The Full Court Press 8.07.08: Top Ten Players in the NBA
Posted by Brandon Crow on 08.07.2008
Who are the NBA's top ten players right now? And is Paul Pierce among them?
So last week I wrote a column that chastised Paul Pierce for his comment that he himself is the best player in the world when a reporter asked him directly if Kobe Bryant was the best player. Pierce then went on to say that his Celtic teammates, specifically the five starters, are the five best players in the world.
I've made no secret that I doubt Pierce is the best player in the world, especially when Kobe Bryant's name is mentioned in the same sentence. I certainly doubt that the Celtic starters are the five best players in the world. Just off the top of my head, I'll take Baron Davis, Kobe Bryant, Tim Duncan, Richard Jefferson and Chris Bosh over the five Celtic starters.
I'm not knocking the Celtics. They are the NBA champs and that certainly means something. I'm not even knocking Paul Pierce as a supremely talented NBA baller. I just think he's out of his mind to characterize himself as THE best player in the world. And his subsequent comment about his teammates show exactly how off the mark he is.
It's one thing to have great pride in your teammates. It's a whole other thing to be objective.
Last week, when I posted my column on the "lovable, but totally laughable Paul Pierce," I knew I would get some zingers in response. I don't mind it. But I was certainly surprised to see how many people thought I was wrong, and that Pierce was in fact the best player in the world. I can't help but wonder: am I really that far off on Pierce, or did I possibly get a bunch of Celtic fans posting comments.
Some of the responses I got regarding Pierce being the best in the world were so adamant in conviction that I emailed ten of my knowledgeable basketball friends who watch the NBA on a consistent basis and asked them to list for me who they thought were the ten best players in the NBA. Mind you, this is just in the NBA, not even the world. I wanted to see how many of them would include Pierce's name in the top ten.
These friends come from different backgrounds and live in different areas of the country. The following is a compilation of their rankings, in order:
Dee, Architect, played high school basketball, lives in Los Angeles: Kobe Bryant, LeBron James, Chris Paul, Dwight Howard, Jason Kidd, Steve Nash, Tim Duncan, Tony Parker, Dwayne Wade, Michael Redd.
Bryan, Software Quality Control Manager, played high school and college ball, lives in the Silicon Valley: Kobe Byrant, LeBron James, Tim Duncan, Steve Nash, Chris Paul, Kevin Garnett, Dwight Howard, Carmelo Anthony, Dirk Nowitski, Paul Pierce.
Chris, College Professor, never played organized ball, but a very good player, lives in Tempe, AZ: Kobe Bryant, LeBron James, Chris Paul, Gilbert Arenas, Kevin Garnett, Allen Iverson, Dwayne Wade, Amare Stoudemire, Jason Kidd, Dirk Nowtiski.
Jasmine, Sports Writer covering an NBA team, lives in NYC: Kobe Bryant, LeBron James, KG, Nash, Duncan, Amare, Chris Paul, Dirk Nowitski, Dwight Howard.
Carmen, Pediatrician, played high school and college basketball, lives in Orlando, FL: Kobe Bryant, "King" James, Chris Paul, Steve Nash, Amare, D-Wade, Iverson, Garnett, Duncan and Carmelo.
Angel, Aerospace Industry, no basketball history, just a huge fan, lives in Austin, TX: (begrudgingly) Kobe, Chris Paul, Jason Kidd, Steve Nash, Dwayne Wade, Dwight Howard, Chris Bosh, Timmy-D, Michael Redd, Baron Davis.
Jeff, high school teacher, played high school basketball, lives in College Park, MD: Kobe, LeBron, D-Wade, Chris Paul, Tayshaun Prince, Ray Allen, Carmelo Anthony, Amare Stoudemire, Tim Duncan, Tony Parker.
Rachel, Lawyer, fan of basketball her whole life, boyfriend/now fiancée played for Arizona some years ago, lives in St. Paul, MN: Kobe, KG (team loyalty), Wade, Duncan, Kidd (but he's sliding quick!), Dwight Howard, Chauncy Billups, Baron Davis, Dirk Nowitski, Michae Redd.
