Reason’s Greetings – Your 2009 Atheist Holiday Update
Posted by Enrique on 12.23.2009
For the rest of us...
Seasons greetings, dear readers. As you may be aware, for the last two years I have used the occasion of the holidays to godlessly opine on the state of the war on Christmas. (Previous editions can be read here and here. We thank you for your custom.) This year, a ceasefire seems to be in effect. Unlike the War on Terror, the war on Christmas appears to have ended peacefully.
This is Bush's fault somehow.
The story so far…
As is to be expected, the patriotic folks at the Wisconsin-based Freedom From Religion Foundation have celebrated the winter solstice with a controversial ad campaign.
There's no Santa either
According to the FFRF, one hundred of the "Yes, Virginia…" bus ads have been appearing in Seattle since last month. Well, you'd expect that from Seattle, wouldn't you? Finding atheism in Seattle is like finding a creationist at a Sarah Palin book signing. While most Americans feel a certain visceral repulsion at atheist propaganda, you've got to admit this year's ad campaign is pretty ho-hum. Could this be an indication that atheists just aren't putting their hearts into this war on Christmas anymore?
On the other side, there doesn't seem to be a great deal of outrage on the part of conservative Christians. The O'Reilly Factor featured its traditional interview with an FFRF flack (featuring guest host Laura Ingraham!), but a review of transcript reveals it to be a rote, pro forma affair. As for congressional Republicans pandering to the religious right, the best I can come up with is this silliness:
A Republican lawmaker with a mission to save Christmas is aiming his latest salvo at President and first lady Obama, who've followed in a recent tradition to eliminate the mention of Christmas in the White House holiday cards.
The card selected by the Obamas announces: "Season's Greetings." Inside, it reads: "May your family have a joyous holiday season and a new year blessed with hope and happiness."
But Rep. Henry Brown, R-S.C., said abandoning Christmas at Christmas is just plain wrong. On Tuesday, he introduced a resolution calling for the protection of the sanctity of Christmas. So far, 44 lawmakers, Democrat and Republican, have co-signed the bill.
"I believe that sending a Christmas card without referencing a holiday and its purpose limits the Christmas celebration in favor of a more 'politically correct' holiday," Brown told Fox News Radio on Thursday.
"This kind of reproach is exactly what my Christmas resolution, introduced to the House of Representatives earlier this week, is against as the resolution expresses support for the use of Christmas symbols and traditions and disapproval of all attempts to ban or limit references to Christmas," he added.
All right, we get it, Rep. Brown. You love the baby Jesus and you want everyone to know it. But it's sort of inane that you're concerned about "limiting" references to Christmas. I can't imagine how any reasonable person could argue it's the role of our elected officials to police the terminology by which Americans express holiday greetings. I'm not sure Jesus would be impressed with Brown's gesture. The New Testament portrays Jesus as a radical socialist who hates the rich and doesn't believe in personal responsibility. No doubt Christ would support single payer healthcare and admire Hugo Chavez. It's hard to believe Jesus would support any politician who didn't believe in wealth redistribution. The Fox News article goes on to note former president George W. Bush's 2008 holiday card didn't include the phrase "Merry Christmas" either. Presumably, Brown didn't get the vapors over it last year.
But as far as Christian outrage goes, Brown's facile attempt at grandstanding and Laura Ingraham's mostly polite conversation with a blasphemous cheesehead is about all there is to see this year. Perhaps the two-year long recession and fears of a government takeover of healthcare have put things in perspective. The war on Christmas – which was always a manufactured issue to help MSM commentators and bloggers generate content during a slow time of the news year – simply doesn't rate as a pressing issue. Slate reporter Christopher Beam goes so far as to argue the war on Christmas is basically over. However, he does pay obligatory lip service to the real conflict at the heart of the fake Christmas war:
There's a distinction, of course, between the "war on Christmas"—essentially a media story pitting aggressive Christmas celebrators against people of other faiths, agnostic Christians, and the occasional atheist—and disputes about the separation of church and state. The latter are going strong. A crèche was recently removed from public property in a suburb of Cincinnati after it caused a stir. Both a nativity scene and a menorah were taken off a courthouse lawn in Luzerne County, Pa., after a warning from the American Civil Liberties Union. A federal judge in Arkansas, meanwhile, allowed a display of secular "freethinkers" to appear alongside various religious symbols at the State Capitol. Those kinds of disputes persist, says Sean Faircloth of the Secular Coalition for America, but they get eclipsed by the "war on Christmas" hype. "Once the novelty of its inherent silliness wears off, people might return to Constitution," he says.
He may get his wish. Just as the "war on Christmas" has obscured legitimate debate over church and state, other national issues seem to be overwhelming the "war on Christmas." Health care reform, climate change talks, and tax breaks for bankers provide plenty of fuel for conservative anger—and eat up plenty of air time. And perhaps Obama is diffusing some of the fear that his election would usher in an era of secular humanism. A devout Christian, he has continued many of the religious traditions of his predecessor, including the National Day of Prayer.
The AP recently reported on the details of the White House Christmas decorations, including those that appear in public spaces. The AP doesn't mention a nativity scene, although this NYT profile of White House social secretary Desirée Rogers says there is one in the East Room. That would be a curious omission from a story on White House Christmas decorations, no? But even if there is no crèche, it seems indisputable public spaces of the White House are decorated in celebration of one particular religious faith. As atheist hero Christopher Hitchens notes, there is ample space in the White House reserved for the First Family's private life and expressions of their faith. No need for garlands and wreaths on public property.
Still, it's hard to get worked up about it, even for a radical secularist such as yours truly. In many ways, it's a shame the war on Christmas is on pause this year. I look forward to the next season when our concerns our so trivial that we have time to waste fighting over "Merry Christmas" and "Happy Holidays."
And as far as atheist bus ads go, I still prefer this one:
Enrique--I respect your views and would recommend a book called "The Reason For God" by Tim Keller. I believe that it paints a very real case for the existence of God. I'm sorry many Christians have made it impossible for you to believe in God. There is more to the Gospel of Christ than rules and finger wagging. I do wish you and yours a safe and merry Christmas.
