the issue at all, making it seem like he was condoning it. I know he knew what was happening, he just chose to ignore it. Like my friend said, how hard would it have been for him to just quietly put his hand on the kid's leg to get her to stop?
Posted By: Knighthawk (Guest) on November 26, 2009 at 05:11 PM
====> Why didn't you have the guts to actually assert yourself and SAY SOMETHING rathert than just look at the guy? How hard would THAT have been? MAN UP next time!
I love all you whiny babies who don't have the guts to speak up.
Posted By: Eric (Guest) on November 27, 2009 at 09:08 AM
"Looking back, I wish I had shouted at her to do her job as a parent, rather than the child whose only crime was to have a bad mother."
I DARE you to do that. You'll wind up getting you ass kicked or shot. I bet that would just make your day...
Posted By: Guest#0660
I did somewhat scold myself after the fact about confronting a potential lunatic, even though I was in the right. But I can't say getting shot would make my day. Is that a Dirty Harry reference or just a very odd comment?
JAM: I agree about TV show ratings. When they affirmatively state what level of parental discretion is advised, then far exceed it, something is wrong. I don't condone censorship for the children's sake any more than Enrique, but putting that attention seeking display on screen without warning crosses the line. The networks need to blacklist those who insist on such stunts.
Posted By: Jason Douglas (Guest) on November 27, 2009 at 11:41 AM
When all else fails, and the situation warrants, take a page from the Dobson playbook! If kids don't want to obey, beat them! Not only does it alleviate stress, it cant be rather fun as well.
Posted By: Guest#5362 (Guest) on November 27, 2009 at 03:09 PM
" Looking back, I wish I had shouted at her to do her job as a parent, rather than the child whose only crime was to have a bad mother."
Because that would have solved the situation or just made you feel more like a man? You know NOTHING about that child, her mother or the situation they are in. you know NOTHING about whether the child has any kind of emotional issues or not and cannot control himself or if it is an episode that will subside in a few minutes. Your just going to assume the child is like every other child or somehow is a carbon copy of what you were as a kid as if it has no individuality or perhaps issues you did not have
But go right ahead and yell at a 4 year old's mother like somehow you know EVERYTHING that is going on with them, and in their life. Instead of handeling it like an adult and maybe talking to the mother first and being a REAL adult about it and finding out...you are the one who is going to be the child here and create a scene...that makes alot of sense.
GJ....you should have recanted want you said about "people like that" pro-creating because by the sounds of it I'd rather have someone like that, who is willing to stand up for their child against some know it all stranger like you, having a child in their care.
Posted By: natman (Guest) on November 27, 2009 at 06:38 PM
natman: Did you even read what I wrote? The kid sat down and started yelling for no reason. The ignorant mother did nothing. This went on for several minutes. The moment I shouted at him, he stopped. The mother was absolute white trash. Some people are bad parents because they're lazy, ignorant, and not terribly bright. She was clearly one of them. And if the kid did have some issue that he needed to constantly yell, that doesn't mean everyone else on the bus should be subjected to it. That's the entire point of the article; many parents think the world is theirs and everyone else is in their way. Don't even get me started about them sitting at the front of the bus and blocking the entire aisle with a stroller they can't bother to fold up.
BTW, I was actually quite rattled after the incident because I'm normally the last person to seek confrontation. There was just no way I was going to listen to that kid shouting for another 40 minutes when it could be stopped at any time. A lot of people in this world need to be brought down to earth, but I have no desire to make it my personal crusade.
Posted By: Jason Douglas (Guest) on November 28, 2009 at 09:27 AM
I'd rather have someone like that, who is willing to stand up for their child against some know it all stranger like you, having a child in their care.
Posted By: natman (Guest) on November 27, 2009 at 06:38 PM
Cause you've gotta have SOMETHING to bitch about, right?
Posted By: Guest#8172 (Guest) on November 28, 2009 at 09:47 AM
Maybe I'm just blissfully patient, but I have nothing but infinite patience whenever I see a young child being a brat. It's humerous, cute even, to see them crying over something that is grossly insignificant.
What I don't like is bratty teenagers. Million times more of a pain in the ass.
Heres a story: I was riding the subway during my first visit to NYC with some friends. It's crowded and I'm by the door so as people push past me to get the door, I have to back up a tad, unfortunatly into the stroller carring a small child. The father proceeds to flip out at me, but the entire time I'm just staying quiet because ultimatly I know it's not really a big deal. I get he was worried about his kid but goodness sakes, were is his common sense? It was a literal sardine can, people were pushing me. Ah well, some people just can't be happy I suppose.
