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 411mania » Politics » Blog Entry
Teabagged
Posted by Robert Zimmer on 03.10.2010



I'm loathe to write anything more about health care because as President Obama mentioned a couple of times this week, pretty much all the arguments have been had, all the ideas put forth, and the complexities contemplated. But the current Republican meme, that the current health care reform legislation isn't bipartisan, just isn't true.

This vital fact has been lost or forgotten by the media in the last year, chock full as it was of staged town hall protests, lies about death panels, and Senate Democrats taking so long to pass health care legislation that they forgot to defend Ted Kennedy's former Senate seat and thus jeopardized the entire reform enchilada. But in June 2009, a set of comprehensive policy recommendations for health care reform was released by a bipartisan health care commission chaired by former Senators Howard Baker (R-Tennessee), Bob Dole (R-Kansas) and Tom Daschle (D-South Dakota) and including former George W. Bush health care advisor Mark McClellan and Chris Jennings, who held a similar post under President Clinton -- hardly a group of Berkeley hippies. Congressional leaders didn't ignore the report; in fact, virtually every recommendation of the Leaders' Project on the State of American Health Care, as the commission was dubbed, made it into the health care reform legislation that passed both the House and the Senate last year. The substance of these recommendations are also consistent with the final legislative fixes to those bills, which Congressional Democrats hope to pass with a majority vote and which President Obama intends to sign into law within the next few weeks.

Also lost and forgotten is the fact that the Senate Finance Committee, including 10 Republican senators like Chuck Grassley (R-Iowa), Olympia Snowe (R-ME), and Mike Enzi (R-WY) spent months last year crafting (using the Leaders' Project as a blueprint) what became, in large part, the final Senate health care legislation. So, the reform legislation passed by the House and Senate is already bipartisan, and really has been from the beginning. Furthermore, after the president's recent health care summit, he publicly announced he would include three additional Republican proposals in the final legislative package. So why, if Republican ideas are in the core of the legislation and always have been, are Republicans insisting upon trying to use the filibuster to block the final legislative fixes to health care reform?

Sadly, politics has entirely trumped policy for the Republicans since the inception of the Obama administration. Determined to create a self-fulfilling prophecy that government is broken, the same Republican members of Congress who destroyed the economy during the Bush years have brought all legislative work in the Senate to fix that mess to a complete halt -- with unprecedented abuse of the filibuster. The Associated Press reported last week that the Republicans have set an all-time record for use of the filibuster to stall or block legislation -- over 150 times in the past 15 months, more than tripling the previous record which took an entire two years (1995-1996) to amass. (The Republican freakout over the use of reconciliation to pass the final fixes to the health care legislation is faux; they used it to pass Bush's trillion-dollar tax cuts for the rich in 2001 and 2003.)

Worse, Republicans who actively helped craft the health care legislation now flap their peacock feathers on cable TV and decry health care reform as fiscally reckless, when in fact the nonpartisan Congressional Budget Office estimates the reform will reduce the deficit by a $1.3 trillion, while covering over 30 million more Americans, curbing the horrifying practices of the health insurance companies, and lowering premiums and other health care costs for all Americans. Or, Republicans repeat other long-debunked talking points about a "government takeover" of health care, when the public option didn't even make it into the final legislation, or other assorted the-sky-will-fall prevarications. My favorite recent stunt is Sen. John Cornyn (R-TX) vowing that the GOP will run this fall on a platform to repeal health care. I'd like to see him take the insurance away from the 30 million who will have it for the first time, or those dying of cancer who can no longer have their coverage rescinded right before they start chemotherapy, or folks whose pre-existing conditions no longer will mean they are uninsurable. The political ads write themselves -- a poor, sick family stares into the camera and their haggard father solemnly vows, "John Cornyn will take our health insurance from my cold, dead hands." It's not quite Charlton Heston at an NRA convention, but it's powerful stuff that will result in a Republican bloodbath if they are foolish enough to try it. The GOP was not simply content to take your civil liberties away from you in a time of (pointless) war; they might just take your darn health insurance away too if you don't shut up and obey Rush Limbaugh. (On his radio show this week, Limbaugh vowed he would move out of the country if health care reform worked. This is the first selfless thing I can recall Limbaugh offering to do for America.)

What's tragic is that most of the Republicans who worked on this health care legislation, and who are serious about health care policy, know that it will work if it passes. (And when it does, Republican talk of repealing health care will vanish faster than cockroaches when you turn on the kitchen light.) What is unforgivable is that none of them will vote for it -- when they could simply take credit for its eventual successes along with their Democratic colleagues. Instead, imprisoned by the ideological extremists who control the GOP, moderate Republicans walk an impossible contradiction, voting for and publicly trashing legislation their own party statesmen helped generate, and which they all privately know will succeed in bettering the life of all Americans, not just a wealthy few.

