Curveballs and Sliders 07.12.07
Posted by Jared Marcus on 07.12.2007
This week in Curveballs and Sliders we celebrate the milestones of Craig Biggio and Frank Thomas and tell you whether or not each of them belongs in the Hall of Fame. Also we continue to count down the 10 greatest players from each U.S. State and a rant about the all-star selections.
LEADING OFF
Hello all and welcome to another edition of Curveballs and Sliders. Hope all of you in the U.S. enjoyed your 4th of July last week, I certainly did and that is obviously why there was no column posted.
The plan was to write another in depth column about the all-star game and review all of the actual selections, and by review I mean tear apart, but I was never able to get to it due to the holiday. Now the topic is probably a little outdated what with the all-star game having passed and all, plus there were a few other things I really wanted to get to, but before we move on I do have to throw out some brief thoughts.
As I mentioned in the last column, the fans probably did a better job of selecting the starters this year than they had done in the past decade. That left the door open for these all-star teams to be the most rewarding for actual deserving players in quite a long time. So how did the players and managers follow up the fans good work? By doing what has to be the worst job of selecting reserves I have ever seen. In most seasons, even the selections that are head scratchers at least carry with them some semblance of reasoning as to why they were picked. This year the selections just made no sense, particularly in the NL where Tony LaRussa should be banned from ever managing the squad again. Without boring you with stats and numbers, lets just take a quick glance through each league with the ludicrous and ridiculous from the selections:
The American League as a whole really wasn't that bad, the only choices I really can take issue with are Carl Crawford and Manny Ramirez. As I stated in my all-star selection column, Michael Young really doesn't deserve to make the team but may have to as the Rangers representative, and it worked out that way so I can't reallycomplai about him. Though I will say that it was criminal that Orlando Cabrera missed out. As for Manny and Crawford, they are both having fine seasons, the only reason I think its ridiculous that they are on the team is because Cabrera, Gary Sheffield and Curtis Granderson are clearly having better seasons and deserved those slots much more. I know Crawford was the lone rep for the Devil Rays, but this was the rare season where the D-Rays had multiple potential candidates. In fact James Shields deserved to make the team on his own merit and should have been the choice as D-Rays representative. Instead, inexcusably, he didn't even make the 5-man final roster spot ballot. Other than that though the AL was pretty fair.
The National League on the other hand was a complete abomination. Again, the fans did a pretty decent job with the starters, but the players did a terrible job with the backups and Tony LaRussa lost control of himself with the final reserves. For starters, the fact that only two shortstops made this team was an absolute disgrace. NL shortstops are collectively having one of the finest seasons ever for one position in one league, and they are rewarded with only two all-star slots. There was talk of them getting four or five and instead they end with two, one of whom was the least deserving out of the top five. I know J.J. Hardy is having a tremendous season, but he didn't deserve to make it over Edgar Renteria or Hanley Ramirez, and Jimmy Rollins not making the team is one of the greatest travesties in all-star history. Instead an infield slot was awarded to Freddy Sanchez who is hitting .296 with 33 R and 32 RBI. As one national columnist said "Why? Because he was last seasons batting champ?" and that seems to be the only possible reason. I know the Pirates needed a representative, but like the D-Rays above, they actually had several serious candidates this year. How Ian Snell failed to make the final spot 5 man ballot, let alone the team, is beyond my comprehension. The man has been one of the best pitchers in the league this season and clearly was never even considered. And even if there was a bias against him, what about Tom Gorzellany? No room for a pitcher from the Buccos you say Tony LaRussa, well how about Xavier Nady? Or Jason Bay? Taking Freddy Sanchez is inexcusable, makes a joke of the whole process and makes Tony LaRussa look like a complete fool. Now I know the players don't care or look into this stuff nearly as much as the fans, but can you put at least 10 minutes of effort into it? That's all it would take to see that Sanchez didn't belong ahead of at least 4 other Pirates. And sadly, we are not even close to done with my gripes. Eric Byrnes missing this game