411 Fact or Fiction 5.28.09: Retirements, The Franchise, WWE vs. NBA. Victoria, More

Posted by Larry Csonka on 05.28.2009

Week TWO HUNDRED and THIRTY-TWO features Ari Berenstein, Shawn S. Lealos and discussion of Shane Douglas returning to TNA!

Welcome back to another week of 411 Fact or Fiction: Wrestling Edition! This week we have TWO men stepping up to the challenge as Ari Berenstein and Shawn S. Lealos step into the 411 Arena to do battle in this week's edition of Fact or Fiction!

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Questions were sent out Monday morning.

Participants were told to expect WWE and TNA related questions.

If you would like to appear in the column, shoot me an email!


1. The WWE and NBA both look bad coming out of last week's "WWE vs. NBA" battle.

Ari Berenstein: FICTION: If this statement had read "WWE and E. Stan Kroenke look bad after last week's WWE vs. NBA battle" then I would have a different answer. After the debacle of a show on Monday which featured a horrendous opening skit, horrible impersonators, McMahon being portrayed as the good guy and a joke of a main event where the wrestlers wore basketball jerseys (shades of Raw BOWL!), it can be said for sure that WWE looks bad. What's worse is that WWE made itself out to be hypocrite city when they backed off of viable solutions to stay in Denver or to move the show to nearby Colorado Springs. Instead they cancelled Raw AND Smackdown to do a double-shot in Los Angeles. By canceling the Smackdown tapings the week of the event, they showed themselves to be no better than Stan Kroenke himself. The NBA stayed above the fray by washing their hands of the situation and not lowering themselves to respond to Vince McMahon's petulant crybaby theatrics. The only thing you could say is that perhaps they could have taken a more active hand in negotiating a compromise between the two sides, or perhaps forced a last minute switch of home and away games between the venues. They=2 0weren't obligated to do so and therefore I can't fault them for what they did or didn't do. Meanwhile, McMahon's actions show WWE very willingly at fault for canceling the shows. They made a booking snafu and turned it into something far more outlandish, which is typical of WWE's handling of public relations.

Shawn S. Lealos: FICTION: The only person looking bad coming off this ordeal originally was Kroenke Sports Enterprise who had plenty of time to fix this situation before it escalated to this point. For the Nugget's owner to wait until the week before the event was irresponsible and bad business. What he did was bad business and he deserved to lose the event. For his corporation to try to force the WWE to move to Sunday for a pre-recorded RAW meant he knew nothing about the show so I am sure his treatment by Vince McMahan following the incident probably took him by surprise.

To put it in a way everyone can understand, let's say you reserve a room for a weekend getaway. You ask off from work and have everything planned and ready to go. Then just days before the trip, the hotel calls and says they gave your room to someone else but you can come the two days before your reservations instead. This of course wouldn't work because you already had everything planned for those days. That is what KSE did to the WWE. They can't expect a bad business move like that not to backfire. I would never use that hotel again and the WWE had every right to move somewhere else.

Forget about the entire spin cycle and free publicity from McMahan, the fact of the matter is the WWE is a multimillion dollar industry and business agreements should be upheld and adhered to because, forget whether you are a wrestling fan or not, it is a business. Kroenke Sport's Enterprise gave the WWE one week to make a decision and McMahan chose to go live instead of remaining in Denver and prerecording the event on Sunday night. Once again, this was a business move and if KSE was so irresponsible in their notification they should expect no less.

The NBA does not look bad coming out of this, but KSE looks real bad, especially from a business standpoint. The WWE looked great coming out of the situation regardless of McMahan's posturing. Now, McMahan milked the publicity to the point of making fun of Kroenke on RAW Monday, which is juvenile but it's just Vince being Vince.

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2. TNA bringing in Lisa Marie (Victoria) is a good move to help solidify the Knockouts Division.

Ari Berenstein: FACT: Yes, Victoria is another "WWE Castoff", but she is one who is actually still in the prime of her career. Victoria is incredibly talented in the ring and can play either a face or a heel effectively depending on the need and the situation. She also has no problem doing "wacky" segments, as seen b y her willingness to dress up as a Sumo wrestler on various Halloween-themed segments. In other words, she is an all-around player, of which TNA can use as many wrestlers as possible who are willing to come to work for them. Victoria will easily slide in against the Beautiful People, and of course there is always the dream match of sorts against Awesome Kong which will take place in the near future.

Shawn S. Lealos: FACT: Victoria can wrestle, but spent the last few years in the WWE jobbing to no-talent Divas hired only for their looks. In her final match before retiring from the WWE, she was jobbed once again to a lesser wrestler in Michelle McCool. The WWE is not the place for women wrestlers who don't look like blonde bimbos. Victoria can defiantly match up to the Knockouts and is a welcome addition. Add her to the mix of Awesome Kong, Daffney, and a much-improved Angelina Love, as well as mainstays such as ODB and Taylor Wilde and the Knockout division is healthy and competitive. I would like her thrown into a feud with Daffney based on her former relationship with Stevie Richards, where we could have some awesome matches but it looks like she is going straight for the Beautiful People.