This worsening disgrace arises from the moderate Republicans' obedience to the Fear Factor that rules the GOP. Republicans are terrified of the Tea Party movement in large part because they have no idea what it all means or what these people really stand for. The GOP has simply attempted to align itself with the most readily available anti-government group; most of the Tea Party movement is poorly organized and ripe for manipulation by sophisticated GOP astroturf operations. But the non-evangelical (and thus endangered) segment of the Republican establishment is in large part privately contemptuous in its feelings about the Tea Party movement. The Tea Partiers, while uncomfortably all-white, less-educated, and rural in demographic makeup, is partially comprised simply of common-sense Americans who are disgusted with the spending and size of the federal government; they had no more love for the economic policies of George W. Bush than they do for Barack Obama's. People who supported Ron Paul in 2008, or Ross Perot in 1992, had to go somewhere with their frustrations, after all, and many of those people became Tea Partiers. But the Tea Party is also heavily populated and controlled -- like the GOP itself -- by a lunatic element drunk on evangelical religion and anti-science drivel.

Where the Tea Party has crossbred with the Republican religious right, a dangerous monster has been created -- the Tea Baggers. The Tea Partiers are nothing to be scared of; in fact, smart Democrats and Republicans alike should embrace them. But the Tea Baggers are something moderates of any political stripe should be genuinely afraid of, not because these Tea Baggers are correct about much, unlike the Ron Paul Tea Partiers, but because they are by and large utterly devoid of actual rational public policy ideas and utterly overflowing with evangelical non-sequiturs popularized by the likes of Sarah Palin, who told a crowd this week that she writes reminders on her hand like she did at the CPAC convention last month because a Bible verse sanctions the idea. (Palin also admitted this week that she used to take her family to Canada to take advantage of the Canucks' free health care. Amazing that a death panel didn't ensnare one of Palin's kids, right?)

For the Tea Baggers and their Pied Palins, Jesus will come back to earth in their lifetimes, universal health insurance is a tool of the Devil, Obama is the Muslim-Socialist- Antichrist, nobody should pay any taxes and Congress should keep its government hands off their Medicare. There's no reasoning with people who suffer from a collective bout of schizophrenia like this; we can only hope to contain them or give them their own country. After all, Texas Governor Rick Perry (R-TX) likes to tease his Tea Bagger base with naughty thoughts of secession from the Union, but a better idea would be to take a state like Alaska and just ship all the Tea Baggers there to live under the rule of Queen Sarah, where they will be entirely free of taxes, health care, and reason; and also free to use as much Aqua Net as they like because cow farts are the real cause of global warming (Amen).

Will health care reform legislation finally pass this month, after sixty years of trying? Too soon to tell. But if the legislation fails, it won't be because it isn't bipartisan, or because it wouldn't work. It will be because a few irrational Republicans -- who know better -- allowed themselves to be tea-bagged into a fearful corner. They should be ashamed of themselves, because the politics of fear should never triumph over policies of hope. And you should never settle for being tea bagged when you can have a tea party instead.

Just in case there are any readers as wonky as me, you can visit the bipartisan health care commission's website here.


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Comments (45)

 
I don't think the Tea Party knows what it wants. They say they are for less government spending, yet are against something that will save the government a good chunk of cash with health reform. The GOP is not going to be able to control them and they will cause more problems like they did in New York in 2012 then anything the Dems do. The Democrats should pass Health Care just so they can move on to the summer where they can focus on other matters. Even in Texas, they changed the tone, but really did nothing. They should be ignored then anything else.

Posted By: AFan (Guest)  on March 10, 2010 at 10:42 AM

 
 
The whole flip flop thing is the dumbest term to ever enter politics. The idea that a person, with new information, cannot change there mind on an issue it just so stupid.

So if your for or against something, and new information comes to light that changes your view this is now a bad thing and you are labeled a flip floper? So you should just stay the course even if that course leads to ruin?

So staying the course REGARDLESS of ANY new information that comes across is ok?

I'm no lover and republicans or democrats...I agree with Jesse Ventura who says both will be the demise of the country because neither party is really for the people but out for themselves, and the sooner the American people realize this and try and change this the better we will be...but this whole flip flop thing is just dumb and needs to go away.


Posted By: jared (Guest)  on March 10, 2010 at 10:59 AM

 
 
I'm still waiting to see an article written by either you or Joe whose focus is about the negatives of those on the left and or in the White House.

As for flip flopping, all politicians do it. I'm not excusing the Republicans, but if you're going to write an article about flip-flopping, I think it is only fair to quote President Obama from well over a year ago saying he would never dare even suggest reconciliation as he deemed it far too divisive and counter-productive. Obviously, he has flip flopped. Whether he is right or wrong is a matter for debate, but flip flopping is something he has done.

Again...not trying to excuse the Republicans or any politician for switching stances. All I am asking for is that if you're going to report on the shortcomings of one group in a particular area, it seems only fair to report the shortcomings of ALL groups of that area.


