American Atheists Wish You Reason’s Greetings
Posted by Enrique on 12.11.2008
Happy holidays
It's the most wonderful time of the year. Sleigh bells are ringing, the halls are decked, and America embarks on one of its most cherished holiday traditions – fighting over religious displays in the public square. Whether you celebrate Christmas, Hanukkah, or Festivus, almost everyone can agree on one thing – those nasty atheists should just shut the hell up and keep their immoral beliefs to themselves.
But they're a persistent bunch, those atheists. Any time some government building displays a harmless nativity scene, here come those shifty atheists whining about "separation of church and state." In a shocking turn of events, the godless have actually had some success in Washington state this year.
The story so far…
Blasphemy
You may be familiar with the Freedom From Religion Foundation, based in Madison, Wisconsin. According to FFRF's web site, its purpose is "to promote the constitutional principle of separation of state and church, and to educate the public on matters relating to nontheism." And what better time to educate the public than the holiday season?
With that in mind, the FFRF requested to install an anti-religion placard (pictured above) alongside a nativity scene in the capitol building in Olympia, Washington. Apparently Olympia has had trouble with these holiday displays recently – in 2006, a menorah was installed at the capitol, which begat a nativity scene the following year, which begat this new atheist sign. The atheists say they just want equal time:
"We can't solve the world's problems by getting rid of religion, but it would go a long way," said Dan Barker, co-president of the Freedom from Religion Foundation…
A depiction of the birth of Jesus, the central figure of Christianity, also was installed Monday just a few feet from the foundation's sign. And workers set up a 30-foot noble fir tree that will be decorated and lit in a public ceremony Friday.
"Those other displays might lead some to think that Washington is a Christian institution, Barker said. "Us being here underscores this is not a Christian state. It's a secular state, where Christians are welcome."
Of course, reasonable people can disagree with FFRF's mission and worldview, but so can unreasonable people. The atheist sign and nativity scene were installed at the capitol on Monday, December 1st. By Friday, the atheist sign had been stolen. As FFRF's Annie Laurie Gaylor observed, "I guess they don't follow their own commandments." OH, SNAP! Thankfully, the sign was recovered later that same day.
Not to be outdone, the defenders of faith staged a protest of the atheist sign this past Monday. Although the position of FFRF is that Washington is "a secular state, where Christians are welcome," some Christians say the feeling isn't mutual:
"The No. 1 thing is, we want the state of Washington and the governor to represent everyone in the state," said the Rev. Kenneth Hutcherson, the pastor of Antioch Bible Church in Redmond. "But just because you must represent everyone in the state doesn't mean that you put up with intolerance from the people that you represent."
Ahh, the irony – it works on many levels, no? Methinks when Rev. Hutcherson says he wants the governor to represent everyone in the state, he actually means to add "except non-Christians." Otherwise, why protest?
Another question – what's so threatening about what the sign says? Even if Rev. Hutcherson doesn't believe that his own religion "enslaves minds," he would have to agree that some other religions do. That's the trouble with religion – the whole thing is completely subjective, and God never bothers to clarify His intentions (or even verify His existence). In innumerable cases, religion makes people believe ridiculous things. Sometimes these ridiculous things are relatively harmless, like the Catholic ban on eating meat on certain Fridays. Other times, these ridiculous things are insidious, like honor killings, suicide bombings, and genital mutilation of children. All things considered, the charge that religion enslaves minds is well substantiated.
All the same, when atheists pull a stunt like this, some commentators offer criticisms along the lines of "Well, that's no way to win people over – atheists shouldn't resort to such confrontational tactics if they want to influence people." Even some atheists and atheist-sympathizers use this line of reasoning, but it's utter hogwash – there's simply no non-confrontational tactic available to atheists in a country where more people believe in angels than in Darwinian natural selection.
Pray tell, what's a classy atheist supposed to do? Religious believers are completely opposed to the mere expression of the atheist viewpoint. Atheists understand they aren't going to "win over" the devout with a sign that says religion enslaves minds – but it might at least send the message to people on the fence that it's okay to reject faith. And that must be exactly why believers are threatened by anyone who questions the existence of God.
Regardless of anyone's personal religious belief (or lack thereof), the government has no business endorsing one confessional viewpoint over another. The easiest way to resolve disputes over religion in the public square is to keep religion a private matter. Nativity dioramas are perfectly appropriate for a church or a private individual's property. They do not belong in a government building. After all, if God is everywhere, He shouldn't be troubled by a dearth of religious iconography in the public domain. And if He was, I'm sure He'd say something.