-L
Posted By: xLx (Guest) on November 29, 2009 at 04:10 PM
I just recently had a son last June. This is one of the aspects of parenthood I do not look forward to. I believe that parents should discipline their children, but there should also be a minimal amount of "kids will be kids". What would make a big difference in the scenarios above would be if the parent would apologize for their children. If a kid steps out of line and the parent tries to keep the situation under control, and then apologizes everyone feels at least a little content in that the parent made an effort to alleviate the situation.
Posted By: Obrie007 (Guest) on November 29, 2009 at 05:36 PM
ONE SHOT, ONE KILL
DF = teh w1nrar
Oh, and the kids? Yeah. It's called "bad parenting." Was I a little douchebag now and again when I was a tyke? Of course. But if I wasn't respectful and nice while out in public I'd get that glare from my mother that meant I was in for a world of shit when I got home, or I got the firm-talking-through-clenched-teeth-and-wide-eyes from my dad. I'm in full agreement with you about TV and the 'net, that people shouldn't be surprised when something happens that might "offend" their children, especially considering what is and isn't considered obscene in this day and age is drastically different from 20 years ago when a lot of the newer parents were just tykes themselves (or maybe not even born yet).
Yet, I can't help but see the arguing point never brought up here: the AMA's aren't on during the afternoon, they're on during primetime, a few hours of an evening (8-11, I believe) where potential viewership is at its highest. If a child is young enough to where they don't already have some concept of adult interests, then why the fuck are they up that late to begin with, and why are you not watching TV with them when they're that young to explain to them what's appropriate and what isn't?
People go on about sex and violence on television and in movies all of the time, but they never fail to realize that art imitates life and not the other way around. I was allowed to watch Terminator, Aliens, and a host of other violent R-rated fare as a child (I'm talking ages 5-7) so long as I could demonstrate that I knew it was fantasy and not reality. Maybe if parents were better at teaching their children this then nothing would be that big of a fucking deal anymore.
And on a side note, people shouldn't get on Adam Lambert's case for being sexually charged during his performances. They should get on his case over the fact that he's only famous because he auditioned for a fucking television show, and not because he paid any dues at all as a musician.
Posted By: AndrewCrow (Guest) on November 30, 2009 at 08:55 AM
"And if the kid did have some issue that he needed to constantly yell, that doesn't mean everyone else on the bus should be subjected to it."
So what your saying is unless everyone falls into what you deem to be appropriate behavior than they should not be allowed the same rights as you??
Cause that is what it sounds like. Again you have no idea the situation that family was in and you seem to "know" the mother was white trash. How do you know this? Just by how she looks? Because she didn't "shut her kid up" fast enough for you?
Do you have any idea what you sound like? I have been an educator for 17 years dealing with special needs children, and based on your logic not one of them would be allowed on any bus you are on. I have kids that yell and carry on and can be tough to control and have outbursts both physical and verbal, I have others who need special attention getting on and off the bus which may delay others on the bus. Are they not allowed on either because they may "delay" you? Some of these kids "look" perfectly normal until they have their outburst...you wouldn't know they had any issue until then or unless you knew the child.
Just wondering where the line is drawn and who would be allowed on your bus and who wouldn't?
Posted By: natman (Guest) on November 30, 2009 at 10:59 AM
It is amazing what a little perspective will do. My issue with this douchebag writer is that he is so incredibly short sighted, assuming that he holds the only valid perspective. If you asked me, which I suppose you really didn't, two of the world's biggest issues are poor parenting, but also this disgusting, egocentric world that we currently live in that is populated by several billion people that assume the rest of us give a shit about them and what they think
Posted By: Guest#9360 (Guest) on November 30, 2009 at 01:33 PM
natman: Do you know why special needs children are placed in separate classrooms? They're so disruptive otherwise that the other kids wouldn't be able to learn. You have thick skin because your job requires it, good for you. If you really don't get that screaming in public is unacceptable, and A PARENT TELLING HER CHILD TO SCREAM ALL HE WANTS AND THREATENING VIOLENCE is unacceptable, there's no getting through to you. If that sort of thing is tolerated in the general public, we might as well live in trees and fling crap at each other. Do you ever interact with "normal" children? They would all shout, fight and generally act like animals if not disciplined. I was there, you weren't. You're just projecting, and ignoring whatever parts of my story aren't tailored to your rant. Not every negative behavior is tied to a syndrome or chemical imbalance. Most unruly kids are the product of shoddy upbringing. Validating it by assuming otherwise is counterproductive. Insisting on it when the facts clearly demonstrate otherwise defies logic. I proved in two seconds that the mother could make the yelling stop by acting like a parent. Your argument ended right there.
As for general bus behavior, riding is not a right. You still have to pay to ride, and they can certainly kick you off. The drivers just choose most of the time to ignore rowdy behavior, from drunken rants to screaming kids. Nobody wants to get involved. Just last week a crazy man sat in back and had a heated exchange with invisible people. He wasn't on a cell phone, he was crazy. A bus full of people had to sit nervously for over 20 minutes, wondering if he might attack someone. You advocate it, I don't.