Posted By: Anderson (Guest) on December 23, 2009 at 10:04 PM
I wonder if the people that slam Jesus and the bible have ever read the bible or studied it? I mean READ the bible and STUDIED it?
Posted By: Truth (Guest) on December 23, 2009 at 10:10 PM
Yes, I've READ it and STUDIED it. Its a collection or parables. Stories Nothing more, nothing less. How come Christians can't see that most of the old testament is stolen from older, just as cockamamie, beliefs. Great flood? its been done. Garden of Eden? Been done also.
Enrique- I can usually pride myself on looking at the title of an article and predicting that you were the author. Not this time.
Once we get over our unhealthy belief of an invisible giant who lives in the sky who knows every thought and action of all, we'll be in a better place.
Posted By: TheEd (Guest) on December 23, 2009 at 10:43 PM
"I wonder if the people that slam Jesus and the bible have ever read the bible or studied it? I mean READ the bible and STUDIED it? "
I find that atheists actually tend to be MORE well-versed on the bible than many creationists. This makes sense because the more you actually know about the contents of the bible the more likely you are to see how ridiculous and contrived it is, not to mention all the evil shit thats in there that definitely wouldn't fly in the pretend religious text, had it been written in the last century or so.
Also studying the bible is more likely to bring to one's attention little details like the fact that the gospel writers weren't even in the same generation as jesus, and other major logical gaps and inconsistencies.
Posted By: Santa Claus (Guest) on December 23, 2009 at 10:55 PM
Atheists believe in a non-existant eternal universe as the backbone to their beliefs.
No wonder they get laughed at so much.
Posted By: Michael (Guest) on December 23, 2009 at 11:46 PM
I for one am happy to see that the War on Christmas is at cease fire. I wish you all -every single last one of you the best of Christmases whether you like it or not, regardless of what you do and how you do it on December 25th. Nowadays, we can all do with a little less inanity, which in itself is a true Christmas holiday miracle.
Posted By: The Weesel (Guest) on December 24, 2009 at 12:28 AM
"I wonder if the people that slam Jesus and the bible have ever read the bible or studied it? I mean READ the bible and STUDIED it?"
I wish more dyed-in-the-wool believers studied the history and context of the Bible.
Maybe then, my inbox wouldn't be full of admonitions against calling it "Xmas" instead of "Christmas."
Posted By: J.D. Dunn (Registered) on December 24, 2009 at 12:44 AM
Fact is we celebrate a holiday on the 25th of Decemeber because of Jesus birth and his impact in the world. It will be funny when we can't reference Martin Luther King on his day for fear of alienating skinheads.
Posted By: Guest#1134 (Guest) on December 24, 2009 at 12:51 AM
Atheism is a religion based outside of any real science or logical thought. You can't prove there is no God, you rely on your faith that there isn't one. There is no way you can use logic to concretely prove God doesn't exist so you are all just as fanatical as the Christian believers you so despise.
Agnostic is the only way to go, because either way we'll never know while we're on this earth.
Posted By: Guest#9774 (Guest) on December 24, 2009 at 12:59 AM
Then there is people like me who think the Bible is compatible with (and actually supports) evolution.
Posted By: CDL (Guest) on December 24, 2009 at 01:08 AM
I don't mind something like "Reason's Greetings" or even last year's "Just be good for goodness sake". It seems here to be taking a more confrontational approach with an outright "There is no God". What's coming next year, a sign that says "Jesus, are all you people stupid?!".
I support free speech of course, so I'm not saying that they don't have a right to buy these ads or that they should be taken down (as was done in several areas). I'm just saying that I can see why the tone of it offends religious people. Are you trying to bring people around to reason, gain sympathy/understanding for your position, or just trying to bug some religous folk?
On a side note, I wounder how anxious these people would be to take out a billboard that says "There is no Allah"?
Obama planning a "non religous christmas" does kinda piss me off though (as well as being a contradiction in terms). No true Christian that I know would forgo one of it's most sacred holidays, politics or not.
Posted By: Omni (Guest) on December 24, 2009 at 01:52 AM
Very enjoyable read.
Posted By: Jake Digman (Guest) on December 24, 2009 at 02:16 AM
Atheists believe in a non-existant eternal universe as the backbone to their beliefs.
No wonder they get laughed at so much.
Posted By: Michael (Guest) on December 23, 2009 at 11:46 PM
Can I get a translation here? Because I'm an Atheist, and I was under the impression that Atheists tended to believe all those scientists and their observations that state the universe was made several billion years ago. Which, you know, is the opposite of eternal.
Posted By: mlsq42 (Registered) on December 24, 2009 at 05:18 AM
Sorry athiests. Taking down those billboards isn't censorship. It's a company making a business decision. Don't like it? Buy the land, erect your own billboard and run whatever you want 24/7/365. Until then, STFU and Merry Christmas.
Posted By: Eric (Guest) on December 24, 2009 at 07:08 AM
The Jesus/MLK comparison makes no sense. Sounds like a closet racist to me. They're attacking Jesus so i'll attack a black guy! That'll show 'em! Holy shit, don't tell that guy Jesus was supposedly a dark skinned jew.
Jesus, if he did actually exist, wasn't born on the 25th of December and didn't die on the 25th of December. Tomorrow is a day of celebration because the Titans take out the Super Chargers.
Posted By: Acid (Guest) on December 24, 2009 at 08:55 AM
This whole thing is just STUPID! I say "Happy Holidays" for 2 reasons. 1.It includes ALL holidays from Thanksgiving to New Years Day. 2.It has a nice ring to it, like when Ali was called The Louisville Lip.
Posted By: The Great Capt. Smooth (Guest) on December 24, 2009 at 09:25 AM
The only "war on xmas" that I see, are all the people who spend their time fighting over any god. We don't live in that time anymore. Grow up! Christians put up as many and as equally offensive ads and personal signs as Atheists do. Neither of them should be made to take them down. Atheism is the lack of belief, not a religious belief. Most Atheists come from Christian upbringings. Visit an Atheist gathering once, ask them about their childhoods and you'll get pretty much the same story from most of them. I think that the real problem is a bit more personal than most are willing to admit. To say there is no god is no more damaging as to say there is no Santa. Its nothing more than words. If you don't agree, move on, that's what we've (the Atheists) done up until now and now we are called militant and angry. If it's true for us, it's true from all those in your face Christians and other religious extremists. Isn't it bad enough people get so stupid during this time of year that they are less than nice to each other. PS...Don't go to the mall till the second week of the new year. Try not to drive too much till then too. This is the worse time of the year and it has nothing to do with god... I do want to say this though... I agree with the last comment on this page. I don't think any self-respecting Christian would forfit his Christanity during a so called "Christian" holiday... It should be called a "Commercial" holiday though. It lost god a long long time ago... Thank you coke.