Posted By: Chris-Chicago (Guest)  on March 10, 2010 at 11:06 AM

 
 
Zimmer, Freedom. Freedom, Zimmer.

You guys have a lot to talk about.


Posted By: ugh... (Guest)  on March 10, 2010 at 12:49 PM

 
 
The 1.3 trillion dollar savings number is laughable. The CBO stated it COULD SAVE UP TO 132 BILLION over ten years. Obama stated the 1 trillion dollar number yesterday and quickly had to backtrack stating the 1 trillion dollars would be saved in the SECOND ten year period, a number the CBO has stated can not be verified.

You just failed.

By the way, the dems had a filibuster proof 60 seat majority in the senate and still failed getting their bill passed. If you want to blame anyone, look in the mirror lib.


Posted By: John (Guest)  on March 10, 2010 at 01:23 PM

 
 
Dont even start with the philabuster shit. youre a liar right off the bat. The left have been high fiving themselves over the SUPERMAJORITY PHILABUSTER PROOF SENATE that they didnt do anything with it. With the majority they had...HAD...They did nothing but spend a year sending the president off to do Leno and letterman and the view [not to mention the useless appeal for the olympics to come to chicago]. People like you are so fucking smug and you like to look down on people from your intellectual perch. So what if some people believe in God and you believe in the pied piper of chicago. The Man has had a year with a SUPERMAJORITY PHILABUSTER PROOF SENATE and he did nothing with it but purchase a ticket back to Chicago in 2012 belie dat playa

Posted By: Jeff Albertson (Guest)  on March 10, 2010 at 01:46 PM

 
 
"So if your for or against something, and new information comes to light that changes your view this is now a bad thing and you are labeled a flip floper? So you should just stay the course even if that course leads to ruin?

So staying the course REGARDLESS of ANY new information that comes across is ok?"

Which is fine. The problem is that many of the Republicans decrying the health care bill were involved in writing it. There hasn't been enough substantial new information released in the last year that could change someone's mind if they themselves had a hand in crafting the bill. In fact, as mentioned, a lot of information being released actually supports the bill. So the only real option here is that they're scared of this lunatic drive off the ledge by certain portions of the Tea Party movement. Which is sad because there isn't any real consensus on what the Tea Party actually is. It's a mish-mash of conflicting ideologies, opportunists, and normal people all squabbling over what any of it actually means. The fact that a good portion has already been alienated by the inclusion of people like Sarah Palin should give a clear indication that no one has any idea what's going on.


Posted By: Guest#3767 (Guest)  on March 10, 2010 at 02:45 PM

 
 
Tea Baggers? Seriously? I cant be the only one laughing at that name and seeing someone write over and over about being tea bagged. It cant be just me, can it?

Posted By: Huh? (Guest)  on March 10, 2010 at 02:59 PM

 
 
Wow. So many angry, angry commentors. I appreciate your column Zimmer; I, at least, have a college level education. Or does that make me an elitist?

Posted By: what?589 (Guest)  on March 10, 2010 at 03:18 PM

 
 
Everything is republican fault, check

Obama bitches about reconciation under the Bush presidency but has no problem doing itself, showing left wing hypocracy and Zimmer calls republicans flip floppers? Liberal spin, check

Religious slams, check

Tea bag reference, check

Bad finacial numbers from left wing sites that the administration has admitted were overstated, check

Statements that republicans are going to pay for their opposition of health care in November, check (insane and wrong, but check)

Yeah, its a typical Zimmer article.


You can read this crap every day on the Daily Kos and Huffington Post. Its tired and lame.


Posted By: Guest#8265 (Guest)  on March 10, 2010 at 03:20 PM

 
 
"The Man has had a year with a SUPERMAJORITY PHILABUSTER PROOF SENATE and he did nothing with it"

the crazy thing about this is if he just said ef it and pushed through everything he wanted then the whole "he's a socialist non-american dictator" narrative the repubs and racists (yes im sorry but come on!) have pushing (quite effectively i might add) would take over. So what he did was take a more moderate middle of the road bill i.e no public option then his own spineless party (liberals and dean im looking at you!!) turn on him. so really its a no win situation.

I must admit as an independent repubs DO have BALLS, no shame at all, but huge balls and are very effective politicians. Dems on the other hand....

American's respect power and success more than any virtues we pretend to support. Getting things done even if we dont like it matter more than anythings else. Thats what i learned during the Bush years maybe one of these Century's Dems will get that.


Posted By: tonyblunt (Guest)  on March 10, 2010 at 03:30 PM

 
 
In Zimmers world, I bet its the republicans fault that there was a "Louisiana purchase" and a "Cornhusker kickback"

Hope and change


Posted By: Guest#4334 (Guest)  on March 10, 2010 at 03:47 PM

 
 
The writer says that Palin used Canadian health care but leaves out the Canadian parlament office holder who went to Florida for surgery. I guess that didn't help his cause. This is one of the most biased piece I have read in quite awhile. Blaming everything on republicans when the have no power is pathetic. This is what you get when you read about politics on a pop culture website.