Posted By: Guest#5734 (Guest) on December 11, 2008 at 12:10 AM
I despise Enrique, but he's right on this one. you don't win support for a cause by pissing off 85% of the country.
Posted By: THIS^^^^^^^^^^^^ (Guest) on December 11, 2008 at 12:21 AM
I'm a Christian, and I agree entirely with the last paragraph of the article. The atheist foundation deliberately placed the sign there to express their views - and is then shocked by the fact that the sign went missing, in a country that is largely religious. Perhaps removing/vandalizing it was not the correct action, but I can understand the desire to want to do something like that. However, this is a free country, and people should be able to express their views without reprisal (on paper, anyway).
Posted By: Nick (Guest) on December 11, 2008 at 01:20 AM
I don't see why atheists can't just leave everyone alone at Christmas. It's the second most important Christian holiday of the year. Nobody is forcing them to celebrate it, they just have to put up with seeing nativity scenes and hearing Christmas songs. This issue just seems like a way for them to insult Christians while hiding behind their rights.
Posted By: Homie (Guest) on December 11, 2008 at 01:21 AM
As an atheist, I will throw my two cents in. I have never, nor will I ever, bother anyone at Christmas, or any other religious holiday for that matter. I do not flaunt my beliefs (or lack thereof, if you choose to look at it that way). I do not lecture people on why I believe what I believe, or why I think that their beliefs are inaccurate. I do not congregate with other atheists so that we can all denounce organized religions.
And I do celebrate Christmas, with my family, my wife, and my children. I have always looked upon Christmas as an opportunity to spend time with loved ones. We sing along to Christmas songs. I have never pushed my beliefs on my children, and I will not push Christianity or Catholicism or any other religion on them. The beauty of this country is that we are all free to choose. If my children choose to believe in a supreme being, then I will be fine with that, and if they choose not to, I will be fine with that as well. If they choose to go to church and worship, they will be free to do so.
I also am not offended by Christians or anyone else. I have friends who believe and worship. I have family members who believe and worship. The only times that I have ever been unhappy with people of religion are the times when those people knock on my door and attempt to bring me around to their way of thinking. I do not push my beliefs on others- please offer me the same respect.
With all that said, I agree with Enrique, and most others, that church and state should be separated. I am not bothered by nativity scenes, nor carolers. As nick stated, people should feel free to express their opinions without reprisal. I have no plans to resort to violence with the next Jehovah's Witness that interrupts my dinner, and again, I would expect the same respect.
Posted By: bigpapa (Registered) on December 11, 2008 at 02:37 AM
Methinks that the whole issue is ridiculous. Here in Australia we don't seem to have the same culture war around Christmas time.
It strikes me as a bit intolerant and militant of the atheists to try to spoil things by putting their sign so close to the display. That seems to be deliberately provocative.
Of course, atheists should be welcome in Washington alongside Christians, Buddhists, Hindus, agnostics and others. But it strikes me as a bit much to place that sign there. I don't have the same issue with the bus sign
Posted By: Foye (Guest) on December 11, 2008 at 02:43 AM
Christans defending the sancity of Christmas always makes me laugh. The iconography surrounding Christmas now has only a marginal connection with the bible story. Instead it's a mish-mash of various religions, middle European pagan and folk rituals, marketing campaigns from the Coca Cola corporation all overlaid with a good dose of consumerism. Good grief, the chances are its not even celebrated at right time of year - there is no serious historical analysis which suggests that the 25th Dec is the actual birth date of Christ.
Posted By: phil (Guest) on December 11, 2008 at 02:50 AM
If a nativity scene is ok in a federal building why isn't the atheist plaque? Why do atheists just have to deal with the nativity scene? If they have deal with the nativity scene Christians should have to deal with the plaque. It seems fair.
Posted By: Justin (Guest) on December 11, 2008 at 03:37 AM
Another pretentious, self-important waste of time from Enrique. I skim his work once in a while and this has done nothing to differentiate itself from the rest of his Emo ramblings. I do not believe in God, nor you.
Posted By: Andy (Guest) on December 11, 2008 at 06:41 AM
Go atheists!!!
