411 Politics Fact or Fiction: Week 109

Posted by Brandon Crow on 11.11.2008

The big "Post Election Extravaganza!" features questions speculating on "President Obama," as well as FOUR participants! Come see what the two liberals and two conservatives on the panel have to say!

Welcome to another week of Politics Fact or Fiction. This week, Week 109, is a very special week indeed. It is our "Post Election Extravaganza!" This week, we have four participants, two liberals (elite, socialist-communists who pal around with terrorists) and two conservatives (crazy, war-mongering, rapture-seeking religiosos)… MAN, CAN'T WE ALL JUST GET ALONG?

On the left, we have two of F or F's favorite participants, Ray Church (who use to write for the zone), and Brett Leggette. On the right, we have the zone's favorite conservative son, Chris Connolly and reader Ace Jung.

This week, we feel out the political landscape of the nation (and world) after the election of Barack Obama as the 44th president of the United States.

Let's get to it.

Ding! Ding

1. The election of Barack Obama is good for the country and good for the world.

Ray Church: FACT. Can Obama solve all the problems the US faces? Not a chance. Between the economy, the military and the legal system, eight years of Bush has wiped out US from the inside. But will Obama make it better for the US? I think even moderate social changes, like business regulation and healthcare, will dramatically improve life for the US.

As for the world, let me say we were dancing in the streets with you. My workplace was smiling and the moment they called Ohio, my best mate called to give me the news. Making the world better won't be that hard, and something Obama seems willing to do. There's one little secret to this: speak to us as equals. The simple fact you voted to not continue the Bush legacy has reinstalled our faith in the wisdom of the US, and gives us a chance to reestablish international goodwill.

Brett Leggett: FACT. By electing Barack Obama, Americans have brought an end to the incompetence, arrogance, and unilateralism of the Bush years, a set of policies and principles which likely would have continued in a McCain administration. Even moderate Republicans who felt obligated to vote for McCain have acknowledged that Obama brings with him a much needed "breath of fresh air."

Obama obviously has some difficult domestic and foreign policy decisions to make, but he must also repair old alliances and restore humility to the oval office. The fate of our country and the world are inextricably tied together and many of the solutions to our problems will have to be found together (a relatively simple concept foreign to Bush). For example, when our economy started tanking, world financial markets began to suffer. When terrorists struck in New York, our enemies targeted London and Madrid as well. When China spews greenhouse gases into the atmosphere, our west coast experiences the brunt of its impact.

When our allies began to dissent against American unilateralism, the neo-con response was at best juvenile (hey Bush, is it O.K. to call "freedom" fries french fries again?). And like adults, our allies did not buy into the simplistic notion that countries are either good or evil, or "with us or against us."

Mr. Bush, the world does not hate freedom or the other ideals we represent. The world is disappointed because we haven't been living up to everything we should represent. We take for granted so many things that are uniquely American. When monarchs and the divine right of kings was the norm, we demonstrated that opposing factions could hold free elections and cooperate in the peaceful transfer of power--no family intrigue over which sibling rises to power, no storming of the White House by angry mobs, no tanks in the streets to challenge the government's authority. The world has been rooting for the United States to once again serve as a source of hope by practicing our own "American" ideals.

Obama's election as the first African-American president goes a long way toward restoring the faith of our allies and finally exemplifying the diversity we have long claimed to value. So, if and when the next national tragedy or international crisis tests our new president as Joe Biden has suggested, perhaps this time we can rally the good will of the world in a way we should have after 9/11.

Chris Connolly: FICTION. Judging from the priorities and policies Obama has laid out, I just don't see it. What I do see is a government becoming even more bloated than it already is, spending Lord knows how much money. We are just in for the same crap FDR, Johnson and Carter did: tax, spend and attempt to make people more dependent on the government instead of themselves. His economic policy has been tried before, it's failed before, and it will fail again.

As for the rest of the world, I don't see him as being a defender of free nations like Reagan, both Bushes, Truman, FDR, etc. Is he going to tell NATO that the troops from other countries need to do some fighting every now and again in Afghanistan, or that there needs to be a clearer chain of command? I doubt it and I also don't think he scares Chavez, Putin, the crazies in Iran or anyone else for that matter. They are going to walk all over him like the Russians did JFK, and it's going to make the world a dangerous place.