Posted By: Fred (Guest)  on March 10, 2010 at 03:54 PM

 
 
Is there a reliable source on this 1.3 trillion dollar savings statment? I can't find anything involving the CBO that says that.

If this 1.3 trillion dollar number is true, theb why am I just hearing it now? I have a hard time believing that adding 30 million people and having the goverment involved is going to save a trillion dollars.

If this is a fictitious number, then there needs to be a retraction.


Posted By: Feed Taylor Swift (Guest)  on March 10, 2010 at 04:04 PM

 
 
"The 1.3 trillion dollar savings number is laughable. The CBO stated it COULD SAVE UP TO 132 BILLION over ten years. Obama stated the 1 trillion dollar number yesterday and quickly had to backtrack stating the 1 trillion dollars would be saved in the SECOND ten year period, a number the CBO has stated can not be verified.

You just failed.

By the way, the dems had a filibuster proof 60 seat majority in the senate and still failed getting their bill passed. If you want to blame anyone, look in the mirror lib."

This.

To the fellow who says the Tea Party (which, I should remind you, is NOT an actual party...just a movement) doesn't know what it wants: We know what we want; we just aren't naive enough to believe government run health care isn't going to cost us a dime.


Posted By: Gustov (Guest)  on March 10, 2010 at 04:27 PM

 
 
The whole flip flop thing is the dumbest term to ever enter politics. The idea that a person, with new information, cannot change there mind on an issue it just so stupid.

So if your for or against something, and new information comes to light that changes your view this is now a bad thing and you are labeled a flip floper? So you should just stay the course even if that course leads to ruin?

So staying the course REGARDLESS of ANY new information that comes across is ok?

I'm no lover and republicans or democrats...I agree with Jesse Ventura who says both will be the demise of the country because neither party is really for the people but out for themselves, and the sooner the American people realize this and try and change this the better we will be...but this whole flip flop thing is just dumb and needs to go away.

Posted By: jared (Guest) on March 10, 2010 at 10:59 AM



I couldn't possibly agree with this more. Theres nothing I can even add other than my support.


Posted By: stronelis (Guest)  on March 10, 2010 at 04:49 PM

 
 
Once again, you try to take a cheap shot at Palin and get the facts wrong. Her parents took her brother to Canada for some emergency treatment. She was a kid, she didn't takee anyone anywhere. Also, this happened before Canada changed their system, so they went when it wasn't socialized.

You sir are either too blinded by hatred of her or too lazy to check your facts (or both). Your writing is sloppy, insults childish and played out and grasp on reason and basic economic principles non-existent.

In other words, you must write for the Olbermann or Matthews shows.


Posted By: Chris Connolly (Guest)  on March 10, 2010 at 05:02 PM

 
 
Calling Dr. Frued! Dr. Sigmund Frued.

Funny, I have heard the same arguments on two radio stations and another print source today. And of course everything is the fault of the Republicans.

Question to supporters. honest question. How does the plan handle those among us that currently do not pay income taxes and decide to not purchase insurance? If I qualify for the Earned Income Tax Credit and do not purchase health care, does your policy cut the EITC benefit by the amount of the mandatory healthcare payments? I don't know the answer.

How do you force the purchase of government health insurance on those who derive their income from government subsidy? Is the Federal Government going to cut AFCD subsidies to people that do not buy health care?

Would they be turned-away at hospital emergency rooms?

Any information on the question would be most appreciated.

"Reeeepooooortingggggg for Duuuuuuuttyy"


Posted By: AdmChesterMynutz (Guest)  on March 10, 2010 at 05:44 PM

 
 
Here are some facts: The creation of Fannie and Freddie to "buy" subprime loans off of banks books so that banks could make more bad loans was one of the factors in cratering the economy. These loans were made in the first place by the originators (the banks) because of racial pressure brought down on them by the likes of ACORN and the federally crafted Community Reinvestment Act, which was aggresively enforced by Janet Reno and the Clinton administration. Again, government interfering in the market.

When the Wall Street Journal sounded the alarm about Fannie and Freddie back in the early 2000's, people like Barney Frank ignored it and even attacked those critics as being anti-housing for poor people.

These were all "progressively" designed programs that annihilated our economy. Now the same clowns who did that want to remake 17% of the economy and place it on the slow death march toward total government control with this abomination of a health care bill.

The tea parties recognize this and are fighting against it. You can believe whatever it is some overeducated lesbian from Harvard tells you and the seventeen other people who watch her show every night, but those are the facts.