I've heard far worse from countless religious leaders, and I've been listening to it all year for decades. As we all know, all atheists are evil unworthy hellbound sinners who DESERVE to rot in hell for all eternity. Atheists have no morals. And then there is always the catholic favourite; "Homosexuality is an evil moral disorder"
So maybe they could have tamed the language down a bit and gone with;
"Christianity is an evil moral disorder. All Christians will go to hell".
That shouldn't offend anyone (loose canon)
Posted By: TIm (Guest) on December 11, 2008 at 07:09 AM
"I don't see why atheists can't just leave everyone alone at Christmas. It's the second most important Christian holiday of the year. Nobody is forcing them to celebrate it, they just have to put up with seeing nativity scenes and hearing Christmas songs. This issue just seems like a way for them to insult Christians while hiding behind their rights.
Posted By: Homie (Guest) on December 11, 2008 at 01:21 AM"
Aye, aye. God forbid that the good ol' Christians would have to "put up" with anything not obligatory.
Posted By: Marg (Guest) on December 11, 2008 at 07:44 AM
Whoa, three articles in a row by Enrique that I agree with (war on drugs, gay adoption, this one).
I think a better sign would have wished people well from the atheists during this season. Atheists are already one of the least trusted groups in America and posting a sign that seems mean-spirited isn't doing us any favors.
Posted By: Caleb (Guest) on December 11, 2008 at 08:13 AM
As an atheist, I try to be understanding of peoples' views and I don't jump on anyone for their beliefs, unless they start using their religion to say gays shouldn't be allowed to get married or stupid shit like that.
Christmas is a time when we're supposed to feel a little closer to one another, and whining about religion at this time makes atheists come across as real Debbie Downers. They're almost as annoying as the people who get pissed when you say "Happy Holidays" intead of "Merry Christmas" because one phrase supposedly makes you out to be a godless heathen while the other makes you out to be a good Christian. Either phrase is fine by me.
It's the Christmas season, atheists. Give it a rest for now.
Posted By: Zingy (Guest) on December 11, 2008 at 08:26 AM
Acts like this just reinforce the silly argument that atheists must have faith in their beliefs just as theists have faith in their god. Dogmatic belief in atheism is no better or worse than dogmatic belief in god, buddah, allah etc.
Bah
Posted By: mstrong73 (Registered) on December 11, 2008 at 09:01 AM
I think why atheists get so mad and confrontational like this is that there's never a time when the religious deem it appropriate for an atheist to express their views.
I'm an atheist myself, and I don't take any offense to Christmas or anything like that. Truthfully, I could care less if religious whatever it hung up in a state building. I don't think anyone is believing in God because there's a nativity scene at the court house. It just gets rough because I've found the vast majority of Christians (not all, but most) won't listen to anything that even remotely is a counter argument to their views. Religious people tend not to be very tolerant of opposing views.
Posted By: Snabbit (Guest) on December 11, 2008 at 09:04 AM
What I want to know is why all these xtians arent up in arms about how every single part of xmas is taken from pagan religions (except for our modern notion of Sanata Claus, that was made by Coke a Cola). Jesus, according to the bible was born in the late summer, not Dec 25th, that date just coincided with huge pagan festivals in Rome and across Europe. The tree, the lights, mistletoe, pretty much everything comes either from the pagan Yule celebrations or the Roman festival of Mithras.
Everytime a xtian celebrates xmas as a religious holyday, rather than a secular holiday they are breaking the first and most important of their own god's commandments.
Any Christian who claims to believe in Jesus and the Bible should be ashamed of themselves for celebrating something that is in every way, shape and form, a PAGAN festival.
And when you do that Baby Jesus cries and his daddy sends you to hell. Thats right, straight to hell for any "christian" who helps promote this filthy, pagan festival thats stealing the souls of good, honest (but ignorant) christians away from God!
Posted By: Wooder (Guest) on December 11, 2008 at 09:50 AM
"God forbid that the good ol' Christians would have to "put up" with anything not obligatory."
If they wanted to speak their minds in a non-offensive way, then that would be fine. Instead, they put up an offensive sign directly attacking the second most sacred image in Christian iconography, claiming it is their right to do so. It's passive aggressive acts like this that piss people off and give them the belief that all atheists are jerks, which isn't the truth.
If they would have put up a sign reminding people that the Winter Solstice is a time for "good will towards men," and a time for family and friends, and basically wishing everyone a Happy Winter Solstice, or a Merry (secular) Christmas, that would be cool with me and a lot of Christians I know. When they go on the attack like this, that's not cool.
