The Peace Talks Continue
Posted by Dave Schilling on 12.31.2008
More Israel than you can stand!
Having read a few of the comments from my last post, I thought it wise to revist my thoughts on the matter. I had a feeling people would react strongly to what I wrote, but I'm kind of surprised anyone would think I am "anti-Israel" or even "anti-American."
I am all for defending yourself when attacked. I certainly don't come from the Dennis Kucinich school of thought when it comes to foreign policy. A robust military presence is necessary for Israel to survive. My issue is with how they use it.
Everyone can agree that the goal of this is peace, because the opposite is armed conflict. No one wants war. When we fight, we fight so that we don't have to keep fighting. The U.S. and Israel are not imperialists, like so many liberals think they are. Israelis just want to be left alone. Unforutunately, what they are doing now will NOT let that happen. If you think that this action will bring about the peace they're looking for, you haven't been paying attention to this region for very long.
That's what my whole thesis was in my last article, that the military action that Israel has been undertaking recently is not part of any real "peace process." It is absolutely counter-productive to douse more gas on this fire. I don't pretend to know the answers any more than you do. I'm just pretty damn sure that blowing up a bunch of Palestinians with overwhelming force and rolling tanks into Gaza isn't the answer. It obviously hasn't been for the last 50 years.
I am no Palestinian sympathizer either. Hamas is a terrorist organization that will never be a partner for peace. Fatah is corrupt and short-sighted. Hezbollah is a tool for Syria. They are all murderers. These things are a given. The rulers of Palestine are not cute, cuddly teddy bears. I want them all tried for war crimes as soon as possible. They are inept dictators who don't care about their own people. Just because all of those things are true doesn't mean Israel is immune to criticism. Just because their leaders are fools doesn't mean I can't feel for the plight of a destitute group of people in the Territories. I am tired of making excuses for a country I think is poorly run. Israel is the most advanced nation in the Middle East and our great hope for the future in the region. That's why it's so important that we have peace. I just think it's time to stop blindly supporting them even if they've got their collective head up their ass.
Someone also mentioned land for peace deals in the comments section of the last article. I don't advocate anymore land be carved out of Israel. My ideal scenerio has always been for the illegal settlements to be torn down, Israel to return to its proper boundaries and for Jerusalem to be an international city run by the United Nations. The Palestinian Authority will never accept Jerusalem as the Israeli capital and Israel will never give up East Jerusalem to the Palestinian Authority. The only compromise is to return to the initial United Nations concept for the two-state solution: neutral Jerusalem.
Hamas clearly wants war which is why they repeatedly attacked Israel in violation of a signed treaty and then used Palestinian civilians as human shields for the known response.
If your neighbor's house is on fire, you can't say "it's not my problem" for obvious reasons. But that's exactly what Palestinians do when terrorists set up shop in their neighborhoods. As long as the rockets aren't aimed at them they see no need to act. Then when Israel responds with force these same people are morally outraged.
Dave, try saying "let's not fight back" when it's YOUR neighborhood under attack and innocent people you know are being killed. Israeli military aggression doesn't end the problem but it saves lives. They tried to have peace with people who don't want peace. This isn't about Jerusalem or borders or negotiations, it's about a huge group of militants backed by the inaction of their people wanting every Jew on earth dead. And NEVER do I hear any Muslims, Middle Eastern or American, come forward to denounce radical Islam. In this age of blogs and Facebook you can't tell me it's because the media ignores them.
Posted By: Shockmaster (Guest) on December 31, 2008 at 10:44 AM
Dave,
I will be the first to admit that I am full of piss and wind, because I amuse myself.
I would like to apologize for calling you an "illogical fuck-tard with shit for brains". It was rude and uncalled for- but slightly amusing (at least for me).
There is a problem with your logic though.
Hamas, and other belligerents such as Syria, Iran and the PLO will never agree to peace with Israel.
It is in their culture to lie to people who are considered their enemies, namely the US and the West, and even more so with the Israeli Government.
A truce or cease fire to them is a way to reconstitute and prepare for another offensive.