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3. Legacy (Rhodes and DiBiase) have been booked poorly thus far.

Ari Berenstein: FICTION: I'm not sure why anyone would suggest this aside from perhaps the idea that because they don't possess the WWE Unified Tag Team Titles that they aren't "the dominant" team on Raw. However, that reason wouldn't mean they are "poorly" booked. I think that their use as Randy Orton's backup has been very reasonable—they look strong when they need to and they take the hits for their leader when they need to do so. In addition, both Rhodes and DiBiase have been given plenty of opportunity to do promo work and build on their characters and motivations. They have been given plenty of exposure and work the top feuds on Raw...that's a pretty good deal in my book.

Shawn S. Lealos: FACT: The problem is not that they are flunkies for Randy Orton, it is the fact they can't win without a lot of luck on their side. They lose handicap matches where they have the advantage. They can't beat anyone who is above the mid card. Their tag team title reign was cut short with the forming of Legacy and they don't even use their real name - Priceless - anymore. I don't have a problem with young guys being held down until they are ready to shine and it is even better when it is second-generation superstars being slowed. But Rhodes has shown miles of improvement since he debuted and still can't catch a break. I have heard DiBiase talk and he could be great on the mic but only Randy Orton is allowed to speak. What made The Four Horsemen great was the fact that every one of them took turns cutting promos and they all worked as competent competitors in the ring. With Legacy we have Randy Orton as the dominant force and Rhodes & Dibiase as the two who get their butts kicked in his place. It is a booking that builds one man at the expense of the others. In that area, Priceless is stagnating and not growing at all as respectable wresters.

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4. TNA bringing in Shane Douglas and Raven is not a good idea.

Ari Berenstein: FACT: Not for the obvious reason--that more outside names will only push down the "TNA Homegrown" stars such as Samoa Joe, AJ Styles and Christopher Daniels. No, that doesn't seem to be the case this time. I'm referring more to their age, in-ring ability and judging from the TNA spoilers for this week, their apparent poor use in storylines. Raven and Douglas are older and less spry and neither have ever been the best in-ring athletes of their day. My main problem is how they will be used—Douglas attacking Daniels for seemingly no clear reason and Raven once again being teamed up with Stevie Richards to once again feud with Abyss. How many times do we need to see Stevie Richards and Raven paired together?

Shawn S. Lealos: FICTION: The last time Shane Douglas was in TNA he was splitting time as an announcer and as manager of The Naturals. I loved his role as manager of The Naturals and think he would be a great mouthpiece for any of the young talent on the roster. I know a lot of people who don't like Douglas' promo work but I do and think, as a manager, he can be great. It looks like he is going to wrestle again and that would make my answer fact if not for Raven.

I am guess Raven is being brought in for the Stevie Richards/Abyss feud since he has a strong history with both men. Even more so than Douglas, Raven is a natural on the mic and can only do wonders if given the chance to talk for someone. Last time I saw him, medical problems caused his weight to balloon to dangerous levels but if he has gotten past that, I wouldn't mind seeing him in the ring again. If they are bringing him in as the voice in Samoa Joe's ear, I could dig that as well, but it looks like he is joining up with Stevie. Let Raven do what Raven does and I'll be happy to see him.

People will start to bitch about holding the young stars down and taking time away from them. I call bullshit. If Shane's first feud is against Chris Daniels, there is no way he will go over The Fallen Angel and it will give Daniels a win over a quality veteran. As for Raven, simply sticking him into the Abyss/Stevie/Daffney situation won't hurt anyone. No one is going to get buried because they bring these guys back.

2 for 4


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5. Ric Flair should not wrestle ever again.

Shawn S. Lealos: FACT: He is a legend and one of the best in ring storytellers to ever wrestle. But watching him towards the end of his career was sad. You would pop for him because of what he had done in the sport, not because of what he was doing in the ring at that time. If Ric is so big on getting back into the ring, let him manage someone. Problem there is what Jim Cornette mentioned about male managers not being accepted anymore. I think it might work with Flair, but I don't want to see him as the manager that flops around every time he gets touched. Let Flair manage Batista, talk for the big man and be a tough ringside manager. He could even then get involved in matches and take some punishment and give some back. I could easily get behind that. Just no more wrestling against capable talent. It makes him and his opponents both look bad.