Quan, does something for the CIA (not at liberty to say), played high school basketball, now lives in Langley, VA: Kobe/LeBron tie, Duncan, Allen Iverson, Chris Paul, Shaquille O'Neal, Wade, KG, Carmelo, Paul Pierce.
Marcheon (woman), Mail Carrier, played high school and college basketball, lives in Atlanta, GA: Kobe Bryant, LeBron James, Tim Duncan, Chris Paul, Tony Parker, Michael Redd, Steve Nash, Amare Stoudemire, Dwayne Wade, Hedo Turkoglu.
As you can see, there are some variances, but much of this is pretty homogenous. Kobe Bryant comes out on top across the board, and LeBron is perched to take over the mantle when Kobe retires. The rest of the rankings are a little jostled, some people with peculiar likes and dislikes, but most folks agreed on Duncan, Paul, Garnett, Wade and Kidd.
Paul Pierce was named, but he only broke the top ten in two of the ten respondents' rankings. That's only 20% (in a very small poll, admittedly), and even then, the highest Pierce placed was tenth, the floor of the top ten.
I'm pretty certain that if we all conducted our own individual polls with our own knowledgeable, credible, friends, the results would come out very similarly. I've no doubt that someone, somewhere will place Pierce higher up in the top ten, but I highly doubt anyone will earnestly put him at any spot higher than number five. If they do, I just don't think they're being honest.
Now, having said that, let me quickly offer my TOP FIVE. I won't go ten long; I'll just do the top five as my way of supporting why I don't think Pierce cracks number five. Here they are:
1. Kobe Bryant (absolutely)
2. LeBron James (can't argue here)
3. Tim Duncan (older now, but still a great, fundamental player)
4. Chris Paul (endless potential)
5. Kevin Garnett (strong mentality, excellent physical skills, glad he won a ring)
To those who wrote me bashing me for going after Pierce, I say I appreciate and respect your opinions, but I seriously cannot believe you in earnest if you insist Pierce is the best player in the world, or even in the top five.
Out of curiosity though, I'd love to see who you all think are the top ten players in the NBA currently.
Anyone who has Redd or Anthony in their top 10 should be shot.
Top 5: Kobe, LBJ, Paul, Garnett and Wade - Cant seperate Wade and Duncan.
Posted By: Brad (Guest) on August 07, 2008 at 12:31 AM
Brad,
I agree with you on Carmelo Anthony. I think he's a fantastic player, has tremendous skills, and could be one of the top ten players in the NBA. I had the opportunity to watch Carmelo practice, and a few times in games up close, and I can vouch that he is gifted. The man is smooth and has a great feel for the flow of the game, and the set up on the floor. But he's just not quite there yet. I certainly would put him in the top 20. Top 15, I'd have to really consider.
As for Michael Redd, my initial reaction was that he probably doesn't belong. But then I thought about it, and though I wouldn't put him in the top 10, I would certainly include him in the top 15. He's a great player and I think too many people never think of him in high regard because he plays for a miniature market (not even small market) city/team in Milwaukee. If he had more light, like in New York, Boston, Miami, LA, even Phoenix or Toronto, I think he would creep into people's power rankings pretty quickly.
Posted By: Brandon Crow (Registered) on August 07, 2008 at 01:35 AM
1. Paul Pierce
2. Lebron James
3. Kevin Garnett
4. Tim Duncan
5. Kobe Bryant
Those of your friends who placed Michael Redd in their top 10 have lost complete credibility! Thats completely ludicrous!
P.S. Kobe is a great player, don't get me wrong. He just doesn't have what it takes to mentally/emotionally lead a team. Because of that, I just can't find it in me to place him above 5.
Paul Pierce has been the most underrated player for years. Even now that he got his ring, people still wanna hate and make up excuses...
Oh well. That's what haters do right?
Posted By: ILuvHaters (Guest) on August 07, 2008 at 01:59 AM
To ILuvHaters:
You are certainly free to feel what you feel. However, to say Kobe can't lead a team is simply wrong. He led the Lakers to the playoffs many times, even when they were a team of nobodies. Also, Kobe led the Laker to the finals this year. How can you say he can't lead a team?
