411mania.com: Wrestling - 411 Fact or Fiction 5.21.09: Ric Flair’s Return, Samoa Joe, AJ Styles and Christopher Daniels Status, The Bash, More

Welcome back to another week of 411 Fact or Fiction: Wrestling Edition! This week we have THREE men stepping up to the challenge as Mathew Sforcina, Andy Critchell and Kevin G. Bufton step into the 411 Arena to do battle in this week's edition of Fact or Fiction!

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Questions were sent out Monday morning.

Participants were told to expect WWE and TNA related questions.

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1. Ric Flair's return at Judgment Day was a case of "smoke and mirrors" so that fans wouldn't be pissed off with the non-finish of Batista vs. Orton.

Andy Critchell: FICTION: Here's the thing, people don't really seem to care about the feud right now so they were not going to be pissed off with the non-finish anyway. There aren't any new babyface challengers in line to take on Orton so this feud needs to be extended but the belt has switched hands too much recently so a non-finish was really the only choice here.

Kevin G. Bufton: FACT: Which isn't to say, of course, that it worked, but that's pretty much the best reason I can think of. The Chicago crowd seemed hugely pissed at the deliberate DQ finish for this match and, credit where it's due, Flair got the biggest pop of the night as he came to turn the tide against the Legacy. The problem that we have now is that there isn't a whole Hell of a lot that WWE can do with this. Wrestling logic dictates that we see Flair and Batista face off against the Legacy, but Flair seems to be committing himself to his most recent retirement and I can't see a way for them to orchestrate his return that will appease the fanbase.

Well, there is one way. Bring in Reid Flair as the newest member of the Legacy, only to have Orton and his evil elves turn on him and deliver an unspeakable beatdown. I'm talking about a Four Horsemen style ass-kicking, thus leaving the Nature Boy with no recourse but beg Vince McMahon to allow him to return to the ring – kind of like the Archie Gouldie/Bad News Allen program that Stampede ran. I could live with that.

Mathew Sforcina : FACT: Well, I can only assume that's their logic. I mean, short of this leading to some sort of ROH/WWE cross-promotion, bringing Flair back was clearly a "Give with one hand, take with the other" situation. Of course, that's not saying the ending wasn't the right one to do, just that WWE thought they had to cover their bases for some reason. And Flair's always a good standby.

2. WWE having no title changes at Judgment Day was the right call, as they have had too many title changes as of late.

Andy Critchell : FACT: WWE needs to get back to making title changes feel more special as that is what will sell PPVs in the long run. If people are enticed enough by the possibility of a title change that they will but a show then you've got something but if people are exposed to a title switch at every show then they become desensitized to it and eventually stop caring. Having a PPV with no title changes is a step in the right direction.

Kevin G. Bufton: FACT: There is a train of thought that, since professional wrestling is pre-determined, you can't really devalue a title. After all, it's not like they've ever been won in a legitimate, athletic contest. That's all well and good, in theory, but the fact remains that wrestling belts can achieve a certain level of legitimacy. Wrestling, more than any other form of entertainment, is all about perception and if one or more of its top prizes is transferred from one waist to another, month after month, then it helps no one. In the last six months (since Survivor Series, let's say) we've seen no fewer than 11 world title changes, which is a tad excessive. Having three world championships doesn't help matters, of course. After all, each competitor could hold their respective gold for six months at a time, and we'd still get a title change every other Pay-Per-View.

All that being said, I like the idea that the World Heavyweight title has been traded exclusively between Edge and Cena for the last half a year. It gives the impression that both men are at the top of their game and equally deserving of the gold. What we really need now, to shake things up, is someone who can defeat both these main eventers and prove himself to be the greatest thing on WWE television today. I wonder…

Mathew Sforcina : FACT: …but with a slight proviso. All the title matches that took place had the right ending in terms of who walked out as champ, although not for the pure "Belts Are Super Bouncy Balls" reason stated. The proviso is that Jericho winning would have been an equally good move, set up Extreme Rules nicely (Rey V Y2J, title v mask?), but that's a debatable point.