Ace Jung: FICTION. With all due respect, I'd like my two esteemed, liberal, co- contributors, to take the black-colored glasses off, and see what Americans have done to de-legitimize itself. I don't think moderate Republicans who voted for McCain felt any obligation at all to vote the way we did, nor do I think Obama brings any air with him except one of arrogance and self-indulgence.

I'm so sick of hearing how America has somehow shown the world something new and unique with his election. It is no less racist to vote for a black man FOR his color, than it is to vote AGAINST him because he's black. Martin Luther King Jr. said (paraphrasing), "I have a dream that one day the world shall judge my children, not for the color of their skin, but the content of their character". So if you people think Obama is so great, concentrate on how much greater his character is, than any other candidate, not on the fact that he's the first black President (color of his skin, for those who didn't catch it).

And do you know why we don't talk about his character? Because if you want someone with PROVEN character, PROVEN self sacrifice, PROVEN love for country over self, PROVEN ability to reach across the aisle, you wouldn't have voted Obama in!

While I'll admit, I was fearful of a President Palin, I laughed when I saw how fast the claims of her inexperience went quiet in the liberal media, when people figured out she had more experience than Obama. This guy is touted as the MOST liberal senator of all, so how do you, my esteemed co contributors, expect him to all of a sudden change enough to reach across the aisle and solve problems in the agreed necessary bipartisan matter? We de-legitimized ourselves in front of the truly educated rest of the world, by after having screwed up with Bush, we have decided to rectify things by bringing in someone who will have on the job training....bravo!

I'm glad I have a stable job, because I pity the average person who's about to lose their job because the freshmen president taxes the hell our of their employers, so that greater subsidies can go to the people who don't pay taxes at all.

2 Facts, 2 Fictions. Gee, I didn't see that schism coming…[end sarcasm]

2. Obama's overwhelming election is both a mandate for change as well as a referendum on Bush's presidency.

Ray Church: FACT. OK, so Obama didn't win a majority of white men and women, and 52% is hardly overwhelming in most statistics, so let's make a deal. Maybe he has a mandate for those who voted for him, so universal healthcare for everyone except Utah and Texas, or tax cuts for everyone under $250,000 except in Alaska?

The reason you have elections is to allow for change, and the mandate comes not from the margin of victory, which will always look small just because of the nature of two-party politics, but the swing, which was huge, and definitely a repudiation of Bush. When North Carolina, Virginia and Colorado all swing Democrat, there is a repudiation of Republican policy.

Brett Leggett: FACT. While Obama's win was both a mandate for change and a referendum on the Bush administration, that's not the whole story. As the Clinton campaign was famous for saying in 1992, "it's the economy, stupid." My last time at bat for F or F, I made the all-too-easy case for Bush as the worst U.S. president ever. No one even comes close. So certainly the worst president ever driving the country on a one-way express to hell would certainly be enough to give Obama his decisive win, right? Because of Bush's unpopularity, I do believe that Obama would have won regardless of the recent economic meltdown, but it would have been a lot closer.

Without the worst economic downturn since the Great Depression, Ohio and Florida might have remained red. Because of the economy and a strong African-American turnout, North Carolina and Indiana turned blue, but just barely. Future Dems will probably have a tough time keeping those states in the Democratic column. The reddest of red states in the plains and deep south remain elusive because of what I will charitably call their various "cultural differences." So while Obama's election can be called a mandate for change and referendum on Bush, he probably needed the economic meltdown to obtain his decisive win (and by "decisive," we're not talking about a Reaganesque 49-state landslide here). And yet, that still wasn't enough for the over 57 million who voted for John McCain.

Chris Connolly: FICTION. for the first part, fact for the second. 53% of the popular vote in the most toxic election year for Republicans since 1974 does not a mandate make, especially when you consider that turnout didn't really increase from 2004. Plus, "change" was never really defined, so how can there be a mandate when we don't know what the hell it is? (BTW, perhaps Obama's greatest strength was being able to present himself as a blank slate for people, allowing the Kossacks to think he was one of them, while at the same time allowing normal people to think he was a centrist.)

More than anything, this election was about Bush. While I think he will be like Truman and history will judge him less harshly than we do now, it's clear this election was about the voters breaking away from the party of an unpopular president. As for the whole worst president thing, that's laughable. Harding's administration was nothing but a series of ethical scandals, Hoover's overregulation of the economy caused the Great Depression and Jimmy Carter destroyed an already tanking economy and allowed the rise of Islamic fundamentalism. Those three will be judged to be much worse than Bush as time goes by.

