The Heineken Dialogues 02.09.07

Posted by Brandon Crow on 02.09.2007

Yes, politics wonks...the dialogue is BACK with a makeover!

Good Friday morning to all of the dedicated readers of the politics zone. This is Crow, back with a new edition of "The Heineken Dialogues." Yes, it's returning and it's been revamped. The dialogues will run on Fridays from now on, in the hopes of appeasing your Friday politics "shakes" now that the "Weekly Monitor" has moved to Mondays.

My partner in crime for the dialogue, Josh White and I apologize for the unintended "hiatus" that the dialogues took these past two months. Christmas was a busy season for me personally and Josh and I just ended up having off schedules.

But it's back! And it's back with a different look. This week, my dialogue partner is "Mr. Conservative" Mark Radulich. Josh will be back next week, with a dialogue partner of his choice.

We've decided that "The Heineken Dialogues" should not just be Josh and I lobbying warning shots at each other week after week. I mean, come on, Josh can only call me a "bleeding heart, crybaby liberal" for so long before it loses its edge and humor. Likewise, I can only continue to be right about everything week after week for so long before it just got too boring, repetitive and unchallenging!

From now on, the dialogue will appear on Fridays and will be circulated among the different writers of the politics zone.

Ok, enough set up. Here's the dialogue, which Mark and I held last Thursday:


MR:: interesting column today
BC:: thanks. i felt like i didn't quite get to the exact point i wanted to
MR:: well I liked the idea that Bush would gain popularity and integrity from his base by pardoning the two BP's though I heartily disagree that he should
the cover up bothers me a lot
BC:: yes. it did get my goat too. I mean, come on, 14 or 15 rounds and no shells?
plus, what tony snow said really damaged them more-- they just had training a day or two earlier about reporting incidents...
MR:: I'd have been fine with it if they had shot the guy and said, oops we screwed up and taken the fall
then a pardon is excusable, but to cover it up only compounds the guilt
BC:: i agree. it does not look good for them, from a legal standpoint
but, this is also one of those cases whch could easily be seen from a human, a national patriotism standpoint
i'm the last person to buy into "bandwagon patriotism" but these dudes really were doing their jobs.
MR:: you can make that case for them shooting the guy and to be honest I'm with the conservatives to that point, but when they get to covering it up and all of that, that's where I turn away.
being overzealous in your job is one thing--we're only human--lying about it and throwing out evidence is something else
_____<----insert WMD jokes here
BC:: LOL!
let me ask you something unrelated to the border agents.
what are your thoughts on the latest libby trial testimony?
MR:: I haven't been following the libby trial, last i heard Novak was telling people it wasn't the GOP's fault Plame's name was leaked
BC:: oh, you haven't heard the latest testimony...
let me quickly sum it up for you
apparently, libby's lawyer has pointed the finger at karl rove. libby is being portrayed as a scapegoat.
only thing is, they have evidence and witnesses (even on prosecution's side) that seem to point to rove.
MR:: how''d he get exonerated in the first round of subpeonas?
BC:: I don't know. BUT, a sheet of paper with cheney's handwriting on it was produced. in the margin, a note: won't protect a staffer by sacrificing the man "that was" asked to stick his head into the meat grinder.
MR:: hmmm
BC:: meat grinder = washington press corp
MR:: well I've said before that if Rove purposely leaked an active CIA members name to the press he shoudl be brought up on treason charges
BC:: it's not just rove...there's more.
the cheney note-- "that was" is actually an edit.
the original words were crossed out, but remain on the note and is still legible.
"that was" used to read "this pres"
MR:: WOW!
BC:: yeah. that's what i said when i heard about it
the buzz now (in the media) is that as the trial goes on, we will see more and more of the rift between cheney and bush that went on behind the scenes
also, there will be more investigations into what bush knew and when he knew it
MR:: as much as Bush is an oil guy, a christian and all of that, the truth is he's more liberal than his handlers like Cheney and Rumsfeld
BC:: i agree.
MR:: left to his own devices he'd probably be a democrat
BC:: he puts up a totally crazy right wing front b/c he knows he needs that fringe vote to stay in office
MR:: and I think a lot of what we've seen of Bush is Cheney and Rumsfeld trying to bury old demons
BC:: he's too pro-business to be a democrat
too tax-loathing too
but the man has done a whole lot of things in his past that would make him a democrat!
MR:: again, how much of that is him and how much of that is his handlers
BC:: with bush, it's hard to tell
MR:: his handling of Afghanistan and frankly Iraq (see Woodwards books) make me think he's very liberal behind closed doors
He wanted to fight wars without killing people, dropping aid packages and bombs at the same time.
I can picture eyes rolling around the table
BC:: i don't think that thought makes him a liberal. i find it hard to believe anyone would want to fight a war for the expressed purpose of killing people.
MR:: that's not what I meant
without going off into a tangent about war and it's ethical issues, Bush states a few times with regards to both invasions that he wants as little collateral damage as possible and though people try to explain to him that that's nearly impossible, he still insists on it and everyone just gives up and tries to accomodate him
heart in the right place, but it's not a well thought out tactic
BC:: again, i don't think that makes him a liberal. i truly believe every one put into that position would have those thoughts.
MR:: thoughts, sure. I guess my point is that I don't think Bush really understood the gravity of invading those two countries
BC:: or are you saying you can't show compasssion and still be a true conservative?
MR: nah, we're all vampires : )
BC:: we have an absolute concensus!
on both points!
MR:: lol
BC:: more and more, that's what I'm hearing as the general sentiment-- bush is in way over his head now.
now personally, i've been saying this since day 1. but i really don't think that bush knows he's in over his head
MR:: honestly, if the dems had picked Lieberman for 04, I would not have voted for Bush
BC:: i've heard that a lot. And not just with Lieberman.
MR:: but I wasn't voting for "NOT BUSH" when given that choice
BC:: one of my most right leaning, conservative Republican friends soured on Bush around 04 also. But he didn't want kerry. he said had the dems nominated edwards, he would have voted for him over bush
MR:: and as much as I liked Howard Dean, I wasn't voting for some one whom I think didn't understand the War on Terror
BC:: in a way, it's funny-- on one side, you had anyone but bush. on the other, anyone but kerry... stupid ass Americans!
MR:: yeah, it'll be the same thing this time if we're not careful
"Anyone but Hillary"
I'm praying Newt runs at this point
BC:: you know, i actually don't think hillary will get the nomination
MR:: it'll be tough with Obama out there and god help her if Gore runs
BC:: and i know newt's your guy, but dude, he's got no shot.
MR:: ::::sheds a single tear::::
BC:: i'm on the fence with gore. i don't know if he'll run or not
i thought he wouldn't.
but shit, he just got nominated for a nobel prize.
and if the buzz gets out that he might just win the peace prize, I think he'll definitely jump in the race
have we ever had a pres candidate who's won a nobel peace prize?
MR:: Carter I think but not in that order
And depending on who the GOP nominates, I'd vote Gore
BC:: i have a feeling that mccain ain't gonna win nomination either
MR:: at this point for the GOP i'm for anyone but McCain and Giuliani
No strong governors right now on the GOP side
BC:: believe it or not, i'm actually pretty high on huckabee of arkansas...all save his name…poor bastard.
MR:: me too
We're going to play up Huckabee on the show this weekend
I think if he gets some good press and A LOT of money he's got a shot of making a go against the big names
BC:: he's more socially conservative than i'd like, but at the same time, i don't think he'll blindly push legislation based on his own religious beliefs either. Terry Schiavo, anyone?
constitutional ban on gay marriage?
MR:: Shciavo is what killed Frist, I think the GOP has learned from that debacle
Hey, this is starting to sound like a Heineken Dialogue
BC:: yeah. maybe we can use this.
josh and i have been thinking about bringing it back
we just got busy and off schedule around December
MR: what's on tap for you next week?
BC:: for next week, i'm thinking of doing my column on 'RACE and 2007"
racism is definitely still around even though no one wants to admit it
MR:: Race & 2007: So Fresh and So Clean
BC:: Your forgot "so articulate."
Man, look at the big hoopla being made about biden's comments yesterday
MR:: Biden misspoke I agree, but I am getting sick and tired of anyone talking about black people and using well spoken or articulate in their description
Chris Rock said it best about Colin Powell, nobody said that about Dole but a prominent black figure gets out there and people are surprised he isn't rapping.
BC:: WHAT? You mean not all black people talk via rapping?
dude, where have you been?
50 cent
ludacris
eminem...
MR:: lol
Jesse Jackson
Al "I take a shower everyday" Sharpton
Mosely Braun didn't rap did she?
BC:: of course she did. she's black, ain't she?
MR:: All I remember about her is her saying 2004 was the year of the woman before she dropped out of the race
BC:: now that's irony
MR:: yes it was
Biden wasn't a serious candidate anyway
BC:: really?
MR:: he at best was Kerry
BC:: actually, I think he has a good shot
MR:: nah
BC:: i was very excited that he got in the race
MR:: he's VP material at best
BC:: i was hoping he had run in 04
MR:: Senators with long terms have a difficult time getting out of the safe place the senate provides and making relevant changes
BC:: true, but i think he may be the most qualified guy for the job right now
MR:: yeah like qualifications matter
have you met President Bush
BC:: LOL! Wow, I'm stunned to hear a conservative, ANY conservative say that.
MR:: well my point was that until most Americans start reading and paying attention to politics at times other than big elections then flash will always win over substance
and money
I think the most interesting wrinkle right now is that Obama is making off with all of HIllary's donors
if the media leaves her and the DNC leaves her then she's done
BC:: yeah, but she's got tons of money socked away already
i think she'll go far in the process, but i don't believe she'll win nomination
MR:: true
cult of personality goes a long way
people tend to make the safe bet
BC:: obama may be fresh and "viable," but i don't think he'll win nomination either
MR:: a la Kerry circa Iowa 2004
BC:: man, it should have been dean. i heard that man speak, met him at a UCLA event
MR:: it really should have been but people got scared and voted safe
BC:: that dude would have been a good president
MR:: he would have made it closer, that's for sure
once Kerry got the nod I knew the dems were done
BC:: kerry still came DAMN close. he should have taken Ohio
...if it weren't for those cheatin' votin' machines! :)
well my friend, i got to go to class. but i'd like to catch you on line again soon
MR:: have fun
BC:: lates