Do It For The Children - Let Gays Adopt
Posted by Enrique on 12.04.2008
Legislating immorality
Last week, a Florida judge stuck down that state's 31-year-old ban on gay adoption. It's a silver lining in what has otherwise been a cloudy year for homosexual rights - last month, voters in California, Arizona, and Florida passed gay marriage bans, and Arkansas voters approved a ban on "unmarried" couples from adopting foster children.
Florida's erstwhile adoption ban was the most explicitly homophobic in the country. Arkansas had the relative decency to discriminate against all unwed couples, including heterosexuals. Utah has a similar adoption ban on "unmarrieds," while Mississippi has an adoption ban on gay couples, but not gay singles. But now, thanks to an activist judge, Florida's gay adoption ban is a thing of the past (pending appeal, natch). Apparently activist judges aren't so bad after all.
The story so far...
You can read the 53-page ruling by Judge Cindy Lederman in PDF format here. The case centers around two boys, now aged 4 and 8, who have lived as foster children with longtime domestic partners Martin Gill and Tom Roe for the past four years. Lederman's ruling is full of details on Gill and Roe's not-very-hedonistic lifestyle - Gill prepares breakfast for the children, plays tennis with them in the park after school, and helps them with their homework. Lederman notes that the boys have come a long way since the day they were dropped off with Gill and Roe:
The children arrived at the home of [Gill] and Tom Roe, Sr., domestic partners, and Tom Roe, Sr.'s then eight-year old biological son, Tom Roe, Jr., on the evening of December 11, 2004. John, the elder sibling, arrived with his four-month old brother wearing a dirty adult sized t-shirt and sneakers four sizes too small that seemed more like flip-flops than shoes. Both children were suffering from scalp ringworm. Although John was clearly suffering from a severe case of ringworm, the medication brought from John's home to treat his scalp was unopened and expired. James, too, suffered from an untreated ear infection, as evidenced by the one-month old, nearly unused, medication. John did not speak and had no affect. He had one concern: changing, feeding, and caring for his baby brother. It was clear from the children's first evening at the [Gill]-Roe home that the baby's main caretaker was John, his four year old brother.
Once removed from that charming heterosexual household, the boys have had the opportunity to grow up in a stable, loving environment. In the case of "James," Gill and Roe are the only parents he's ever known. There is no question that preventing the adoption of the boys by Gill and Roe would have deleterious consequences, so naturally that's exactly what the state of Florida intended to do.
Gill's attorneys presented several experts whom Judge Lederman evidently found more persuasive than the experts presented by the Florida Department of Children and Families. One such not-very-persuasive expert was Dr. George Rekers, a clinical psychologist, and author of such books as "Growing Up Straight: What Every Family Should Know About Homosexuality." It probably won't surprise you to know that Dr. Rekers is also an ordained Baptist minister. Lederman disapprovingly cites passages from Rekers' books in her ruling, including this little gem - "An honest scholarly search for the truth about homosexuality should not stop with psychological or medical information alone. Wise professionals should also consider evidence for moral truth as well. The bible teaches that people are foolish if they deny God's reality and live their lives as though he were not there."
In other words, ignore all that annoying scientific evidence and believe the bible. Good thing the bible isn't full of fictional stories that are open to wide interpretation, no?
The Department's other expert was Dr. Walter Schumm, who had once co-authored a paper in which we wrote, "Within the limitations imposed by context, errors in translation and errors of individual interpretation, we prefer to accept the authority of the Bible as the best guide for sexual decision making, as well as for many other areas of life." Schumm's co-author on that paper was none other than - wait for it - Dr. George Rekers. I hope the state of Florida got a two-for-one discount on these expert witnesses.
With all due respect to bible-believing Christians, you don't need an expert to tell you that homosexuals are, at the very least, perfectly adequate parents. All you need is to have met a gay person once in your life, and maybe had a conversation with them. If you did, you wouldn't sound as gratingly ignorant as most social conservatives do when they oppose gay marriage and/or adoption. As far as I can tell, this brand of religion-based homophobia is motivated by the sincere belief that sexual orientation is a matter of choice rather than inborn. This belief is sincerely mistaken.
No one would choose to be gay, because it would be a choice against self-interest. Even in this relatively progressive era, homosexuals routinely face ostracization from family and peers. Constitutional amendments banning gay marriage pass with relative ease all over the country. To be gay is to be a member of a group that is regularly discriminated against by individuals as well as state legislatures - no one would choose that. It's simply illogical to believe that homosexuality is a matter of choice - but of course, religion has never been very big on logic.
Although I agree with Judge Lederman's eminently sensible ruling, the reality is that judicial decrees of this kind can prompt backlashes. The successful passage of California's Proposition 8, which amended the state constitution to ban gay marriage, was partially a retaliation against the state supreme court's previous ruling that legalized homosexual nuptials. In a sense, Lederman has unwittingly strengthened the hand of gay rights opponents. At the same time, what else can gay rights activists do? Historically, the voting public at large has been slow to recognize the civil rights of minority groups. How long are homosexuals supposed to wait for a majority of Americans to attain enlightenment? If it were up to the voting public and their elected representatives, Gill and Roe wouldn't be able to adopt the children they had parented for four years. At some point, the courts have to intervene when civil rights are being violated. (My 411 colleague Andrew Tobolowsky makes a similar argument here.)
Private individuals are entitled to make their own moral judgments, even when their definition of "morality" is to discriminate against people they don't care for. Public institutions, on the other hand, are obliged to provide equal protection under the law. It's clear that Florida's adoption ban was regressive and prejudicial. It had nothing to do with the well-being of children - it was about the state enforcement of religious morality. Hopefully, Lederman's ruling will hold up on appeal. In the end, she made the right decision for the children. Think of the children.
You want gays to be able to adopt kids?!?! Are you fucking INSANE?!!!!!!?
If they adopt a kid he will grow up with serious SERIOUS PSYCHOLOGICAL DAMAGE!. He will forever be harrassed BULLIED and humiliated by his/her peers for having 2 daddies.
Society will shun that poor child and in turn that kid might retaliate some day. think of another columbine shooting
Furthermore, the kid will grow up in a house of SIN and will end up having NO CONCEPT of morality what-so-ever. It will be spreading gay-ness and implicitly say that its ok.