Ace Jung: FACT. This I cannot deny. Speaking as a right leaning moderate Republican, Bush Jr. was an embarrassment. This administration and the congressmen and senators who lost their seats, probably needed to be replaced. Those heads of Oil companies that reaped extreme benefits at the cost of the county's economy, and all those CEOs who took bonuses despite the companies under their watch now getting help from the government, should have their pay stripped, and put back into the government to reduce the deficit. These people were not acting as Republicans, these people were acting as monopolists, and criminals. And while I don't believe in income redistribution, I do believe in hauling these idiots into jail because profiteering at the expense of the national good, and intentional deceit toward shareholders have no place in this country's politics or fiduciary duty. So I believe this election was necessary to weed the bad Republicans out.

But I still hold Carter as worse, and worse yet he continues to do stupid things while on the Middle East's payroll. So you Dems who think you got ammo with Bush, be careful...

But I think the hardest part about writing this response is the admission that Republicans blew it. I know you liberals don't like Republican controls on your freedom of anything, but I'm sorry, during Good Republican administrations, I believe the moral fabric of the country fairs better.

I just realized recently, why it is so much easier to criticize a conservative, than it is to criticize a liberal. Conservatives have a code of conduct we're supposed to follow. And when we deviate from that path, all of you ultra left-wing rule-less, amoral, purveyors of anarchy jump all over us and claim GOD is dead. And by the way, if you're truly a liberal, and believe that GOD is dead, and that Christianity is a mindless crutch, make sure you get back to work seven days a week, don't be eating turkey at Thanksgiving, turn down the CHRISTmas presents and be at work on December 24 and 25 and EASTER....but I digress.

Bottom line, Bush screwed up more than any Republican in history. But to me, that weighed into this vote way more than Obama's potential as a candidate. This vote was an emotional reaction, that's all. He was certainly not more qualified than McCain, and while you may not like McCain's voting record, at least he didn't vote "present". Even Juan Williams, a liberal contributor on many news shows, said that Obama is likely to swing more towards the right when he gets into office, first noting that Obama would do whatever it takes to get the popular vote. My claim right here, right now, is that his flip-flopping is going to make Kerry look like a 5 carat diamond of consistency.

For people who have stable employment, think...gas has fallen, the market has tanked and so have real estate prices. What you silly people who have stable employment don't understand, is that this is the best time for you to make investments and for your quality of life. But as a true patriot, I'd rather have more people employed, than to have my cheap gas.

Do I want Obama to fail? No, I love this country more than I want a conservative President. So for the good of the country, I want him to succeed. But if he fails, much like Carter, he's going to guarantee a Republican President, for the next three terms following him...look at Carter.

3 Facts, 1 Fiction.

Switch!

3. Joe Biden, knowing he's too old to run for president in 2016, will step aside in 2012 to make way for Hillary Clinton (or another likely Democrat) to be on the ticket with Obama as a way to ensure transition to a new, possible, Democratic nominee.

Chris Connolly: FICTION. First of all, if Hillary is going to run again, because of her age it's going to have to be in 2012 (and don't put it past her if Obama struggles). Second of all, with all the former Clintonites Obama is surrounding himself with, it would be a long four years behind the scenes if he allowed her to become part of the executive branch. Perhaps the biggest factor though is the fact that they don't like each other. I know 2012, is a long way away, but who else is high profile enough to possibly take the spot?
Obama is going to keep Biden around as long as he doesn't say or do anything too idiotic in the next four years. Although, judging from his public statements during the campaign, that bar is set real high.

Ace Jung: FACT. (Fiction for Hillary) Admit it or not, there was more hostility between Biden and Obama, and between the Clintons and Obama, than McCain and Obama. In fact even now, I have not seen a real genuine endorsement by Bill Clinton of Obama to date. I think the Clintons have already seen that their political machine is no longer unstoppable. And remember, before Hillary can get on the ticket WITH Obama, she must campaign with him, or against him as another presidential nominee. While Hillary's best chance to make it to the Oval office is through Obama, she must acknowledge that any Democratic campaign money is going to go to Obama and she'll probably bankrupt herself in the first six months of campaigning against him.
As for Biden, heck he's too old now....he's so old he either didn't hear right, or forgot, that Obama committed to wealth distribution, and then contradicted Obama on camera...