Over the course of Kobe and Pierce's careers, Kobe has led his team to more accomplishments and better heights.
If you're argument is that Pierce got a ring and that makes him mentally tough enough to lead, then I can only say if/when Pierce gets three rings, then we can revisit this discussion.
I appreciate your list of top five, but seriously, Pierce as number one? Come on. Talk about losing credibility.
Posted By: Brandon Crow (Registered) on August 07, 2008 at 03:27 AM
I don't think that Paul Pierce meant that he was the most talented basketball player.
I think he means right now he and his team are the best because they have won a nba championship. I don't really think he thinks he can beat every basketball player in a 1 on 1.
Posted By: the dude (Guest) on August 07, 2008 at 06:30 AM
Paul Pierce, Kevin Garnett, Dwane Wade, Chris Paul, Dwight Howard are my starting five. Lebron can sub for Pierce.
Posted By: John J. (Guest) on August 07, 2008 at 11:05 AM
I still think that Paul Pirce is Boston’s best player and easily top 10 player in the league. Paul Pierce will go down as one of the greatest Celtic players of all-time which should vault him into the top 10 just for that reason alone. The Celtics have been so bad for so long that I think people lost sight of how good Pierce truely is as a player. He had to endure alot of tough times with guys who honestly shouldn’t have been in the league. The Celtics roster is loaded with talent; however, Pierce is still the one guy who dominated the game when needed. Incase you missed it check out game 7 against the Cavs and the NBA Finals. Sure KG and Jesus are great players but neither of them can be comepletey unstopable offensively like Pierce. Watching the Celtics this season when they needed a guy to stop the bleeding it seemed like it was Pierce who stepped up his game. The only guys who were mentioned in the top 10 lists that could replace Pierce and the Celtics still win the Finals are Kobe and LBJ.
Posted By: Shane (Guest) on August 07, 2008 at 11:37 AM
My Top Ten (in no particular order)
Kobe, LeBron, Duncan, CP3, AI, Nash, KG, D-Wade, Dirk, & Dwight Howard.
If I had to put someone #1, I'd go with Kobe.
Posted By: Bobby (Guest) on August 07, 2008 at 11:39 AM
Also, I'm not saying Kobe isn't the best player in the NBA; however, to mention that he has 3 rings to Pierce's 1 is ridiculous. I'm pretty sure Kobe had this guy, oh what was his name? I know he was pretty good, oh yeah, SHAQ. Kobe had Shaq in his prime whereas Pierce until recently had Eric Freaking Williams. That was the best the Celtics gave Pierce...Eric Williams! Shaq will go down as one of the greatest if not the greatest bigman ever. So lets get off the 3 ring circus. Head to head in the Finals other than getting his pocker picked by Kobe to end the game Pierce dominated the series.
My top 10:
1a. LBJ
1b. Kobe
3. Duncan
4. Paul
5. KG
6. Pierce
7. Howard
8. Wade (much higher when healthy)
9. Amare
10.Dirk
Posted By: Shane (Guest) on August 07, 2008 at 11:53 AM
My turn!
Kobe, Lebron, Duncan, Garnett, and Shawn Marion. Pierce is great, better than average defender, good shooter, great range, rebounder, solid passer. I just can't give him top five.
On another note: Why does everybody love Steve Nash? offensive wiz kid, but the guys idea of defense is taking a charge and hope for the best.
Posted By: Ken B. (Guest) on August 07, 2008 at 12:04 PM
Kobe, Lebron,KG, TD, Paul, Deron Williams, D Wade,Dirk, Bosh, Paul Pierce
You cant not mention Chris Paul without D Will and I cant stand the Jazz this guy has the matching stats and wins in head to head vs Paul.
A Jump shot is what seperates Kobe vs Lebron. Here is my key point to get I say to people. When your team is up by 20 who are you more afraid of Kobe or Lebron. You have to pick Kobe everytime.