Posted By: AtheistMommy (Guest) on December 24, 2009 at 10:36 AM
"Atheism is a religion based outside of any real science or logical thought. You can't prove there is no God, you rely on your faith that there isn't one. " Actually we just assume there isn't one because there is absolutely no evidence in anything that suggests there is one. I can't prove there's no Hogwarts either but since there's never been any reason to believe it does exist, it's a safe assumption.
Posted By: Frank (Guest) on December 24, 2009 at 10:57 AM
Whether you follow any of the Judeo-Christian religions or not, the morality they teach is what's important. My problem is with athiest who purport that there is no god and then tell you it's perfectly OK to give in to hedonistic impulses with little regard to anyone else. Now, the athiests who still adhere to moral decency but don't believe in a mythical creator, you people I have no real issue with.
Posted By: Mark Radulich (Registered) on December 24, 2009 at 11:44 AM
"Fact is we celebrate a holiday on the 25th of Decemeber because of Jesus birth and his impact in the world."
We celebrate a holiday on the 25th because of the Christian adoption of the pagan holiday Saturnalia, not because of Jesus' birth, which is in June if it happened the way it's written in the Bible.
"Obama planning a "non religous christmas" does kinda piss me off though (as well as being a contradiction in terms). No true Christian that I know would forgo one of it's most sacred holidays, politics or not."
That's because he wasn't. The internal discussion was about whether or not they should display a nativity scene during the Hannukah Party. And they did display it.
Posted By: J.D. Dunn (Registered) on December 24, 2009 at 12:02 PM
I'm an atheist but atheists that keep throwing their beliefs in other peoples' faces piss me off. If you don't believe in fairy-tales, fine, just shut the fuck up about it and leave everyone alone. Those people are just as annoying as all the self-righteous, Bible-thumping assholes Christians you meet.
Posted By: Zingy (Guest) on December 24, 2009 at 12:37 PM
Fact is we celebrate a holiday on the 25th of Decemeber because of Jesus birth and his impact in the world. It will be funny when we can't reference Martin Luther King on his day for fear of alienating skinheads.
Posted By: Guest#1134 (Guest) on December 24, 2009 at 12:51 AM
Fact is that you are failing to understand the fundamental difference between the two.
Also, I can prove MLK was real. You cannot prove Jesus was real.
Posted By: Guest#6384 (Guest) on December 24, 2009 at 01:34 PM
I think there are two separate debates here that often get conflated. The God of the philosophers or notion that one could reasonably argue of some sort of divine mystery, ground of being, horizon of existence etc. to be is one debate. The second debate is typically the battle between atheists and fundamentalists. The issue I see with each side is they both make the error of trying to find biological data or physics in a non-scientific book. So the New Atheists and the fundamentalists are making a serious error out of the gate that dooms them to each making self-defeating claims. Take Dawkins, he obviously thinks the universe is knowable, that he can know something about it and that you or I would be better off knowing what he knows about the universe. To this point I agree with Dawkins as I would like to know biology as well as he does. However, when he follows those actions with the statement that the universe is without purpose, I have to say his behaviors all betray a sense of purpose and the very act of debating people seems to be a purposeful act. Nietzsche's atheism is far more respectable because he accepted nihilism. Ask Nietzsche why he did not believe in God and he would say, "I don't know I forgot." In a purposeless universe what does it matter. Nietzsche had the courage to accept the consequences of his denial of Platonic Forms, the biblical God, or any supreme deity from other systems. Dawkins lives in an "as if" universe where he carries out acts that presuppose purpose all while preaching purposelessness (preaching, convincing etc. all presuppose purpose, value etc.)
Give me Nietzsche over Enrique's warmed over Enlightenment critique of faith. The Enlightenment narrative involves so many faith commitments that it falls apart if it is held to its own standards. Internal coherence is something the enlightenment valued yet fails to produce. Anyway, I am not an atheist, but if I were I'd be of the ilk of Sartre, Camus, Nietzsche and not of Enrique. Long live Platonism!
Posted By: Guest#7724 (Guest) on December 24, 2009 at 02:34 PM
"Atheism is a religion based outside of any real science or logical thought. You can't prove there is no God, you rely on your faith that there isn't one. There is no way you can use logic to concretely prove God doesn't exist so you are all just as fanatical as the Christian believers you so despise."
So by that logic, if I say I have an invisible elephant named Humphrey that lives inside me, you would be agnostic to this claim, since you can't prove that Humphrey doesn't exist, right? If you claim to be a-Humphrey (as in "a-theist"), you'd be fanatical and illogical...right?
Posted By: Greengo (Guest) on December 24, 2009 at 03:09 PM
How come atheists refuse to make signs regarding Islam and Allah? Shows you how much integrity atheists have.
Posted By: Michael (Guest) on December 24, 2009 at 05:42 PM
that the X in Xmas isn't "taking the Christ out of" Christmas? It's actually not an X at all. It's started as the greek letter chi, which monks that transcribed the Bible, by hand, used as a shortcut. So, any Christians that get in an uproar about this, now you know there's nothing to fuss about. For those non-believers that think they're getting over the name of Christ by replacing it with an "X," I guess you should find something else.
By the way, merry Christmas, and if you don't believe in the reason for the inspiration of this day, I hope you all have a nice December 25, 2009. Cheers.
Posted By: DID YOU KNOW (Guest) on December 24, 2009 at 06:29 PM
"Obama planning a "non religous christmas" does kinda piss me off though (as well as being a contradiction in terms). No true Christian that I know would forgo one of it's most sacred holidays, politics or not."
That's because he wasn't. The internal discussion was about whether or not they should display a nativity scene during the Hannukah Party. And they did display it.