Oh, and the "death panels" are real. They're damn real. It's not called the death panel in the bill, but whetever Orwellian name they have come up with for it disguises what it's true intent is. An unelected, unaccountable bereaucracy meant to evaluate whether your treatment is cost worthy. Kind of like the stuff you rail against insurance companies for, except the one thing your progressive puppet masters don't tell you is that insurance companies already have the government halfway up their shirt. It's like you blaming your hand for punching somebody in the face.

I read this article and shake my head at the blind faith in government you have. Bottom line is, you are telling us that politicians-POLITICIANS-are the ones we need to keep insurance companies "honest". An absolutely unbelievable and laughable position.


Posted By: Da Man (Guest)  on March 10, 2010 at 05:48 PM

 
 
Huh sounds like a 12 year old who thinks Keith Olbermann and Bill Maher are hilarious.

Posted By: Guest#3053 (Guest)  on March 10, 2010 at 06:26 PM

 
 
If you're too stupid to fight for health care for free, and to write a letter to your congressman to get it, you deserve to die.

Time to trim the fat, as they say.

The Tea Party are ironically the reason Eugenics was implemented to begin with.

If they are SO racist they'd rather die than accept a handout...F the SOUTH.


Posted By: Eugene (Guest)  on March 10, 2010 at 07:47 PM

 
 
I don't belong to an organized political party...I'm a Democrat.

Posted By: Will Rogers (Guest)  on March 10, 2010 at 08:16 PM

 
 
Whatever it is, we're against it!

Posted By: Groucho Marx (Guest)  on March 10, 2010 at 08:17 PM

 
 
Whatever it is, We're against it!

Posted By: The Republican Party (Guest)  on March 10, 2010 at 08:17 PM

 
 
The media is keeping the focus on health care and the tea party movement because EVERYONE in Washington has seen the writing on the wall. While true MOST of the citizenry of the USA havent a clue in hell about what they truly want, the fact remains that people in this country are BEGINNING TO WAKE UP.

They see LARGE, LIFE-ALTERING, NATION-CHANGING things going on and now more people are paying attention. I took the Nolan Test to see where my politics tend to put me...was relieved to see libertarian. Now im no gun toting, survivalist militia member. I DID however happen to have taken CIVICS in my school days and they actually let me read the Declaration of Independence, Constitution AND the Bill Of Rights for myself. How many of you can actually sit there and recite the Preamble to the Constitution from memory...go ahead Ill wait.

See? I highly suggest all of you actually go and read those documents. DONT LET SOMEONE TELL YOU WHAT THE FUCK IS IN IT..GO READ THE THING YOURSELF. THAT is what the Founders, FLAWED AS THEY WERE, created for US. We're getting it WRONG. Somewhere we went WAY too far Right then went EQUALLY as far Left and as we all know...swerving a car in such a manner at times can be QUITE fatal.

We need to seriously put the bullshit bickering over health care and taxes and entitlements aside and fix whats wrong with AMERICA.


Posted By: CM Wolf (Guest)  on March 10, 2010 at 08:19 PM

 
 
Eugene, that was the most incoherent babble I've read since the last time I read a Maureen Dowd column. I doubt you even know what eugenics is, much less that it was discredited decades ago and was a tool of the progressive movement.

Posted By: Chris Connolly (Guest)  on March 11, 2010 at 12:26 AM

 
 
This all seems to have a familiar tone to it. Ahh yes, it's the theme of several Zimmer articles throughout the summer-fall of 2009. Funny though, none of those articles seemed to mention all of the reaching across the aisle that the democrats were doing. Just because Republicans are on committees doesn't mean a whole lot in the grand scheme of things... and I too am curious as to where the CBO says that this thing will save 1 trillion +. Sounds Made Up to me.

Also, just because republicans probably will run away from repealing this bill down the road, doesn't mean the bill works. Social Security is a major problem in this country, but Republicans run away from it all the time. They do so because so many people need their entitlement. Same thing with Medicare.

But as usual, the most laughable idea in all of your articles, is that somehow the minority party is to blame that the super majority couldn't pass something that according to YOU the Americans are overwhelmingly for. The answer is very simplistic. The dirty secret is the American People DON'T want this. Hate to break that to you Mr. Zimmer. We want reform, we just don't want this. Sorry. You can go work on your next article to try and convince yourself that Obama did have a mandate to pass ANY type of change in the health care system, but anyone with a pulse knows that you're wrong.


Posted By: gwpbrian (Guest)  on March 11, 2010 at 01:36 AM

 
 
This bill is nothing more than a bloated, government-controlled, financial and medical disaster waiting to happen! Save the government money? How? "Oh, we'll save a trillion dollars!" After you spend $30 Trillion! If they really wanted TRUE health care reform, all of the politicians would get insurance companies and pharmaceutical companies out of their back pockets, enforce the laws on price gouging, and open the borders!

You do realize that insurance is meant to pay for things in times of disaster (i.e. car accident)... NOT FOR YOUR YEARLY PHYSICAL!