3. CM Punk should have cashed in the MITB and won the title at Judgment Day.

Andy Critchell : FICTION: Beyond the reasons for not switching a title that I noted in question #2, there is one big factor as to why Punk should not have cashed in his MITB; Umaga. If Punk had cashed in his MITB at the end of the show then it would have made the beating Umaga laid on Punk in the first match utterly meaningless. Umaga has just recently come back and they are trying to rebuild him as a monster heel. You only undercut that rebuilding process if you have someone take a beating from a monster heel only to reappear later in the show.

Kevin G. Bufton: FICTION: I'm as much of a fan of Punk as anyone, but I think he needs some focus before he goes for the belt. I think he should make the World title his top (if not only) priority and stop at nothing to get it. This does not involve throwaway matches with the likes of Kane and Umaga. What's on tap for the next Pay-Per-View, I wonder? The Great Khali? Mark Henry? Hey, why not bring Big Daddy V back? We get it, Punk isn't as big as many of the others on the roster – there's really no need to hammer that point home on two successive PPV events. It comes back to what I said about perception – if you condition the fans to think that Punk can't make his way past a career midcarder like the Big Red Machine, then why should we think that he has any chance against Edge or Cena?

Give Punk some mic time. Let him bitch about the fact that he never lost his title in the first place, let him call out Cena and Jeff Hardy and say that they've had too many shots at the title already and that the undefeated World Heavyweight champion should be the next in line. Let Cena goad him into putting his Money in the Bank briefcase on the line so that Punk has to go through him on his way to beating Edge. Let him do all these things, but for God's sake, Vince, let him win!

Mathew Sforcina : FICTION: Cashing in and losing due to Umaga's reappearance you might be able to say would have worked (if you wanted Edge and Umaga to get super mega heel heat and derail Punk a bit). But the thing is, Punk has something over Edge. Edge being paranoid and whiny is good, that's what you want out of Edge, him as champ and whiny (or him as champ and smug, either's good). There's too much mileage as Punk as MITB right now to use it up, since there's no need to swap a belt. If anything, Punk should hold off till WM26...

4. WWE renaming the Great American Bash PPV, "The Bash", is just stupid.

Andy Critchell : FICTION: While WWE is an American company, the audience is global and this move was probably made to reflect that. Plus Great American Bash is an old WCW name and WWE doesn't want to keep promoting the brand that almost destroyed them.

Kevin G. Bufton: FACT: Next…

Mathew Sforcina : FICTION: It is silly, I'll grant you that, and the name is kinda stupid, but the reasons behind it are probably, on some level, logical. As Some Guy with good taste in books pointed out, maybe selling a PPV based around American Patriotism in a time with Local buys are down and international buys are that much more important is a bad idea. There's plenty of better names they could have replaced it with (SuperBrawl says Hi.), but the logic is sound.

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5. The Hart Trilogy will not succeed because WWE will pull the plug too soon.

Mathew Sforcina : FICTION: I have two schools of thought about this, both of which disagree with that statement. The cynical side of me says they'll fail because WWE doesn't even plug them in at all, they'll become jobbers right out the box in some stupid shot at the Family and they'll never even get going. The positive side in me says that DH Smith is a second gen star, and Vince will push him as hard as he can, and if Natayla and Tyson can just hold on, they'll be fine.

Kevin G. Bufton: FICTION: Oh come on, Larry – there are so many reasons that this whole thing could fail, why did you have to choose the boring one? Consider, for instance, that none of these three performers are a proven commodity in the WWE; or that DH Smith seems to love the drugs almost as much as his old man did; or that the most interesting of the second generation Harts, Teddy, is officially persona non grata in Titan Towers; or that, at the moment, there's no sort of angle set up, save for the inevitable feud with Finlay and his Hellish offspring; or that there's another second generation stable involved in a higher profile feud on Raw…can you see where I'm going with this?

Lest we forget, they're also trading on the Hart family name, in the hopes that this will get them over in some capacity but, really, there's very little Hart in there to begin with. Sure, Smith and Natalya are grandchildren of the legendary Stu Hart, but their parents are the British Bulldog and Jim Neidhart respectively. Unless Ellie and Diana Hart did some in-ring work that they've kept hidden all these years, it's not quite the same sort of pedigree as an Orton or a Guerrero, now is it? As for Tyson Kidd, he is certainly a talented wrestler, but what exactly does he have to do with the Hart legacy, aside from banging Natalya and being trained in the dungeon (though this will, of course, be a pivotal plot point during the stables inevitable split six months down the line – should they make it that far)).