Being gay is a disease. The gay person cant help himself BUT it is our MORAL OBLIGATION and RESPONSIBILITY to steer him back to the "straight" path if you will
Your apathetic nature can be soo dissapointing sometimes Enrique. 1st the whole dont vote thing and now this. So so disapointing
Posted By: hhhh (Guest) on December 04, 2008 at 02:49 AM
"Private individuals are entitled to make their own moral judgments, even when their definition of "morality" is to discriminate against people they don't care for. Public institutions, on the other hand, are obliged to provide equal protection under the law."
Then, you are approve gay marriage? It falls under the same guidelines.
Posted By: David (Guest) on December 04, 2008 at 04:24 AM
Enrique, I don't agree with you often, but on this issue, RIGHT ON!
Posted By: The Great Capt. Smooth (Guest) on December 04, 2008 at 05:33 AM
Thank you for that well thought out piece.
Gay men and lesbian's aren't looking to adopt to make a political statement or to brainwash and create more gays and lesbians.
We want to adopt because just like everyone else we look forward to having a family and helping raise a young person into an adult.
It's often upsetting the assumption that just because we are gay we are unsuitable parents when time and time again I have seen children abused and neglected by the preferred child rearing option.
Sexuality, color, religious affiliation or even money do not indicate good or bad parents.
Posted By: Guest#2258 (Guest) on December 04, 2008 at 05:49 AM
If I was a kid, I wouldn't want two dads. I'd want a mother and a father.
Posted By: Anonymous (Guest) on December 04, 2008 at 07:13 AM
I'm pretty sure if you're a foster child you would prefer living with two moms and two dads instead of the alternate choice of not having an home.
Posted By: D-Man (Registered) on December 04, 2008 at 09:15 AM
If I'd grown up with two moms I'd have felt like I could get away with ANYTHING growing up.
Posted By: M:-X (Guest) on December 04, 2008 at 09:57 AM
All taboo is inherently hocum. The only universal taboo is that there must always be a taboo.
Posted By: M:-X (Guest) on December 04, 2008 at 09:58 AM
I don't often agree with these opinon pieces you do. This one is a real exception. Good job.
Posted By: Skintymcedger (Guest) on December 04, 2008 at 10:51 AM
A gay can have kids, just have sex with someone of the opposite sex and don't get married.
Don't bring moral judgment into societies laws...
Being able to justify moral judgment is the height of human reasoning, according to Aristotle.
With that being said, our society and its laws run on an ethical code. Right now, in our society, it's not ethical to have gays marry or adopt kids. We voted, and we as a society said "No".
There are all kinds of reasons; most people will blame religion- which is unfair. The primary reason is that most Americans simply don't feel it's acceptable for gays to raise kids for a variety of reasons, including many already posted.
Is it wrong to think that way? That's a moral judgment...And again a moral judgment is an individual's act on an opinion.
Moral judgments are a scary thing to base laws on- it doesn't set a standard for everyone, or even the majority- just individuals.
The Columbine shooters, Hitler and Osama Bin Laden all have justifiable moral judgment in their actions, is it acceptable in our ethical laws? No.
Societies laws should be written to protect the majority based on ethical standards- not individual moral judgment.
Take a graduate level ethics class Enrique, before you start throwing around concepts that will set your agenda back twenty years.
Posted By: The Spook (Guest) on December 04, 2008 at 10:57 AM
"If they adopt a kid he will grow up with serious SERIOUS PSYCHOLOGICAL DAMAGE!. He will forever be harrassed BULLIED and humiliated by his/her peers for having 2 daddies.
Society will shun that poor child and in turn that kid might retaliate some day. think of another columbine shooting
Furthermore, the kid will grow up in a house of SIN and will end up having NO CONCEPT of morality what-so-ever. It will be spreading gay-ness and implicitly say that its ok.
Being gay is a disease. The gay person cant help himself BUT it is our MORAL OBLIGATION and RESPONSIBILITY to steer him back to the "straight" path if you will
Your apathetic nature can be soo dissapointing sometimes Enrique. 1st the whole dont vote thing and now this. So so disapointing"
WHOAH! That has to be the single most close minded and DISCRIMINATORY thing I have heard in a LONG time.
First off...where is your serious scientific PROOF that a child growing up with two fathers or two mothers does serious psychological damage to a child? Growing up, I knew a kid who had "two dads". Guess what...he grew up perfectly straight and perfectly level headed. A kid might go and do Columbine shootings like that? From what I remember the kids who pulled off the Columbine shooting were straight.
Now if BULLYING is the problem, that is totally different. Based on your logic, the victim needs to change, because society might bully him. Oh, Don't hold the bullies accountable for the fact that they are discriminating against somebody because something about them or their family is "different"!!!!
So based on this logic...the African Americans who were hanged in the South pre-Civil rights deserved it...because they were black? Or if a woman gets raped its her fault for having a vagina?
He would grow up in a House of Sin??? No concept of morality???? Spreading gay-ness???? Its YOUR responsibility to steer him on the 'straight' path???? Who the hell made you the morality police?!?
What are you afraid that the homosexuals go out there and actively recruit...I don't know, like Evangelical Christians? Are you afraid they are going to shoot you with their "gay-ray"? Give you the "gay-cooties". You can be perfectly moral and gay. You can be perfectly moral and atheist. You don't NEED God to have a compatible morality for society.
Live and let live? Why the hell is it YOUR job to make sure nobodies gay? Next thing you know, your going to tell me I have no morals because I might not accept the same God as you. And that is YOUR job to save me.
Assuming your views come from a Christian fundamentalist point of view (I could be wrong), do me a favor. Point out ANYWHERE in the New Testament Jesus makes mention of it being okay to discriminate against homosexuals? Or mentions homosexuality at all????
Posted By: Elliot (Guest) on December 04, 2008 at 11:12 AM
"Societies laws should be written to protect the majority based on ethical standards- not individual moral judgment."
And what of the rights of the minority.
"What is right is not always popular, and what is popular is not always right."