ranks right up there with Cabrera and Rollins, I am not joking when I say that there were more horrific all-star snubs this year than in the last 5 years combined. Aaron Rowand has had a great season, but Byrnes has been better in nearly every offensive category!!! And what about Adam Dunn?? And how on earth did Brian McCann make it over Bengie Molina?? As if that isn't enough, it now brings us to the pitchers. We have already discussed the joke of Ian Snell which ties right into John Maine, who also not only was passed by for the team, but somehow was also left off the 5-man final roster spot ballot as well ..IT MAKES NO SENSE!!! HOW ON EARTH DID CARLOS ZAMBRANO MAKE THAT BALLOT!!! And Roy Oswalt made the team!!! GUYS THIS ISN'T THE BIGGEST NAME GAME OR THE BEST CAREER GAME, IT'S TO REWARD THE BEST PLAYERS FROM THE FIRST HALF OF THE SEASON!!!! JEEZ!!!!!.........let me catch my breath for a second, see this is the other reason I didn't want to write a whole column about it, it makes me too mad, that may be pathetic and sad, but it does. Although here I have gone and wrote a whole column anyway. In other words its time to wrap up, other jokes include the fact that six closers made the team including Brian Fuentes and his 4+ ERA who actually lost his closer job the day he was named to the team GREAT WORK GUYS!! KEEP IT UP!!! I am sure I have missed a few other things that bothered me, like the fact that Chris Young had to make the team through the final roster spot vote even though he has been one of the three best pitchers in the league this season, but I will stop right here otherwise my head may explode. In closing I would just like to say that for all the negative reaction given to fans and media for their voices and opinions and votes on topics such as these, this year has unquestionably proven that the fans and media are much more up the task than the so-called experts, the actual players and managers in the game. Now let's just move on ..
THE TWO HOLE
Two weeks ago baseball history was made as two players reached the most prestigious magic numbers in the sport. Of course I am talking about Frank Thomas who hit his 500th career home run on June 28th and Craig Biggio who recorded his 3000th career hit later that same day. This marked the first time in baseball history that two players achieved those feats on the same day. It also marks a turning point in baseball because up until that day those numbers were always treated as automatic entries in Baseball's Hall of Fame. Of course we know that is not exactly the case anymore with 500 HR as witnessed by Mark McGwire's failure to gain election this year, but that is based largely on steroids. Biggio and Thomas are the first two players to reach those marks, with absolutely no clouds of steroid use hanging over their heads, who are still considered by many to not be "locks" for Cooperstown.
There are a lot of different schools of thoughts on these two players and whether or not they deserve enshrinement, so today I wanted to take a closer look at each of their illustrious careers. My goal today is to prove that both of these men belong in Cooperstown, though honestly I am not so sure myself that one of them does. So along the lines part of my goal will also be to convince myself on one of them, one way or the other. Let's start with the guy I am unsure about since that is going to require a lot more work, and his name is ..
CRAIG BIGGIO
First I would like to congratulate Biggio on getting his 3,000th hit and on a very, very good career, I am just not so sure it was a great career. We all know the positives about Biggio, the runs, the hit by pitches, the full seasons at Catcher, Second Base and Center Field, and of course the hits, but was Biggio really a Hall of Fame player?
The biggest knock against Biggio as a Hall of Famer is that he was very good for a long time, but never great. That all those gaudy stat totals are just the result of accumulating decent numbers over a long period of time, rather than having a ton of dominating seasons. And when you look at his stat sheet it is really hard to disagree with that.
In a 20 season MLB career, Biggio has had 10,670 at bats and amassed 3,013 hits (24th all-time), 1,826 Runs (14th all-time), 661 doubles (6th all-time) and 285 HBP (2nd all-time). In addition he has solid numbers across the board in most other offensive categories, as well as four gold glove awards at second base, but again, is that all just product of accumulation? Of course that all also depends on your own personal criteria for the Hall of Fame. It is extremely difficult to stay around for 20 years and be as productive as Biggio has been, so does that culmination of skill come together in a Hall of Fame plaque? Or is the Hall only reserved for those players that were truly great at their peak, regardless of where their numbers ultimately ended up?