Andy Critchell : FICTION: This might happen if they were on Raw but they are on ECW and building up young stars is exactly what that brand is for. I fully believe that they will be given the chance to shine on ECW and whether they succeed or not will be up to them.

6. Mick Foley as a full out heel will work for TNA.

Mathew Sforcina : FICTION: Unless you mean in the basic "He'll still be employed by the company" meaning, in which case yes, but Foley as a heel right now, I don't see. His WWE Heel Run with Edge was good, but he had Edge and Lita there to help him and ECW to drag up the hatred. Foley just doesn't have anything to get truly mad about, does he? And Foley needs real emotion to really work as a heel, in the classic Cactus Jack style heel. Now, deluded insane heel...

Kevin G. Bufton: FICTION: Believe me, I really wanted to say FACT to this one, but I just don't see it happening. In each of his books and in every interview where Foley talks about turning heel, he trots out Michael Hayes' doctrine that a true heel has to believe that he's in the right. This is true, but the fans also have to believe that the heel believes it and, after all these years off good natured insights into his personal and professional life, I just don't think that the fans can find it in their hearts and souls to hate Mrs. Foley's baby boy any more. Let's face it, it's going to take a lot more than running down the fans or aligning with the Main Event Mafia to get the job done – even feuding with Jeff Jarrett won't make us hate him, because we know that, deep down, he's as much of a family man as Double J is. There's another problem to, in that the heels, traditionally, are in control for the majority of the match up and, if Foley's latest in-ring performances are anything to go by, he just doesn't have the gas left in his tank to do that on anything like a regular basis. Would I like to see a monster heel beat Foley senseless for twenty minutes, before he makes the big comeback and scores the win? Certainly. Would I like to see Foley as the heel is such a match? Not so much.

The only way Foley could pull this off would be if he stood up in the Impact Zone and threatened to take the TNA title back to the WWE with him but then, that would be giving free publicity to their biggest rival and not even TNA's that stupid, right?

Right?

Andy Critchell : FACT: Foley is talented and seemingly motivated. Whether he is trying to prove something to WWE, TNA, or himself is not known but he is currently working as hard as he has in years. One potential problem is Foley's love affair with the fans and his ego. Being a truly great heel is to want to get the crowd to boo you but some guys want to be the "cool heel" that people still cheer and Foley has always been the kind of guy to want to pop the crowd. If Foley can go the Jericho route then he will be a great success for TNA.

7. Samoa Joe, AJ Styles and Christopher Daniels are better off in 2009 than they were in 2005.

Mathew Sforcina : FICTION: You MAYBE can argue for Daniels, but AJ holding a meaningless title and Joe as frigging Umaga Lite? Really? Better off? REALLY?

Kevin G. Bufton: FACT: There's two ways of looking at this. On the one hand, four years ago Samoa Joe was the ROH Pure champion, AJ Styles was the NWA World Heavyweight champion and Christopher Daniels was the X Division champion. Looked at in such narrow terms, they were better off working the Indys and raising the roof in shitty little arenas around the country. However, in 2009 they are all on handsome contracts with the second biggest wrestling promotion in the country; they make regular appearances on a weekly prime time TV show that is seen from coast to coast and are each involved in significant angles within TNA. Also, as an eternal optimist, their current positioning in the promotion seems to suggest that big things are just around the corner for all three men.

Andy Critchell : FACT: This one is simple; in 2005 those guys were only really doing well when they were fighting each other and were grouped together. Now they are each having success in their own programs. That right there tells me they are better off.

8. The British Invasion stable is a great idea, as it protects Brutus Magnus while he develops, gets Doug Williams on TV and will allow the inexperienced Rob Terry to slowly develop without getting exposed

Mathew Sforcina: FACT: Of course, that assumes Brutus is physically capable of improving. You'd think he would, but sometimes you are surprised at just how incapable some people can be. Isn't that right, Miss Khan?

Kevin G. Bufton: FICTION: Put simply, Doug Williams should be a one man British Invasion, he shouldn't be babysitting a pair of rookies for fear that they will fuck up on live TV. Whether you like it or not, TNA is the de facto number two promotion in America and, as such, it should be happy to tell these guys to go back to the Indy scene for six months or so and come back when they're more seasoned performers. If you need a guy of Doug Williams' caliber to make sure that your new signees look good, then perhaps you shouldn't have signed them in the first place. Williams should be taking on the likes of Daniels, Styles and Angle in hard hitting technical matches, not babysitting a pair of greenhorns – what a waste.