Women didn't have the right to vote until 1920. Was that right? Slavery was legal in this country until 1865. Was that right? 11 million people were 'legally' rounded up in Europe and exterminated. Was that right?
Posted By: Elliot (Guest) on December 04, 2008 at 11:25 AM
Honestly, do you really want to end the whole gay-marriage issue? Support it. Here's the logic. Call it the 'Alternative Lifestyle' bill. But then you come to the realization, that if you support gay marriage, you have to support polygamy. Its only fair right? The more 'alternative lifestyles' you add to this agenda...the more and more support it will lose.
Posted By: MydniteSon (Guest) on December 04, 2008 at 11:38 AM
hhhh: Being gay is a disease? As a straight man, it's my moral obligation and responsibility to try and straighten them out? Are you actually being serious?
I don't tend to wish bad things on people, but I really hope something inconceivably awful happens to you. You, and people who think like you, are the one with serious psychological damage. So a kid who grows up with gay parents is going to turn into another Columbine shooter? I wonder, how in the blue Hell did you become indoctrinated with some of the most ignorant, incorrect views I've ever heard. Please take your monumentally-ignorant views and please, PLEASE kill yourself.
Posted By: Talon (Registered) on December 04, 2008 at 11:47 AM
hate to discriminate against all the poor sheep humpers out there that just wanna hump in peace and raise man-sheep babies. How about polygamy or gay polygamy . People sacrificing animals would be ok to. Damn so many people with different morals i gotta be ok with or else i'm just discriminating against them and makes me a bad person.
Posted By: Guest#2246 (Guest) on December 04, 2008 at 12:02 PM
Everybody's got an opinion, wow. So mis-informed.
Read the wikipedia article before you spout off: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_parenting
Posted By: Rob (Guest) on December 04, 2008 at 12:18 PM
Elliot, no offense, but your missing the point, and granted, this being a message board, and being at work, I'm not being 100% clear.
There has never been any real protection for a minority group unless the majority is willing to give it to them, or the minority fights for it and wins (which is kind of the case here).
Yes, all the cases that you cited are examples of people being discriminated against.
But what the Enrique is arguing is that people should be held accountable on morals rather then ethics.
This is impossible because morals are based on single person's actions of events.
"What "ought" I do in this situation..." is a moral judgment.
"I need to steal food to feed my family" is a moral judgment- but illegal ethically. Our society does not tolerate thieves. But we can all understand the moral judgment of the thief, right?
For example, Hitler thought he was morally justified to round up all the Jews and kill them...he believed that he was doing the right thing, that he was morally justified. Is it "right" ethically, for the Germans it was, but for our society hell no!
Considering other people's moral judgment is the height of human understanding...but it doesn't write effective laws very well.
A law protects a society's ethics. You can't make a case using moral judgment, only ethical cause, which means you have to include the welfare of everyone involved.
There are no laws saying that gays can't have kids- they can! They have to have sex with someone of the opposite sex, just like everyone else.
When it comes to adopting, then you have to include the welfare of the child- not just the person adopting and that's when ethics plays a role, not moral judgment.
Our society does not think it's in the child's best interest to be raised by gays in general. If they did then this would not be an issue.
Do I think that gays can raise a child?
I can understand the moral argument, and see that gays want to do this for a variety of reasons, but it is still ethically wrong due to the situation the child would be placed in.
That's my opinion- that's my moral judgment based on the situation that presents itself.
Posted By: The Spook (Guest) on December 04, 2008 at 12:28 PM
The ABA must be "licking their chops" over the business to be generated from same sex divorce and subsequent custody battles.
Is it intellectually defensible to be pro-same sex marriage/adoption and anti-polygamy/adoption?
Posted By: AdmChesterMynutz (Guest) on December 04, 2008 at 12:34 PM
Why is it exactly that opponents of gay marraige always seem to have to shoehorn the polygamy into it and attatch it? It doesn't belong there, it's unrelated, and it is ONLY being used in roder to weaken the gay marraige stance.
Posted By: AdamS (Guest) on December 04, 2008 at 12:35 PM
Enrique, you seem to take the absolute worst case scenario and use it to justify your point. You seem to imply (whether intentionally or not) that heterosexual parents aren't as good as homosexual parents ("Once removed from that charming heterosexual household..."), which is ridiculous.
Heterosexual parents are at least as good as homosexual parents, if not better.
I can't see though, how having two fathers or two mothers would be any better for the children. I do see, how it could be worse. There is easily a host of psychological issues that could be created in this kind of household. Some may escape it, but at least some will have some issues that could have been avoided with a typical mother-father relationship.
I guess I should add (to give some insight into why I hold the previous beliefs) that I believe that homosexuality is wrong. Not because somebody told me so, however, but because it works against humanity. Humans are designed for heterosexuality, otherwise we would all be asexual. To take a body designed for heterosexuality and use it for homosexuality makes no sense. Sure, you have urges, but I'd assume those are purely of a raw sexual desire, which could easily be directed towards heterosexual intercourse. This is how we were designed.
Posted By: Homie (Guest) on December 04, 2008 at 01:15 PM
Straight Marriage = 2 people
Gay Marriage = 2 people
Polygamy = Infinite people
Get the difficulties in trying to support polygamy now?
If people want to be polygamists unofficially, fine, but otherwise it is too much headache for the state to handle in terms of giving advantages to couples in property, taxes, insurance, and so on.
Posted By: Kane (Guest) on December 04, 2008 at 01:24 PM
Spook, thank you for clarifying your position and I respect that you have a well thought out and logical take on the issue. You don't come across as self-righteous.
So correct me if I'm interpreting this wrong; one of your argument as to why homosexuals should not be able to adopt or have children is because physiologically they are in capable. If that is the case, a woman who is barren or maybe had a hysterectomy and is no longer capable of bearing kids should not adopt either. That's what it sounds like to me.
I don't think sexual preference ie, who someone has sex with and chooses as a partner should have bearing on the person's capability to raise children. Someone can be a fantastic father/mother and be a lousy husband/wife.
Should somebody who is single not be allowed to adopt? I mean, if the person has to work, they can't conceivably be the best parent possible. Its kind of an asinine argument.
