411 Sports Zone Fact or Fiction 5.07.08: Animal Cruelty, Kobe as MVP, Oscar De La Hoya and More

Posted by Ken Schmidt on 05.07.2008

The Sports Kid announces his summer FoF tournament while 411's famous Wrestling Zone veterans go head to head when Bayani Domingo and Larry Csonka duke it out in one of the final exhibition matches of Fact or Fiction.

In what could go down in the history as the best Sports Zone Fact or Fiction we have two guests from another zone going head to head in a showdown of sports knowledge. These two pride themselves in being experts in "sports entertainment" but how will they fair when the questions are on "athletic competition." This week with 100% more racing questions (no not NASCAR, ponies!).

In the red corner we have the second in command of 411mania. The King of the Wrestling Zone and most recognizable name in all of 411. I am not sure what column to plug so I will just say his most recent column, which changes daily, My Take On, where Monday Night Wars of the old WCW days are broken down. Confidence is not a problem when it comes to fact or fiction for Larry Csonka

And in the blue corner we have one of my favorite columnists in the sports zone and my favorite person to have meaningless banter with about fantasy football, Asians in baseball, and a possible porn zone for 411mania. Most recently this man gave us his take on the PWG title curse and the injury of one of my favorite Indy wrestlers, the Human Tornado, in Truth B Told. It's Bayani Domingo.


1. Horseracing was proved to be too barbaric for national exposure by the euthanizing of Eight Belles on the track following the Kentucky Derby.

Larry Csonka: FICTION: This is not only fiction, but this is bullshit propaganda from out good friends at PETA. Let's face facts here kids, no one usually cares about horse racing with the exception of two times, your betting on them or triple crown time. And the only reason people care about triple crown time is because the sports media attempts to make the "Sport of Kings" important to the common man. I'm sorry, it doesn't work like that. As for the euthanization of Eight Belles, it was sad to have to end the horse's life, but it was the right thing to do. I don't see how ending the suffering of the horse is barbaric, at all.

But I WILL tell you what was barbaric. Barbaric is beginning the euthanization process before informing the trainer and owner of the horse. Barbaric is the use of race day drugs in the United States. Race day drugs cover up problems a normal horse would be having, mask them so to speak and allows them to run with the jockey not realizing what could be wrong. Barbaric is the race day drugs causing defects in horses that get passed from generation to generation, creating frailer generations of horses, and in turn making injuries like we saw more prevalent and thusly causing more "Barbaric" euthanizations. Fuck PETA.

Bayani Domingo: FACT: Geeeez Csonka, where's all this PETA hate coming from? Not only is PETA a delicious way to my gyro together and is a delicious compliment to hummus. Although if it wasn't for that succulent lamb sandwich and that tangy tziki sauce then PETA could kiss my ass. That being said I don't know that Horseracing is "barbaric" in a sense, and I know I'll get a shit storm for this, but isn't Horseracing to a much, much lesser extent similar to dog fighting or cock fighting? I realize that the mortality rate in "animal fights" is severely high, but it's still a fairly unnatural act in the sense of how we set up those event. It's not like Horses in the wild race each other around a circular track as fast as possible after months and months of training just to get a wreath around their necks. I realize horses die every day from similar accidents, but it's not like horseracing is helping the situation that much. I think it's funny that while other people bitch about cock fighting and dog fighting as being cruel and unusual, it's not like every single horse gets to retire happy and healthy and get "put out to stud"…which by the way is EXACTLY what I'm hoping for when I retire. Just a whole stable full of young fillies just hurtin' for a "Championship squirtin'", if ya know what I mean. No? Oh, okay then, back to what I was saying I think Horseracing is outdated and it more or less is an exploitation of a very noble creature. Not unlike the working conditions here at 411. If you thought that Berman had "retired" from 411, then you'd probably be appalled to find out that he actually fractured his wrist and Csonka threw a blanket over him when he found out at the staff meeting and…well…*sniff sniff*…I'd rather not talk about it. If you have heard about all the damage that football players incur over their careers from all the hits, just imagine if Larry Johnson or Willie Parker limped onto the practice field one day and had to tell their coach they were hurt:

"Hey coach…um…looks like the Doc said I have a high ankle sprain and I'll be out a couple of weeks."
"Oh, sorry to hear that Willie…well you've been a good running back…a REAL good running back…and *single tear*…I love you Willie…it's for your own good you know".
"Whoa…what the fuck Coach…it's just a sprain. I'll be fine in... hey put away the glock Mike…put it away".
"*sniff sniff*…I love you old Yeller…"
"Old what??" *BOOM*

Scoring: This is a tough one to score here because I agree with Csonka's point but Bayani was much funnier. However, even though B entertained me for 400 words Csonka has a point about Horseracing not being barbaric but there are many flaws in the way it goes off. Race day drugs being legal? Are you kidding me? I'm not allowed to play softball for a few months because I have a gapping hole in my stomach due to surgery but hey, I can just pop six perkasets and do some meth and I'll be good to go, that is until I die when my small intestine comes falling out my gut. Also, PETA needs to back off, and I mean the association and not the bread. I watched the owner of Eight Belles cry his eyes out because like my pet or most pets in this country, these animals are part of the family. Let the guy grieve, don't blame people and demand suspensions. I do agree with the ending of whipping and race day drugs but seriously PETA, back off and let the man grieve. Point to Csonka. 1-0.


2. The recent controversy with Marvin Harrison being involved in a bar shooting will be big trouble for the Indianapolis Colts this season.

Larry Csonka: FACT: I won't get picky with wording because I hate when people do it to me, while it may not be HUGE or even BIG, I say fact because I do think that the situation will be detrimental to the Colts. Up until this incident, people have always said, "Marvin Harrison is one of those guys that never complains about money and never gets into trouble, people need to be more like him." He was the clean cut guy that people liked. But last year he had injury issues, he had the magnifying glass on him and NOW this comes out. The media is and will be in a frenzy because now they have a reason to look into his life more, and not just look into his life but dig in the dirt until they get to China. In the end shit like this always effects the team, and a drama like this could be bad news for the usually calm and collected Colts.

Bayani Domingo: FACT: Big Trouble in Little Indy? I think not Lo Pan. I am going to take this more literally than Csonka did and say that while this is going to probably be an issue that Commissioner Goodall is going to blow WAAAY out of proportion and beat this like a dead Colt I think in the end this will end up working itself out and not becoming a huge distraction for the team. So long as Harrison is cleared of actually firing or ordering the firing of any hand guns then this will probably just blow over and Harrison will figure a way to smooth things out by putting his bar or car wash up for sale or something. If anything the bigger distraction will be what to do with Harrison and how he'll fit into the team's plans now that he is going to only be the 2nd or even 3rd WR on this team even IF he's 100% healthy. My guess is that the media does dig into this for a few weeks until someone else screws up and the entire defensive backfield for the Bengals get caught in a Opium stuffed Panda smuggling scheme and the entire thing is forgotten. If Tony Dungy is nothing else he is a calming influence that will get his player's heads in the game when training camp opens.

Scoring: People don't know a lot about Marvin Harrison off the field because he is so quiet but I will tell you, I know where his bar is, I've driven past it before. It is not a place I'd want to stop in for a Red Bull or Soda. For those not living around Philly don't hear that shootings like these are fairly common place so I am sure a Philly native like Marvin can't be a stranger to these happenings. As far as what Bayani said about Goodall, I have to agree. If Pacman got a year suspension just for being involved in a shooting but is going to happen to a guy who may have actually shot at a guy. I mean, it was his gun. Unless there is some serious hypocrisy in the NFL, which wouldn't surprise me considering professional sports screams hypocrisy, Marvin is in for a bit of a scolding from the commish. Point to Bayani on this one for talking about crazy Commish and not the media. It won't be the media that suspends Harrison if needed Csonka. 1-1.


3. Oscar De La Hoya proved he has a lot left in the tank with his win over Steve Forbes this weekend.

Larry Csonka: FACT: Hell yes the man has a lot left in the tank. Oscar is in great shape and dominated the bout with Forbes. He looked strong, he looked confident and in some ways like the Oscar of old. That being said, I don't think he can beat Floyd Mayweather in their rematch. Oscar looks good, he looks ready, but the fact is that I still do not think that he can counter the speed of Mayweather and defeat him. Their last bout I scored a tie (CHECK IT) and while I am not like most and think that Oscar has NO chance, I just see Mayweather using the speed and conditioning to his advantage and will win again. But as far as what's left in the tank, people that are writing off de La Hoya are insane. He's MONEY in many ways.