Posted By: J.D. Dunn
I think that there were 2 separate issues here, that the idea was mentioned that they were planning a non religious Christmas, and that they might not display the manger scene. And no, I'm not just believing spin, if you go right to the source of the controversy, the NY times pages, this is how the origin of it reads...
"When former social secretaries gave a luncheon to welcome Ms. Rogers earlier this year, one participant said, she surprised them by suggesting the Obamas were planning a “non-religious Christmas” — hardly a surprising idea for an administration making a special effort to reach out to other faiths."
...and then in the next paragraph talks about the manger display. It seems to me from reading it that the idea of a non religious Christmas was something that was specifically mentioned, not something that may have been inferred from the manger idea. They clearly mention two separate suggestions, that they were planning a non religious christmas and the manger idea. (If that's not the case, then they need to learn to write far more clearly.) Also in the story, directly after the manger idea is stated, it says..."(A White House official confirmed that there had been internal discussions about making Christmas more inclusive and whether to display the crèche.)". Nothing specifically about just not displaying it during the Hannukah Party being the source of the idea, which one would think they would have mentioned when asked about it back then and cleared this whole thing up with no problems. Either this story was botched beyond belief by the NY Times as well as simultaneously being botched by the White House when asked about it, or they floated this idea out there and then went in to serious backpedal mode. Wouldn't be the first time a politician has done it.
Posted By: Omni (Guest) on December 24, 2009 at 06:37 PM
most of you people are idiots on here. its Christmas time for fuck sake. reguardless of your ethnicity and religion, Christmas can have 1 definition that we can all agree on. Love. Its a time to put the barbs away, and just get a long. We as humankind should just forget about arguing if there is or isn't a God(s)... but just treat eachother better and just try harder to get along damnit.
Posted By: mikecheck (Guest) on December 24, 2009 at 06:41 PM
"Atheism is a religion based outside of any real science or logical thought. You can't prove there is no God, you rely on your faith that there isn't one. There is no way you can use logic to concretely prove God doesn't exist so you are all just as fanatical as the Christian believers you so despise."
Looks like someone dosn't understand burden of proof...
Posted By: Jlevysan (Guest) on December 24, 2009 at 06:49 PM
"Sorry athiests. Taking down those billboards isn't censorship. It's a company making a business decision. Don't like it? Buy the land, erect your own billboard and run whatever you want 24/7/365. Until then, STFU and Merry Christmas.
Posted By: Eric (Guest) on December 24, 2009 at 07:08 AM"
Except that the billboards are on public busses. When the government does that, its called censorship. Also, censorship should not be the issue here. Whoever had those billboards put up PAID to have them put up, and yes they have a right to have them displayed because in America, we respect each other's property rights.
Posted By: Jlevysan (Guest) on December 24, 2009 at 06:54 PM
How come atheists refuse to make signs regarding Islam and Allah? Shows you how much integrity atheists have.
Posted By: Michael (Guest) on December 24, 2009 at 05:42 PM
That is becuase atheists know they would get their asses kicked if they screwed with Allah. Christians tolerate whiny bitches who disparage their faith.( they pray for them) If they pulled that crap with a muhslim, they would be hearing allah akbar while picking up their teeth.
Posted By: John (Guest) on December 24, 2009 at 07:09 PM
@Omni - "Nothing specifically about just not displaying it during the Hannukah Party being the source of the idea, which one would think they would have mentioned when asked about it back then and cleared this whole thing up with no problems."
They did mention it when Fox News followed up with them.
Desiree Rogers probably picked the wrong choice of words and instead of saying "a more inclusive Christmas" she said "a non-religious Christmas." Her point was clearly that the Obamas wanted a celebration that Jews, Muslims and whoever else ya got wouldn't feel excluded from.
Posted By: J.D. Dunn (Registered) on December 24, 2009 at 07:34 PM
This reminds me of a joke i read in MAD magazine when i was a kid....Who would win in a fight of Jesus Vs. Superman? Superman. because Jesus isn't real. :)
Posted By: Huh? (Guest) on December 24, 2009 at 08:57 PM
God is real. As real as Santa Claus and Batman.
Posted By: Cactus (Guest) on December 24, 2009 at 08:58 PM
Atheism is a religion based outside of any real science or logical thought. You can't prove there is no God, you rely on your faith that there isn't one. There is no way you can use logic to concretely prove God doesn't exist so you are all just as fanatical as the Christian believers you so despise.
Posted By: Guest#9774 (Guest) on December 24, 2009 at 12:59 AM
Simple Logic. In order to even ask whether or not one can prove God's existence, one must first assert that there is a God--an assertion for which they have no evidence. "Faith" is a logical cop out and the beginning fo a circular logic cycle.
So by that logic, if I say I have an invisible elephant named Humphrey that lives inside me, you would be agnostic to this claim, since you can't prove that Humphrey doesn't exist, right? If you claim to be a-Humphrey (as in "a-theist"), you'd be fanatical and illogical...right?
Posted By: Greengo (Guest) on December 24, 2009 at 03:09 PM
Personally, I worship the flying spaghetti monster, but hey to each his own.
Atheists believe in a non-existant eternal universe as the backbone to their beliefs.
No wonder they get laughed at so much.
Posted By: Michael (Guest) on December 23, 2009 at 11:46 PM
First of all, WTF are you talking about? Second, is that any worse than an invisible man in the sky who keeps a score card of everything you do, then determines if you spend the rest of eternity in the center of the earth or in the ionosphere? Just because some anonymous carpenter said it, doesn't make it so.
God is real. As real as Santa Claus and Batman.
Posted By: Cactus (Guest) on December 24, 2009 at 08:58 PM
This statement is patently false. I've seen Batman and Santa Clause in person on TV. I have never seen God's face on TV.
Posted By: black hole of charisma (Guest) on December 25, 2009 at 01:01 AM
Atheism is a religion based outside of any real science or logical thought. You can't prove there is no God, you rely on your faith that there isn't one. There is no way you can use logic to concretely prove God doesn't exist so you are all just as fanatical as the Christian believers you so despise.
Posted By: Guest#9774 (Guest) on December 24, 2009 at 12:59 AM
Atheism means ONE thing, a lack of belief in god. It does NOT mean a belief that god does not exist.