I understand that TNA is constantly looking to its foreign markets and, as a Brit myself, I heartily approve of such an attitude, but we're not going to cheer guys who can't wrestle, just because they're British – we're not that dumb. Honestly. We will cheer the likes of Dynamite Kid, Doug Williams, Davey Boy Smith, William Regal, Fit Finlay and Nigel McGuiness because they are (or were) fucking awesome. Brutus Magnus and Rob Terry might be spectacular workers in a couple of years, but if you don't trust them enough to let them on TV without a chaperone, then maybe you should cut your losses early.

Andy Critchell : FACT: But only as long as they are kept looking strong. If they end up getting squashed then they go right back to being useless. BI should be made to look like a powerful and cohesive unit week after week after week or else no one will care.

Come on back next week for more of 411 Fact or Fiction: Wrestling Edition!

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Comments (36)

"WWE renaming the Great American Bash PPV, "The Bash", is just stupid."

I think everyone who points out that its not a good selling point for foriegn nations is valid, the name "The Bash" sounds lame and stupid and THAT is the only problem people have

Posted By: Guest#3985 (Guest) on May 20, 2009 at 11:36 PM

fans complain about no title changes on ppv. then they complain when all titles change hands. the wwe cant please everyone.

Posted By: jd (Guest) on May 20, 2009 at 11:36 PM

1. Fact, I think the finish was about implementing the feeling that Randy Orton is a cowardly punk and Flair was there to rescue Batista. Had Flair not come out, I am sure that the fans would have revolted.
2. Fact
3. Fiction, people were expecting it and I want Punk’s attempting to cash in storyline to go on longer, besides I don’t think Umaga deserves to feud for the World Title right now and the Punk/Umaga thing is too big to end after one match.
4. Fact. I could understand if it were taking place outside of the US but its taking place in Sacramento. Did the ACLU throw a fit about how the name was not respecting the foreigners? Does Vince know that American was dropped from the name? That seems like something he would fight.
5. Will the WWE eventually pull the plug? Yes. Despite that, will they succeed? Yes. Fact
6. Fact. the key part of a good heel is the ability to draw hate from fans, to get people to tune in to see the crap kicked out of them. I hated Mick Foley already, I am one of those people who wants to see that happen to Foley. So in my book it works.
7. Wasn’t AJ a World Champion in 2005? Yes, so that is a fiction for him. If we are being technical Joe is at a better position than he was in 2005 because on May 21st 2005, he hadn’t signed with TNA yet. Fact for Joe. Daniels is the one that could go either way. He was X-Division champion in 2005 and technically he is half X-champion now. I will go with neither for him. So, Fact for Joe, Fiction for AJ and Neither for Daniels.
8. Yes it is a great Idea, Magnus has improved. Doug Williams is good and Terry is a Hoss (I am not sure he would pass a wellness test, but its TNA so I don’t think that matters lol).

Posted By: Jeremy from Palmdale (Guest) on May 21, 2009 at 12:00 AM

Man, I miss the NWA Great American Bash.... it's sad that there is hardly any trace of the good old days left anymore.

Posted By: Guest#3663 (Guest) on May 21, 2009 at 12:01 AM

Why would you ask left wing liberals on this site about whether The Bash is a stupid name? They hate America so of course they'd rather the name be The Great Islamic Bash.

Posted By: Michael (Guest) on May 21, 2009 at 12:05 AM

1) Fiction - I think Flair is going to turn heel and be the J.J. Dillon of the Legacy. Flair can inject some much needed personality into the group while not being an active wrestler.

2) Fact - I think Jericho will eventually win the IC title though. I agree title vs. mask is where his feud with Rey is going. But Jericho said he wanted a long feud with Rey. Title vs. mask is the endgame of their feud and if they hotshotted the title to Jericho so they could have the match at Extreme Rules that the "long feud" would be about six weeks long. They'll be battling until Summerslam.