Ray Church: FICTION. I can't believe I'm agreeing with Chris here, although 2016 would put her at 69 years of age, a full 3 years younger than McCain when he made a play for the White House. Not to mention Reagan, who was 69 when he came to office. Personally, the pick of Joe Biden seemed to be a deliberate effort to placate Hillary Clinton with the knowledge that there would be no heir apparent to the Obama Whitehouse. That doesn't mean putting Clinton on the ticket, as she could just as easily make the play for the White House from outside. not to mention that it allows her some distance from any decisions she doesn't agree with.

Brett Leggett: FICTION. What incentive does Joe Biden have to step aside in 2012? Biden's resources and luck have never matched his ambition. Until Obama came calling, his failed presidential bids in 1988 and 2008 meant that he had to be satisfied with a respectable career in the senate as the pinnacle of his career. In fact, Joe Biden is more relevant now than he ever was as a presidential candidate.

Biden will be 74 in 2016, making a presidential run unlikely. Still, the vice presidency has more value than a mere presidential stepping stone (just ask Cheney). For Joe, it's clearly a promotion and an opportunity to have influence within the adminisration. After all, what better act to follow than "Darth Vader" himself to show the country how it's supposed to be done. For Hillary or her supporters to expect him to just step aside for her in 2012 is at best presumptuous. And as far as setting up other young democrats, the right candidate will make it to the national stage regardless (Obama didn't need the vice presidency). No one is going to force Obama to trade in Joe for anyone if he doesn't want to, and unless there's a major Biden snafu, he won't want to.

1 Fact, 3 Fictions.

4. Obama's history-making win as the first Black president signals the end of the racial divide in America.

Chris Connolly: FICTION. In my almost 30 years of living, I've figured out that there are three kinds of people: those that don't give a damn about race, those that do care about race only to the extent that they want to end the racial divide and those who see everything as another part of an "us vs. them" scenario. The first two groups obviously don't cause the racial problems we have in this country. Unfortunately, the members of that third group (on all sides) are never going away, no matter who is elected to what office.

Ace Jung: FICTION. While north west of Georgia and Alabama I think the country has made a concerted effort to rid the perception of racial discrimination, the dividing lines run deep. The problem here, is that blacks in general, are still struggling to find the difference between a healthy preservation of black culture, and reverse discrimination. I heard that 80 percent of blacks in California voted for Proposition 8. Yet 91% of blacks voted for Obama. So either those blacks who voted for both are severely politically ignorant, or they were simply practicing what I call reverse voting discrimination. It is no worse to vote against Obama because he's part black, than to vote for him because he's part black.

I think this country was in such a hurry to bring in a man of color, they didn't bother to make sure he was the right man of color. I would easily have voted Colin Powell into the Presidency, but he didn't want to run. Talk about a man of respect, who could cross the aisle, and was separated from Bush politics, this guy left the administration and recently endorsed Obama! You don't get any more bipartisan than that.

This country is making progress, and some critics say not enough, towards ending the racial divide. I just think sometimes we go too far, and don't hold blacks accountable for their part too. It's been shown that blacks account for the highest level of children without fathers. But the children don't see the need to grow up and be different. Blacks who grow up in projects, are less likely to get out than any other racial group, in fact generations stay there. And at the same time, I know no better group of individuals who would fight for their family members and worship more soulfully than blacks. DUMP THE BAD...PROMOTE THE GOOD!

If you think the police profile, don't drive a low rider, wear heavy athletic jackets, and cause trouble in the early morning. If colleges accept you with lower GPAs because you're black, go to college, get a degree, then go back and improve the impoverished community you might have come from. And if the government is about to increase your unemployment and welfare benefits at the expense of increasing capital gains on some people who worked hard and invested their hard earned money, even though you're able bodied enough to work, turn it down, and get that job...AKA no more entitlement. Even of the money is not as good, the self-esteem is priceless. And remember to..."Ask not what your country can do for you, but what you can do for your country".

On a side note, I do think however, Obama's presidency signals the end of Al Sharpton, Jessie Jackson, and Jeremiah Wright's careers. These are three guys who should have been defrocked a long time ago.

Ray Church: FICTION. You've got to love it when one of the questions is "does racism still exist" in America and one of the participants says yes and then proceeds to propagate every racial stereotype against African Americans that is out there. "It's their fault that they get police profiled," "They rip off the welfare system," "they get let in to college when they're not as good as the whites they're in class with." You've just spent eight years under a white president who was let into Harvard and Yale with substandard grades because of a genetic preference for the children of graduates, and Ace is moaning about affirmative action.