So I guess I should have phrased myself differently. Rather than "putting up with" nativity scenes, they should simply "restrain themselves from attacking" them.
Keep in mind, I'm only discussing the crazy Atheists. I find Atheism, like Christianity, is like PETA. 99% of people in PETA are calm people who hold their beliefs and refrain from shoving them down people's throats. However, there is the 1% that feels like they need to go on the attack against other groups in order to defend their own beliefs. That's who I'm speaking out against.
Posted By: Homie (Guest) on December 11, 2008 at 10:56 AM
Santa Claus wasn't created by Coca-Cola. There was Santa before there was Coke.
There also is no God or Jesus or angels or Heaven or Hell and Christmas is barely about Jesus anyway, but I don't care because Christmas is about giving gifts to your friends and family and being nice to people for a change.
I don't really have a problem with Christianity. Christians however...
Posted By: JTX (Guest) on December 11, 2008 at 11:31 AM
I like to think of the federal holiday of Christmas as being secular, and the only part of Jesus it has to do with is that "Christ" is the first part of the word, and nothing more. After all, when is the last time Santa Claus reminded anyone that he was giving presents as a celebration of Christ's birth? I don't think I saw that at Toys R Us, or on the latest Coca Cola commercial. And I think American society, regardless of their religious beliefs, enforces that idea of secularism with the way we treat the holiday season. Heck, so many Christmas carols are religious in nature, but how many are actually thinking about those words and what they mean? Most people are probably thinking about how warm and fuzzy the classic songs make them feel.
I believe the Supreme Court has already ruled that a Christmas tree is not a religious symbol, and I don't think it is. Everyone should know it's a pagan tradition that some Christians adopted. But when you start putting up Nativity scenes and menorahs and stuff like that, once you allow one on a state property, you've got to allow them all if they request it, and I think that includes festivus and atheists. You can't discriminate against anyone's religious beliefs when it comes to free speech, no matter how ridiculous they may seem. Jedi's may not have tax exempt status, but that doesn't mean you can't tell someone they're not allowed to believe in the Force, but Christian's believing in God is okay, or Tom Cruise and Friends believing in a religion a science fiction writer made up is okay.
And I'm so sick of this Happy Holidays vs. Merry Christmas shit that Bill O'Reilly and others are trying to push. I live in a pretty white neighborhood, but I have Indian neighbors on one side of my house who don't celebrate Christmas secularly or religiously (though their adult kids who have moved out do celebrate it secularly). I'm not going to wish them Merry Christmas, I'm going to wish them Happy Holidays, especially because I can't recall what Hindu celebration takes place around this time of year. While I don't think they'd find "Merry Christmas" insulting, it just isn't appropriate. On the other side of my house, I have a Muslim older woman who lives there. I'm not going to wish her Merry Christmas because she doesn't celebrate it either. If you know someone doesn't celebrate Christmas, Happy Holidays is just fine and appropriate. It doesn't matter if Christmas is the federal holiday. Just because its a federal holiday doesn't mean everyone celebrates it.
Posted By: Manbearpig (Guest) on December 11, 2008 at 11:52 AM
If it was a Menorah instead of a Nativity scene, and that same exact sign went up (which by the way, is applicable to more religions than just Christianity), would there be this kind of uproar? Probably not.
The sign definitely could have been phrased less hostilely, and it should have been worded different because the things/ideas/concepts it names primarily are primarily found in the Torah/Bible/Koran.
There is another bus ad that says something like "Just be good for goodness sake" and something like that could have gotten across their point without attacking the specifics of heaven/hell/angels/etc.
Posted By: Sammy (Guest) on December 11, 2008 at 12:04 PM
This is a good sign of a declining civilization. Low Western birth rates, decline in the importance of and sometimes hatred of the traditional religion, etc. Western Civilization is dying, so it's natural that these things are beginning to happen even in the US.
Posted By: Anonymous (Guest) on December 11, 2008 at 12:08 PM
If everyone lived by Carlin revised list of 3 commandments, everything would be fine.
1) Thou shalt be honest and faithful to the provider of thy nookie.
2) Thou shalt try really hard not to kill anyone unless they pray to a different invisible man than you do.
3) Thou shalt keep thy religion to thyself.
Posted By: Guest#9885 (Guest) on December 11, 2008 at 12:26 PM
"But when you start putting up Nativity scenes and menorahs and stuff like that, once you allow one on a state property, you've got to allow them all if they request it, and I think that includes festivus and atheists."