Is it better for a kid to be in a dysfunctional "heterosexual" home or a caring and nurturing "homosexual" home?
This is where I disagree; I don't think sexual orientation/preference should be part of the criteria for adoption.
Posted By: Elliot (Guest) on December 04, 2008 at 01:29 PM
Being physically unable to have children is my reasoning against homosexuality, not my reasoning against allowing homosexual couples to adopt children. I was just explaining my beliefs on issues surrounding this one, so people can see where I'm coming from.
I don't think homosexual couples should be allowed to adopt because it can cause psychological problems for the child. I'm not saying that all homosexuals are bad people, nor am I saying that all homosexuals are unfit to be parents. Of course, I admit that many heterosexual people are unfit to be parents as well, that's just the nature of the beast.
Simply basing it on three choices (father/father, mother/mother, father/mother) and leaving out all of the modifying factors (ie. loving homosexual parents vs. lousy heterosexual parents), I believe the father/mother option is by far the healthiest option, to the point where we shouldn't even bother with the other two.
Posted By: Homie (Guest) on December 04, 2008 at 03:10 PM
For your ease of reading, here is a translation of the post by hhhh.
"Letting gay people adopt is bad for the kids, because the kids will have to deal with closed-minded asshole bigots like me every day of their lives."
It's pretty much the same argument these backwood inbred hicks used to rally against interracial marriage. "The children will be tormented by racist closed-minded bigots like us constantly, so a black person should not be allowed to marry a white person!"
Posted By: Scott B (Guest) on December 04, 2008 at 03:19 PM
Less than 10% of the population is gay and I would imagine only a small population of those numbers would even consider adoption ... too busy in Highway rest stops and all ... So what does it really matter? The amount of loving heterosexual people on long adoption waiting lists can attest that only the right fits happen.
Posted By: Guest#0421 (Guest) on December 04, 2008 at 03:26 PM
Homie.
Let me define for you house have two dads or moms could be better than one dad and one mom. Image that two kids, roughly 4 and 1 years old, are found. They have scalp ringworm. They are wearing nasty, dirty, ill-fitting clothes. One might be suffering from an untreated earache. And let's say for this example that one seemed to be very, very good at caring for the other dispite is young age, leading one to believe that he had been taking care of the younger for some time. Now let's throw it out and say that two men fosterd these children, cared for them well, and then adopted them into a stable home. This radical example just might show that the two dad world was better for these children than the dad/mom world they had before. I know it's an unlikely scenario, but just run with it.
Posted By: xjuggernaughtx (Guest) on December 04, 2008 at 03:42 PM
Thank you for pointing out the difference between a gay marriage and polygamist marriage. I am not an opponent of gay marriage so the fact that I have asked an honest intellectual question should not preclude supporters from offering an intellectually sound response.
Walk me through the argument.
Marriage traditionally defined as between a consenting man and consenting women.
The same sex argument is that every adult has a civil right to consent to marry any other consenting adult.
The same sex marriage argument is also that consenting adults do not have a civil right to simultaneously marry more than one consenting adult but may marry multiple consenting adults over time.
By what reasoning do pro-same sex bigamists use to actively discriminate against the civil rights of non gender based polygamists?
If want to use a number over time to deny the rights of polygamists, how is it so unreasonable to use gender to deny the civil rights of same-sex bigamist?
Posted By: AdmChesterMynutz (Guest) on December 04, 2008 at 03:57 PM
Kane are you saying that civil rights will only be protected when bureaucratically expedient?
Posted By: AdmChesterMynutz (Guest) on December 04, 2008 at 04:00 PM
OK, seriously. What SPECIFIC psychological problems are we talking about here if a child is raised by two gay people? I can understand standard emotional disturbance issues if there was abuse in the household but we're just talking about two people who were are going to assume want the best for their kid. What is the specific psychological problem of being raised by gay people? It can't be any worse than being raised by child molesters or physical/verbal abusers. They're gonna get picked on? That's not the kid's fault or even the adopted parents' fault; that's other people wanting to make an issue out of nothing. Don't give me the whole 'gay parents = gay kids' thing. If that's the case, why are heterosexual parents producing gay people? It's not a 'lifestyle'; it's not even a preference. It's what they're attracted to. If you're straight and you think it's a choice, wake up tomorrow morning and "be gay" and see how well it works out for you. A straight person shouldn't have any say in whether or not a gay couple can get married or adopt a kid because it doesn't affect straight people. What, a few more facilities with rainbow stickers on them are going to pop up and annoy you? Fuck off, no one's trying to take rights away from straight people or forcing anyone to be gay. You either are or you're not. Polygamy is a choice. Bestiality deals with one party having no say (legal or otherwise) in the matter. Those things have nothing to do with homosexuals so stop bring them up just to defend your stupid, homophobic, God-fearing arguments. I would so love to see whatever fallout may occur from these people who preach God's word if the Lord Himself were to present himself and say, "Hey, I think gays are OK".
Posted By: His Bubbliness (Guest) on December 04, 2008 at 04:29 PM
Kane are you saying that civil rights will only be protected when bureaucratically expedient?
Posted By: AdmChesterMynutz (Guest) on December 04, 2008 at 04:00 PM
=====================
No, but thanks for playing. Numbers and gender are different. Think about it.
Posted By: Kane (Guest) on December 04, 2008 at 04:36 PM
Number = Quantity
Any gender (remember not every person is a man or a woman - some have both, multiple, and no parts that make up society's construct of "sex") = Quality
The reasons against any 2+ quantity have social policy concerns dating back when western societies said No to polygamy. Those concerns still exist. The gender based concerns should no longer exist since gays are perfectly capable of raising "normal" children and being a "normal" married couple.
Ask one of those women who escaped the polygamist camps if they think polygamy works, or what the children of polygamists think about it.
I doubt too many children raised by homosexual couples are complaining.
Posted By: The Sam Man (Guest) on December 04, 2008 at 04:46 PM
I dont understand why opponents of gay marriage even exist. Why do they even care what people do in the privacy of their homes? If youre all so worried about other people's kids, why don't you go attack parents who physically or emotionally abuse their kids, why don't you attack heterosexual people who have kids but put them up for adoption, after all, they will probably have significant psychological damage with the fact that their birth parents never wanted them. Let gay people get married, let gay people adopt. Its going to happen anyway, these religious nuts are just delaying the inevitable.