Posted By: Jason Douglas (Guest) on November 30, 2009 at 01:51 PM
This debate will rage on forever. I have two children of my own and I don't always agree with things they may be exposed to, BUT I realize that the risk will always be there. I really get tired of the whole TV is bad, Video Games are bad, blah blah blah. I let my son play video games and watch TV but I am the one that buys his games and monitor what he is watching. I also understand that I can't be there all the time so I prepare him for the things he may or may not be exposed to in hopes that he will make the "right" decisions. I guess my point is, if you are worried about you kids being exposed to something maybe you should pay better attention and stop blaming TV, Radio, Video Games and pretty much everything else. The real issue is kids having kids and people that just don't care. Sorry just my humble opinion.
Posted By: Doesn't Matter (Guest) on November 30, 2009 at 02:38 PM
I agree with you and a lot of the comments here, parents need to do a better job of looking after their kids, but people have been saying that for 30 years. I think everybody is aware that "won't you think about the children" has just become an excuse to legislate morality & promote censorship.
An interesting question would be: how much has it cost us (from 1980 till the present) to parent other people's children including things like government boards, various organizations that provide rating services (simply by existing and thus creating more paychecks to generate) and the war on drugs... I would wager "it takes a village" has been a monstrous drain on our society
Posted By: Madcapunlimited (Guest) on November 30, 2009 at 03:20 PM
I think parental bad behavior is a symptom of our new society. People will abuse the power that you give them.
For example, I work in and live near San Francisco. This is a place where bicyclist have a ridiculous amount of power. There are bike lanes everywhere. So I'm driving down the street the other day and a bicyclist is just leisurely pedalling away in the lane, instead of over in the bike lane, six feet to the right. This was causing a considerable backup as cars were trying to get around and the bicyclist was at all interested in moving.
Bad parents are like that because they are rude, and rude people abuse the system. We have no ability to check those that are rude. Back at the turn of the last century, you might have been asked firmly to take you screaming child out of the restaurant, and if you didn't some fella might just grab you by the collar, pull you outside, and deck you. It's not pretty, but that's the way it was. It has been said many times that society was more polite back then because you had to assume everyone was armed.
We have police to monitor crimes, but the overly litigious nature of America means that the threat of the average citizen is gone. Are the police going to take care of something like a screaming child in a restaurant? No. Is management? In my experience, not very often. So who does.
If you are lucky, you. Sometimes talking to the parents works, but what if it doesn't? Then you are standing there looking like an idiot when the rude people are now specifically rude to you. There isn't jack you can do. I sat on a subway and watched a group of people berate a passenger for cutting in line when the doors opened and stealing on of the only seats available. The cutter couldn't have cared less. She just took out a book and started reading.
As a society, we need to figure out what to do with the rude. It's a problem, since there is no good measure. It's objective. But I've noticed just in my short lifetime how much worse it's gotten than when I was a child. I have to wonder if by the time I'm 60 I'll be living in a civil society that is in no way civil, but perfectly legal.
Posted By: xjuggernaughtx (Guest) on November 30, 2009 at 03:58 PM
An interesting question would be: how much has it cost us (from 1980 till the present) to parent other people's children including things like government boards, various organizations that provide rating services (simply by existing and thus creating more paychecks to generate) and the war on drugs... I would wager "it takes a village" has been a monstrous drain on our society
Posted By: Madcapunlimited (Guest) on November 30, 2009 at 03:20 PM
This is a great point.
Posted By: xjuggernaughtx (Guest) on November 30, 2009 at 04:01 PM
"Most unruly kids are the product of shoddy upbringing."
That again is your OPINION, There are kids I know personally who had involved parents, involved family members who really cared for them and guess what. These kids have serious issues that have NOTHING to do with their upbringing. So to make a blanket statement like that is just ignorant.
"I proved in two seconds that the mother could make the yelling stop by acting like a parent. Your argument ended right there."
Again your basing your argument on how you feel a parent should parent? Do you have any children of your own? I'm guessing you don't. What if that child would be fine after 5 minutes and yelling at them would just make it worse (there are kids in my school where that is the case), but you know it all don't you? your "logic" trumps everything.
I'm not saying there aren't bad parents out there because that isn't true, what I AM saying is for people to in 2 seconds make an assumption about someone's parenting skills or lack there off is misinformed and ill-guided at best
Posted By: natman (Guest) on November 30, 2009 at 09:33 PM
Natman, it doesn't matter whether a person understands another's parenting method or not. When you are in a public space, you know what the rules are. You have a civil responsibility, though not legal, to conduct yourself in a civil fashion and to do your best to have your child do that as well. No one will succeed all the time, but you should try. We have a national understanding of the rules, and as long as you are trying, I'm willing to cut some slack to people that fail. However, sitting on a bus ignoring the fact that your child is screaming their head off is in blatant opposition to those standards and you know it. If you know your child is prone to screaming but will be okay after 5 or 10 minutes, it's NOT appropriate to bring them into a public space unless you really, really have to. They aren't ready to handle it.