Bayani Domingo: FACT: It's not what's in Oscar's "tank" I'm worried about, it's the fishnets and wigs in the "trunk" that has me scared. Now I will agree that Oscar did look dominating against Forbes but what does that really tell you? Had De La Hoya come out and finish off Forbes in the 6th or 7th round with a KO then maybe I'd be more convinced, but right now I think Oscar is in good shape, hasn't lost much off his punch, but is in no way ready to beat Mayweather in a rematch. I hate agreeing with "The Boss" on this, but he's right. While I don't think Oscar will win another belt at 35 years old he has "enough left in the tank" to still put on some damn good fights. I actually think Mayweather will beat Oscar decisively and at this point my belief is that the only reason he's coming back is for this fight and perhaps one more big pay day and of course making sure that the last thing the public sees of him is his warrior like spirit in the ring…not his whore-ior like camel toe in leggings. De La Hoya has really nothing to prove when it comes down to his legacy and I hope that after this last bout he'll realize that although he can make money and still be a very skilled fighter in the ring, he's past the point where he can dominate his division again and he's better off just taking the pay check and sinking into a, hopefully, quiet retirement. I'm hoping though that he comes out to the ring with the speakers blaring Aerosmith…"DUDE LOOKS LIKE A LADY".

Scoring: Good to see Bayani didn't take any cheap shots at De La Hoya in his response. I counted at least three. Let's face it, this fight was just a stop on De La Hoya's retirement tour that will end in a trouncing to Mayweather, unless your Csonka, than it will end in a split decision. Oscar vs. Floyd will bring in several million dollars which is what this is all about. Steve Forbes was a pawn in the future match-up between the King (Mayweather) and the Queen (De La Hoya), great I've sunk to Bayani's level. Point to Csonka here but I think you guys are putting to much into beating Steve Forbes but than again I don't claim to be a huge boxing buff. 2-1 Csonka at half time.


STANDING SWITCH


4. John Smoltz moving to the bullpen when he returns, as rumored, will help the Atlanta Braves immensely.

Bayani Domingo: FICTION: I know Smoltz has found a great deal of success in the bullpen, but if history has taught us anything it is that it is far harder to find a reliable starter than it is a decent closer. Besides not every team needs to have an elite closer to compete as there have been plenty of one year stand ins who have done admirably. It's like taking the hottest chick on the porn set and only subbing her in to take the "money shot". A total waste of talent in my opinion. Right now the Braves are saying that they are comfortable with Hudson, Glavine, Jurjens, Bennett, and a guy named Jo Jo filling out their rotation? Now granted the bullpen isn't much better off and right now Manny Acosta is not the answer, however you have to figure out a way to shore up your bullpen without taking away your "ace" from your rotation. If it wasn't for the injuries to Rafael Soriano and Mike Gonzalez this wouldn't even be a consideration as both men are capable of holding down closing duties. While my guess is ATL is hoping that they will both be back within the month and one will cease the closer job back from Smoltz I have to wonder if it's a good idea to keep having him bounce back and forth between the rotation and the bullpen. I think the Braves are better off finding a decent replacement in a trade, they have a pretty stacked minor league system in the OF area and if they are truly concerned I think it would be fairly easy to pluck a capable set-up man waiting for a closing gig from a non-contender. I still think that trade for Mark Kotsay was a bad decision in the off-season and now that Joey Devine (there once future closer) is still sporting a sub 1.00 ERA it is looking even worse. If the Braves expect for Jo Jo Reyes and Jeff Bennett to keep them in the game for 8 innings to get to Smoltz then they are seriously insane.