Posted By: mike (Guest) on December 04, 2008 at 04:49 PM
The child is obviously going to be picked on for having two dads, only an idealist would be blind enough to think this won't happen.
Could you imagine being a child trying to get to grips with why all the other children have a mummy and a daddy and you have two daddies? That's too much for a young child to have to come to terms with, how are they supposed to understand? It's too much.
Could you imagine the complication for that child when it comes to sex education?
I'm not homophobic at all, I have absolutely no problem with anyone's sexual orientation but I do believe that it's much better for a child to be adopted by a traditional man/woman couple.
There will always be couples who for some reason can't have children and want to adopt, why would you chose a same-sex couple over the standard mother/father unit?
Posted By: Guest#1052 (Guest) on December 04, 2008 at 05:00 PM
The child is obviously going to be picked on for having two dads, only an idealist would be blind enough to think this won't happen.
Could you imagine being a child trying to get to grips with why all the other children have a mummy and a daddy and you have two daddies? That's too much for a young child to have to come to terms with, how are they supposed to understand? It's too much.
Could you imagine the complication for that child when it comes to sex education?
I'm not homophobic at all, I have absolutely no problem with anyone's sexual orientation but I do believe that it's much better for a child to be adopted by a traditional man/woman couple.
There will always be couples who for some reason can't have children and want to adopt, why would you chose a same-sex couple over the standard mother/father unit?
Posted By: Guest#1052 (Guest) on December 04, 2008 at 05:00 PM
===============
Then you must be ignorant of the current terrible state our adoption and foster care services are across the country.
Allowing gays to adopt them won't alleviate all the burden of the state, but it's not going to hurt it.
Taking one kid out of state child care services and placing them with a qualified gay couple helps the state that much more, as well as helps the child live in a loving home rather than some state run group home and being kicked to the curb with nothing to his name when he turns 18.
And yes, kids with gay parents might be picked on the same way males who act effeminately are picked on, the same way fat kids are picked on, the same way poor kids are picked on, the same way kids with glasses are picked on, the same way nerds are picked on, the same way Jews are picked on, the same way red heads and Gingers are picked on.
The answer is not to concede to the bullying but to teach tollerance and punish those who don't want to be tolerant accordingly so they know its not right. If you don't like a kid because he's got two dads, keep it to yourself, but don't like that child get away with picking on the kid with two dads.
Posted By: Slammies (Guest) on December 04, 2008 at 05:10 PM
If you're a kid in a foster home, would you rather be adopted and live in a home with one loving parent/two loving gay parents - or would you rather live in the foster care system until you get kicked out for reaching the age of majority and get kicked out without a dime to your name, no where to go, and probably a shit education to boot?
Uh, I think a little teasing but hope for a future would be better than the dead ends our country's broken child care services lead to.
Some of these responses are astounding. America truly is full of bigots.
Posted By: Phantom (Guest) on December 04, 2008 at 05:13 PM
"A bigot is a person who is intolerant of opinions, lifestyles or identities differing from his or her own"
That means hhhh you are a bigot by definition and based on your hate filled comments I also believe that you are a closeted homosexual, angry at yourself for having homoerotic thoughts and probably habits...good luck with that
Posted By: David Ficher (Guest) on December 04, 2008 at 05:30 PM
Kane,
Same sex and polygamy are different as same sex bigamy is different that traditional marriage. Saying it is different therefore you may discriminate is not a solution. I continue to look for a reason why same sex bigamists feel it is ok to discriminate against polygamists.
Sam the Man,
Your polygamy example is the identical argument as saying that all homosexuals are pedophiles. How can you pass judgment on all consenting polygamists by citing the polygamists in Texas? I am not talking about a polygamist compound, I am referring to consenting polygamists as your neighbor.
I truly don't care one way or the other. I find it interesting that in arguing for same sex civil rights you pass judgment and discriminate against polygamy by using the same arguments currently used against same sex marriage.
Posted By: AdmChesterMynutz (Guest) on December 04, 2008 at 05:47 PM
xjuggernaughtx
The sexuality of the parents has nothing to do with the example. The gay parents could have mistreated their children. The kids could have been saved by a straight family. All the example says is it is better to be in a healthy family than a neglectful one. The kids weren't saved because the new parents were gay. I dated a girl who came from a similar background (although not nearly as severe) who was saved by a straight couple.
I realize there are special circumstances. That's why I said "leaving out all modifying factors (ie. loving homosexual parents vs. lousy heterosexual parents)."
As for circumstances of having of having gay parents... it goes further than being bullied. Having only one gender of parent can change how a child perceives the other gender. This can have a huge impact on all of their relationships, especially their sexual relationships.
Speaking of sexual relationships, we (as children) are told that we have sex to procreate. However, gay couples cannot procreate. So why do they have sex? To take their minds off things? For fun? How does a child or young teenager comprehend these things?
Do you see how having same-sex parents can affect a child?
Now, realize that I am comparing the ideal same-sex couple to the ideal man-woman couple. I realize somebody is going to say "What if the man's abusive?" or something of the like. That could easily happen in a same-sex relationship as well. I am removing all circumstance and simply observing the core.
Posted By: Homie (Guest) on December 04, 2008 at 05:52 PM
Speaking of sexual relationships, we (as children) are told that we have sex to procreate. However, gay couples cannot procreate. So why do they have sex? To take their minds off things? For fun? How does a child or young teenager comprehend these things?
Do you see how having same-sex parents can affect a child?
Now, realize that I am comparing the ideal same-sex couple to the ideal man-woman couple. I realize somebody is going to say "What if the man's abusive?" or something of the like. That could easily happen in a same-sex relationship as well. I am removing all circumstance and simply observing the core.
Posted By: Homie (Guest) on December 04, 2008 at 05:52 PM
===================
Homie, your logic is flawed by poor teaching. If we taught kids that blacks were not humans, does that make it true? Sex is not just for procreation and teaching children that is miseducation. Sex is for pleasure too, as is clearly indicated by the practice of people all around the world, the animals who do it for fun in nature, as well as in the Bible, if you want to go the religious route.