I rely no more on faith that god doesnt exist than I do on faith that Mayor McCheese isn't going to eat my head.
Yes, atheists who are beligerant in their views are annoying. However, considering that the 'War on Terror' is really a religious war, their is ample reason to criticize religion.
Posted By: Guest#0652 (Guest) on December 25, 2009 at 02:38 AM
Atheism is a religion based outside of any real science or logical thought. You can't prove there is no God, you rely on your faith that there isn't one. There is no way you can use logic to concretely prove God doesn't exist so you are all just as fanatical as the Christian believers you so despise"
This guy is amazingly spot on.
Props to you, Atheists are more intolerant than Believers.
Posted By: Respect People Faith Atheists (Guest) on December 25, 2009 at 07:59 AM
Umm, to the commentator above.
Atheist MEANS a belief in no God
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atheism
Posted By: Jerichohill (Guest) on December 25, 2009 at 08:13 AM
@J.D. Dunn: "We celebrate a holiday on the 25th because of the Christian adoption of the pagan holiday Saturnalia, not because of Jesus' birth, which is in June if it happened the way it's written in the Bible."
I was doing some random reading recently and found another reason for the December 25th date for Christmas. Some Christian traditions had it (maybe still do) that Jesus' death was on the anniversary of the annunciation. Some early Christian scholar calculated that the Crucifixion was on March 25; therefore nine months after that was December 25.
Which might be a convenient reasoning for placing Christmas near other such festivals, except that extant historical references to that reasoning predate references to Christmas being close to Saturnalia, etc. by a few centuries.
It doesn't really make any difference to me from a religious standpoint -- I'm Jewish -- but from an intellectual one, it's rather interesting.
Posted By: CDL (Guest) on December 25, 2009 at 09:27 AM
I'm very happy to see the Atheist support, for too long I have been looked down upon in my family for my beliefs. It is nice to see others share my beliefs and are willing to support them.
Posted By: Guest#0156 (Guest) on December 25, 2009 at 02:41 PM
Meh, whatever. For some reason I can't escape the atheist "This is why Christmas is bullshit" stuff this year. Its everywhere. You know what? Don't care. There's probably no God. You're right. But I'll still be over here enjoying the holiday. And to atheists and liberals alike: You only hurt your causes when you're elitist cunts about it.
Posted By: C (Guest) on December 25, 2009 at 05:02 PM
And I'd like to echo the comment above about Islam and Judiasm. Why, short of people like Dawkins and Christopher Hitches that is, do so many treat Atheism as simply anti-Christianity? Have the balls to put some anti-Ramadan signs now and again.
Posted By: C (Guest) on December 25, 2009 at 05:05 PM
There shouldnt really be an argument here because of the fundamental difference between religion and atheism.
Religious people BELIEVE there is a god, Atheists KNOW their isnt a god.
Posted By: Guest#7797 (Guest) on December 25, 2009 at 05:54 PM
I like Christmas. it represents tradition in my life, and any time people can be nicer to each other is never a cause for grief or animous. The people who believe in god and accept Christ's divinity[guilty as charged] will always be seen as cave men and idiots to the idealogicaly gifted students of Berkley and Brown who want to use Christmas as another reason to bang their drum and bitch bitch bitch till they get some attention. Congradulations...Now shut the fuck up and have a merry Christmas... It seams to me that the people who scream the most about personal liberty are the ones who want God taken out of everything...kinda weird isnt it?
Posted By: Jeff Albertson (Guest) on December 25, 2009 at 08:28 PM
I do not know if there is a god or not. I hope there is . I do know this, you atheists come accross as the biggest assholes ever with your smug bullshit. Seriously lame, I would love all of you outspoken dorks to get into a frenzy about Muhammad or Budda. You know why you don't? Its becuase you are a bunch of cowards. That and your liberalism makes it taboo to be religiously intollerant to all faiths accept christianity.
So your a bunch of rude, pussy, libs. Congratulations.
Posted By: Guest#3163 (Guest) on December 25, 2009 at 10:20 PM
Buddhism and Islam? Pardon me, I live in America.
And in America, Muslims and Buddhists aren't trying to institutionalize their religion into the government.
In America, its not the muslims and the Buddhists who say I am un-american.
In America, its not the muslims and the buddhists who say i have no sense of morality or ethics.
In America, its not the muslims and the buddhists who attempt to restrict education because science does not jibe with their belief structure.
In America, its not the muslims and the buddhists who tell me I'll be rich someday if I just give them a whole bunch of money right now.
In America, its not the muslims and the buddhists who tell people to vote in a way that the founder of their religion would find abhorrent.
Do Muslims and Buddhists do all of these things. Yes, of course they do. But in my country, it is Christians, thats why my beef is with them. I'd be perfectly willing to live and let live, except every time I turn around I get bombarded with anti-atheist bile from Christians.
I was actually surprised to learn that what was ruining this country was not irresponsibly piling on national debt, the increasing consolidation of corporate power, or wall street collapsing the economy. It's me, and the fact that I think Christianity is bullshit, that is the true source of all the problems in America.
I, for one, am sick of being told that I am what is wrong with America by people who designate themselves based on belief in a fairy tale written 1500 years ago.
And if Muslims and Buddhists were the ones telling me this, I'd tell them to go fuck themselves. But they aren't, Christians are. So go fuck yourselves.
You say we are cowards for not going after them? I SAY YOU ARE COWARDS FOR NOT BEING WILLING TO FACE THE TRUTH THAT YOUR BELIEFS ARE FICTIONAL.
Posted By: black hole of charisma (Guest) on December 26, 2009 at 03:53 AM
Remember when I said "God is dead?" Now look at me!!! Ooops, sorry, you CAN'T.
Posted By: Friedrich Nietszche (Guest) on December 26, 2009 at 11:01 AM
Again, atheists believe that the universe created itself (hehe). They believe that nothing can create itself out of nothing. (hehe).
How does it feel atheists to know your beliefs are a fairy tale? How does it feel to know you are all laughed at? How does it feel to know you are all weak for criticizing christians but not doing the same of muslims?
Posted By: Michael (Guest) on December 26, 2009 at 11:18 AM
Black hole of charisma,
You sound like a victim.