3) Fiction - As much as I love Punk I'd also love to see Edge finally have a long, meaningful title reign. SD! has a problem right now but it's the best problem you can have. There are too many great wrestlers on it that all would be great champs. Edge, Jericho and Punk are just the tip of the iceberg. I'd like to see Punk get on a roll before he wins the title. Jobbing to Kane and Umaga on consecutive PPVs isn't a roll.

4) Fact - How stupid does Vince think we are? No one is going to not buy a PPV because of its name. People buy or pass on PPVs because of who is on the card, what the scheduled matches are and if they're interested in the current storylines.

5) Fiction - Like it's been said, people are allowed to build up personalities slowly on ECW. I'm sure they'll be moved as a group during the next draft probably to SD!. The group has a good hook, a unique look and they're talented. If they fail it'll be because they couldn't connect with the fans. It's easy to bash the WWE's treatment of tag teams but this looks like a group that will get all the chances in the world.

6) Fiction - Foley said it's a chore to be a heel once you're semi-retired. He's just not that into it, so to speak. Being a heel just feels so forced at this stage of the game. If he must be a heel then just put him behind the announce table and let him cheer the bad guys.

7) Fact - They get paid more now and are more recognizable names. I fully expect both Sting and Angle to be out of the company by the end of the year which will only open up bigger programs for those three.

8) Fact - I see them as a hopefully more successful version of La Resistance and not because they're both European. They can get over a gang of nasty heels. Once that happens the most talented member, Doug Williams, can break off on his own while the other two will remain a tag team. And hey, anything that gets that ridiculous Gladiator gimmick off TV is a plus.

Posted By: Ron Mexico (Guest) on May 21, 2009 at 12:18 AM

One would think that if WWE was so worried about GAB being an old PPV title from a company that almost put them out of business, they'd have never used the title at all.

Why they don't just make up something new or use a different WCW or ECW PPV title (Heatwave?), I don't know. "The Bash" is gayness incarnate.

On a related note, I receive an email from WWE yesterday wanting me to fill out a survey about a potential submission-only PPV. Can't wait to see what that gets named.

Posted By: Steve307 (Guest) on May 21, 2009 at 12:20 AM

They should kill two birds with one stone and rename Night of Champions, Clash of the Champions

Posted By: Jeremy from Palmdale (Guest) on May 21, 2009 at 12:25 AM

"Why would you ask left wing liberals on this site about whether The Bash is a stupid name? They hate America so of course they'd rather the name be The Great Islamic Bash.

Posted By: Michael (Guest) on May 21, 2009 at 12:05 AM"

i guess this was a big topic of discussion at Michael's last Klan meeting for him to be so pissed off about it.

sieg heil, Michael, keep them there ovens burning...you never know when the Final Solution will come back en vogue.

Posted By: Darth Mortis (Guest) on May 21, 2009 at 12:29 AM

Why would you ask left wing liberals on this site about whether The Bash is a stupid name? They hate America so of course they'd rather the name be The Great Islamic Bash.

Posted By: Michael (Guest) on May 21, 2009 at 12:05 AM

Winner: "Purest Display of Idiocy In Two Sentences" Award

Posted By: left wing liberal (Guest) on May 21, 2009 at 12:53 AM

if they're renaming the "Great American Bash" to "The Bash" to help international PPV buys why wouldn't they just rename it another old WCW PPV name like "BASH at the Beach" or bring back their own PPV name like "King of the Ring"

Posted By: Guest#9101 (Guest) on May 21, 2009 at 01:21 AM

1. Paul Roma > Legacy FACT
2. Paul Roma > The entire raw roster FACT
3. Paul Roma is a better heel than Satan FACT
4. Paul Roma > RVD FACT but only if I or the zombie cyborg Chris Benoit would help.

Posted By: Steve Mongo McMicheal (Guest) on May 21, 2009 at 01:40 AM

If they must get rid of the "The Great American Bash" name, then they shouldn't call it 'The Bash' - that is just silly.

I can't be the only one who'd like to see a return for Fully Loaded, which was one of the better PPV offerings in 1999 and 2000. It has been missed.

Posted By: Quimby (Guest) on May 21, 2009 at 02:56 AM

there are some better british wrestlers than terry and magnus!
Jodie Fleich and Johnny storm anyone?
although Burchill wont be with the WWE for long!