Price gouging is way out of control, but the pharmaceutical, insurance, and medical supply companies pretty much OWN the politicians!

Until that gets under control, no health reform bill is going to work!


Posted By: Spyke (Guest)  on March 11, 2010 at 08:13 AM

 
 
I don't even know where to begin...

"Zimmer, Freedom. Freedom, Zimmer.

You guys have a lot to talk about.

Posted By: ugh... (Guest) on March 10, 2010 at 12:49 PM"

I'd be really interested to hear how a health care bill that increases coverage to millions of Americans (by forcing them to buy private health insurance) is the anti-freedom. The whole concept of a government takeover of health care is a complete fallacy. I guess if you consider the government providing a bottom limit on what the lowest insurance coverage can be a government takeover... but then you would have to consider any regulation on any industry a "government takeover". Let's just be clear government regulation is not the same as government takeover. This bill does not create government run health care and anyone that believes that is just spewing their party line.


Posted By: so many things (Guest)  on March 11, 2010 at 09:47 AM

 
 
To answer AdmChesterMynutz, I think government subsidies are made available to anyone making less than 400% of the federal poverty limit. The closer you are to the poverty limit, the higher the subsidy (or as the bill calls them "credits". I don't know how the penalties would be imposed in the situation you described.

And on to Da Man...
"Oh, and the "death panels" are real. They're damn real. It's not called the death panel in the bill, but whetever Orwellian name they have come up with for it disguises what it's true intent is. An unelected, unaccountable bereaucracy meant to evaluate whether your treatment is cost worthy"

I can't believe that the phrase "death panels" is still being used by anyone on this planet. Although you don't cite anything specific, you seem to insinuate that this bureaucratic panel will decide what procedures get covered and which don't (although that's the way it happens right now, I guess it's just each insurance company has its own "death panel"), but that is a false premise. Yes there will be an advisory panel created to review and suggest best practices for procedures and treatment. One of the major plagues of our current system is the number of unnecessary tests and procedures. By having a best practice procedure to follow the hopes are that many unnecessary tests can be avoided. This advisory panel will have nothing to do in terms of deciding who/what gets covered. I don't know about you but I don't equate a panel that comes up with the best way to detect colon cancer equivalent to a death panel.


Posted By: so many things (Guest)  on March 11, 2010 at 10:41 AM

 
 
"See? I highly suggest all of you actually go and read those documents. DONT LET SOMEONE TELL YOU WHAT THE FUCK IS IN IT..GO READ THE THING YOURSELF. THAT is what the Founders, FLAWED AS THEY WERE, created for US. We're getting it WRONG. Somewhere we went WAY too far Right then went EQUALLY as far Left and as we all know...swerving a car in such a manner at times can be QUITE fatal.

We need to seriously put the bullshit bickering over health care and taxes and entitlements aside and fix whats wrong with AMERICA. "

Posted By: CM Wolf (Guest) on March 10, 2010 at 08:19 PM

You are correct, I can't recite the entire preamble to the constitution off the top of my head and honestly I doubt you could because the preamble to the constitution is an unimportant general opening statement (there is something about forming a more perfect union). I will talk about the premise of the preamble to the Declaration of Independence, which is to allow everyone an equal rights in "life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness"
So what does that actually mean? I think we can all agree it means the government's purpose is to ensure that all of its citizens have the ability to secure all those rights and it is the purpose of government to protect those rights. I think our current health care system violates these rights and the government needs to fix this. Currently a person who gets cancer or any other number of health problems can be denied coverage by the health insurance company (affecting their right to life) or have their costs raised so much they can no longer afford to pay for their health care (affecting their life and pursuit of happiness). In addition of that, to live in a country where not everyone has access to proper health care is a moral deficiency that we as a country should be ashamed of. (that also violates the premise that we're all created equal and all should be granted the rights). When I see something like our current health care system, I think it spits right in the face of our great nation and to fix this is precisely what the government was created for. Health care cannot be fixed without government intervention, non-government intervention has gotten us to this point. I say that government should not only fix health care but it is compelled to do so by everything our great country is about.

Oh and I looked up the preamble to the constitution...
"We the people of the United States, in order to form a more perfect union, establish justice, insure domestic tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general welfare, and secure the blessings of liberty to ourselves and our posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America."

Boy how did I not remember that whole thing?


Posted By: so many things (Guest)  on March 11, 2010 at 11:03 AM

 
 
Robert Zimmer just wrote the worst political column in the history of this country. The minority party who had only 40 senators can not block anything. Take a civics course you idiot.

Frankly, this just sounds like mr. Zimmer watched Msnbc all day and threw together a article based on what Ed Schultz and Keith Olbermann spewed that day.

Finally miss Zimmer, I will bet any amount of money you like that the republicans will destroy the democrats come November. Put your money were your daily Kos moulth is.