You might want to look into shari'a law
Posted By: Guest#9392 (Guest) on December 26, 2009 at 12:39 PM
Which is more believable AN/OR verifiable: "the world created by God (or a Supreme Being OR Intelligent Designer, insert name)" or "the world created itself out of NOTHING?" For the first, you'd need to ask whatever created the Universe; for the last one, who or what are you going to ask for an answer?
Posted By: Logical Faith (Guest) on December 26, 2009 at 01:50 PM
... than I do on faith that Mayor McCheese isn't going to eat my head.*
funniest thing ive read all day :)
Posted By: Huh? (Guest) on December 26, 2009 at 01:51 PM
All religion is bullshit.
Posted By: JJ's Guitar (Guest) on December 26, 2009 at 03:36 PM
I wonder if the people that slam Jesus and the bible have ever read the bible or studied it? I mean READ the bible and STUDIED it?
Posted By: Truth (Guest) on December 23, 2009 at 10:10 PM
Based on the comments in this forum, it seems to be the otherway around. Somehow, a LOT of posters seem to think that atheism is this grand philosophy with a well defined set of tenants that all atheists abide by.
Sorry, you're thinking of religion. As an atheist, I ONLY assert that I do NOT have a belief in God. That says NOTHING about my beliefs in the origin of the universe, or morality, or any OTHER topic.
As for those of you questioning our integrity because we aren't calling out Allah.. when in Rome. If/when sharia law is about to be implemented in America, I'll have motivation to speak up.
Finally, consider that the reason we dont carry about public execution based on religious law in THIS country is because science and logic has eroded the influence of religion in Western society.
Posted By: Guest#5256 (Guest) on December 26, 2009 at 04:04 PM
Christianity is not about religion, Jesus broke all tradition when he died on the cross, that is why we don't sacrifice animals and build altars and other things like that. Christianity is about a relationship with Jesus Christ who is, whether you you believe or not, the one true God. The thing about God is that if you don't want to believe in Him then you don't have to. It's okay to be Atheist or Islam or Buddhist or whatever because God gave us the ability to make our own decisions, however the only way to Him is through belief. He doesn't force you to believe in Him. If you choose not to belive then fine. But don't mock my beliefs just because you do not believe in them as well. I don't mock atheists, as much as I disagree with their views. But regardless of what you believe, there is one thing we all share. We are all human, so why can't we treat each other as such? I don't see atheists or buddhists or muslims or jews, I see human beings, I see people. People who have a right to choose what they want to believe.
Posted By: Rob (Guest) on December 26, 2009 at 05:11 PM
Atheists don't care about anyone but themselves, they only want to prove to everyone wrong. Which will never happen considering that the only way to find out if there is a god is to die. I guess no one will know unless they find out themselves. So I dare all of you atheists to commit mass suicide and find out if there is an afterlife. Whether there is or not, problem solved.
Posted By: Guest (Guest) on December 26, 2009 at 05:18 PM
My 5 year old daughter saw one of those signs and started crying and asking me if the sign was true. I raise my daughter to live a christian lifestyle and hopefully she will continue that lifestyle when she can make her own decisions. But right now she loves God and it is obvious that self righteous atheists don't care about that, all they care about is themselves.
Posted By: Christina (Guest) on December 26, 2009 at 05:27 PM
"As for those of you questioning our integrity because we aren't calling out Allah.. when in Rome. If/when sharia law is about to be implemented in America, I'll have motivation to speak up."
No you would not. You would cower down in front of a mullah, begging to negotiate. Please don't cut off my head, I will not be a infidel. Give me a robe, point me to mecca, I surrender!! I am a liberal! I am nuanced.
By the way, didn't Barry say America is one of the biggest muslim countries?
How are those womens rights working out for the religion of peace?
Face it, you and your ilk are hypocrites who are not against religion, your against christianity.
Thats why people hate you and have no respect for your boorish behavior. You are coward, hypoctitcal, pansy, appeasing, miserable assholes.
Just wear it. I would have more respect for you.
Posted By: Guest#3957 (Guest) on December 26, 2009 at 06:35 PM
Meh, whatever. For some reason I can't escape the atheist "This is why Christmas is bullshit" stuff this year. Its everywhere. You know what? Don't care. There's probably no God. You're right. But I'll still be over here enjoying the holiday. And to atheists and liberals alike: You only hurt your causes when you're elitist cunts about it.
Posted By: C (Guest) on December 25, 2009 at 05:02 PM
Well said and true. I think most of the liberals in here take pride in being cunts during christmas. Its a way for them to get attention.
Posted By: Scott Levy (Guest) on December 26, 2009 at 06:40 PM
Well seeing that this site has people on from around the world, I would expect all the atheist hate mongers to come back and say the same things during Eid Al-Fitr and Eid Al-Adha.
Seeing that there are a billion muslims and all. You need to act like asses with their holidays as well.
Posted By: John (Guest) on December 26, 2009 at 06:44 PM
My 5 year old daughter saw one of those signs and started crying and asking me if the sign was true. I raise my daughter to live a christian lifestyle and hopefully she will continue that lifestyle when she can make her own decisions. But right now she loves God and it is obvious that self righteous atheists don't care about that, all they care about is themselves.
Posted By: Christina (Guest) on December 26, 2009 at 05:27 PM
Or.. maybe if you had explained to your daughter that there is a very, very, very small group of people who dont believe in God, she might have been prepared to deal with it?
Instead, I'm guessing you've been indoctrinating her by taking her to a giant building where people recite lines in unison and talk about how if you do believe in God you get to live forever and if you dont.. you burn forever in eternity.
If that IS the case, then its no wonder she was crying. Just like the poor kids in 'Jesus Camp' you've laid some pretty powerful stuff on a person way too young to grapple with such issues.
Posted By: Guest#1375 (Guest) on December 26, 2009 at 09:27 PM
Atheists don't care about anyone but themselves, they only want to prove to everyone wrong. Which will never happen considering that the only way to find out if there is a god is to die. I guess no one will know unless they find out themselves. So I dare all of you atheists to commit mass suicide and find out if there is an afterlife. Whether there is or not, problem solved.
Posted By: Guest (Guest) on December 26, 2009 at 05:18 PM
Because if you cant attack the message, attack the messanger.. in a very lame way that contributes nothing to the conversation.