Before we answer any more philosophical questions about Biggio's candidacy, let's look deeper into the numbers. I want to compare Biggio to players with similar at bats, players with similar careers and all the best second basemen to have ever played the game. Let's start with at bats:
BIGGIO VERSUS OTHER PLAYERS WITH SIMILAR AT BAT TOTALS
As I said above Biggio has had 10,670 career at bats, good enough for 13th on the all-time list. That certainly gives some credence to the thought that he is simply a player that has piled up these stats just from playing the game for so long. The 13 players on the list above him all also have 3000 hits, including the all-time hit leader Pete Rose, who is also the all-time leader in at bats, so clearly games played goes hand in hand with statistics in many cases other than Biggio's.
There are 15 players within 600 at bats of Biggio, either up or down, and there are two, Brooks Robinson and Luis Aparicio, that did not reach 3,000 hits. Biggio also has more career home runs than more than half of those 15 players, and they include Honus Wagner, Lou Brock, Paul Molitor, Brooks Robinson, Robin Yount, Cap Anson, Luis Aparicio and Tris Speaker. Of course Robinson and Aparicio are in the Hall as much for their defense as their offense, and players such as Anson, Wagner and Speaker played in a different era and were obviously far better players, but the point remains that Biggio is not far behind, if behind at all, many players with the same amount of at bats. In fact his career numbers compare favorably to Robin Yount and they are not far off from George Brett and Paul Molitor. The biggest difference being that those guys were much better at their peaks which is evidenced by the domination they have over Biggio in MVP votes and all-star games, they just didn't have the consistency at the beginning and ends of their careers that Biggio had, which I guess really is the argument either for or against him, depending on your point of view.
So all in all we really didn't learn much here, let's move on to the next section:
BIGGIO VERSUS OTHER PLAYERS WITH SIMILAR CAREERA
Baseball-reference.com has a great tool for comparing players that lists the most similar players by age and by career. Using this tool on Biggio shows something very interesting about his career. At age 23 he was most similar to J.J. Hardy. From 24-26 it was Bernie Allen, Rafael Ramirez and B.J. Surhoff. From the age of 27 through 29, his career most mirrored that of Jay Bell. And from 30-34 it was Ray Durham. You see a pattern here? While some of those guys he was equal to are good players, none of them are great and certainly none of them are even worth of sitting in on a Hall of Fame discussion, let alone getting enshrined. It wasn't until the age of 35 where Biggio was compared to a potential Hall of Famer in Alan Trammell. From 35-38, the two players who he most closely resembled were Trammell and Lou Whitaker, two very good, borderline Hall of Fame players, but still neither one is in the Hall. Finally at the age of 39, Biggio's career was closest to Joe Morgan, one of the all-time great second basemen. That whole timeline is very interesting in that it shows how Biggio was not a "Hall of Fame" type player for much of his career. He wasn't a guy that was on Hall of Fame pace for 20 years, for 15 years he was a very solid player who all of sudden emerged into Hall contention over the last 5 years just by "sticking around".
Now when you look at the similar batters for his career, Biggio is listed amongst all-time greats such as Morgan, the above mentioned Yount and Molitor, Ryne Sandberg, Cal Ripken and Roberto Alomar. Of course as we see above, that comparison only came about recently, so can staying an extra five years in the game catapult you from being a very good player to a Hall of Famer, just because you were able to accrue another 5 years worth of stats? I am not so sure. Let's move on the last portion:
BIGGIO VERSUS OTHER GREAT SECOND BASEMEN
Of course the one thing that is lost in all these comparisons is the position that Biggio played. We know he played some seasons at Catcher and one season in Center Field, but ultimately Biggio will be remembered as a second basemen as that is where he spent the majority of his career. We also know that all positions are not created equal and that what qualify as Hall of Fame stats for a second basemen would not pass the test for say a first basemen. Second basemen are traditionally not big time hitters and therefore its only fair to judge him historically against other great second basemen. For the purposes of this portion I have put Biggio into a group of the 20 greatest second basemen of all-time. This group includes all the second basemen in the Hall of Fame (Rod Carew, Eddie Collins, Bobby Doerr, Johnny Evers, Nellie Fox, Frankie Frisch, Charlie Gehringer, Billy Herman, Rogers Hornsby, Nap Lajoie, Tony Lazzeri, Bill Mazeroski, Bid McPhee, Joe Morgan, Jackie Robinson, Ryne Sandberg and Red Schoendienst), minus Frank Grant, a negro league second basemen inducted last summer who there are no available stats on, as well as two potential future Hall of Famers in Roberto Alomar and Jeff Kent.