Posted By: Guest#4394 (Guest)  on March 11, 2010 at 05:39 PM

 
 
Hey So many Things

You wrote:

I can't believe that the phrase "death panels" is still being used by anyone on this planet. Although you don't cite anything specific, you seem to insinuate that this bureaucratic panel will decide what procedures get covered and which don't (although that's the way it happens right now, I guess it's just each insurance company has its own "death panel"), but that is a false premise. Yes there will be an advisory panel created to review and suggest best practices for procedures and treatment. One of the major plagues of our current system is the number of unnecessary tests and procedures. By having a best practice procedure to follow the hopes are that many unnecessary tests can be avoided. This advisory panel will have nothing to do in terms of deciding who/what gets covered. I don't know about you but I don't equate a panel that comes up with the best way to detect colon cancer equivalent to a death panel.

Posted By: so many things (Guest) on March 11, 2010 at 10:41 AM


You pretty much described a death panel to a tee. Here's why. It's been proven that different people respond to different treatments. If some faceless panel full of the "smartest people on the planet" determine (somehow) that there is one best proven treatment for colon cancr, then anybody who does not respond to that treatment will in essence have been sentenced to "death" because the panel will have only authorized the one "best" treatment option. While I sympathize with the notion that insurance companies "ration" care, I bring up the point I made that government has loaded up these insurance companies with so many mandates that they've essentially created this environment because only the biggest insurance companies can survivie under the weight of that type of regulation, which stifles new players from entering the market and competing. I also don't understand how you can be against alleged rationing by an insurance company but be perfectly fine with a government agency doing the exact same thing and imposing the penalty of fines and/or jail time if you go outside that system.

Thanks.


Posted By: Da Man (Guest)  on March 11, 2010 at 05:47 PM

 
 
This article is straight out of the bizaro world. If you think the republicans are going to pay for battling against this unpopuler bill in November, then you are certifibily insane.

Posted By: Guest#1078 (Guest)  on March 11, 2010 at 08:10 PM

 
 
Maybe im confused but how is spending money on health care for everyone not going to cost us anything, and in fact save us money in the long run... I just dont understand how that works.

Posted By: AG Awesome (Guest)  on March 12, 2010 at 06:25 AM

 
 
"If some faceless panel full of the "smartest people on the planet" determine (somehow) that there is one best proven treatment for colon cancr, then anybody who does not respond to that treatment will in essence have been sentenced to "death" because the panel will have only authorized the one "best" treatment option.
...
I also don't understand how you can be against alleged rationing by an insurance company but be perfectly fine with a government agency doing the exact same thing and imposing the penalty of fines and/or jail time if you go outside that system. "
Posted By: Da Man (Guest) on March 11, 2010 at 05:47 PM

I think you're misunderstanding what the purpose of the advisory panel is. Yes they are there to create and suggest best practices, that by no means is a binding law or anything of the sort. There have been many studies of our health care system that show much waste goes to unnecessary tests and incorrect patient diagnosis. The purpose of the advisory panel would be to provide doctors with guidelines to give better, more uniform care. I think it is a ridiculous conclusion to say that someone that didn't respond to the suggested best treatment would just be left to die, of course that wouldn't happen. You must have a pretty low opinion of doctors if you think they would just give up and let someone die like that. In the current health care bill there is absolutely no language about fining/jailing doctors that perform their duty and take whatever steps are necessary to save a life. And actually this bill strengthens their ability to use all the tools in their arsenal because it prevents insurance companies from denying coverage to patients. So now the doctor won't have to tell the guy that lost two fingers that he's only allowed to sew one of them back on. He will be free to provide better health care because of the proposed bill.


Posted By: so many things (Guest)  on March 12, 2010 at 10:18 AM

 
 
@so many things - Reasoning with them is pointless. Let the stupid be stupid. Health care is going to pass. And when people see that it works, the Republicans are screwed. And they know it.

The Republican Party of No - "Country first" my @$$!


Posted By: CMatt666 (Guest)  on March 13, 2010 at 01:17 AM

 
 
@so many things - Reasoning with them is pointless. Let the stupid be stupid. Health care is going to pass. And when people see that it works, the Republicans are screwed. And they know it.

The Republican Party of No - "Country first" my @$$!

Posted By: CMatt666 (Guest) on March 13, 2010 at 01:17 AM

Wanna bet? The American people want reform, but they don't what what this cunt of a president is trying to shove down their throats. The Health Care "Overhaul" will die on the Senate floor. I hate polls for the most part, but just read a few; people like some of the ideas in the plan (oddly enough, most of the ones proposed by Republicans) but hate the bill overall, because of certain things included in it. This bill will die, your messiah will be a one-term president, Republicans will retake majorities in the House and Senate (if not entirely this year, then by 2012), and we can go back to getting fucked over by Republicans instead of fucked over and ignored by Democrats. Book it.