I agree 100%. Every faith should be able to represent themselves if they so desire. The problem arises when one group becomes insulted that another group doesn't share their beliefs and starts slinging mud. There are people from every faith that do this.
If people were more accepting that other people might believe other things, the world would be a better place.
To quote Krusty the Clown:
"Have a Merry Christmas, a Happy Chanukah, a Krazy Kwanzaa, a Tip-Top Tet, and a solemn and meaningful Ramadan."
Posted By: Homie (Guest) on December 11, 2008 at 01:06 PM
This is a good sign of a declining civilization. Low Western birth rates, decline in the importance of and sometimes hatred of the traditional religion, etc. Western Civilization is dying, so it's natural that these things are beginning to happen even in the US.
Posted By: Anonymous (Guest) on December 11, 2008 at 12:08 PM
============================
Right, Anonymous, because we really need religion to keep "Western Civilization" alive. We'll never be able to act like rational, compassionate human beings without praying to one of many invisible men in the sky. It's not like religion has ever caused any gigantic wars or spread any hatred or caused innocents to die.
God bless Western Civilization, Kevin Federline, the paparazzi, Lindsay Lohan, forcing beliefs on others, destroying irreplaceable natural resources, and materiality. Amen.
Posted By: The Big Blue Machine (Guest) on December 11, 2008 at 01:07 PM
Big Blue Machine, if the traditional religious belief of Western Civilization was atheism and all of a sudden people rejected the old way and became theists and talked about how evil and wrong the beliefs of their grandparents were, it would be the same story. You missed the entire point. Religion gave our civilization a reason to reproduce and atheistic societies have lower birthrates than religious ones. It's all about demographics man. And to prove that I'm not just anti-atheist or whatever, I will admit that Christianity played a big role in the downfall of Rome. Chill out dude, smoke more. I don't think we should attack each other based on religious beliefs.
Posted By: Anonymous (Guest) on December 11, 2008 at 01:35 PM
I grew up in a very religious Christian home. As a result, I turned to Atheism around age 12. I'd completely rejected the idea of God because of the way God had been presented to me.
And I still feel the same way, but I don't presume to force this on anyone else. I recently started calling myself "agnostic" even though it's not an accurate representation of what I believe. Agnostics, though, are generally more tolerant of religion and followers of religion. If there's one thing the world needs more of, it's tolerance of other people's beliefs (so long as they aren't harmful to other people).
So while everyone is bitching about those "NASTY ATHEISTS" and their evil sign, why not do what you're supposed to do, turn the other cheek and wish them a good holiday season? Why is it so hard for either party here to take the high road? Atheists are coming across as bitter and Christians are coming across as "only our opinion matters", when really we all just need to be more accepting of our differences.
Posted By: luna (Registered) on December 11, 2008 at 01:40 PM
Gasp, an article from Enrique I agree with. Shocked.
Posted By: CoE (Guest) on December 11, 2008 at 01:40 PM
most people have low intelligence and believe whatever they were told as a child. Christianity makes absolutely no sense as a religion, if people believe in it, its really not worth trying to talk them out of it.
Posted By: kevnb (Guest) on December 11, 2008 at 01:43 PM
"those nasty atheists should just shut the hell up and keep their immoral beliefs to themselves."
I believe its immoral to think that everyone went to hell until some jewish people killed some guy named Jesus. I think its immoral to tell people how they should or shouldn't live their lives, but ironic how Christians don't even follow their own religion. I think its immoral to take over other peoples land and force your own religion on them (Native Americans). I think its pathetic to say Jesus saved my life, how did he do that exactly? I think its sad that people need to fear the lord in order to not steal from and kill each other. In the end some people are weak and need imaginary figures to help them through life, so Ill accept religion for what it is but I refuse to put up with this sort of attitude displayed here. religion does enslave minds and harden hearts, disagree? Just look at 9/11...