Posted By: dan (Guest) on May 21, 2009 at 03:32 AM

1. Fiction. I wouldn't say that it was smoke and mirrors, mainly because we all pretty much knew that Orton wasn't losing the belt, and the fact that Batista is so fragile, he wouldn't make a good cahmp anyway. So rather than have Big Dave lose clean, the had him WIN dirty. If that makes sense.

2. Fact. WWE tends to hot potato the titles around, and they mean so little anymore that keeping them on the same guys was the smart thing to do. That and it would make no sense to switch to anyone of the challengers for various reasons.

3. fiction. WWE has stopped letting people do anything big in their hometown. So we knew that wouldn't happen anyway. As for if it were the right thing, not really, let it build and don't make Jeff look bad by getting nothing done before CM Punk came in and stole his thunder.

4. Fact. Mainly because they could've named it anything at all other than "The Bash". Superbrawl, Wargames, WWE goes to battle, ANYTHING but The Bash. sounds stupid and we all think so.

5. Fiction. If Vince wanted it to happen at all, it would've been done already. So the plug won't get pulled because the plug doesn't exist.

6. Fiction. The only way that it would work would be if he stayed out of the ring, but with him in the ring as CHAMP It's destined to fail. I hope that I am wrong.

7. Fiction. IN '05 Joe was the next Main Event Star with "Can't Miss" stamped on his forhead. AJ Was NWA Champ and on the run of his life. Christopher Daniels actually had a FIRST NAME, and was tearing up the ring with the most exciting division in wrestling at the time. Oh yeah and he held that division's title and it MEANT SOMETHING. I'd say that they were better then.

8. Fact. I was tettering on this one, becuase I don't see Brutus getting any better (the hype he got was Glacieresque and his matches so far make me long for Glacier) and Rob Terry is crap. But Doug Williams on my TV is a good thing, so there's where the trouble comes in. All things considered, The crap outweighs the awesome.

Posted By: The Outcast Legend The Wolf (Guest) on May 21, 2009 at 04:43 AM

"The only way Foley could pull this off would be if he stood up in the Impact Zone and threatened to take the TNA title back to the WWE with him but then, that would be giving free publicity to their biggest rival and not even TNA's that stupid, right?"

Really? You think TNA giving free publicity to WWE would help WWE? Who the fuck knows about and watches TNA while not, at the very least, KNOWING of WWE?

The Monday Night Wars are over, have been for a while. If you watch TNA, chances are you watch WWE too on a semi-consistent basis, or again at the very least, keep up on info and news.

Posted By: All Around Wrestling Fan (Guest) on May 21, 2009 at 04:48 AM

"Why would you ask left wing liberals on this site about whether The Bash is a stupid name? They hate America so of course they'd rather the name be The Great Islamic Bash.

Posted By: Michael (Guest) on May 21, 2009 at 12:05 AM"

Hope you have a successful expedition there Quint.

Posted By: Alec (Guest) on May 21, 2009 at 05:26 AM

"Oh come on, Larry – there are so many reasons that this whole thing could fail, why did you have to choose the boring one? Consider, for instance, that none of these three performers are a proven commodity in the WWE; or that DH Smith seems to love the drugs almost as much as his old man did; or that the most interesting of the second generation Harts, Teddy, is officially persona non grata in Titan Towers; or that, at the moment, there's no sort of angle set up, save for the inevitable feud with Finlay and his Hellish offspring; or that there's another second generation stable involved in a higher profile feud on Raw…can you see where I'm going with this?

Lest we forget, they're also trading on the Hart family name, in the hopes that this will get them over in some capacity but, really, there's very little Hart in there to begin with. Sure, Smith and Natalya are grandchildren of the legendary Stu Hart, but their parents are the British Bulldog and Jim Neidhart respectively. Unless Ellie and Diana Hart did some in-ring work that they've kept hidden all these years, it's not quite the same sort of pedigree as an Orton or a Guerrero, now is it? As for Tyson Kidd, he is certainly a talented wrestler, but what exactly does he have to do with the Hart legacy, aside from banging Natalya and being trained in the dungeon (though this will, of course, be a pivotal plot point during the stables inevitable split six months down the line – should they make it that far))."
Okay first question right off, did orton's mother wrestle or any of the guerreros wives? downright dumb to insinuate that because their mothers didnt wrestle and neidhart and bulldog are not harts then they cant ride on the hart's name.
in a perfect world, everybody would be a wrestler and everybody would sleep with wrestler's daughters right? wrong.
this the next best thing to a second-gen hart group. be happy. stop complainin'. about everything.