And by your logic, parents raised by single parents are no good either. I was raised only by my mother, yet I know how to interact reasonably well with both sexes in the constructs that society has placed around those sexes, and I am heterosexual, not homosexual.
Just because gay dads kiss doesn't mean that they're teaching a young boy to kiss men too. What crappy logic. You also assume that all gay men are "flaming homos." A boy can learn to "roughhouse" with other boys from gay dads. A boy can learn to treat a woman respectfully from gay dads. It's not like gay people don't know how to behave toward other people in a civilized manner.
AdmChesterMynutz, you still are ignoring quality versus quantity. Please stop. Thanks.
Posted By: Sam the Man (Guest) on December 04, 2008 at 06:30 PM
Homie, you're not taught what sex to be attacked to. What stupid thinking.
No one can force you to like men or women. Otherwise we wouldn't have gay people. The choice comes within, independent of what you're taught.
My parents didn't teach me to get a boner when my girlfriend is naked and about to hop on for a ride. My internal makeup decided that. For others, their internal makeup decides they get boners for men. For evidence, see: All the gay kids that came from straight parents.
Posted By: The Big Blue Machine (Guest) on December 04, 2008 at 06:33 PM
The ultimate question is this:
If your child was gay, would you look them in the eye and say
"No, you can't get married and shouldn't be allowed to"
and
"No, you can't and shouldn't be able to adopt a child because you're attracted to the same sex, therefore you wouldn't be a good parent?"
Seriously. Just think about it. COULD you and WOULD you say that to a gay child of yours, on the basis of their sexual preference alone?
If you could or would, what a heartbreaking moment that would be, one that would probably destroy your relationship with your child.
Posted By: Manbearpig (Guest) on December 04, 2008 at 06:38 PM
I'll be honest, I'm semi-against polygamy, or at least I was until I thought about it logically. If a family can prove to be capable, regardless of sexual orientation they are, then in theory they should be able to adopt or have children of their own.
A child being picked on or not being able to comprehend the situation is not an adequate reason against. Children will always be picked on for being different and they know about sex and such far earlier then we teach them ourselves.
My issue with polygamy is that it is fine when it is a necessity, such as in a country where there are far more females then males and the males bring home the bacon. Thus it is safer for all parties for polygamy to exist. But if you live in a society where that ISN'T necessary then polygamy should be taken off the table.
I look at animals that live in prides. It isn't always the birth parents that look after the children, sex occurs between different partners and none of them develop any serious issues. We're social animals, even if we are human and intellectually superior. It shouldn't make a difference.
Posted By: Protieus (Guest) on December 04, 2008 at 07:38 PM
This comment is aimed at all those people that think children will be emotionally scared from having gay parents.
You keep saying this true with no evidence or citation of any kind. This is called pulling something out of your ass.
Rational people instead of saying what they think will happen study what happens in real life.
I will even prove links so you can see I am not just making it up. These are just the first things I found not an exhaustive list.
http://www.sacbee.com/110/story/1024153.html
"40 published small sample studies find nearly unanimously that same-sex couples do as good a job as any other type of family in raising healthy children."
If the small sample thing worries you
"The census data show that children raised by same-sex couples are just as likely as children raised by heterosexual couples to make normal progress through elementary school, given the same levels of parental education and income."
You can download a report commissioned by the Canadian government into lesbian parents here:
http://www.familyequality.org/blog/?p=161
"having two moms is just as good (if not better) than having opposite-sex parents:"
"Children living with two mothers and children living with a mother and father have the same levels and qualities of social competence.”
Posted By: Rich (Guest) on December 04, 2008 at 08:29 PM
Big Blue Machine -
I see you want to get into that argument. Well, here we go. Have you ever heard the theory that our environment as a child shapes our mind? Where one situation from your childhood can change the way you view things as an adult? For example, a girl I was very close with was molested by her babysitter as a small child. Now, as an adult, she has very unhealthy thoughts about herself sexually, and treats her body as something to be used. She believes it all comes back to that one event.
You can extrapolate that and apply it to homosexuality. I took martial arts classes with a homosexual woman. I lived in a very small community where everyone knew everyone. The woman was a guard at the provincial penitentiary. People said that as a young child, she was sexually abused by her father. She grew up with an intense hatred towards men, leading to her sexual lifestyle choice and occupation.
You see, events as a child can affect your life as an adult. It doesn't have to be something huge like these examples, it can be something smaller, like a stern mother and a relaxed father.
It's my belief that we are all born hetero-sexual (since procreation is a human being's primary carnal objective), but some people's thoughts are twisted by their childhood. Of course, there's no rule that if A happens you get outcome B, as everyone deals with things differently.
Confronting homosexual desires involves confronting your own demons, I believe.
So there, you call it "stupid thinking," I think it's a very logical, well-thought out process. I respect your ideas, I hope you'd respect mine.
Sam the Man -
I never said that if the Dads are gay, the kids will be gay. Nor did I say that gays "don't know how to behave toward other people in a civilized manner." I said that a same-sex family can cause psychological problems for a child that can be avoided in a man-woman family.
For instance, a boy is being raised by two fathers. He lives in a happy home. Can you see how he might infer that women are unnecessary in a family because his is happy without them? Even if he is taught that women are important, subconsciously he might hold a belief that women are unneeded, or worse, just bad.
These kinds of things affect us our entire lives. Not everyone is affected like this (as you pointed out, being raised by a single mother), but many are. You cannot deny that.
As for sex, the purpose of sex is procreation. It is used for other things, but it is there for procreation. If you throw that out the window, and use it only for pleasure, as homosexual couples do, you could pass unhealthy ideas about sex on to your children. Again, this is not a good thing.
Posted By: Homie (Guest) on December 04, 2008 at 08:33 PM
Manbearpig -
I would say that to somebody based on their sexual preference alone. If I took into consideration that they were my child, I would word it a bit softer, but yes, I would tell them that.
I believe you have to stand by your ideals. Feeling guilty about them doesn't mean you should give them up.
