GOP Debate Thoughts: Sparks Fly, Santorum Fizzles
Posted by Ashish on 02.23.2012
Romney runs circles around Santorum in latest debate...
The small chance Rick Santorum had to win the GOP nomination probably got squashed last night at the GOP debate as Mitt Romney and Ron Paul turned him from conviction candidate to typical Washington insider before our very eyes.
Thoughts on last night's spark-filled GOP debate:
* Rick Santorum took a beating. Mitt Romney came in with a clear strategy to make Santorum defend his past Washington votes, knowing that describing the process is always brutal. Santorum, in trying to explain the insider process of voting on bills, came off as a hypocritical insider who was every bit the typical politician Romney wants to paint him as and not the beliefs-before-politics conviction candidate that Santorum tries to present himself as. He got caught several times basically saying that he voted for things or supported people even though he didn't personally believe in the vote or person. That goes against the very core he is trying to win on -- that he has convictions and Romney doesn't. Romney did real damage to that image of Santorum tonight.
* Santorum lost his Tea Party cred. It's hard to present yourself as an anti-establishment crusader when you spent two hours explaining how you had to vote for things a certain way and support certain candidates because President Bush and your Senate colleagues made you.
* Newt Gingrich finally got back in the groove of things, mostly thanks to another loud debate crowd that ate up the red meat that he threw out there (Obama supported infanticide is another example of the over-the-top rhetoric that is going to hurt the Republican brand in the general election). I wouldn't be surprised to see him get a bit of a boost out of tonight, not enough to win Michigan or Arizona, but enough to probably cause Santorum to lose both. Any support Gingrich gains will come right out of Santorum's support and will cost him Michigan, which is virtually tied right now.
* Ron Paul was also very effective in denting up Santorum's "conviction candidate" image, getting him to constantly make excuses for past votes that he no longer agreed with. Again, Santorum spent almost the entire night defending past votes that he no longer agrees with and using twisted logic and explaining Washington process that made him come off as no different than every other Washington insider.
* We are once again witnessing why it is so difficult for a Senator to become elected President. Obama benefited from running against Hilary Clinton and John McCain, both Senators. But otherwise, Governors have huge advantages because they don't have the mile long list of votes that can be used against you later. Senators, by the time they run for President, usually have voted on thousands of things, many of which they probably didn't agree with but had to vote for due to pressure from their party. Romney did to Santorum tonight what Bush did to Kerry in 2004 -- make him explain his votes. There is no way to explain certain votes and not come off like a hypocrite, because every single Senator in history has voted for things they don't agree with due to party politics. It's a weapon Governors can always use against Senators in a debate and it almost always works. Sadly for Romney, he won't have that advantage against Obama now since his Senate record no longer matters.
* The GOP candidates protected Santorum on social issues tonight, but every second these candidates spend talking about birth control as if it's an immoral thing, reduced roles for women in the military, etc. is going to hurt them badly in the general election where women vote more than men. These are views out of the 50s and 60s. It's pretty stunning that at this stage in the GOP primary, where the fringe candidates are supposed to be gone, that these are the topics they continue to discuss, and in a way where they seem to not think that it'll kill them in a general election. Santorum's constant desire to bring up these social issues is forcing Romney to also discuss them and go further right on them, and that is music to Obama's ears.
* Romney gave a completely hypocritical answer on the auto-bailouts, basically being for and against it at the same time. It would really hurt him in Michigan had Santorum not had such a bad night, but seeing as he did, Romney should win Michigan anyway now.
* Pretty shocked Romney even knows who George Costanza is. Gotta figure somebody slipped him that line prior to the debate.
* Romney really did a great job coming in prepared with the Arlen Spector bit which I think hurt Santorum more than anything else. He came off extremely hypocritical in that exchange.
Overall, Romney just smoked Santorum tonight to the point where Santorum will likely lose Michigan and fizzle off completely. That being said, Santorum has already done major damage to the party. His extreme social rhetoric has gotten played on mainstream TV constantly for two weeks now, branding the entire Republican party and its eventual nominee as anti-birth control, anti-women in the military extremists.
Long primary battles often benefit the party. A perfect example was Obama and Clinton in 2008. But many don't. A perfect example is this year's GOP primary. Obama and Clinton did not push each other so far left that they couldn't get out. They didn't brand the party with extreme rhetoric. That is what is happening to the GOP right now. Gingrich and Santorum have spent weeks upon weeks flat-out questioning Romney's principles and honesty and have gone public with so many out-there statements that it will all get hung around Romney's neck whenever he does eventually win the nomination.