Posted By: Guest#3034 (Guest)  on March 13, 2010 at 04:07 PM

 
 
Wanna bet? The American people want reform, but they don't what what this cunt of a president is trying to shove down their throats. The Health Care "Overhaul" will die on the Senate floor. I hate polls for the most part, but just read a few; people like some of the ideas in the plan (oddly enough, most of the ones proposed by Republicans) but hate the bill overall, because of certain things included in it. This bill will die, your messiah will be a one-term president, Republicans will retake majorities in the House and Senate (if not entirely this year, then by 2012), and we can go back to getting fucked over by Republicans instead of fucked over and ignored by Democrats. Book it.

Posted By: Guest#3034 (Guest) on March 13, 2010 at 04:07 PM

First of all, Guest#3034, Obama is not my "messiah", as you so ignorantly put it. Nor is anyone or anything my "messiah". Secondly, anyone with two brain cells can see how the Republican party has done everything to derail any kind of reform, even the good aspects in the bill. Thirdly, who exactly are the Republicans going to run in 2012 that can beat Obama? Last, but not least, what exactly are the GOP going to run on during this election cycle? "We did jack and embraced hatred and all-round stupidity while the country burned! Vote for us!!!!"

If you really think that after 8 years of one of the worst presidents of all time people are going to come out in droves to support the GOP, you're delusional.


Posted By: CMatt666 (Guest)  on March 14, 2010 at 06:02 AM

 
 
Oh, I forgot one thing: if people want reform, wouldn't it make sense to give the people what they want? One party gets that, and has been trying to get this done. The other is simply saying no to everything for political points. I think we all know which one is which.

And, Guest#3034, why would you want to screwed by the Republicans again? We're still healing form the Bush Disaster!


Posted By: CMatt666 (Guest)  on March 14, 2010 at 06:07 AM

 
 
Hey So Many Things,

While in theory what you lay out is nice, the reality is that the cost pressures this bill will place on the health care system will be so burdensome that the only place for it to go will be toward the situations I described. They are already seeing that type of cost pressure in Massachusetts, where Romneycare was sold to be a program similar to what the Congress is now pushing, and the only thing that has happened is premiums have gone sky high and Governor Patrick is now instituting a "panel" to evaluate cost measures. It's never a good thing when a "panel" needs to police costs. It doesn't happen with success anywhere else in our economy, so why should it happen in health care. Moving the health care market toward less government control than it is already under and allowing patients and doctors to agree on price via market mechanisms is a much better way of reforming the system. But I guess we will never agree on that.


Posted By: Da Man (Guest)  on March 15, 2010 at 02:00 PM

 
 
I'm from Canada and would never trade my government run health care for your only the rich can afford to get treatment system. The reason the US government will save money is because if you have universal health care people won't wait until they are deathly ill to see a doctor, because they can't afford it, they go early on and the treatment costs less. Take a look at the stats, http://www.visualeconomics.com/healthcare-costs-around-the-world_2010-
03-01/ The US pays more per person and as a % of GDP then any other developed country and yet has a lower life expectancy and higher infant mortality rate.

Open your eyes, and treat everyone as equals. How many more people have to needlessly die before something is done.


Posted By: Canada4L (Guest)  on March 19, 2010 at 12:02 AM

 
 
When your country gets anywhere close to 300 million people in it, Canada, then you let us know how universal coverage will feasibly work then, ay?

Until then, maybe you can ask yourself why your country's prime minister had to come to the United States for treatment recently.


Posted By: Da Man (Guest)  on March 19, 2010 at 11:08 AM

 
 
I'd be really interested to hear how a health care bill that increases coverage to millions of Americans (by forcing them to buy private health insurance) is the anti-freedom. The whole concept of a government takeover of health care is a complete fallacy. I guess if you consider the government providing a bottom limit on what the lowest insurance coverage can be a government takeover... but then you would have to consider any regulation on any industry a "government takeover". Let's just be clear government regulation is not the same as government takeover. This bill does not create government run health care and anyone that believes that is just spewing their party line.


Look at the first thing you said and tell me what's wrong with this whole thing. The bill itself, the process, the backroom deals, all to force a minority of americans do something. Interesting. Always forcing. Force this thing on through, despite most Americans not wanting it. Force it through using shady politics (not to mention totally unconstitutional). Very very telling.


Posted By: gwpbrianw (Guest)  on March 20, 2010 at 01:50 AM

 
 
Question to supporters. honest question. How does the plan handle those among us that currently do not pay income taxes and decide to not purchase insurance? If I qualify for the Earned Income Tax Credit and do not purchase health care, does your policy cut the EITC benefit by the amount of the mandatory healthcare payments? I don't know the answer.

How do you force the purchase of government health insurance on those who derive their income from government subsidy? Is the Federal Government going to cut AFCD subsidies to people that do not buy health care?

Reeeeportttting for Duuuuutttty!


Posted By: AdmChesterMynutz (Guest)  on March 23, 2010 at 01:17 PM

 
STAY CURRENT




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