Posted By: Daryl (Guest) on May 21, 2009 at 05:33 AM

1. Paul Roma > Legacy FACT
2. Paul Roma > The entire raw roster FACT
3. Paul Roma is a better heel than Satan FACT
4. Paul Roma > RVD FACT but only if I or the zombie cyborg Chris Benoit would help.

Posted By: Steve Mongo McMicheal (Guest) on May 21, 2009 at 01:40 AM

^ This is not getting over

Posted By: Mank (Guest) on May 21, 2009 at 08:25 AM

"As for Tyson Kidd, he is certainly a talented wrestler, but what exactly does he have to do with the Hart legacy, aside from banging Natalya"
--
Tyson Kidd/TJ Wilson grew up as Teddy Hart's best friend and used to spend tons of time with the Hart family growing up. Bret wrote in his book that he basically considered TJ to be an adopted member of the Hart family long before he ever started dating Nattie Neidhart.

Posted By: Stanley (Guest) on May 21, 2009 at 08:31 AM

"Mick Foley as a full out heel will work for TNA."

Mick Foley will not work period. He was entertaining in Oklahoma and Texas in the 80s. Since then, he's shown he has no talent and tried his best to become a stunt-man and freak show.

Unfortunately, most of the wrestling world applauds that now.

Posted By: David (Guest) on May 21, 2009 at 09:14 AM

Why would you ask left wing liberals on this site about whether The Bash is a stupid name? They hate America so of course they'd rather the name be The Great Islamic Bash.

Posted By: Michael (Guest) on May 21, 2009 at 12:05 AM

Yeah, and the republicans sure did a great job of protecting you of all those nasty, evil monsters hiding underneath your bed.

Don't get me wrong, the democrats are definetly no better. It just is astonishing to me that anybody would think that Repubs or Dems give a goddamn about anybody but themselves. I guarenntee you they don't. It's all about political survival. For both sides.

Posted By: chucky (Guest) on May 21, 2009 at 10:10 AM

Am I the only one who thinks if Flair wants to be around wrestling so bad he should become Batista's manager? Turn them both heel, give Flair a stable of guys (ala Heenan) and you've got something really great started...

Posted By: M:-X (Guest) on May 21, 2009 at 10:57 AM

Bash at the Beach...LOL.

How about Independence Day? They got Judgement Day. And the connotation could feed a storyline- someone breaking away from a controlling group. Or something.

Posted By: demOcratic (Guest) on May 21, 2009 at 11:21 AM

i like how people post their own versions in the comments, as if their opinion actually meant something...its bad enough doing this shit for free, but not being good enough to be allowed to do it for free yet still wasting time on it???

Posted By: Guest#8077 (Guest) on May 21, 2009 at 12:28 PM

Okay right of the bat, where's my previous comment? I didnt use any vulgarities, why the lengthy wait?
Anyway, first question: did orton or guerreros wives wrestle? no. so what makes randy and eddie more eligible to ride on their family's name that david and natalya and tyson?
furthermore this the closest we're gonna get to a second gen stable. i for one am glad for the harts getting a second gen stable. harts vs legacy or vs colons etc.

Posted By: Daryl (Guest) on May 21, 2009 at 05:39 AM

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First of all, Tyson Kidd doesn't have any family connections. He's good friends with the Harts and, by all accounts, they treat him as part of the family, but he is not a Hart by any standards that count.

Secondly, I have no problem with wrestlers trading on their family names, but David and Natalya aren't doing that, but rather they're riding on the name of their grandfather, because THAT wrestling family is more famous.

Both wrestlers should be proud of their heritage as second generation grapplers - Jim Neidhart was okay and Davey Boy Smith was awesome under the right circumstances - but that should be enough, surely.

Randy Orton is a third generation wrestler because his father was a wrestler and his father's father was a wrestler. Same thing with Chavo Guerrero - Chavo Sr. was a wrestler and his dad, Gory, was a wrestler.

Be proud of being a second generation Smith or a second generation Neidhart. Don't feel you have to be labelled a third generation Hart.

Hope that clears it up.

Posted By: Kevin G. Bufton (Registered) on May 21, 2009 at 01:36 PM

UGH!!!