Hamas has become a "political group" which most major terrorist groups become if they stay around long enough and win the will of the people they represent. It's a normal cycle. They built a platform around destroying Israel and if they don't they lose power and someone else will step up and promise it, because that's what the Muslim people want (or are told to want).
Using that logic, and the historical facts that peace has never been achieved- even after peace treaties brokered by Presidents Carter, Clinton and to some degree Bush. It should be assumed that peace will simply not work.
Neither side is interested in peace.
Israel will always be threaten, or at least feel threaten. They will never allow Iran or Syria to become a nuclear power, and both countries want to be nuclear.
Simple logic dictates that peace is not possible.
In the absence of peace there must be war, and war should be fought in this circumstance. Iran and Hamas, and the other parties have already declared war on Israel and the United States.
They do every day with speeches, demonstrations and flag burnings. They hate us for so many things; if it’s not Israel then it would be something else.
I appreciate the Liberal thought of peaceful coexistence, but it's stupid and dangerous to think it's just going to happen with these people by simply asking for it.
Sometimes our enemies need to be destroyed. Sometimes it's okay to fight wars and kill the people who want to kill you and your way of life.
This is one of those cases.
We should turn those countries into ash and cinder. If you destroy the Iranian Government, Hamas and the Palestinians then there are no more disputes with them.
Then we only have to worry about what happens next. But we must deal with the problem we face now before we can worry about tomorrow's maybes.
The UN is a failure. They are only as strong as the Security Council, and have failed in Africa for thirty years- why would they be better in the middle-east?
Peace is not the solution, war is. (This was a better article- in my opinion.)
Posted By: The Spook (Guest) on December 31, 2008 at 11:00 AM
The Spook "Peace is not the solution, war is."
By what you wrote, it seems you are advocating Israel and the United States embark on a war of genocide against the Palestinians, Syria, and Iran. I mean, sure. If there are no more Palestinians, Syrians, or Iranians, then obviously, you don't have to worry about being threatened by same.
The good news is, you're not in charge of a damn thing. Because the last time I checked, folks in the world don't want to have anything to do with World War III in the nuclear age.
People like you back in the 60s said there would never be a lasting peace between Egypt and Israel. Just never going to happen. And..........now?
Try to keep your head screwed on straight and get a clue, will ya? This is going to take a while to get sorted out. Maybe even decades. But killing everybody is not the answer. Unless you're a psychopath.
Later.
Posted By: Scott Williams (Registered) on December 31, 2008 at 12:38 PM
Scott,
War is not simply about killing everyone; it's about dominating an area through force to exert political will.
War is a tool that politicians and leaders have used since the beginning of mankind.
War simply, and quite simply, finishes a conflict between two groups.
Are we not closer allies to Japan, Germany or Italy after defeating them in war?
We don't need to put people to the sword.
And to use your own example, did not Israel defeat Egypt twice before Egypt conceded that military options are ineffective and they should broker a peace?
When the US and Israel win wars, not fight to a settlement we have always benefited, including the losing countries.
Your comments fall into the line of thinking that is very dangerous, and your overly critical of a very practical option to dealing with this problem.
Destroy the regimes of our enemies, destroy their ability to fight and make them learn a new way of life.
It worked for Japan, Germany, and Italy and believe it or not in Iraq.
And it will work in the middle-east.
Posted By: The Spook (Guest) on December 31, 2008 at 02:05 PM
Spook:
Your 1st post:
"We should turn those countries into ash and cinder."
Your 2nd post:
"We don't need to put people to the sword."
If you believe we ought to nuke these bastards (or whatever), don't back off just because you're being challenged. Which one is it?
1st post? Or 2nd?
Again, just let the adults take this one please. We got it.
Later.
Posted By: Scott Williams (Registered) on December 31, 2008 at 02:46 PM
Scott,
I've served over eight years in the military with tours in Iraq and Afghanistan; believe me when I say "I got it".
You can arm chair quarterback this all day long.
I never said "nuke" anyone in either of these posts. The cinder and ash comment was for dramatic effect, and it got your attention.