"The black guy" has to be editor of the Harvard Law Review and Magna Cum Laude from Harvard law school before he can compete against a guy who graduated almost last from a naval academy and a Wasilla Beauty Queen who took six years to earn her degree in Journalism. And even then "the black guy" has to face Limbaugh singing "Barack the Magic Negro" on his radio program.

But this is just looking at racism against African Americans, and we haven't even started with the gross attitude towards Hispanics in America, who are most often stereotyped as illegal immigrants (or just "illegals", as more than one Republican candidate has referred to them). Or Native Americans, who are still treated with contempt on land that was plain stolen from them 200 years ago.

Or Arabs... as in "Obama... I don't trust him... he's an Arab", and the 1/3 of Texans who think that Obama is a Muslim (and by association, Arab), or the Arab American actors who can't get a job outside of "Terrorist #3" in the latest season of 24, and since we're here at 411Mania, Shiek Abdul Bashir, the Iron Shiek or Muhammad Hassan, who must, by the irrefutable laws of wrestling stereotypes, play the bad guy no matter what the content of their character. Racism is alive and well in the good ol' US of A. Obama is the beginning, not the end of the end of racism.

Brett Leggett: FICTION. There's no denying the significance of Obama's win in perhaps narrowing the racial divide. African American children can now see that kids that look like them actually grow up to be president. Maybe some distrustful whites will be pleasantly surprised that a black man can actually run the country without "screwing things up."

Yet, what may illustrate the answer to this question best is Ace's response. Now I've never met him before and assume he's not a bad guy, but his brand of prejudice is the kind that most of us harbor to varying degrees. Everyone can spot the hood-wearing, cross burning kind of racism, but this is the kind of prejudice that is by far the most prevalent and difficult to recognize. This is the type of subtle fear, misunderstanding, and distrust especially common to my parents' generation.

Ace states, "it is no worse to vote against Obama because he's part black, than to vote for him because he's part black. I think this country was in such a hurry to bring in a man of color, they didn't bother to make sure he was the right man of color."

Ace needs to rethink. Before November 4th, the presidential box score was 43-0 in favor of old white men. So, if I were black, I'd probably be pretty pissed that when finally given a chance to vote for a qualified black candidate, we've got people saying, "wo, hold on now, let's all calmly think this over and not rush into voting for a black guy."

Eight years ago, maybe we should have said, "wo, hold on now, let's all calmly think this over and not rush into voting for this rich dumb white guy." Last time I checked, we didn't have a President Jesse Jackson, Al Sharpton, or Alan Keyes. African Americans weren't running to the polls to elect Flavor Flav or 50 Cent. Obama is highly qualified, intelligent, right on the issues, and one heck of an orator. Obviously the majority of Americans felt the same way.

Ace goes on to say, "I just think sometimes we go too far, and don't hold blacks accountable for their part too." This is the "no one's perfect, so it's all a wash," "look over there, not over here" distraction argument that has nothing to do with the civil rights of African Americans. Sure, there are problems in black neighborhoods, sure there are a high number of deadbeat dads who need to be held accountable. So, are you saying that black Americans don't deserve the same rights as whites, that blacks and whites are now really on 100% equal footing? Of course not. I can play this game too: I think we don't hold poor whites accountable for their part either. Maybe they should turn off the NASCAR, put down the deep-fried twinkie dipped in chocolate, caramel and batter, wrapped in bologna and cheese, and then dipped again, learn how to read, stop their 14-year old from getting knocked up, and get uncle Eddie off the booze.

O.K., Ace may not have been quite as blunt in his advice to blacks, but the implication of his "go to college...get a job" rant is that black people are lazy and need to start working as hard as us white people. Let's get real here. And don't get me started about his other piece of advice: "if you think police profile, don't...drive a low rider [or] wear heavy athletic jackets..."

As long as there are enough whites to vote against their own interests and keep their states red, there will be a racial divide. As long as "lifelong Democrats" choose to vote Republican because they're somehow not "comfortable" with the democratic candidate who just happens to be black, there will be a racial divide. As long as a white woman subconsciously clings tighter to her purse when seeing a black man walking down the sidewalk, there will be a racial divide. As long as we pretend this is "not my problem, because I'm not a racist," there will be a racial divide.

Obama's election is an important and encouraging first step, but it will take time. There needs to be enough time for the racists to die and their children to represent such a dwindling fringe minority in this country that those "not comfortable" voting for a black man can no longer afford not to.

4 Fictions. Agreement that racism might still have a throbbing pulse in America.
Thanks to the four participants this week. See you all in seven.