Posted By: Guest#6682 (Guest) on December 26, 2009 at 09:29 PM
We are all human, so why can't we treat each other as such? I don't see atheists or buddhists or muslims or jews, I see human beings, I see people. People who have a right to choose what they want to believe.
Posted By: Rob (Guest) on December 26, 2009 at 05:11 PM
Because, unfortunately, several of those groups you listed above base their lives on adherence to books which are exclusive and incompatible with the rest. That tends to lead to wars.. lots of wars.
Posted By: Guest#8612 (Guest) on December 26, 2009 at 09:32 PM
But right now she loves God and it is obvious that self righteous atheists don't care about that, all they care about is themselves.
Posted By: Christina (Guest) on December 26, 2009 at 05:27 PM
Yep, ALL people who lack a belief in God are ALL self-righteous and only care about themselves. Just like people who dont believe in gravity, or in the merits of a 'flat tax'.
Just like ALL "self-righteous" Christians speak in tongues, think man existed with dinosaurs, and attend Klan meetings on the weekends. It's really just that simple, isnt it?
As for the sign on the bus, I'll remember that next time I see ANOTHER car with a "wages of sin is death" bumpersticker, or the 'abortion van' that drives around the city I live in. That's a real subtle expression of a viewpoint.
Posted By: Guest#5855 (Guest) on December 26, 2009 at 10:58 PM
Atheists are laughed at constantly. They can't explain how the universe was created and when you tell them an eternal universe is scientifically impossible, they begin stuttering and blabbing about the spaghetti monster. Weak counter argument.
Posted By: Michael (Guest) on December 27, 2009 at 12:22 AM
As A Christian I will be happily watching you all brun in hell. Go fuck yourself!
Posted By: Guest#2741 (Guest) on December 27, 2009 at 12:09 PM
Just like ALL "self-righteous" Christians speak in tongues, think man existed with dinosaurs, and attend Klan meetings on the weekends. It's really just that simple, isnt it?
As for the sign on the bus, I'll remember that next time I see ANOTHER car with a "wages of sin is death" bumpersticker, or the 'abortion van' that drives around the city I live in. That's a real subtle expression of a viewpoint.
Posted By: Guest#5855 (Guest) on December 26, 2009 at 10:58 PM
Klan meetings? You do know a large portion of the african american community is christian and that would probably offend them asshole.
Your excuse for the sign on the bus is some bumper sticker offended you? Well then, put up the same sign aimed at muslims during their most important holiday. You won't, becuase your a spinless coward who would not like the backlash.
I will leave you with this, do you think muslims agree with abortion and sinful behavior?
Posted By: Guest#5252 (Guest) on December 27, 2009 at 12:53 PM
Atheists don't care about anyone but themselves, they only want to prove to everyone wrong. Which will never happen considering that the only way to find out if there is a god is to die. I guess no one will know unless they find out themselves. So I dare all of you atheists to commit mass suicide and find out if there is an afterlife. Whether there is or not, problem solved.
Posted By: Guest (Guest) on December 26, 2009 at 05:18 PM
Because if you cant attack the message, attack the messanger.. in a very lame way that contributes nothing to the conversation.
Posted By: Guest#6682 (Guest) on December 26, 2009 at 09:29 PM
messanger? Learn how to spell you atheist dick.
Posted By: Scott Levy (Guest) on December 27, 2009 at 12:56 PM
Wait...belief in the existence of an eternal Universe isn't scientific...but belief in a Supreme Being IS?
Honestly, do you people even read what you write or are you simply randomly slapping away at the keyboard?
Posted By: Bsquare (Guest) on December 27, 2009 at 02:05 PM
I am just a brain in a vat. None of this is real.
Posted By: Covers everything (Guest) on December 27, 2009 at 02:07 PM
Buddhism and Islam? Pardon me, I live in America.
And in America, Muslims and Buddhists aren't trying to institutionalize their religion into the government.
In America, its not the muslims and the Buddhists who say I am un-american.
In America, its not the muslims and the buddhists who say i have no sense of morality or ethics.
In America, its not the muslims and the buddhists who attempt to restrict education because science does not jibe with their belief structure.
In America, its not the muslims and the buddhists who tell me I'll be rich someday if I just give them a whole bunch of money right now.
In America, its not the muslims and the buddhists who tell people to vote in a way that the founder of their religion would find abhorrent.
Do Muslims and Buddhists do all of these things. Yes, of course they do. But in my country, it is Christians, thats why my beef is with them. I'd be perfectly willing to live and let live, except every time I turn around I get bombarded with anti-atheist bile from Christians.
I was actually surprised to learn that what was ruining this country was not irresponsibly piling on national debt, the increasing consolidation of corporate power, or wall street collapsing the economy. It's me, and the fact that I think Christianity is bullshit, that is the true source of all the problems in America.
I, for one, am sick of being told that I am what is wrong with America by people who designate themselves based on belief in a fairy tale written 1500 years ago.
And if Muslims and Buddhists were the ones telling me this, I'd tell them to go fuck themselves. But they aren't, Christians are. So go fuck yourselves.
You say we are cowards for not going after them? I SAY YOU ARE COWARDS FOR NOT BEING WILLING TO FACE THE TRUTH THAT YOUR BELIEFS ARE FICTIONAL.
Posted By: black hole of charisma (Guest) on December 26, 2009 at 03:53 AM
_______________________________________
So, christians piss you off, therefore, God doesn't exist? Nice logic there, pal.
Posted By: Jordan (Guest) on December 27, 2009 at 03:31 PM
Why do people still argue about religion on the internet? It never ends. Its just "no u!" "no u!" "no u!" "no u!" and on and on and on and on and on...just make your own damn decision and don't be a dick.
Posted By: Al Bundy (Guest) on December 27, 2009 at 07:23 PM
An eternal universe is scientifically impossible due to the law of entropy and thermodynamics. Poor atheists. How does it feel to know you are now grasping at straws?
Posted By: Michael (Guest) on December 27, 2009 at 08:22 PM
So, christians piss you off, therefore, God doesn't exist? Nice logic there, pal.