Ari Berenstein: FACT: As I said in my column last week, I am not one to ever say to someone "you can't do this"…but I will say "you should not do this". Ric Flair should not be wrestling and it's not only about his age and how he should value his retirement and right now he has walked away with his health and mental faculties intact. No, Flair should not wrestle again because he and Shawn Michaels worked a fantastic finale at Wrestlemania XXIV, one that is worthy of being immortalized as a part of wrestling history. Flair was given the greatest send-off of any wrestler ever in WWE the following night on Raw, one that should live on in the hearts and minds of every wrestling fan of every age. Flair wrestling again, whether it's against Randy Orton, Triple H or Batista only diminishes the purity and special qualities of those moments. However, just because I don't want it to happen, doesn't mean I wouldn't watch his return. He is after all, Ric Flair.

3 for 5


6. Judging by what happened at Sacrifice, you are looking forward to TNA's Slammiversary PPV.

Shawn S. Lealos: FACT: First, Sting pinning Kurt Angle in the Sacrifice main event was the most boring result that was possible. Give Foley control of the Main Even Mafia or full control of TNA. Remove Jarrett from the picture. Force Sting to retire. But Sting taking over is really anticlimactic. However, more happened that has me excited. Samoa Joe remained undefeated at Sacrifice and A.J. Styles finally won his first major match at a Sacrifice pay-per-view, and both men should be heading into Slammiversary on a role, ending their feuds by beating the Main Event Mafia. The Mafia comes out of Sacrifice losing every match they were involved in, with the exception of Sting, and he pinned a fellow member. The next month will be interesting with the Mafia reeling from their losses and we'll see how the King of the Mountain shapes up. Throw Styles and Joe into the match with Foley, Angle, Sting and Jarrett and we have a huge opportunity for the young guys to finally claw their way back to the top. Plus, we have either a Team 3D vs. Beer Money match, or if they give that away on free TV, maybe a three-way with The British Invasion as well. Eric Young is turning bad and I hope he takes the X-Division title off Suicide. Add in the MCMG, a Chris Daniels vs. Shane Douglas match and a blood feud match with Abyss and it should be a decent pay-per-view.

Ari Berenstein: FICTION: I was utterly baffled by the main event of Sacrifice, given that I thought the title was on the line for everyone, not just if Foley was pinned. So you mean to tell me that wrestlers were willing to give up something dear to them, like say, their CAREER, for three spots in that match, when they could have just as well waited one month to enter a match with six open slots where you only had to win a qualifying match? Does that make any logical sense? No, of course not, and that is TNA in a nutshell…never making any logical sense. The Motor City Machine Guns / Suicide & Daniels story that was beginning to be intriguing but is being put on the backburner and will go away without a resolution, as many angles usually do in TNA. The other major angles such as Beer Money vs. Team 3-D or the Beautiful People ruling the Knockouts division, really don't hold my interest and wouldn't get me to purchase their Pay Per View product. I'm sure someone will enjoy those matches though, so good on them.

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7. The Undertaker or Shawn Michaels will retire at WrestleMania XXVI.

Shawn S. Lealos: FICTION: Undertaker is nowhere near ready to retire. I think as long as he can perform at a respectable level, and can take all the time off he wants, he isn't going anywhere. Shawn Michaels, on the other hand, seems to be nearing his breaking point. I don't think he will retire next year though because he can still go and, like Undertaker, can take all the time off he wants to recuperate. I don't think Undertaker will ever lose at Wrestlemania and, if he ever gets his streak snapped he won't retire following a loss. Unless one of the men suffers a major injury, don't look to see them hang it up just yet.

Ari Berenstein: FACT: Geez…ask a tough question. I honestly don't know for sure, but I'd believe the scuttlebutt we heard before Mania 25 that Michaels felt he had a year left and was aiming to retire the next year at Mania 26. Both guys are receiving lengthy breaks right now, but I actually believe Taker might have more of a desire to stick around a few years longer. Michaels has kids who are getting to the age where they want to be with their father…and I believe Michaels will want to spend time with them before they become teenagers and don't want to hang around their father. So Michaels hangs up the boots at Mania 26…but of course, no wrestlers truly retire forever, so expect him back for special appearances after that as well.

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8. Tommy Dreamer will NOT win the ECW Title before his contract expires.

Shawn S. Lealos: FACT: No way they take the title off Christian just to give Dreamer one more run. If Jack Swagger was still champion, they might do it. If they make a three-way match between Christian, Swagger and Dreamer maybe they let Dreamer get a cheap pin for his one last ECW title but then I see him losing it almost immediately. But to take it off Christian would hurt his credibility and do no one but Dreamer any favors.

Ari Berenstein: FACT: Simply put, Tommy Dreamer's role in wrestling has always been the underdog hero who falls just short of the major "W" but doesn't stop trying because he's got too much heart and guts to quit. Dreamer has gone on record saying he didn't even want to win the original ECW Heavyweight Title back in the day. So no big "going away present" for Dreamer by way of becoming the ECW Champion on his way out. Dreamer will go out the way he always go out, in style, with his shoulders on the mat.

4 for 8

Come on back next week for more of 411 Fact or Fiction: Wrestling Edition!