Posted By: Homie (Guest) on December 04, 2008 at 08:50 PM
We are not all born heterosexual. Scientific evidence points strongly to sexual orientation being determined before birth.
What you believe does mean shit quite frankly.
Just because you think something does not make it true and when all observable evidence points the other direction it is you how is wrong.
Posted By: Rich (Guest) on December 04, 2008 at 08:57 PM
Hey, listen: When the day comes that there are as many or more heterosexual couples willing to adopt as there are kids that need to be adopted, go ahead, give priority to the heterosexual couple, JUST BECAUSE large numbers of people in society are ignorant dimwitted assholes and could torment the poor kid.
But until that day comes, and there are decent homosexual couples willing to help out, LET THEM.
Jackasses.
Posted By: Zack (Guest) on December 04, 2008 at 09:23 PM
So I'm a young (27), gay, monogamously coupled guy. I live with my partner in an apartment just like most folks, I go to work everyday, I come home and watch a little wrestling or basketball on TV or catch up on the political news while I do my laundry and stuff... and we talk about our dreams and aspirations.
We talk about buying a house and how nice it would be to raise a family someday. It's fun taking my sisters kids out and showing them a good time but at some point I am looking forward to starting my own family (and they have never been tormented for having a gay uncle or felt threatened by that).
I just don't see why people would oppose that, or say that I don't have the right to the same ordinary life that others have just because I am not turned on or emotionally attracted to women. I just like guys instead. I don't want to have sex with a goat, nor do I want to have multiple partners. You know there was a time when I dated more, I'm sure not much unlike lots of people in their early 20s, but I've moved beyond that like many of you have and I just want to be able to follow in the footsteps of every other decent, normal family out there.
Posted By: Robbie (Guest) on December 04, 2008 at 09:25 PM
To Robbie:
If you wanted a normal life you should simply turn straight. Being gay is an alternative lifestyle. It can be corrected and cured.
That said, God didnt intend kids to be raised by gay couples because if he did they would be able to pro-create. Since gays cant procreate that means God doesnt want no gay couples.
Simple enough?
Posted By: hhhh (Guest) on December 04, 2008 at 10:07 PM
Manbearpig -
I would say that to somebody based on their sexual preference alone. If I took into consideration that they were my child, I would word it a bit softer, but yes, I would tell them that.
I believe you have to stand by your ideals. Feeling guilty about them doesn't mean you should give them up.
Posted By: Homie (Guest) on December 04, 2008 at 08:50 PM
=================
That is a cop out Homie. You can't phrase it any differently to your child because that is point blank the underlying message you are saying to them. You are telling your child they have less rights than the rest of society because they're not attracted to the right sex.
Would you also campaign to have your grandchildren taken away from your son if his wife died after 7 years and then he revealed he was bisexual and was marrying another man? Would he be an unfit father then to raise children that he's already been raising to say - the age of 3 with his wife?
You can stand by your ideals - like black people are sub-human - but that doesn't make them right.
And I hope the day comes that you have to say that to your child, and watch as they never speak to you again. I hope your ideals were worth it, and that by losing a relationship with the child you have saved the world and humanity from all of the corruption that comes with homosexuality.
Posted By: Manbearpig (Guest) on December 04, 2008 at 10:14 PM
"Confronting homosexual desires involves confronting your own demons, I believe."
LOL, Homie, just lol.
Great, now every homosexual has been sexually abused at some point in their lives and that is why they are gay, because they are afraid of the abuse of the other sex.
Get outta town buster, that's whack.
Yes, it is entirely possible that some people have turned to the same sex because of childhood abuse, but that is not the case for most homosexuals because so many state that its just something they've naturally felt because they were "born that way."
I'm going to go out on a limb here and guess our friend Robbie here in the comments section a few above was not abused, but by your logic he needs to think long and hard about which family member tossed his salad when he was a child because that's the reason he's gay.
As they say in the Wrestling section of this site: EPIC FAIL
Everything you think MIGHT happen from the child's surroundings has not been proved by any scientific study from an independent research group (not the Christian funded ones, because you know which way those Christian funded ones are being funded to go - as legitimate as Coke sponsoring a study of their soda to prove health benefits), and in fact has been proven wrong - with some evidence cited there by Rich above here in the comments.
Posted By: The Big Blue Machine (Guest) on December 04, 2008 at 10:26 PM
Homie, you act like a boy raised by two gay men will never see another woman until the day they turn 18.
Gay men have mothers and sisters and aunts and female friends. Boys raised by gays will go to school and interact with females. Chances are, that boy will be friends with other children who have heterosexual parents.
It's not like they're going to live in some homo-bubble. They will be exposed to a wide range of societal constructs that we have and can learn about women from more than their homo-dads.
Posted By: Zorro (Guest) on December 04, 2008 at 10:44 PM
"That said, God didnt intend kids to be raised by gay couples because if he did they would be able to pro-create. Since gays cant procreate that means God doesnt want no gay couples.
Simple enough?
Posted By: hhhh (Guest) on December 04, 2008 at 10:07 PM"
Well, if the waffle stuck to the ceiling said so, it must be true.
Posted By: Query (Guest) on December 04, 2008 at 11:48 PM
It is becoming quite clear that this website is a pro-homosexual site that has no room for other opinions. sure there is harmless banter in the comments section but not a single article written I can remember that gives an alternate opinion.
I am beginning to wonder if it is worth it anymore to bother checking out the site anymore - the themes are getting redundant. Here is a list of the next 6 articles
1> Obama is the most awesome man in history.
2> Homosexuals are the most awesome people in history
3> Gay marriage is the most awesome event in history
4> Liberals/Democrats are the most awesome living beings in history.
5> Gay adoption is the most incredible event in the history of the universe
6> Alternate opinions not required because liberal/left-wing opinions are the only one's worth publishing because they are the most awesome opinions in the history of mankind.
And I'm sure all the liberal/left-wing commenters will be happy if those of alternate views don't bother replying anymore because it just takes up space better used for them.
I also wonder out loud if there are other sites that are mature enough to allow opinions that differ from their own awesomeness.