Posted By: kevnb (Guest) on December 11, 2008 at 01:55 PM
All this is just really sad. Sad because Christians have alienated people to the point where they think that faith = slavery, and sad that people are so bitter and arrogant they can't wrap thier head around the concepts of unconditional love, forgiveness, and a better way of life. Does God exist? Yes. But nowdays, you have to have an open mind to find Him. Plastic depictions of the birth of Jesus should be the least of the concerns of America right now. There is nothing in the Constitution about the seperation of church and state, so why is it such an issue? There are lots of things that should be laws that are not, is it really that offensive? We were a nation founded on Christian principles, but with the freedom to observe any religion we so choose to observe. Is it the end of the world to see plastic baby Jesus in front of a courthouse or school? Get over yourself. The real issue here is like I said earlier. Most Atheists are pissed off because the church and "christians" alienate them. They make them mourn thier lives and not celebrate them. They heap hot coals of guilt on peoples heads for the way they live thier life. Church is not God. Religion is not God. God is God, and if you actually picked up and read a Bible once in your life instead of apeing what everyone else says, you may be able to find some peace on the subject. It still might not be for you, you may still have doubts. But to sit there and stew over the concepts of faith and the representations thereof, you have to ask yourself, "What is the real reason I have so much negative feeling about this?". If the answer is that someone who claimed to be a Christain wronged you, or that you feel that "subjugating yourself" to an "invisible man" is beneath you, then I hope that you at least keep an open mind enough to let go of some of that anger and pursue the real meaning of Christmas and the Christian faith. It is not about worship, humility, servitude, or subugation. It is about a relationship that can make the quality of your life better and one that gives you hope for a better tomorrow. Merry Christmas, and Happy Holidays.
Posted By: Kimera (Guest) on December 11, 2008 at 02:25 PM
Big Blue Machine, if the traditional religious belief of Western Civilization was atheism and all of a sudden people rejected the old way and became theists and talked about how evil and wrong the beliefs of their grandparents were, it would be the same story. You missed the entire point. Religion gave our civilization a reason to reproduce and atheistic societies have lower birthrates than religious ones. It's all about demographics man. And to prove that I'm not just anti-atheist or whatever, I will admit that Christianity played a big role in the downfall of Rome. Chill out dude, smoke more. I don't think we should attack each other based on religious beliefs.
Posted By: Anonymous (Guest) on December 11, 2008 at 01:35 PM
================================
Please cite me your evidence for atheistic societies producing lower birth rates.
And even if Western birth rates are declining - GOOD. The world is over-populated as it is. The "Eastern" or whatever you want to call Non-Western societies need to reproduce less. People need to be more responsible about pro-creation in general. I'm not advocating abortions and things like China has to control the population, but if you can't properly feed one child, you really should consider the consequences of popping out 6 more kids.
Also, Kimera, try reading the First Amendment:
"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof"
That means government should not prefer one religion to another, or religion to irreligion, essentially creating the separation of church and the state.
And these so-called Christian values that our nation was founded upon can be reached other ways than by Christianity. You can reach the same conclusions without using the Bible. But those "Christian values" didn't stop us from having slavery and denying civil rights to minorities such as women, gays, and other racial and ethnic groups.
Our Founding Father Thomas Jefferson was a student of Hinduism and wanted America to be open to all religions, and wanted to avoid interjecting Christ into specific laws.
Feel free to educate yourself. Here is a brief synopsis about it: http://www.tomorrowyesterday.com/2007/07/thomas_jefferso.html
Posted By: The Big Blue Machine (Guest) on December 11, 2008 at 03:33 PM
"There is nothing in the Constitution about the seperation of church and state, so why is it such an issue?"
Ummmm are you sure about that? And again if a plastic depiction of Jesus' birth is no big deal than a plaque describing another group's belief shouldn't be a big deal either.
Posted By: Justin (Guest) on December 11, 2008 at 03:44 PM
Exactly my point. Pretentiousness, anger, and self righteousness rears it's ugly head. Again I ask, how is a plastic depiction of the birth of Christ "pushing" anything on anybody? And it's not a big deal. I went to elementary school in Chicago with a largely Jewish community. I sang the dradel song with them at the holiday recital. It did not scar me for life. It did not make me hide between my bed sheets and cry. It just "educated" me, as you so lovingly aspire for me to reach that status of enlightenment. See both responses to what I had to say were negative, sarcastic, and full of contempt. It's "cool" to hate Christians. It's "cool" to think you are so educated that you have become a god in and of yourself. If you want to have such prosaic beliefs that is your right. Just focus on what is really important. The true meaning and spirit of Christmas. All im saying is that Christians should not get beat up on just because people choose to abuse the system. Most Christians are not offended by the menorah. Just the very vocal minority. As for all those other issues, I am afraid they cannot be addressed in 2800 characters.