Dirk was hard to pick cause his name should be irk cause he plays no D. I admit I ve not watched Redd enough to put him on this list.
Amare another gut No Defense
Thats my Top 10
Posted By: Devils Advocate (Guest) on August 07, 2008 at 12:59 PM
I would only put Paul Pierce on my top five shooting guard (or small foward), but not top 10 as the best current player. Here's mine:
1. Kobe Bryant (MVP nuff said)
2. Lebron James (Still witnessing his rise to number 1)
3. Chris Paul (the best point in the leauge right now)
4. Kevin Garnett (the best all around player right now)
5. Manu Ginobili (the best international player right now...even Carmelo can't guard him one one one)
Posted By: sevin0seven (Guest) on August 07, 2008 at 03:23 PM
@Brandon Crow:
"Pierce then went on to say that his Celtic teammates, specifically the five starters, are the five best players in the world ... I certainly doubt that the Celtic starters are the five best players in the world ... And his subsequent comment about his teammates show exactly how off the mark he is."
Why wouldn't Pierce select his teammates for his starting five? While there are better players individually at each position (CP3 > Rondo, Kobe > Ray Allen, etc.), being the better player doesn't mean squat if the chemistry for the team isn't there. Think about this: You had a who's who list of NBA superstars in past Team USAs, but we haven't won gold in years. Why is that? Because you can't expect to win anymore just by throwing a bunch of names together; this applies to world competition, but you also see other examples in previous NBA teams like the 2003-2004 Lakers (Shaq, Kobe, GP, Malone) and the Rockets of the late 90s (Barkley, Olajuwon and Drexler).
I would choose the 2007-2008 Celtics over the current Team USA in a heartbeat. Team USA won a close one against Australia earlier this week, but they were exposed for their lack of chemistry and could have easily lost that game had they been playing against superior teams such as Argentina, Greece and Spain. Team USA is the favorite right now, but I would not pencil them in as an automatic gold just yet.
"Also, Kobe led the Laker to the finals this year. How can you say he can't lead a team?"
Kobe getting the MVP and getting all the love even after getting obliterated in the Finals boggles me. Did Kobe really elevate his game to another level this year, or was he the beneficiary of good fortune when the Grizzlies donated Gasol earlier in the year? When Bynum was healthy, the Lakers looked like a number 1 seed; when Bynum went down, they looked like a number 8 seed; when Gasol came over in the trade, they regained their number 1 seed form. Kobe did not play any differently this year than he has in years past -- look at last season's failure by the Lakers and you'll notice that the major difference this post-season was, in fact, Pau Gasol. Call him soft, call him weak, but he was the reason the Lakers even made it to the Finals this year.
Posted By: Randy R (Guest) on August 07, 2008 at 04:03 PM
I'm glad to see Prince getting some love.
Posted By: The Great Capt. Smooth (Guest) on August 07, 2008 at 04:12 PM
All of you people are Bafoons !!! With a capital B. All of you clowns like a flamboyuont player (i.e. Kobe Bryant).
You know nothing about a Fundamentally sound ball player (i.e.PAUL PIERCE). I saw this guy with the basketball back in 2002 for about 5 seconds with the ball and said "who is that?" Well 6-years and 40-tapes of games later we've got a championship. I don't care what you all write or respond . . . YOU LISTEN UP !!!! I've told this story 100-times on postings I'll tell it again. I've got Kobe vs Paul Pierce in a game in 2006, check the stats. Kobe gave the Celtics 40-points and Paul Pierce gave Kobe 39-points in a Celtics winning effort without KG or Ray, plus he Juked Kobe went to the cup and dunked it on the Lakere/kobe . . . . .I guess you guys don't remembering seeing that on www.nba.com because you don't want to. As a matter of fact everytime those two match up, Kobe doesn't pee on Paul Pierce. Paul Pierce is the best player in the world right now. The Celtics won the World Championship right in front of you, what is your judgment now cloudy!! He got the MVP on your Boy Kid Bryant , don't hate.
Patrick/Played College ball and played against Len Bias in 1982, RIP
p.s. watch the editor not post this because he's a Kobe lover !!