Right off the bat we know Biggio is not an immortal and can eliminate comparisons with all the greats like Collins, Frisch, Gehringer, Hornsby, Lajoie and Robinson. We will leave Joe Morgan in just because they are ranked as having similar careers, though we know Biggio is nowhere near the player that Morgan was.
For starters, let it be known that Biggio has more at bats than any of these other second basemen. Of the players that spent the majority of their careers in the All-Star Game era, only Jeff Kent has fewer selections. Of course Kent was one of the 11 men on this list to have won an MVP award, Biggio was not. In fact of the men who played the majority of their career in the MVP era, only Bobby Doerr, Bill Mazeroski, Tony Lazzeri and Kent have fewer top five finishes than Biggio. Only Mazeroski and Doerr have fewer top 10 finishes, and only Mazeroski has fewer top 20 finishes. And we know Mazeroski is only in the Hall for his defense and World Series home run, and we also know he doesn't really deserve to be in at all. Nor do several other players on the above list including Johnny Evers and Tony Lazzeri. So we can't just compare Biggio to the weakest members of the group and see if he comes out on top, because as I have said before, two wrongs don't make a right and you can't judge Hall arguments by its weakest players.
While it may seem like I am trying to make an argument against Biggio, I really am not, just reviewing the facts as I go and calling them as I see them. So if you are not interested in all-star games or MVP's, let's look at some stats where Biggio will fair more favorably. Among this group he is the all-time leader in runs, 4th in hits, 3rd in home runs, 9th in RBI, 6th in stolen bases, 1st in doubles and 2nd in total bases. Of course you can still make the argument that that is based purely on accumulation, as I said above he also has the most at bats in the group. As far as the average categories go, he is 16th in average, ahead of only Evers, Mazeroski, Joe Morgan and Bid McPhee. He is also 12th in OBP, 10th in SLG and 13th in OPS. Not great, but far from terrible and shows he is a better player than a little less than half of the second basemen in the Hall of Fame. Of course, other than the average, this is still based on accumulation, so lets see what happens when you break down their stats based on 162 game averages.
Over the course of 162 game average, Biggio ranks 14th in hits, 6th in runs, 6th in home runs, 15th in RBI, 9th in steals and 6th in doubles. So this is actually not too far off his line for a full career or any other metric of ranking. Biggio is clearly one of the greatest run scoring second basemen of all-time as well as one of the best in steals, homers and doubles. The area where he lacks the most is RBI, but that is to be expected of a guy that hit first or second for the majority of his career. All in all when ranking the game's best second basemen, Biggio would have to come in somewhere between 10-15, right there with his contemporaries, Kent, Sandberg and Alomar, though I would think behind them. Let's take a closer look.
Here is a quick glance at the comparison between those four:
At Bats Biggio 10674, Alomar 9073, Sandberg 8385, Kent 7862
Hits Biggio 3012, Alomar 2724, Sandberg 2386, Kent 2272
Runs Biggio 1826, Alomar 1508, Sandberg 1318, Kent 1250
Home Runs Kent 355, Biggio 286, Sandberg 282, Alomar 210
RBI Kent 1421, Biggio 1154, Alomar 1134, Sandberg 1061
Stolen Bases Alomar 474, Biggio 413, Sandberg 344, Kent 94
Doubles Biggio 661, Kent 521, Alomar 504, Sandberg 403
Total Bases Biggio 4641, Alomar 4018, Kent 3950, Sandberg 3787
AVG. Alomar .300, Kent .289, Sandberg .285, Biggio .282
OBP Alomar .371, Biggio .365, Kent .356, Sandberg .344
OPS Kent .858, Alomar .814, Biggio .800, Sandberg .796
All Star Games Alomar 12, Sandberg 10, Biggio 7, Kent 5
Gold Gloves Alomar 10, Sandberg 9, Biggio 5, Kent 0
Surprisingly, Biggio stands up the best against Sandberg, but of course Sandberg, like Alomar, was a far superior defensive player to Biggio. And he compiled his numbers in over 2000 fewer at bats. Again, to anyone who has watched baseball over the past 20 years, Biggio would clearly be ranked as the worst player of the group.