Oh, and since you gave me such great literature, allow me to return the favor.
Feel free to educate yourself as well. Some of this may come off as equally abrasive and I do not mean it to be. I just am passionate about the subject matter. So if you take offense, I apologize.
Posted By: Kimera (Guest) on December 11, 2008 at 04:05 PM
Kimera, it is hard to descern what you're trying to get at in your response as you don't even really address what I talked about at all.
Your link is for some pay-Bible which I am not going to pay for. Regardless, I don't see what any "proper" interpretation of the Bible has to do with this - it's all interpretation in the end, and even more so, what that interpretation has to do with with this debate.
The article I linked you to has facts sourced to Jefferson himself as one possible argument that Christian values that our Founding Fathers are said to have held are not a necessity for the foundation of this country.
I wasn't attacking Christianity. I was saying that any moral values that found their way into any of our Founding documents can be reached WITHOUT Christianity.
You do know other religions all reach the same conclusion about things like the Golden Rule, right? You don't need Christ dying on a cross to teach you to treat others how you want to be treated. Confucianism had the "golden rule" pre-dating Christ's birth.
I'm not arguing that a nativity scene is pushing Christianity on people. I am saying that if we allow a Nativity scene to go up, if people petition for displays of their religious or irreligious beliefs, those need be allowed to go up too.
Posted By: The Big Blue Machine (Guest) on December 11, 2008 at 04:25 PM
"Does God exist? Yes."
Proof? You know, hard, tangible, realistic proof? There's more evidence of evolution than there is of an invisible entity in the sky. Oh, my bad, I'm sorry. I'm supposed to have faith. Faith in what exactly, I'm not sure but it'll get me through the day evidently. One of things that stands out for me is a scene in the film "End of Days" where the Father tells Jericho that God won't interfere and that a human will be able to defeat Satan. Jericho asks how and the Father says, "Have faith". Again, faith in what? He just said God's not going to do shit so what the hell are we supposed to put faith in? By the by, I'm Catholic and have no problem with the concept of the Lord. It's just an issue of flat out telling people that you know for sure beyond a shadow of a doubt that he does exist even though there's jacksquat worth of proof aside from a big ass book with a bunch of stories and directions on how to live your life written by OTHER MEN about a being that may or may not be responsible for the things that go wrong or good in your life.
Posted By: His Bubbliness (Guest) on December 11, 2008 at 04:45 PM
Amazing that a group of people get so lividly pissed off about something they don't believe in. It's like getting mad because the fucking Easter Bunny doesn't exist. Get a helmet and move on for fuck's sake....
Posted By: Chris (Guest) on December 11, 2008 at 05:47 PM
WAAAAAHHH!! The mean atheists are standing up for themselves! WAAAAHHHHHHHHHHH!
Give me a break. You know why we're getting more vocal? We're tired of being pushed around. Throughout history, one thing has remained constant - when a group that has been oppressed for a period of time finally gets the chance, they gladly become the oppressors instead. That is where Christianity is at right now - they are the oppressors, trying to force their religion on us via the law. It's time the atheists stand up and hand a little back to Christianity, so that when the Christians start crying about it we can say "yeah, this is how you've made us feel for a long time now."
I have no problem with people having religious beliefs... but when they want to force those beliefs on me, or use my tax dollars to fund their beliefs, I do have a problem. Especially since their church is the richest criminal organization in the world.
Posted By: Scott B (Guest) on December 11, 2008 at 06:15 PM
"Acts like this just reinforce the silly argument that atheists must have faith in their beliefs just as theists have faith in their god. Dogmatic belief in atheism is no better or worse than dogmatic belief in god, buddah, allah etc.
Bah "
Except for all that "science" stuff, yeah?
Posted By: Guest#2759 (Guest) on December 11, 2008 at 07:14 PM
Kimera, you seem like one of those soft-touch Christians that don't annoy me so badly. But the fact that you interpreted a curt, if not unapologetic rebuttal to your argument as an abrasive and sarcastic attack on your beliefs tells me just about everything I need to know about the kind of Christian you are.
The normal kind.
You may dress it up in politeness and fake sympathy, but seriously, just fuck off. You're not going to convert anybody; you're not going to open anybody's eyes. You're broken and we can't fix you, so just get out of our faces.