Posted By: pmontague3000@yahoo.com (Guest) on August 07, 2008 at 04:55 PM
Randy R:
Thanks for joining the conversation. I appreciate your comments. I think they are salient and well-presented. However, I must address two points. Firstly, you said that Pierce is correct to pick his teammates as the starting five. Perhaps. But that's not really what the reporter was asking, and that's not really what Pierce said in response. Pierce said his other four Celtic starters are the five best players in the world. There's a huge difference between picking starters to run with you as a team, and ranking the top, best five players in the world.
Secondly, you tied Kobe's loss in the finals to him elevating his game as a leader. My point was simply Kobe did in fact lead his team. Whether or not he got beat in the finals, or if he elevated his game this year does not really pertain to his leadership. In fact, I would even argue that Kobe's individual game wasn't as good this year as I've seen it in other years. But he became a better team player, trusted his teammates more, and in that regard, led the Lakers to the finals.
Shane:
Yes, Kobe had Shaq. But, gee, didn't Pierce have this guy, oh, I don't know, what's his name...Kevin Garnett? Oh, and didn't Pierce have this other guy...Ray Allen? Bottom line, no superstar does it alone, but let's not say Kobe won because of Shaq and then turn around and imply that Pierce did it alone. And using rings as a factor, perhaps not the defining factor of greatness, is the norm. Ask any NBA player and they'll tell you winning the ring is one of the highest indicators of your skills and talents. Otherwise, why would KG have shouted out, on live national TV, with tears streaking down his face, "Look, Ma, I'm certified!"?
And lastly, to PMONTAGUE3000:
Congrats to you on your collegiate hoops experience. I won't argue with you on that one because I went through it too and I know how difficult it is, as well as how big an achievement it is.
And I won't try to convince you otherwise on Pierce because you certainly LOVES you some Paul Pierce...
However, if you were in college in 1982, I'm assuming you graduated from college by 1985 at the latest. If you graduated from college nearly 25 years ago, why the hell is your writing ability and basic English skills so butt-ass bad? Seriously! It's like piss poor!
And why, if you're like in your mid to late forties now, do you still "argue" like a petulant boy throwing a tantrum?
My goodness...in 1982, I was like maybe ten years old. I'd be willing to bet that there are many ten year olds whose writing and argument skills are much better and more mature than yours are now... tsk, tsk.
Posted By: Brandon Crow (Registered) on August 07, 2008 at 07:44 PM
Funny thing is I LIKE Redd, really he's a great player, just not a top tier guy you can imagine fronting a championship team.
Anthony is a different story, for the first years he was always LBJ's #2... then he got AI and has basically just become another guy on the Nuggets who's stats look really good, but they dont do anything.
I still cant seperate Wade and Duncan, lets put Pierce in there to make it really fun
Posted By: Brad (Guest) on August 07, 2008 at 09:35 PM
Touche Brandon C, here are two points right back at ya:
"There's a huge difference between picking starters to run with you as a team, and ranking the top, best five players in the world."
There really isn't, especially coming from the point of view of the NBA players themselves. As fans, we can understandably say that such and such players are the best because we are detached from the action, but when you are coming off of a championship in the fashion that the Celtics did, completely decimating the Lakers -- a team that, I might add, was the unanimous favorite going into the playoffs -- you certainly have the right to feel that you and your four running mates are the best starting five in the world. After all, that is why they call it a world championship.
"But he became a better team player, trusted his teammates more, and in that regard, led the Lakers to the finals."
I'm not sold on the idea that Kobe turned into a better team player overnight. Like I said, take Gasol out of the picture and Kobe is the same Kobe of years past. Did Kobe deserve the MVP? Maybe, but only in the sense that the team performed brilliantly after the addition of Gasol -- not so much that Kobe did anything differently himself to suddenly be catapulted into MVP discussions. Put in another way, if you were to pick one leader last year most responsible for his team's success, Kobe might barely rank in the top three, with Chris Paul and Kevin Garnett deserving stronger consideration. What makes CP3 and KG different from Kobe is that they can mesh with others, no matter if they're stars or role players. I seriously doubt that had Kobe played on the Celtics in place of Pierce last season, they would have had the right chemistry to accomplish what they did. Kobe plays second fiddle to no one, period. Not sure that's the sign of a great leader.