IN CONCLUSION
I know this was a lot to take, and a lot to read, and I am sorry if I bored you, believe it or not this was the condensed version as I had about 20 more pages worth of things that I could have written about here. Its one of those things that the more you investigate, the more questions you need to ask. Very tricky stuff. At the end of the day I still have two strong opinions on this matter and they are contrasting in nature.
One is that Biggio is clearly one of the 10 to 15 greatest second basemen of all-time and the fact that he was successful at Catcher and Center Field just adds to his resume. His stats, whether accrued over time or not, are still very impressive and hold up well with quite a few other Hall of Famers, especially at second base. Just looking at the stats, Biggio deserves to be in the Hall of Fame.
My other line of thinking is about Biggios "feel" as a Hall of Famer. There are many different ways to evaluate who belongs in the Hall of Fame, such as analyzing numbers and stat sheets, but to me the one that always stands the truest is "did that player feel like a Hall of Famer"? and what I mean by that is just that did you know you were watching an all-time great everytime you saw him play? Did you think that this guy was destined for Cooperstown throughout his career? And the answer will Biggio is unequivocally no. He may now have stats that rival that of his peers, like Alomar, Kent and Sandberg, the difference is that anyone who saw all four of them play would say that Biggio was never the player that they other three were. Roberto Alomar felt like a Hall of Famer, always and forever. Same with Ryno. Kent came on a little later, but for the past decade everyone has considered him the top second basemen in the game. That was never true of Biggio and it is reflected in his all-star games and MVP votes over his career. He was never a dominate player, never the best at his postion and never even in the debate for the best in his league.
So this leaves us where? Is he a hall of famer or isn't he? I bet you have been battling through all that boredom above just to finally get to the payoff here and here I am, more confused than ever. All that and I still don't have a definitive answer. However, I have to give you a verdict and here it is .
VERDICT: HALL OF FAMER If I had to vote today for or against Biggio, I would vote yes, but I would do so begrudgingly. His numbers definitely lie to some extent and I would ultimately not vote for him because of the hits or the runs, but just because he was one of the best second basemen to ever play the game. Although my mind may change in the years, or months or even days ahead, but right now I would have to say yes, by the slimmest of margins.
Now onto
BATTING THIRD
THE BIG HURT
Ahhhhh, this is a much easier task and subject and one that shouldn't take nearly as much time. That is because I can't see any possible way that Frank Thomas is not a Hall of Famer and it absolutely baffles me that so many people are questioning his candidacy in the aftermath of his 500th home run. Thomas and Biggio could not be more polar opposites. Of course right on the surface is that the fact that one is a home run hitter and they other one isn't, but beyond that everything else about them is opposite as well. Thomas has "felt" like a Hall of Famer since the time he first set foot on the field back in 1990. He spent the entire decade of the 1990's battling Ken Griffey Jr. for the title of the best player in the game (yes that's right, it was those two long before anyone even considered Bonds for the role). People seem to forget that now, much as they forgot about Griffey before this season, but Thomas was not only the best at his position, not only the best player in his league, but the best player in the game for an extended period of time. And he is not just a McGwire type that blasted home runs, he is a career .300 hitter with season averages of .347, .349 and .353. The fact that Biggio has been getting so much love while Thomas so much questioning is clearly a case of what have you done for me lately. While Biggio trotted along for 15 years as a very good player, people have only appreciated him lately as he has approached these milestones. Thomas did it the Hall of Fame way, by compiling a decades worth of MVP type seasons and then trying to hang in there to reach the milestones while battling age and injury. It was only last year that Thomas really returned to his old self and entered the minds of baseball fans and writers again. So in reality you almost get punished for being soo good earlier in your career and then dropping off. Biggio was just consistent, never great, but consistent, so it seems like he was better than he was for 20 years. Whereas the Big Hurt was soo good for so many years, that when he stops approaching those typical Frank Thomas numbers, people act as if he has fallen off the face of the earth and only remember the bad times. Of course another byproduct of this, especially with the media, could be another one of their opposite traits, that Biggio is one of the nice guys and "gamers" of baseball, while Thomas has earned a reputation as a "me first" guy and at times, a less than great clubhouse influence. However, personalities aside, you cannot argue the facts and the numbers and Frank Thomas has them in boatloads. Let's take a look:
In 18 seasons and 7701 at bats, Thomas has amassed 2332 hits, 501 home runs (21st all-time), 1622 RBI (26th all-time), 1440 runs (72nd all-time), 4326 total bases (47th all-time), a .303 career average, a .422 OBP (22nd all-time), a .562 SLG (19th all-time) and an OPS of .984 (11th all-time).