I've read most of your work on this site and you're one of the first people to beg people to 'get along'.
My posts are clear, and you're talking out of your ass without any consideration to what is reality or fantasy.
Reality is that war is an acceptable alternative to compromise when compromise is not possible and survival is at stake- like with Israel.
Hell, our nation is founded on war.
I know the consequences of war, it sucks and not easy to imagine...but it's real. And it takes real 'adults' to consider the 2nd and 3rd order of effects that it brings.
If you're not willing to accept it as a possible solution then why bother considering peace. Sometimes people have to be pounded into submission.
I stand by my posts.
Keep your kid gloves at home when dealing with people who want you dead, and consider that violence is probably the only solution to this problem.
Posted By: The Spook (Guest) on December 31, 2008 at 03:02 PM
Spook:
Just because you have military service, means nothing. I have no idea when you challenge someone on something, all of a sudden they start in on how great a warrior they are. Big deal!!!
I was an officer in the Armor and Military Intelligence branches of the Army for 8 years myself. And fought in the Panama Invasion, and Operations Desert Shield and Desert Storm.
So there's that. For what its worth. Which for the purposes of this discussion, is nothing.
Anyway, you need to be careful with your posts. Cinders and Ashes to me means genocide and nukes. Just my own interpretation. But I think most would agree that is the visions that come to mind, in their minds, when they read things like that. If that's not what you mean, then don't say it.
And I'm not backing down on my stand either.
Its people with the same cavalier attitude towards war that you are promoting, that got us into the Preemptive Iraqi, no WMD, War mess to begin with. Afghanistan I could see, more or less. But Iraq? Please.
We're just not going to agree on this Spook. I trend towards diplomacy and restraint. Especially when you are in the vastly superior position. And you don't.
In you're words, "just pound them".
I get that. Believe me. I really do get that.
Its the same reason Dick Cheney's approval rating is near stinking zero.
But that's ok. It just is what it is.
I still love ya though, man. Thanks for your service. Stay safe.
And Happy New Year.
Posted By: Scott Williams (Registered) on December 31, 2008 at 03:38 PM
"The cinder and ash comment was for dramatic effect, and it got your attention."
lines like these makes me wonder why you guys give this joker the time of day. Talking to a pawn in the war machine makes him feel like his opinions are of worth. Anyone who paints a picture of Israel being innocent tolerant people are silly. Both sides want to kill each other for irrational reasons, that's why when politicians talk of peace they get yolked.
Posted By: SuperCovenMember555 (Guest) on December 31, 2008 at 03:50 PM
"Israel to return to its proper boundaries and for Jerusalem to be an international city run by the United Nations. "
The United Nations isn't capable of running the local McDonald's down the street nonetheless an actual city.
Posted By: Heartbrand (Guest) on December 31, 2008 at 04:05 PM
I just literally got back from Israel yesterday morning. Let me tell you the mood of the people in Israel. They are tired of constantly being barraged by rockets. Most knew the Cease-Fire wasn't going to work. That all it was was time for the Hamas to rearm itself, to set booby traps when the inevitable of War was going to happen again.
How many times is this going to happen. A cease-fire is agreed to, and someone breaks it. Israel is supposed to sit on its hands and do nothing? True, this will not permanently solve the issue. But what will. It takes two sides to broker a peace and clearly Hamas does not want peace. And frankly a lot of Israelis are upset with the situation and are disillusioned by it all.
Frankly, I Think any hopes of peace died years ago with Yitzhak Rabin. He was killed by a Jewish extremist, who didn't want peace.
Posted By: Elliot (Guest) on December 31, 2008 at 04:20 PM
Elliot:
"Let me tell you the mood of the people in Israel"
Let me tell you the mood of the people in the United States. I'm very sorry for your problems. But stop trying to make your problems, our problems. We have problems of our own.
An economy in the toilet. Unemployment off the charts. Multiple wars to deal with; thanks to the kill them all and let God sort them out crowd.
Can't you handle this? I mean, what is your stinking problem? Here. For God's sake. Here is another 10 billion dollars in foreign aid. Rockets, mortars, tanks, whatever you need. Now make peace with the guys right next to you, and move on.