At no point did Romney make any anti-birth control or anti-women in the military statements. Santorum did, but Romney didn't. The closest he came was defending the right of Catholic churches not to pay for birth control. Which debate were you watching?
Posted By: Guest#0929 (Guest) on February 23, 2012 at 01:09 AM
Right. The republican party would have been better to be quiet. Stop critcizing Romney-he is what you have. When I looked back at the candidates months ago-I had hoped it would come to this-but a lot more gracefully. It looks like I will be voting for Obama though-but you want the best candidates possible.
Posted By: Guest#8224 (Guest) on February 23, 2012 at 01:15 AM
Santorum got SCHOOLED. It seems like the other candidates are finally smartening up and reading his insane voting record.
Good recap. I disagree with you at the end - I'm not sure the primary will really hurt Romney in the end. There have been few surprises with the Romney campaign - I can't imagine that the attack ads against Romney told the Democrats anything they don't already know. Most of the exchanges in the primary debates will be forgotten by the time the Presidential debates begin. But Romney showed improvement tonight, I thought. He seems more comfortable in debate now, and while he's not in Obama's league in debates, the GOP will be very happy if they just get him to appear competent in debates - because the rest of the campaign will be exchanging attacks in the media.
Posted By: ICTimer (Guest) on February 23, 2012 at 01:15 AM
This is the problem with the "win at all costs" mentality. By the time there is a clear winner, all of the losers are going to have to turn around and ask their supporters to get behind the nominee they just spent months demonizing....
All of this stuff, from the very basic liberal vs. conservative rants to the more outrageous extreme right accusations are very damaging to the political system in general. The current model of political debate seems to get further and further away from actual issues or ideas, focusing instead on negativity and twisting people's words to suit an attack.
Make all the excuses you want, wrong is wrong. And everything has gotten so wrong in D.C. that it may be too broken to fix.
Posted By: MDG Lite (Guest) on February 23, 2012 at 02:30 AM
The Ron Paul Rub:
He's building delegates for clout at the GOP national convention. Why? Not to go with any of the great libertarian ideals out there (prohibition is bad... mmmkay?), but to push for an audit of the fed.
I wonder if he realizes how many of his supporters are actually drug reformers who have flocked to him because Obama has been the WORST president (regarding the war on drugs at least) since Nixon.
If anybody can point to something GOOD Obama has done in the war on drugs.... reformers would love to hear it.
Posted By: Guest#1396 (Guest) on February 23, 2012 at 01:55 PM
Ron Paul was good on the debate. He controlled the foreign policy and economics discussions, as well as voicing a strong civil liberties message. I see his base surging over this week and him establishing himself as 2nd place nationally and 1st place in the delegate counts. One way or another, VP or P, Paul is getting into the whitehouse. The people want it.
Posted By: Guest#8516 (Guest) on February 23, 2012 at 03:29 PM
"Ron Paul was good on the debate. He controlled the foreign policy and economics discussions, as well as voicing a strong civil liberties message. I see his base surging over this week and him establishing himself as 2nd place nationally and 1st place in the delegate counts. One way or another, VP or P, Paul is getting into the whitehouse. The people want it."
No way the Republicans let Paul anywhere near the White House. He's been running as an outsider for so long that I don;t think he would even know what to do if he found himself as President. Same goes for VP. In both of these positions he would have to publicly come out against his own party time and time again, and you have to believe that the Democrats would take advantage of it.
Posted By: Jlevysan (Guest) on February 23, 2012 at 06:58 PM
Ron Paul was good on the debate. He controlled the foreign policy and economics discussions, as well as voicing a strong civil liberties message. I see his base surging over this week and him establishing himself as 2nd place nationally and 1st place in the delegate counts. One way or another, VP or P, Paul is getting into the whitehouse. The people want it.
Posted By: Guest#8516 (Guest) on February 23, 2012 at 03:29 PM
Heh... funny.
Wait, that wasn't supposed to be satire?
No, seriously... you think he has a chance in hell of winning or being VP?
I've said it before, I'll say it again - the moment Paul looks like he's anywhere near a credible threat, the American people will get a crash course on the ugly side of Libertarians. Imagine how many of Paul's supporters are also supporters of the Occupy movement. Now imagine the mass exodus from Paul's camp when those supporters find out that his view of big business is to remove regulations and allow them to rape our nation even more than they are doing now.