Larry Csonka: FICTION: I would like to say fact here, because Smoltz in the pen is tremendous. But the fact of the matter is this; a great reliever/save guy doesn't do shit for you if the starting pitching isn't good. Man I hate agreeing with DOMINO. Their starting rotation is weak, so to me this is more of a rehab assignment with benefits, because Smoltz will dominate. As for Bayani questioning Smoltz bouncing back and forth between the rotation and the bullpen, it won't bother him. Like I said, first of all it is more of a rehab assignment. Secondly, this isn't some dude like Eric Gagne who can't start, has a few good seasons as a reliever and then turns to shit. Smoltz is a guy that has won 14 or more games 10 times in his 20-year career, and also had that impressive three-year run as a reliever, with seasons of 55, 45 and 44 saves. After the three seasons of relief duty with those massive save numbers, he returned to the starting rotation and posted three seasons of 14-7, 16-9 and 14-8. He also pitched over 200 innings those years (2005-2007), something he hadn't done since 1997. The man is a beast and will be great where ever he pitches for his team.

Scoring: I am a little disappointed in you guys for not seeing the bigger picture here. Why is the team that is leading the NL East right now currently in the lead and going to be in the lead when the season ends? Bullpen. Do not forget about the pens in the equation because guys like Sosa, Schoenwise, Smith, and Heilman are going to keep the Mets out of the playoffs and guys like Romero, Gordon, Seanez, and Lidge are going to get the Phillies in. But I digress. The Braves really do have better options than moving there stud pitcher to the bullpen unless this injury is proving that Smoltzy is no longer able to throw 100 pitches a night. I am giving the point to Bayani for his good points about the stacked minor league system and there being a better way right now. Soriano really shouldn't have been the closer going into the season anyway. However, I am deducting a half a point from the entire argument because Bayani is smack talking the Braves starting rotation minus Smoltz. That rotation is still just as good as the Phillies and the Phils are going to ride Kendrick and Eaton and 90 year-old Jamie Moyer into the playoffs. The score is 2-1.5 in favor of Csonka.


5. Kobe Bryant for MVP was the right choice.

Bayani Domingo: FACT: I hate Kobe Bryant. I live in LA and I HATE Kobe Bryant. The guy is just so unlikable and considering that he hasn't led the Lakers to Jack or Shit since he got Shaq traded I have to believe that the next two years are going to make or break his future in LA. That being said the man is arguably the most talented player in the NBA right now and certainly the most talented in the West Division. If I had to throw out a number of contenders for MVP it would be Kobe, Chris Paul, Kevin Garnett, and of course LeBron. While Garnett led his team to the best record in the NBA he had a lot of help in Allen and Pierce. LeBron IS the entire offense for the Cavs but he wasn't able to get them a high enough seed to be a legitimate contender in the voting in most voter's eyes. That really leaves it to Chris Paul and Kobe and in this case I think this feels more like a "life time achievement award" for Kobe than a 2008 season MVP, I'm fully on board with giving it to him. While Chris Paul was a steady influence and grew by leaps and bounds to get his team to this elite level I think he had far more help on a day to day basis than Kobe did. Even when Bynum went down and Odom went through his funks Kobe was the engine that drove the team and finishing first out of the West as well as being the odds on favorites to come out of that division has to count for something. Then again I have a feeling that Paul will have plenty of opportunities to make a run at MVP in his future, especially in a few years if they can keep that core group together.

Larry Csonka: FICTION: I don't hate Kobe, I don't give two shits about Kobe actually. Honestly I am not a huge basketball fan, but I follow it. Kobe should have been MVP, perhaps two years ago when he posted good numbers with a less talented team than he has now. Kobe winning the award this year, to me, seems like one of those "you've been good for a lot of years and got beat out by some good people, so since you're the big name in the running, we'll let you have your turn" deals. The lifetime achievement MVP perhaps. Yes, Kobe had a great season, the Lakers are a great team, but I just don't feel that Kobe was the MVP. Form everything I have seen, I go with Chris Paul. Ever since the kid came to town he has been making a difference. In his rookie year they went from 18 wins to 38 wins. This year they surprised everyone with a 56-26 record, and all along the way Chris Paul was impressing me. 21 points a game, 11 assists a game while playing a bit over 37-minutes game. It takes a lot to get me excited about basketball, but every time I saw Chris Paul I watched. He meant way more to his team I feel, and he should have won the MVP.