These extended FOF's are greatly affecting my A.D.D

I can't read this column anymore..

Posted By: Crummy Fitzpatrick! (Guest) on May 21, 2009 at 03:38 PM

Ric Flair will be the manager of Legacy! He turns on Batista, closes the door on his head, and becomes the modern day JJ Dillon.

Posted By: Smart Person (Guest) on May 21, 2009 at 05:20 PM

I agree with Chucky, but there were no monsters under my bed, just some TERRORISTS Yes TERRORISTS ( Sorry to use a BUSH term, the more liberal term would be and yes the Dems wanted to change attacks as MAN MADE DISASTERS)Wanted to blow up the Sears tower which I work in. See Im not a Bush fan or a Republican, but tapping terrorists is not a crime O.K.. what about the great Obama almost taking over the media and private business. He will take away more rights than Bush. What rights did he take from anyone other than suspected terrorists.Only waterboarded 3 people to get info ,1 in which saved a huge attack on L.A. Boy but if hollywood blew up by terrorists the libs and the destroyed hollywood would still blame only Bush. Again not a fan of the man, but the man got blamed for a Hurricane. Its the GREAT AMERICAN BASH. Not wanting to have a 10 year old company name that you own. Hell they took everything else from WCW even they TITle, NWO, but they wont keep GREAT AMERICAN BASH. WOW!!!!!!

Posted By: danman (Guest) on May 21, 2009 at 08:29 PM

Furthermore to use an update or whatever that theme for david was, is augmenting the fact that they hope to make david a success by linking him with bret and that his mother is a hart and dad is the the great bulldog.
notice the pink and black attire?

Posted By: Daryl (Guest) on May 21, 2009 at 08:40 PM

Fact or Fiction:

Ron Bass once had sex with a goat.

Posted By: Guest#0084 (Guest) on May 21, 2009 at 09:24 PM

To kevin, thnx for your comment, but i dont think that you understood what the author of this columns was trying to imply, that orton and the guerreros have more of a right to ride on their last name simply because the they are purely orton or guerrero.
what i am trying to say is that neidhart and bulldog were good wrestlers too and natalya and david's first runs were under the theme that the are these ppl's kids and are second gen. but when you think about them trading on the hart's name they are third gen. riding on neidhart and bulldog's pedigree clearly didnt give either natalya nor david a connection, why else would natalya be moved to ecw and david to ecw? because vince knew that he could give them a second chance, but this time riding on the facts that they are hart dungeon trained and are part of the hart family. tyson being that he is a good friend of the harts and trained in the dungeon as well.

Posted By: Daryl (Guest) on May 21, 2009 at 08:30 PM

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Hi Daryl,

I WAS the author of the column (or, at least, the snippet that you were referring to). I didn't mean to imply that Randy Orton or Chavo Guerrero had more of a right to coast no their family names just because they were third gen superstars. Hell, any superstar with a pro-wrestling legacy should just run with it - whatever gets you over, right?

All I meant was that Orton and Chavo were third-gen (with both their fathers and their fathers-fathers having been pro wrestlers), whilst, strictly speaking DH Smith and Nattie Neidhart are second gen wrestlers.

Like I said - no offence to them or their parents. Being a Brit, I was always a huge fan of Davey Boy Smith and I always had a soft spot for the Anvil too.

I take you point about their first attempts to get over as the son and daughter of Bulldog and Neidhart respectively didn't work out so well, but I don't think that was because of their lineage. DH Smith fucked up on Wellness and was sent to developmental and Natttie never really got much of a run first time round. If I recall correctly, she was teamed up with Victoria and had the usual win a match-lose a match lukewarm push that the 'E' seems to specialise in.

Again, I'm not criticising the workers in question (except for the Wellness thing) and having your name associated with the famous Hart family is far from the worst way to get over, I was just making the observation, really.

Posted By: Kevin G. Bufton (Registered) on May 22, 2009 at 07:37 AM

Thnx for the comment kevin, but when i said author i mean the above column not yours. but anyway thnx for the comment. all of it aside, natalya, tyson and david are goor wrestlers and have good in ring psychology and i think bret said they they were quite hungry to be succesful in the ring.
good luck to all three. it takes a lot of guts to be a wrestler.

Posted By: Daryl (Guest) on May 22, 2009 at 10:30 PM