Posted By: Vallejo (Guest) on December 11, 2008 at 08:32 PM
I'm a Christian and I believe in the United States constitution, and thus it is wrong to make one person's morality the standard for everyone. I think that if you honestly believe in the constitution, even if you are Christian, you should support the idea of atheists who protest the intersection of religion and government. However, they often overstep this and go beyond defending separating church and state and depart from the word of logic.
I disagree with their message but will endlessly defend their right to say it.
Posted By: say say say (Guest) on December 11, 2008 at 09:40 PM
God bless the Atheists.
Posted By: Guest#0552 (Guest) on December 12, 2008 at 01:51 AM
"they often overstep this and go beyond defending separating church and state and depart from the word of logic."
ATHEISTS depart from logic? Which part of your space-god book talks about logic then?
Posted By: Dewey Cox (Guest) on December 12, 2008 at 02:03 AM
So it's not ok for Atheist to spread their beliefs around but its ok for Christians to come at my door saying that if I dont repent and believe in Jesus, I'm going to hell for all eternity?
Posted By: Mr. Mack (Guest) on December 12, 2008 at 02:28 AM
I keep waiting for Enrique to say, "I'm just kidding, guys. Nobody could possibly be that daft!" It just never happens.
Or maybe it does. I can never make it through three paragraphs.
I have a higher moral standing than 95% of the so-called religious people I know. Choke on something sharp, asswipe.
Posted By: JD (Guest) on December 12, 2008 at 02:44 AM
"I think a better sign would have wished people well from the atheists during this season. Atheists are already one of the least trusted groups in America and posting a sign that seems mean-spirited isn't doing us any favors."
Posted By: Caleb (Guest) on December 11, 2008 at 08:13 AM
I agree completely.Mean spirited atheists make the rest of us nonbelievers look bad.No matter how silly I think religious people are we don't need to antagonize them.Just wish them well with their holiday season.
Posted By: Ronald McFondle (Registered) on December 12, 2008 at 10:37 PM
I think non-religious folks should be far more agressive and antagonistic. Of course, I grew up in a town where the "good christian folk" would beat the holy sh*t out of anyone who didnt believe in their god.
Well not everyone, only the non-believers who didnt seem tough. Besides being complete hypocrites, these christians were utter cowards.
So I say, since christians have no problems going around infilicting god's divine will on non-believers through violence, we shold just start randonmly beating the sh*t out of christians.
maybe after theyve had some friends hospitialized for their beliefs, they'll stop acting like they have the right to force their views on others with violence.
Seriously though, if you worship a god who thinks that offering your underage virgin daughters to be gang-raped by strangers makes you the most godly man in two cities, then maybe you deserve to be beat within an inch of your life...
Posted By: Wooder (Guest) on December 13, 2008 at 10:15 AM
When can we antagonize religions?
We always hear about how we shouldn't antagonize religions and push our beliefs on others but why SHOULDN'T we antagonize religions? Should we wait until billions more are killed to satisfy some imaginary sky-man?
Posted By: Dewey Cox (Guest) on December 13, 2008 at 12:21 PM
Jesus was born in March. The reason Deceember 25 is celebrated as Christmas was so that the early church could avoid persecution as it conincided with the festival of lights.
Posted By: The Rev (Guest) on December 13, 2008 at 11:12 PM
I liked the bus sign. Please note: It is not the atheists who are destroying the world, it is the pompous, religious/superstitious, dumb dumbs. About 8 percent of scientists are religious. Think about it.
Posted By: anonymous (Guest) on December 16, 2008 at 02:07 PM
Im a Christian, and my stance on it is the government should be neutral (IE NOT IN THE BUSINESS OF CONTROLING WHAT RELIGIOUS OR NONRELIGIOUS SYMBOLS GO ON DISPLAY period)
So let the atheist have there say. Thats my Christian point of veiw. I don't agree with their ideas, but its everyones right .. . .everyones right .. . . .everyones right . . .to share their ideas in the public square. peace out.
Posted By: Chris Bell (Guest) on December 18, 2008 at 05:53 PM
"This issue just seems like a way for them to insult Christians while hiding behind their rights."
This quote shows how unbelievably stupid religion makes people.
Nobody who engages in free speech is "hiding" behind their rights; rather they are "exercising" their rights, but you believers lack the brain power to figure this out. No wonder you are so jealous of us atheists!
Magical, invisible friends are for idiots and small children only.
Period.
Posted By: Pluto Animus (Guest) on December 20, 2008 at 03:19 AM
STAY CURRENT