Scoring: Both you guys pointed out the flaw of the NBA, unlike baseball where a second year player, Ryan Howard, can win MVP, basketball has taken into consideration the fact that hey, Kobe has been one of the greatest scorers in this generation of the NBA and he deserves one. I would have had a really tough time voting for the MVP this year because Chris Paul does seem to be so deserving. However, the Lakers are the one-seed, Kobe is the reason they are there, and that is why he deserves it this year. Point to Bayani which makes the final question be the game breaker. It's 2.5-2 Bayani.


6. The era of the Phoenix Suns has come to an end and they will not be serious contenders for a championship in 2009.

Bayani Domingo: FACT: Right now the 'Gorilla' is the 6th most talented man on that roster right now. The team is aging in important places like PG and C and I may be one of the few people who believes that in a bigger role Diaw and Barbosa will fail to live up to expectations. They have a window of maybe one more year to compete so long as Shaq has anything left and Nash can hold it together after all the bumps and bruises that have taken a toll on him over so many post seasons. I think the biggest concern isn't how the Suns will regress, but rather how the rest of the league has come up to their level. Its clear that there is a changing of the guard and the Spurs/Mavs/Suns domiance of years past is being threatened by the Lakers' resurgence, the Hornets' meteoric rise, and the Rockets and Jazz becoming viable contenders. I look at the Suns like they are the Selma Hayek of the NBA. Sure Selma is still hot and I wouldn't mind giving her an "filthy Ramirez" or a "Turkish Sno-cone", but she's just not as hot as the other younger, newer chicks out there right now. As sad as it sounds I doubt the Suns will make it to another West Conference Finals for some years because I just can't imagine them being able to keep running with the rest of the West. If I had to pick my top contenders in the West next year it all starts with the Lakers, goes to the Hornets, and sweeps through San Antonio, I don't anticipate a stop in 'Zona at all. The ironic thing is that if they were in the East they would probably be the 2nd or 3rd seed every year. Boo on divisional playoffs…BOO I say.

Larry Csonka: FACT: **SIGH** Domino has learned all to well from me. I kid, but seriously, he is dead on here. The Suns had their chances, and they have come and are likely gone. The Spurs are getting older, the Hornets, Jazz and other teams are climbing at an exponential rate in skill, experience and the tide is turning. The Suns threw away Shawn Marion in order to get Shaq, the DIESEL. They did that for one reason, to defeat the Spurs. That was what the kids like to call, "EPIC FAIL." The Spurs owned them rather easily; the Suns didn't look like a big time play off team. The Suns are reminding me of the Mavs from a few years ago. Toss up a bunch of points, fun in the regular season and then flounder in the playoffs. You missed the boat kids.

Scoring: I really expected Csonka to win this one since generally Bayani focuses more on comedy than actual fact. Also, Bayani's obsession with porn, obscure sexual positions, and hotter competitions between Latinas and Asians, which doesn't bode well in what I consider a serious competition but I think Csonka conceded defeat in this last question. Though he was right that Shaq was an "epic fail" but saying the Spurs owned them is misleading. Take into consideration that a young Amare really blew the first game and Tim Duncan hit his first three pointer of the year to force a tie, that being a miracle. If either of those miracles don't happen than the Suns win game 1 and we are looking at a much different series. Maybe not a Suns series win but this was not domination. Both guys are right though, Nash is turning it over late in the game to much showing his old age and the window has closed on Phoenix. The Spurs are just better at what Bayani would like to do with Selma Hayek and that is closing the deal. That is what separates the champions from the Phoenix Suns of the world and what separates me from Bayani (BURN). Burned or not point goes to Bayani, but I'll only give him half a point since Csonka claims to have taught him and I hate numbers that aren't rounded.


Final Score: Sure the system is flawed but I am going to fix that in an upcoming summer special. The final score this week is Bayani 3, Csonka 2 but this showdown was just an exhibition. Coming up in late May will be a tournament, 16 of 411's Sports Vets and Rookies in a tournament to crown the king of Fact or Fiction. And to improve the system that was proved flawed this week there will be 6 questions in regular format and I will score them. Than I will have a question seven prepared post-reading as a tiebreaker to fix the system, neither opponent will get to see each others answers either so no home field advantage. The win goes to Bayani this week but I expect Bayani and Csonka to be forces in the Fact or Fiction Summer Showdown Tournament (name up for change, Csonka suggested Csonka's Summer Death Tour). Tournament time is around the corner so until than Let the Debate Begin.