Additionally he won 2 MVP awards, finished in the top 5 six times and in the top 10 nine times. According to baseball-reference.com his most similar batters by age were Hank Greenberg, Manny Ramirez and Jeff Bagwell and his most similar players by career through age 38 include Reggie Jackson, Willie McCovey, Mike Schmidt, Harmon Killebrew and Ted Williams.
Only 7 players in history have a career OPS over .975 and 500 Home Runs and they are Babe Ruth, Ted Williams, Barry Bonds, Jimmie Foxx, Mark McGwire, Mickey Mantle and Frank Thomas.
Only 6 players in history have a career AVG. over .300 and 500 Home Runs and they are Hank Aaron, Babe Ruth, Willie Mays, Jimmie Foxx, Ted Williams and Frank Thomas.
Only 7 players in history have a career OBP over .400 and 500 Home Runs and they are Babe Ruth, Ted Williams, Barry Bonds, Mickey Mantle, Jimmie Foxx, Mel Ott and Frank Thomas
And 4 only players in history have a career OPS over .975, a career avg. over .300, a career OBP over .400 and 500 Home Runs and they are Babe Ruth, Ted Williams, Jimmie Foxx and Frank Thomas. Not too shabby.
And of course, the Big Hurt isn't done yet. But if his career ended today, there is no way anyone in their right mind could make an argument against him for the Hall of Fame. And DH or not, he is one of the greatest hitters of all-time and I can say with almost 100% certainty that he did it clean, making it all the more impressive in this era. For that above all else he should be heralded and applauded and should one day take his rightful place in Cooperstown.
VERDICT: HALL OF FAMER - By a landslide!!!
That will do it for Frank Thomas, see I told you that one would be a lot less painful. Whats that? You agree? Well screw you then!!! Just kidding, I had a great time though, and this topic has gotten me eager to once again look deeper into the future of baseball milestones. Look out for that next week, now let's move on .
CLEANING UP
Last week we began to count down the greatest players from each state as well as D.C., Canada and Puerto Rico. This week we continue that with the next ten states. If you missed the intro and explanation last week, you can look it up in my column archives because I can't possibly bore the people that read it last week all over again. Here we go .
"The 10 Greatest" ..MLB Players from Georgia
10) Marquis Grissom (2251 H, 967 RBI, 1187 R, 429 SB)
09) Tim Hudson (127-65, 3.51 ERA, 1228 K)
08) Kenny Rogers (210-139, 4.17 ERA, 1861 K)
07) Moises Alou (321 HR, 1242 RBI, 1069 R, .301 AVG.)
06) Kevin Brown (211-144, 3.28 ERA, 2397 K)
05) Bill Terry (2193 H, 1078 RBI, 1120 R, .341 AVG., Hall of Fame)
04) Johnny Mize (359 HR, 1337 RBI, 1118 R, .312 AVG., Hall of Fame)
03) Frank Thomas (2328 H, 501 HR, 1622 RBI, 1439 R, .303 AVG.)