Now, this woman may have really, really needed to. Maybe that's why she was slacking off. Maybe she was mentally on her husband in the hospital or something. However these things happen with increasing frequency in our society, and only in a small number of cases is it necessary.
Posted By: xjuggernaughtx (Guest) on December 01, 2009 at 11:14 AM
I totally agree w/ you on this article! Which takes me back that everyone in America has a problem with everything. Your children your problem. The question is why do you have your children up watching something they know NOTHING about, and why dont they have they butts in bed. Somethings that parents complain about is their own fault, sorry to say it but it is. You have to monitor, and I am not just saying this because I have no children, I have God children and two nephews. Children pick up on things, basically soaking up everything they hear and see like lil vaccum cleaners.
Now that crying on that plane, they should not have gave that lady SHIT! Point blank. Parents need to learn how to control their own children and stop letting the children control you! My mom use to have pep talks with us it worked try it sometimes parents. Do you think because they made you and your yelling ass child get off the plane they are loosing out! Nope I personally believe they should do that to all yelling and crying ass kids. I had to take a flight from Chicago to Florida one time and the baby cried almost the whole way! I was pissed and her ass should have been put off!
Posted By: pmoore (Registered) on December 01, 2009 at 12:31 PM
natman: Ever hear the phrase "you can't argue with results"? I DID let it go on for several minutes and it didn't stop. I spoke up, it stopped immediately. How big a leap is it to conclude one led to the other?
Disorderly conduct is a crime, and nonstop yelling is certainly included, so this is not about me imposing some self designed notion of proper behavior. When a parent makes zero effort to correct bad behavior, I draw the only possible conclusion. It's not how the kid acted, but that he was allowed to continue that is the problem.
Some good parents still have bad kids. Some kids with bad parents still manage to be good kids. But nobody ever raised a good kid by sitting back in total indifference while their child ran amuck, and no case can be made that doing so is a valid form of parenting. "Ignore them and they'll eventually stop" is a theory born of laziness. When a mother hears her child crying for an actual reason, she comforts him. A gentle word, an arm around him, a toy from her purse, SOMETHING. This woman's behavior was such that no one who didn't see them board together would have even known he was hers. I sincerely feel bad for him.
Posted By: Jason Douglas (Registered) on December 01, 2009 at 05:17 PM
I have two children a pre-teen and a teenager both of whom have known since birth that momma don’t take no mess and will not hesitate beating that tail if either one got out of line. They know how to act in public and i get really annoyed when i have to be around children that do not know how to act and wonder why it is that the parent’s don’t pop them.
I have a 4year old little brother who ran down the aisle in walmart in the cereal aisle with his arm out knocking down every box of cereal, when my uncle went over and grabbed him a lady ran up to him and begged him not to hit him. My father on the other hand has conversations with him. The same man that when me and my brother were children did not hesitate to pull out the belt and put the fear of God in us. When did the children start calling the shots? And believe me that when that child comes into my home i have a conversation with him as well, and I tell him that I beats little children that do not know how to act when they enter into my domain and your parents will do nothing about it. My baby brother may not like me but he will respect me even if he don’t our father. The world is not going to dictate how i will raise my children so if they deserve an ass whipping they will get one and they are pretty good kids because of it. Bottom line, train a child up right and he will not depart from it...
Now as far as that other stuff, the entire world does not live in eastern time it was not 11 where in mountain, pacific or central time but regardless of what time zone you live in simulation a sexual act does not belong on ABC bottom line.
Posted By: TEE (Guest) on December 01, 2009 at 07:49 PM
If an unruly child can't be allowed out in public (when usually the parent is unaware the child will BECOME unruly until it is far too late), then by that logic, shouldn't drunk people be prohibited from being out in public also?
For example: my daughter (4 years old) and I are eating at a restaurant. She is sitting peacefully, coloring, adhering to the basics of good behavior. A table or 3 over, 3 guys are being loud and obnoxious because they've been drinking. Why should they be allowed to behave this way and no one says anything or glares at them yet if my kid was making the same level of noise (and much more G-rated), people would stop and glare?
Oh, and my kid has flown 3 times and was great on each flight, even one that started with a 45 minute wait on the runway. Several people complimented me and my daughter on her traveling abilities (she was 8 months old at the time).
Posted By: Swarley (Guest) on December 02, 2009 at 09:10 AM
STAY CURRENT