Posted By: Mikel (Registered) on December 05, 2008 at 12:40 AM
Yeah, I was never abused by anyone as a child. If anything I had an idealistic childhood, no different from anyone in my neighborhood. I had an awesome group of friends that I grew up with. Even though most of them moved away before I went to middle school, I still stay in touch with them and we talk about "the golden days" of the late 80s and early 90s like we're seventy years old haha.
I'm the only one of the group to turn out gay, so I certainly didn't have any influence upon anyone. I remember when I told them I was gay and one of the first things I wanted to knew was if they knew and basically all of them said the were surprised, but that if they really thought about that they could tell looking back, and that I always seemed a little bit different.
What's funny is that they probably knew before I did, because I wasn't sure about it until I was about 18 1/2 and I had no experience sexually. Looking back it is kind of silly, given that I had no physical attraction to girls whatsoever (I remember I used to tell myself that I just respected them too much to ever have sex with a girl LOL). I always just brushed off my strong feelings for guys as being a teenager and figured all teenagers have those feelings, but they just never went away.
So I guess I just can't understand when people tell me that something "turned me" gay or that I did something wrong or had some kind of unethical thought which has resulted in me deserving less rights then the next average Joe. This is just how it's always been for me, it's my reality, whether I like it or not.
I'm not a very religious person myself and I have nothing but respect for people that are, but if you think that people primarily have sex for pro-creation then I think you are kidding yourself. And just because someone can't procreate doesn't mean they aren't capable of putting together a healthy, loving family. I put a lot more weight in that then anything.
Anyways I'm sure nobody wanted to read my life story, but I will hit submit comment anyway and go relax haha. Thanks.
Posted By: Robbie (Guest) on December 05, 2008 at 12:45 AM
Also, I forgot to add, thanks to commenter Robbie for sharing his story.
Posted By: Manbearpig (Guest) on December 05, 2008 at 01:55 AM
I enjoyed reading your story very much Robbie.
To all those people who keep saying that homosexuality is the result of a childhood trauma do some research. People have actually conducted studies on this.
At least have a look at what is happening in REALITY. Just because your own logic and prejudices lead you think what you think should be true doesn't make it so.
Almost everything that has been said by the anti-gay posters on this article have been shown to be false by any scientific studies done in that area.
I invite you to actually look at the facts before making up your mind. Is that too much to ask?
Posted By: Rich (Guest) on December 05, 2008 at 06:49 AM
According to hhhh's argument, adoption is a concept that shouldn't exist anyway, as if you can't reproduce, then God doesn't want you to have kids. Take that, barren heterosexuals!
What a complete tool.
Posted By: Ian (Guest) on December 05, 2008 at 07:16 AM
translation of Mikals post:
WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
Posted By: mike (Guest) on December 05, 2008 at 09:12 AM
Mike: "pro-homosexual"? Really? How about "pro-human rights"? That's what we're talking about here, the fact that all humans should have the same rights.
By all means, keep posting. That way we know exactly where you bigoted fools are and what hate you're spewing, so we can keep combating it with reason and human decency.
It's one thing to disagree on things like "well, I think this economic policy is better" or "I prefer this type of show over this type of show"... but when you come in and say "I think this group of people should be treated like lesser human beings because of the way they've been born, even though they are not harmful in any way" well you're going to have to accept the fact that you will be ridiculed for being an idiot.
Posted By: Scott B (Guest) on December 05, 2008 at 09:27 AM
"If you wanted a normal life you should simply turn straight. Being gay is an alternative lifestyle. It can be corrected and cured.
That said, God didnt intend kids to be raised by gay couples because if he did they would be able to pro-create. Since gays cant procreate that means God doesnt want no gay couples."
Okay, Quadruple H. First off, you might want to acquire a stronger mastery of the English language. You used a double negative in that second to last sentence, effectively saying the OPPOSITE of what you were meaning.
Second, correct your cranial-rectal inversion.
Third, Once you've corrected your cranial-rectal inversion, do a little bit of soul searching. Ask yourself, (assuming your straight), "Why am I attracted to X?" X of course being the variable for what your attracted to, and be a bit more specific. Do you find blondes more attractive than brunettes? Asian women moreso than Caucasians? Larger breasts vs. Smaller breasts? Shaplier women or skinnier women? Figure out what you find most attractive and then try to figure out why.
Sometimes the answer is, You just do. No reason. That is what you prefer. Why do some people like Chocolate better than Vanilla? They just do.
Now put yourself in a homosexuals shoes. Sometimes they are attracted to someone of the same sex "Just because." No rhyme or reason. No underlying psychological trauma or problems. What if someone told you the fact that you were attracted to your particular type of woman was "wrong?" You can't help but feel the way you feel. Neither can they.
The problem with your attitude is that you would prefer that a homosexual lives a lie to fit what your paradigm of society should be. Man and Woman. That living a lie is better than them being honest with themselves.
Also, who the hell are you to speak for God? To speak for his intentions? Again, if it because it says so in the New Testament; show me one place where Jesus talks about homosexuality at all?
Posted By: Elliot (Guest) on December 05, 2008 at 09:51 AM
Opinions are like assholes. If it doesn't look, taste, or smell like a liberal/left-wing one, its not a real asshole.
Posted By: Mikel (too lazy to log in) (Guest) on December 05, 2008 at 12:01 PM
Kain,
Not ignoring you quantity versus quality argument. I am simply pointing-out that your argument hinges on discrimination in that you arbitrarily assert that three people cannot have the same quality of relationship as two. Which is similar to saying that same sex cannot have the same quality of relationship as traditional marriage.
Posted By: AdmChesterMynutz (Guest) on December 05, 2008 at 12:31 PM
If the black rights movement was delayed 40 years until this day then there would be people on this website saying how absurd it would be that blacks are treated the same as whites.
Now we look at that today and we thing it's utter stupidity that blacks would be treated different. It's the same with the homosexual rights. The day will come when people will look back and say. "Wtf was that all about?"
And honestly I'm getting tired of people saying stuff like "oh the bible said teh gayz are evil!!!!"
Well the way I see it, if you are gonna believe anything in that book of fairytales then YOU are the one that should be discriminated against. But that's an arguement for another time.
Posted By: Guest#6698 (Guest) on December 10, 2008 at 10:58 AM