02) Jackie Robinson (1518 H, 734 RBI, 947 R, .311 AVG., Hall of Fame)
01) Ty Cobb (4189 H, 1937 RBI, 2246 R, 892 SB, .366 AVG., Hall of Fame)
10) Ron Romanick (31-29, 4.24 ERA, 189 K)
09) Bill Salkeld (232 H, 132 RBI, 111 R)
08) Mike Garman (22-27, 3.63 ERA, 213 K)
07) Ken Dayley (33-45, 3.64 ERA, 406 K)
06) Ken Schrom (51-51, 4.81 ERA, 372 K)
05) Vance Law (972 H, 442 RBI, 453 R)
04) Vern Law (162-147, 3.77 ERA, 1092 K)
03) Larry Jackson (194-183, 3.40 ERA, 1709 K)
02) Jason Schmidt (128-94, 3.94 ERA, 1750 K)
01) Harmon Killebrew (2086 H, 573 HR, 1584 RBI, 1283 R, Hall of Fame)
"The 10 Greatest" ..MLB Players from Illinois
10) Joe McGinnity (246-142, 2.66 ERA, 1058K, Hall of Fame)
09) Al Spalding (253-65, 2.14 ERA, 142 K, Hall of Fame)
08) Red Schoendienst (2449 H, 773 RBI, 1223 R, Hall of Fame)
07) Jim Thome (484 HR, 1340 RBI, 1289 R)
06) Jim Bottomley (2313 H, 1422 RBI, 1177 R, .310 AVG., Hall of Fame)
05) Red Ruffing (273-225, 3.80 ERA, 1987 K, Hall of Fame)
04) Robin Yount (3142 H, 251 HR, 1406 RBI, 1632 R, Hall of Fame)
03) Kirby Puckett (2304 H, 207 HR, 1085 RBI, 1071 R, Hall of Fame)
02) Robin Roberts (286-245, 3.41 ERA, 2357 K, Hall of Fame)
01) Rickey Henderson (3055 H, 297 HR, 1115 RBI, 2295 R, 1406 SB)
"The 10 Greatest" ..MLB Players from Indiana
10) Kenny Lofton (2362 H, 762 RBI, 1493 RBI, 619 SB)
09) Edd Roush (2376 H, 981 RBI, 1099 R, .323 AVG., Hall of Fame)
08) Tommy John (288-231, 3.69 ERA, 2245 K)
07) Don Mattingly (2153 H, 222 HR, 1099 RBI, 1007 R, .307 AVG.)
06) Amos Rusie (245-174, 3.07 ERA, 1934 K, Hall of Fame)
05) Gil Hodges (370 HR, 1274 RBI, 1105 R)
04) Max Carey (2665 H, 800 RBI, 1545 R, 738 SB, Hall of Fame)
03) Chuck Klein (2076 H, 300 HR, 1201 RBI, 1168 R, .320 AVG., Hall of Fame)
02) Sam Rice (2987 H, 1078 RBI, 1514 RBI, 351 SB, .322 AVG., Hall of Fame)
01) Mordecai "Three Finger" Brown (239-130, 2.06 ERA, 1375 K, Hall of Fame)
"The 10 Greatest" ..MLB Players from Iowa
10) Tie: Mike Boddicker (134-116, 3.80 ERA) and Kevin Tapani (143-125, 4.35 ERA)
09) Hal Trosky (228 HR, 1012 RBI, 835 R)
08) Bing Miller (1934 H, 992 RBI, 946 R, .311 AVG.)
07) Jack Coombs (158-110, 2.78 ERA, 1052 K)
06) Dave Bancroft (2004 H, 591 RBI, 1048 R, Hall of Fame)
05) Fred Clarke (2672 H, 1015 RBI, 1619 R, 506 SB, Hall of Fame)
04) Red Faber (254-213, 3.15 ERA, 1471 K)
03) Dazzy Vance (197-140, 3.24 ERA, 2045 K)
02) Cap Anson (3418 H, 2076 RBI, 1996 R, .333 AVG., Hall of Fame)
01) Bob Feller (266-162, 3.25 ERA, 2581 K, Hall of Fame)
"The 10 Greatest" ..MLB Players from Kansas
10) Tie: Bob Horner (218 HR, 695 RBI, 560 R) and Tony Clark (235 HR, 762 RBI, 591 R)
09) David Segui (684 RBI, 683 R, .291 AVG.)