Do we have to do every stinking thing for you and your people? I mean, WTF???
Who is going to help US for God's sake? If WE needed it? You? Please!!!
Look. Grow up, and deal with it.
We got you're back. More or less. Just keep us informed.
Later.
Posted By: Scott Williams (Registered) on December 31, 2008 at 06:08 PM
Scott,
I would have never have guessed you to be a veteran. My hat's off.
I agree we won't see eye to eye, but maybe that's a good thing.
My point is very simple. War is a political tool, and it is okay to use it when needed.
I think that Israel needs to use it, and we should back them up.
Diplomacy has failed, why keep trying.
And if I seem hawkish, it's because I am. I'm good at my job, and so are my men. I think that the enemies that we have should be eliminated before they can try and eliminate us.
When I was a college student, the first time, when I was young, I wore a pair of rose colored glasses...
We will be at war with these people, because that's what they want. When was the last time Iran offered aid to anyone? Remember during 9/11 when those savages danced in the streets?
And for you other dipshits who are offended by the "ash and cinders" comment- go fuck yourselves.
Most of the middle-east wishes it upon us. Someone still has to defend us, even when the liberal mindset seeks to blame us for other people’s actions.
Thanks for your service Scott, but if you don't value it in the scope of this conversation, than neither will I.
Happy New Year, may it be better than the last.
Posted By: The Spook (Guest) on December 31, 2008 at 08:47 PM
Spook:
Cool. We don't have to agree.
All that matters are your men. Keep them safe. If you can.
You rock. God Bless us All.
Out.
Later.
Posted By: Scott Williams (Registered) on December 31, 2008 at 09:24 PM
Hey Scott, make you a deal...
You stop bitching, I'll stop whining.
Posted By: Elliot (Guest) on January 01, 2009 at 11:11 AM
If we let these radicals in Hamas get what they want then there will be know Israel. As for Scott Williams you are without a doubt the worst writer at 411
Posted By: Ric Flair sucks (Guest) on January 01, 2009 at 04:23 PM
The Spook'War is a political tool'.
WTF?People die and you talk about war like it's a video game.The fact that you 'the spook' were so many years in the army,i think it's both dangerous and scaring.
I'm not american,so i've never understood why america is so protective to israel no matter what.In Africa in countries like congo,rwanda or zimbabue thousands(or probably millions) die and america doesn't give a shit.
All you talk is about israel's existence.Of course I want it too.But what about palestines' existence.What they face right now is genocidal.
What could you say to the father that lost his 5 daughters from israeli forces just yesterday?Can't you understand that this man,having nothing to lose,is a possible future terrorist?
Have you ever any idea why diplomacy fails?Because whatever israelis do,they know that america always gonna have their back,even if it's their fault.Israel just doesn't care for a solution,they have a state and palestine doesn't,so they have the upper hand in negotiations.They propose deals,that sound embarrassing to palestines.So when the palestines reject those proposals,the israelis put the blame on the other side.Then palestinian terrorists kill israeli civilians in non military places.Then israeli forces kill 100 x the number of their losses.
The problem is that you don't try for any serious diplomatic activities that could lead to peace,because war is your number one option.
Posted By: Aristotelis (Guest) on January 01, 2009 at 09:15 PM
the hypocrisy..if the Us adn Israel wereinterested in a two state solution they would have dealt with Fatah. They did, there were more settlements.Back of the hand. i hate to remind you but Hamas was elected bringing democracy to the Mid-east. Gaza was closed..unbelivable that Israel and the US and EUR are not considered aggressors. There is no peace without justice.
Posted By: ddkim (Guest) on January 04, 2009 at 12:25 AM
Al Franken should be sent over as a "peace" ambassador for Hamas and Isreali peace talks...then he should take a "stroll" and assess the situation there. Maybe we'd then get lucky and watch his bloody carcass get dragged through the streets...DIE FRANKEN DIE!!!
Posted By: Norm Coleman (Guest) on January 05, 2009 at 12:54 PM
STAY CURRENT