Posted By: Jordan (Guest) on December 27, 2009 at 03:31 PM
You would think that piece of crap would be pissed at muslims who legitimatly want to change the nature of America to represent their represive faith. No such luck.
By the way, its been 2 days since a muslim terrorist tried to bring down a plane in Detroit, yet nothing from Dunn, Rivett or Zimmer. Shocking. They are probably all trying to spin it so its the fault of Bush, Palin, Beck and christians
Posted By: John (Guest) on December 27, 2009 at 10:29 PM
"a LOT of posters seem to think that atheism is this grand philosophy with a well defined set of tenants that all atheists abide by."
Funny how the way religious people try to "put down" atheism is by trying to make it more like your own beliefs. Seems like a lot of them know that their beliefs are complete nonsense but need the great teddy bear of religion to keep them from throwing a tantrum at the fact that they're going to die one day.
I will proudly admit any time that I don't know how or if the universe began. I'd rather accept my lack of knowledge than conjure up some bullshit fairy tale to help me sleep at night.
Religion (regardless of which pretend deity it falls under) is evil and the responses in this thread provide good evidence of the lobotomizing effect it has on otherwise rational and peaceful people. Michael is a perfect example, spouting how an eternal universe is impossible but an eternal being that just appeared one day to create said universe makes perfect sense.
I have no hostility towards religious people (as they're usually pretty helpless to beliefs that have been forced upon them, and their minds have been weakened by years of indoctrination), but the parasitic beliefs that have worn out their welcome and then some have to go.
We've done it god's way for a few thousand years now and clearly it hasn't really worked very well.
Posted By: Frank (Guest) on December 27, 2009 at 10:33 PM
have no hostility towards religious people (as they're usually pretty helpless to beliefs that have been forced upon them, and their minds have been weakened by years of indoctrination), but the parasitic beliefs that have worn out their welcome and then some have to go.
We've done it god's way for a few thousand years now and clearly it hasn't really worked very well.
Posted By: Frank (Guest) on December 27, 2009 at 10:33 PM
Have to go? Go where Frank? You going to round us up tough guy? I triple dog dare you an your ilk to try to advocate that. It will the ass kicking of a lifetime, something you smug pricks have needed for quite awhile now.
So go on this site, Kos, Huffington, Msnbc and talk of us "having to go" Try to take away our freedom, who will be next? White, conservative men? People from Alabama? What are you going to do with black christians, re-educate them?
How progressive.
Posted By: Frank is a Nazi (Guest) on December 27, 2009 at 11:00 PM
Frank, either way we are both identical in that we are holding onto beliefs. Yes, you atheists are fundamentally holding onto a belief that the universe created itself out of nothing. Just like anyone who is religious are holding onto their beliefs.
The sooner atheists are more tolerant of other religious beliefs, you will be treated with respect.
Posted By: Michael (Guest) on December 28, 2009 at 12:14 AM
The written records of Christian origins are available in far greater number and antiquity than are those of any other personages or happenings in the whole history of the world prior to the invention of the printing press! No one, for example, ever doubts for an instant that a man named Julius Caesar once ruled as an emperor of Rome. But the manuscript evidence for the New Testament events is incomparably superior to that for the existence of Caesar! Nothing even remotely comparable exists for any other ancient writings - including all of the other religions in the world put together. If one still doubts the transmission and authenticity of the Gospels, then to be consistent he would have to dismiss Plato, Caesar, Aristotle, and all the rest. This conclusion is inescapable since the New Testament is unsurpassed in the very evidentiary elements of the bibliographical test that authenticates all of the other literature.
These manuscripts survived despite the most intense eradication effort imaginable. Christians were killed, written records were burned, and edicts were issued to destroy all of the world’s Bibles and people even found with them were killed. Nevertheless, from this relatively small population base (world population at that time was only 138-170 million) the manuscripts continued to be hand copied in such great number. What motivated such extensive work? Why have not other religions, with less persecution, which had prominent leaders who had public ministries for the duration of their lifetimes, rather than the short three-year ministry of Christ produced similar evidence?
"Christian Truth and Its Defense"
Posted By: samsung_upstage_sux (Guest) on December 28, 2009 at 03:59 AM
An eternal universe is scientifically impossible due to the law of entropy and thermodynamics. Poor atheists. How does it feel to know you are now grasping at straws?
Posted By: Michael (Guest) on December 27, 2009 at 08:22 PM
Hey Michael...would help to know what your are talking about...first off second law of thermodynamics only applies to closed systems and The universe if it's eternal or not, is certainly not a closed system. And Entropy is determined by the number of ways you could achieve a state, disorder is defined by the amount of violation of an ordering rule, therefore Entropy is NOT disorder, therefore is NOT scientifically impossible as you state, as a matter of fact there hasn't been a clear ruling one way or the other.
Secondly taking this middle school mentality of physics is rather embarrassing. You might want to read "A Briefer History of Time" by Stephen Hawking to catch up on things...as there isn't enough space here to explain these area's of physics to you in detail.
Posted By: johnny (Guest) on December 28, 2009 at 11:15 AM
"Fact is we celebrate a holiday on the 25th of Decemeber because of Jesus birth and his impact in the world."
December 25th is an invention of the Gregorian calender... idiot.
Posted By: Guest#9955 (Guest) on January 04, 2010 at 02:42 PM
A friend at Christmas time: Hey A.G. what do you believe in?
A.G. Awesome: I dont talk about religion to people anymore.
Friend: Why is that?
A.G. Awesome: Because the last time I talked about it I wound up kicking the person's ass for being belligerent towards my beliefs.
See there everyone? You just dont talk about religion anymore or you either kick someones ass or get your ass kicked.
That aint what religion (and non/anti religion) is all about. It is about having convictions and morals (based on whatever you believe in) to get you through the day until you eventually "kick the bucket".
Go to work, make some money, celebrate some good times with your family around the end of the year. And dont hate on anyone who choose to do the same, or expect some serious consequences.
I hate liberals and conservatives. Religious fanatics and atheist fanatics. If you people keep up with this bullshit parade then maybe a dictator should sneak in when you arnt paying attention, take over, and take away all your precious "liberties". Then I bet youll all finally start getting along.
Posted By: AG Awesome (Guest) on January 06, 2010 at 07:45 AM
STAY CURRENT