08) Bill Russell (1926 H, 627 RBI, 796 R)
07) Duff Cooley (557 RBI, 847 R, 224 SB)
06) Claude Hendrix (144-116, 2.65 ERA, 1092 K)
05) Mike Torrez (185-160, 3.96 ERA, 1404 K)
04) George Grantham (712 RBI, 912 R, .302 AVG.)
03) Joe Tinker (782 RBI, 774 R, 336 SB, Hall of Fame)
02) Johnny Damon (2023 H, 806 RBI, 1229 R, 319 SB)
01) Walter Johnson (417-279, 2.17 ERA, 3509 K, Hall of Fame)
"The 10 Greatest" ..MLB Players from Kentucky
10) Mike Greenwell (726 RBI, 657 R, .303 AVG.)
09) Carl Mays (207-126, 2.92 ERA, 862 K)
08) Jay Buhner (310 HR, 965 RBI, 798 R)
07) Paul Derringer (223-212, 3.46 ERA, 1507 K)
06) Gus Bell (1823 H, 206 HR, 942 RBI, 865 R)
05) Travis Fryman (1776 H, 223 HR, 1022 RBI, 895 R)
04) Jesse Tannehill (197-116, 2.79 ERA, 940 K)
03) Earle Combs (1866 H, 1186 R, .325 AVG., Hall of Fame)
02) Jim Bunning (224-184, 3.27 ERA, 2855 K, Hall of Fame)
01) Pee Wee Reese (2170 H, 885 RBI, 1338 R, 232 SB, Hall of Fame)
"The 10 Greatest" ..MLB Players from Maine
(Note: Perhaps you have noticed that these lists have been going in alphabetical order. Now I am aware that Maine comes after Louisiana alphabetically, but I believe in ending on a high note ..well clearly that is not true to any of you have read the column before, so lets just say I don't believe in ending on an extreme low note, and that's what we have here in the state of Maine. This has to be the weakest state of them all, even Alaska had a few great players, so because of that I am going to move it up one slot and end this week with Louisiana. I know most of you don't care, this is just to save one guy the trouble of sending me an e-mail that says "you know Louisiana comes before Maine Jacka**", you know who you are Pat N. from Long Island)
10) Billy Maloney (177 RBI, 294 R, 155 SB)
09) Tom Downey (188 RBI, 256 R)
08) Bill Carrigan (235 RBI, 194 R)
07) Del Bissonette (391 RBI, 359 R)
06) Harry Lord (1024 H, 506 R, 206 SB)
05) Sid Farrar (412 RBI, 497 R)
04) Freddy Parent (1306 H, 471 RBI, 633 R, 184 SB)
03) Bill Swift (94-78, 3.95 ERA, 767 K)
02) George Gore (1612 H, 618 RBI, 1327 R, .301 AVG.)
01) Bob Stanley (115-97, 3.64 ERA, 693 K, 132 SV)
"The 10 Greatest" ..MLB Players from Louisiana
10) Rusty Staub (2716 H, 292 HR, 1466 RBI, 1189 R)
09) Will Clark (2176 H, 284 HR, 1205 RBI, 1186 R, .303 AVG.)
08) Lee Smith (71-92, 3.03 ERA, 1251 K, 478 SV)
07) Vida Blue (209-161, 3.27 ERA, 2175 K)
06) Andy Pettitte (190-110, 3.81 ERA, 1760 K)
05) Ron Guidry (170-91, 3.29 ERA, 1778 K)
04) Ted Lyons (260-230, 3.67 ERA, 1073 K, Hall of Fame)
03) Albert Belle (389 HR, 1239 RBI, 974 R, .295 AVG.)
02) Bill Dickey (1969 H, 202 HR, 1209 RBI, 930 R, .313 AVG., Hall of Fame)
01) Mel Ott (2876 H, 511 HR, 1860 RBI, 1859 R, .304 AVG., Hall of Fame)
Ok, that will do it for this week's edition, next week we will stay on the topic of milestones with a Curveballs and Sliders favorite, "The Milestone Watch", a projection of all current players who have a shot at 3000 hits and 500 Home Runs. Until then .