Posted By: Scott B (Guest) on February 23, 2012 at 10:17 PM
Santorum had 0 chance of winning the nomination to begin with. He may have won a bunch of straw polls, but Ron Paul won the actual delegates. It is a 2-man race between Ron Paul and Mitt Romney and it has been since the Gingrich implosion in December. Everything else is just a smoke screen.
It isn't difficult for Senators to become President. Rick Santorum would not have any difficulty if he had actually been a real conservative during his time in the Senate instead of a counterfeit conservative. Ron Paul's past votes don't hurt him at all (what hurts him is his factually correct stance on Iran, because most Republicans are misinformed by Fox News about the Iranian power plant program).
I think Republican voters will eventually have to choose Ron Paul. It is evident that they are determined not to nominate Mitt Romney and Ron Paul is the only viable candidate who can stop Romney from winning the nomination (because he is the only candidate who is well organized enough to win actual caucus delegates and get on the ballot in every state). I predict Ron Paul will win the majority of Pennsylvania's delegates because he got around 20% here in 2008 and because Pennsylvania's presidential primary is a straw poll (there is a separate vote for delegates). I guarantee you that Ron Paul supporters will be outside of every polling place giving out lists of delegates (I would hope that they don't waste time encouraging people to vote for Paul, as they should try to keep supporters of the other candidates in the dark as to which candidate they support).
I still think the most likely outcome is brokered convention ending in a Mitt Romney-Rand Paul ticket. However, both Romney and Paul could win an outright majority of delegates. If Paul doesn't get a majority of delegates, he isn't coming out of the convention as the presidential nominee.
Actually, the more the media remains unaware that Santorum and Gingrich are fringe candidates that can't win and that Ron Paul and Mitt Romney are in a neck-and-neck race to the finish, the better for Ron Paul. That's less time for the media to attack Ron Paul or expose his delegate-gathering methods to the supporters of other candidates. Paul supporters need to realize that he isn't going to get fair coverage from the media, so a media blackout can actually be a good thing that allows him to secretly secure the nomination (just like Eisenhower secretly stole the nomination from Taft in 1952, so the GOP establishment is actually getting a taste of their own medicine if Paul succeeds in "stealing" the nomination).
Posted By: Guest#7567 (Guest) on February 24, 2012 at 01:37 AM
I wonder if he realizes how many of his supporters are actually drug reformers who have flocked to him because Obama has been the WORST president (regarding the war on drugs at least) since Nixon.
Posted By: Guest#1396 (Guest) on February 23, 2012 at 01:55 PM
That great news. Great to hear that you woke up from the coma you were in for the last decade...
Now, let me just fill you in on what you missed from the first decade of the 21st century. You might want to know a couple of things about the president...
Posted By: Guest#5140 (Guest) on February 24, 2012 at 03:53 AM
"Sparks Fly, Santorum Fizzles "
well, guess it's better than sparks fizzle and Santorum flies!
Posted By: Guest#5561 (Guest) on February 24, 2012 at 05:38 AM
Paul being on the ballot in every state just means that his supporters will get 50 chances to make excuses about why he didn't win and how the delegates don't actually matter, etc, etc...
Posted By: Parker (Guest) on February 24, 2012 at 08:26 AM
Paul being on the ballot in every state just means that his supporters will get 50 chances to make excuses about why he didn't win and how the delegates don't actually matter, etc, etc...
Posted By: Parker (Guest) on February 24, 2012 at 08:26 AM
No, right now the delegates do matter. We're currently at stage 4 (I think) of the "why Paul is doing bad" excuse card, where his apologists say it doesn't matter that he's losing in the primaries because those are all non-binding. They say that when the time comes, the delegates will all be part of the super-secret Ron Paul stealth brigade, and they'll go in and nominate Paul despite the will of the people.
I want to see it happen, if for nothing else than to see the shitstorm of outrage and then the absolute destruction of Ron Paul in an election.
Posted By: Scott B (Guest) on February 24, 2012 at 11:49 AM
It isn't difficult for Senators to become President. Rick Santorum would not have any difficulty if he had actually been a real conservative during his time in the Senate instead of a counterfeit conservative.
Posted By: Guest#7567 (Guest) on
February 24, 2012 at 01:37 AM
No. No difficulty at all. Aside from his 17th century views on morality.
Posted By: Guest#3401 (Guest) on February 24, 2012 at 06:48 PM