Posted By: Randy R (Guest) on August 08, 2008 at 12:08 AM
lemme get in on the ranking top 10 players action. this is something people love to do but it's really hard to make a definitive case for a top 10. is your criteria individual skills? or is it your cliched ability to "make your teammates better." if it's the individual skills, nobody can make a case for anybody being the best, because we haven't seen any of them competing one-on-one at the highest level. go rank your favorite and 1 ballers if that's your fancy, you know? ranking teams is the more politically correct thing to do.
that said, let me just throw everything i said previously out the window and say that kobe, duncan and lebron are my top three. im big on paul pierce, but sadly he is not on the level these three are on. and michael redd, carmelo, turkoglu and tayshaun top 10 in the world? yikes
lets rank top 10 fantasy players. i can give you straight answer for that
Posted By: Randy R (Guest) on August 08, 2008 at 12:26 AM
Brandon,
I agree completely that you need more than a superstar to win. Lets not forget Paul Pierce only had KG and Allen for one season which resulted in a ring. Kobe had Shaq for all three of his rings and hasn't won since Shaq left. If the Lakers don't trade Shaq I'm confident Kobe has 2 or 3 more rings. If you sub Pierce in for Kobe on those Lakers teams I bet you get the same results. My point is that one can't assume one player is better than anoher because of the number of championships he has accumulated. If we go by that then Horry is the best player in the league. Marino never won a SB; however, Trent Dilfer did. Does that mean Dilfer is the better player? Not even close.
Posted By: Shane (Guest) on August 08, 2008 at 09:12 AM
Brandon, I agree with you about Pierce. Having said that here is my top ten:
1. Kobe
2. James
3. Tim Duncan
4. Dirk N.
5. D. Wade
6. Tony Parker
7. Steve Nash
8. B. Davis
9. Hedo
10. Redd
I am a PhD in computational sciences, working from home, soccer mid-fielder, played amateur basketball in Turkey, NBA fan. It'd be great if you could get a statistical figure of people's top ten responses. I'd value this kind of polling more since it's to be sampled from fans who take time to read and write on the subject matter.
Thanx.
Posted By: JudasPriest (Guest) on August 08, 2008 at 10:42 AM
A somewhat interesting read from a writer who certainly doesn't like the Celtics. Best starting 5 in basketball, would mean, of the present teams, not any player of your choosing. It's also nice when you have the last word. You can always make yourself sound right.
As for Kobe, he did fine when he didn't have to be the main man. What has he done when he's tried to take over that role. Flop against Detroit. Flop against the Celts. He took a dive when the Suns came back from a 3-1 deficit. Being great in the regualar season is nice, but what does it mean when you flop when it counts. In the end comming through when it counts is all that matters.
Posted By: Phil (Guest) on August 08, 2008 at 11:53 AM
I like how those defending Peirce's title keep pointing to Shaq to dq Kobe's 3 titles. It's especially ironic given that Peirce accomplished nothing until Garnett and Allen arrived. Also fun consider the Lakers best big man was down for the finals series.
And pmontauge need not use the word fundamentals in this conversation, becuase if he does, it becoems Peirce vs Duncan, and Tim wins that one every time.
Posted By: Adam (Guest) on August 09, 2008 at 06:54 PM
Top 3:
1. Lebron James
2. Dwyane Wade
3. Chris Paul
Kobe's a top 10 player, but I'd
never rank him above Iverson. Ivo
can score just like him, but he also
gets assists and steals. Kobe's
a better one-on-one defender though.
4. Allen Iverson
5. Kobe Bryant
6. Kevin Garnett
7. Steve Nash
8. Amare Stoudemire
9. Dirk Nowitzki
10. Tim Duncan
Posted By: thesonicvision (Registered) on August 12, 2008 at 07:03 PM
